Is it time to cull the welfare state?

randylonghorn

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

The weakest in society is the working man who is getting shafted in each hole, without a drop of lub to ease his discomfort.

No, I'm sorry, that's not true, and I say that as a working man who can certainly feel the soreness in his hole.

Those who had jobs two years ago, however, and who are now on the dole because the unholy trinity of banks, developers and their PR company, Fianna Fail, have screwed them over, and who would gladly step into my shoes, drop trou and bend over ... I know it, which is why I don't spend all my time moaning about paycuts and increased taxes / levies, like some in this country.

They are in a much weaker position than I am, usually through no fault of their own.

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Upon graduating, you get a provision degree. Upon repaying your loan, you get a full degree.

What the hell is a provisional degree?

I can see the scenario now:

Job interview:

"So, Ms. SoAndSo, do you have a degree?"

"Well, I've completed my course, but no, I don't actually have a degree. I have to pay off my loan before I get my degree. That's one reason I need a job."

"I'm sorry, Ms. SoAndSo, this position requires you to have a degree, we can't employ you".

It's the old Equity nutsqueeze all over again ... you couldn't be an actor if you didn't have an Equity card; you couldn't get an Equity card unless you could demonstrate that you had been employed as an actor.

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Ask and you shall receive.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_deb_ext_percap-economy-debt-external-per-capita

This was during the "good times".

I have no reluctance in saying that that chart, if even remotely accurate, is horrifying.

To return to your initial starting-point however ... the welfare system. I have no problem with sensible reform. I'm sure there are scroungers and dole-cheats out there, there always have been. But the majority of the people on the dole queue these days are people who have worked hard for 10 / 20 / 30 years, paid their taxes and their stamps, and suddenly find themselves standing bewildered in a dole queue wondering what the hell happened.

There but for the grace of (insert your personal deity here) go I. Or you.

Next year it might be me. Or you.

Yes, the welfare bill is horrendous. If steps can be taken to reduce it without crucifying those people, I'm all for it. But I'm not on board for crucifying them.

Someone above mentioned the corporate welfare state. If by that they meant the salaries and benefits and pensions of the banking elite, which continue to flow unabated, untroubled by government objections despite the fact that the same government (and therefore us, the taxpayers) are pouring billions into said bankers black holes ... then yes, I could be tempted to a little crucifixion there all right!

__________

I would actually be in favour of the voucher system previously mentioned for dole recipients. But the question of which supermarket to award the contract to, and those raising their prices and creating unfair competition would potentially be an issue.

An alternative would be to supply the people directly with basic necessities sourced directly from the manufacturers. E.g. you go to the dole office each week and collect 1 loaf of bread, 2.5kg bag of potatoes, 500g butter, 1 pack of 4 toilet rolls, etc. Then maybe a small treat (something different) each week like a box of pringles one week, a packet of bourbon creams the next week, and so on.

Xluna

It was unbridled capitalistic greed which screwed the country to begin with "More in common with Boston then Berlin". So no,of course not. What needs to be culled is the old boys club(the dail),parish politics and an out of date constitution which some people seem to worship. Oh, and a viable alternative to F.F and F.G, two opposing cheeks of the same arse.

Xluna

__________ wrote: »

I would actually be in favour of the voucher system previously mentioned for dole recipients. But the question of which supermarket to award the contract to, and those raising their prices and creating unfair competition would potentially be an issue.

An alternative would be to supply the people directly with basic necessities sourced directly from the manufacturers. E.g. you go to the dole office each week and collect 1 loaf of bread, 2.5kg bag of potatoes, 500g butter, 1 pack of 4 toilet rolls, etc. Then maybe a small treat (something different) each week like a box of pringles one week, a packet of bourbon creams the next week, and so on.

Lets hope you never get the sack,eh?

__________

__________ wrote: »

I would actually be in favour of the voucher system previously mentioned for dole recipients. But the question of which supermarket to award the contract to, and those raising their prices and creating unfair competition would potentially be an issue.

An alternative would be to supply the people directly with basic necessities sourced directly from the manufacturers. E.g. you go to the dole office each week and collect 1 loaf of bread, 2.5kg bag of potatoes, 500g butter, 1 pack of 4 toilet rolls, etc. Then maybe a small treat (something different) each week like a box of pringles one week, a packet of bourbon creams the next week, and so on.

I've tried to write a few responses but the emoticon says it all... > :rolleyes:

moonpurple

let the culling begin

cull the senate
the army equestrian school
the army overseas project
the ability of any salaried public office holder from also being paid any other parallel amount
cull the amount paid to hospital consultants who could not be bothered checking to see if ordinary people's x-rays might be showing fatal conditions

Xluna

moonpurple wrote: »

let the culling begin

cull the senate
the army equestrian school
the army overseas project
the ability of any salaried public office holder from also being paid any other parallel amount
cull the amount paid to hospital consultants who could not be bothered checking to see if ordinary people's x-rays might be showing fatal conditions

Imagine how much money would be made if the church was taxed,like in Germany.

smellslikeshoes

__________ wrote: »

I would actually be in favour of the voucher system previously mentioned for dole recipients. But the question of which supermarket to award the contract to, and those raising their prices and creating unfair competition would potentially be an issue.

An alternative would be to supply the people directly with basic necessities sourced directly from the manufacturers. E.g. you go to the dole office each week and collect 1 loaf of bread, 2.5kg bag of potatoes, 500g butter, 1 pack of 4 toilet rolls, etc. Then maybe a small treat (something different) each week like a box of pringles one week, a packet of bourbon creams the next week, and so on.

Ah here if you're going to suggest an alternative to the dole at least suggest a realistic alternative. Going to the dole office to collect your loaf of bread is on a different planet to be honest. If a voucher system was going to be taken seriously there would have to be no contracts given, go into any shop and exchange your vouchers for food. Take a look at the food stamp program in the US for a workable example of it.

pickarooney

A good oul' war should sort us out. Maybe against New Zealand. Send the dole-monkeys off to get culled* and give the widows jobs sewing weapons for the... well, we'd take their oil and be rich, or their sheep... this always works in those games. Literacy! that's it, we need to invent literacy and build a few more Wonders of the World.




*yswidt? the kiwi accent thing? clever, right? screw you, come up with something better

hooradiation

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

I will type up my ten point plan before the end of this evening.

Come on, where the hell is it?

Or is it just another thread with un-sourced figures and the same boilerplate talking points like every other one of these cunting threads?

stovelid

A good start would be if the people who detest social welfare could sign an affadavit saying they will never comproimise their principles by drawing it down, not matter what their personal circumstances are.

Truley

__________ wrote: »

I would actually be in favour of the voucher system previously mentioned for dole recipients. But the question of which supermarket to award the contract to, and those raising their prices and creating unfair competition would potentially be an issue.

An alternative would be to supply the people directly with basic necessities sourced directly from the manufacturers. E.g. you go to the dole office each week and collect 1 loaf of bread, 2.5kg bag of potatoes, 500g butter, 1 pack of 4 toilet rolls, etc. Then maybe a small treat (something different) each week like a box of pringles one week, a packet of bourbon creams the next week, and so on.

How about 'welfare recipient' tatooed across their foreheads? Oooh oooh we could have special communal areas for them to hang out! Away from the rest of us 'normies' as we will be known. And I suppose whe should have some sort of committee who makes the decisions on what 'treats' they are allowed have that week. A packet of rich tea this week I think ...

IrishManSaipan

hooradiation wrote: »

Come on, where the hell is it?

Or is it just another thread with un-sourced figures and the same boilerplate talking points like every other one of these cunting threads?

You are a very angry person, young hoor. I will post it up in due course.

DrumSteve

god forbid any of you should lose your jobs and draw the dole. Not everyone that is on it is a scrounger. a lot of good people were forced into this situation by forces outside their control.

IrishManSaipan

DrumSteve wrote: »

god forbid any of you should lose your jobs and draw the dole. Not everyone that is on it is a scrounger. a lot of good people were forced into this situation by forces outside their control.

This isnt an "all dolers are scroungers thread". This is a how the phuc can we continue to pay the welfare bill thread.

orourkeda

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

I would like to start a discussion on the viability of the Irish welfare state if I may.

I believe as a country, we have two choices. Either enter debt enslavement for eternity or stand on our own two feet. The country is borrowing 500 million each and every week, just to keep the show on the road. The Department of Finance predicts it will take in 34 billion euro in tax revenue. My calculator says it wont break 29. This is simply unsustainable.

The sense of entitlement in this country is unbelievable. From farmers to bankers. From students to politicians. They seem to think the state is their personal cash cow.Is it time to cull the welfare state? If not, how do we continue to pay for it?

Firstly, I think we can safely assume that you are not unemployed.

Secondly, what are are unemployed people supposed to live on and what have they been paying their taxes for.

Genuine people dont choose unemployment and fraudsters should be prosecuted. simple. How is someone supposed to stand on their own two feet if they have nothing to go to.

It's not much of a choice. We either balance the books or leave almost half a million people on the verge of homelessness or bankruptcy.

dvpower

__________ wrote: »

I would actually be in favour of the voucher system previously mentioned for dole recipients. But the question of which supermarket to award the contract to, and those raising their prices and creating unfair competition would potentially be an issue.

An alternative would be to supply the people directly with basic necessities sourced directly from the manufacturers. E.g. you go to the dole office each week and collect 1 loaf of bread, 2.5kg bag of potatoes, 500g butter, 1 pack of 4 toilet rolls, etc. Then maybe a small treat (something different) each week like a box of pringles one week, a packet of bourbon creams the next week, and so on.

Hands up. Whose for soup kitchens and workhouses?

DrumSteve

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

This isnt an "all dolers are scroungers thread". This is a how the phuc can we continue to pay the welfare bill thread.

having wasted 10 minutes of my life reading this thread i can see that the usual ****e was being bandied about including at 1 stage the need for a helicopter to hover outside and take them all out... i mean wtf?

I do agree with the initial sentiment though. The welfare situation needs to be looked at but in a way that isn't gonna ruin the the (non)working class.

dvpower

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Is it time to cull the welfare state? If not, how do we continue to pay for it?

This always gets reduced to cutting payments for people on the dole.

Would people who advocate this also advocate cuts to other social welfate benefits like the state pension, child benefit, free travel for pensioners...

How about cutting other state provided benefits like free education, the health service...

While we're at it, should we cut tax reliefs like the PAYE credit?

stovelid

Also, the assumption that welfare needs to be looked at assumes that we pay taxes to directly beneift ourselves, rather than toward soceity in general. This doesn't take into account that many other taxpayers (like myself) don't actually mind paying for a welfare system.

Taking the point further, other citizens then have the right to take umbrage with their taxes being spent on things that opponents of the welfare system feel are necessary.

Dublin Hibby

FFS, anyone out there with an original thought. Do you really believe that the cost of the welfare state is responsible for the keek we find ourselves in.

Dont believe the spin, 54 billion put aside for nammby pammby NAMA, somewhere in the region of a further 300 billion in toxic debt hiding just over the horizon.

The govement want the moral majority to look upon welfare claimants and public sector workers as spongers, who are responsible in some way for the feckin mess they created.

Goverment minister retires due to ill health payoff :

70,000 annual ministerial pension
45,000 annual TD pension
150,00 one off lump sum

FFS, cut these bastards pay and conditions before anything else

ricman

FOR a couple that has 2 kids the payment is too high,theres no point in working ,cos you get more on welfare,the payment should be 26k max if you have 2 kids.
AND theres people coming over here ,from england once a month collecting the dole.There needs to be more checks on rent allowance ,its too easy to defraud the system
THE CIVIL SERVICE PENSION is a form of welfare,the pensions are too high, there should be a law ,you can claim 1 pension thats it.
THE government is borrowing billions to pay out 4 pensions, its crazy economics.
THE pension system was designed when tax revenue was twice what it is now, ie 20billion, versus 50billion.
THERE should be a limit of 60k on anyone s pension from the government.

IrishManSaipan

stovelid wrote: »

Also, the assumption that welfare needs to be looked at assumes that you apportion your taxes to directly beneift yourself whch doesn't take into account that other taxpayers (like myself) don't mind paying for a welfare system.

Whether or not you mind your taxes being spent on welfare is irrelevant. The state is in financial ruin. It cannot afford to continue to pay the welfare bill.

See my signature. Add about 3.8 billion euro to that by the end of the year in form of interest payments. Thats about a grand interest on every man, woman and child. A millstone around their necks for ever.

Welcome to eternal debt enslavement.

dvpower

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

FFS, anyone out there with an original thought.

I think we're about to hear one:)

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

Do you really believe that the cost of the welfare state is responsible for the keek we find ourselves in.

Its not 'responsible', but it is a major element of current expenditure and so a major element of our deficit

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

Dont believe the spin, 54 billion put aside for nammby pammby NAMA, somewhere in the region of a further 300 billion in toxic debt hiding just over the horizon.

Yes. That's also a big problem
(where is that original thought)

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

The govement want the moral majority to look upon welfare claimants and public sector workers as spongers, who are responsible in some way for the feckin mess they created.

That's more of a rant than an original thought.

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

Goverment minister retires due to ill health payoff :

70,000 annual ministerial pension
45,000 annual TD pension
150,00 one off lump sum

FFS, cut these bastards pay and conditions before anything else

What? Thats it?
I thought we were going to get something original and it turned out to be just another daft rant against an ex-minister's payoff.

(Hint: Don't start your post with an insult, if you've got nothing much to add yourself.)

Dublin Hibby

DV, thanks for that. The idea is, stop believing the bull****.

Millicent

I actually have an idea for this thread. Hope it's on topic Irishman... :P

There is a mass of unfinished and unsold houses in this country, lying empty because the companies who were building them (and who helped the arse fall out of the market to begin with the unsustainable development) have gone belly up. A large contributor to the social welfare bill is rent allowance. Why not have the government buy up these vacant and finished properties at a greatly reduced cost, employ some of the unemployed construction workers to finish them (which would help fuel the economy as increased wage promotes increased spending) and clear some of the backlog of the council list? They could give these to rent allowance recipients at a low rate with the option to buy out the property when the market picks up and people get back on their feet.

This way, the government saves some of the cost of rent allowance and the bust companies can go some way to paying off their debts. Just an idea.

Elenxor

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

I would like to start a discussion on the viability of the Irish welfare state if I may.

I believe as a country, we have two choices. Either enter debt enslavement for eternity or stand on our own two feet. The country is borrowing 500 million each and every week, just to keep the show on the road. The Department of Finance predicts it will take in 34 billion euro in tax revenue. My calculator says it wont break 29. This is simply unsustainable.

The sense of entitlement in this country is unbelievable. From farmers to bankers. From students to politicians. They seem to think the state is their personal cash cow.Is it time to cull the welfare state? If not, how do we continue to pay for it?

How many Investment Bankers, Property Developers, TD's Ect., were on Welfare while this Country was being bankrupted?
None!!!! But blame the poor..why not! We don't have the B***s to to say it like it is!!!

Dublin Hibby

DV, i will start my posts as i see fit. It will provide you with the opportunity to cut them up and make yourself look clever. Your ideas for a fair and equal response to the current difficulties are?

When the money was in abundance the profits were "privatised", marginalised communities saw little or nothing of the Celtic tiger.

Now the country is bankrupt, the debt has been "nationalised"

The moral test of government is how it treats those who
are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight
of life, the aged; and those in the shadows of life, the sick, the
needy and the handicapped." Hubert H. Humphrey.

Instead our leaders blame and shame these sections of society.

Not much leadership being shown in relation to the above, instead we begin a process of blame and death by a thousand cuts. Ordinary citizens are following the spin and turning on each other, just what the Grunts in power want.

ScissorPaperRock

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Whether or not you mind your taxes being spent on welfare is irrelevant. The state is in financial ruin. It cannot afford to continue to pay the welfare bill.

See my signature. Add about 3.8 billion euro to that by the end of the year in form of interest payments. Thats about a grand interest on every man, woman and child. A millstone around their necks for ever.

Welcome to eternal debt enslavement.

We have no choice but to pay the social welfare. We need people to keep spending, and we need to avoid creating further class division.


To cover the bill we need to create jobs. I already said this but you haven't addressed it. Creating jobs means less people who require social welfare, and more revenue to be able to afford it. So more revenue is generated, and there are less people to hand it out to. Win win.

Kent Brockman

Defined benefit pensions are no longer viable. The company I work for was bought out a few years ago and this was the first thing that was changed, to defined contribution.
We fought tooth and nail to no avail. Makes sense though, money cnt be made appear from thin air and its our children and grandchildren who will carry the massive burden of trying to provide for those on defined benefit pensions.

(maybe this could be one of your 10 points? )