Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

monument

It's worth pointing out...

Nothing has changed.

They are still reviewing the options and, as the Minister already said recently, he has added a fourth option. The above article is about Irish Rail being told to review that fourth option, the sureness of the headline and intro do not quite match the rest of the article.

Sponge Bob

He could do an Airport spur and quad track from Fairview to Clongriffin ...sort of DU 'enabling' works like

mgmt

mgmt wrote: »

Found the report CIÉ commissioned into this option (and many other options), if anyones interested.


Dublin Suburban Rail Strategic Review - ARUP Report - From 2000:
http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/assets/files/downloads/Environmental_Impact_Statement-EIS_and_Environmental_Impact_Statement_Non-Technical_Summary-NTS/Volume_4%E2%80%93EIS_Appendices/02_Background/A2.1.pdf (7mb)

The above link I posted provides Irish Rail drawings on the possibilities of spurs to Dublin Airport, either from the Maynooth or the Northern Line. The report goes on to mention extensions on to Swords and Donabate.

(Page 72 onwards on the PDF)

Cool Mo D

Aard wrote: »

First Metro West, now this. We need rapid transit in the city centre, not on the outskirts. At the very least, Dart Underground should be built before any Airport spur.

I completely agree. The best part of Metro North (and DART underground) is a backbone fast rapid transit link through the city centre, which can be used by other Luas and metro services in future.

D.L.R.

Aard wrote: »

First Metro West, now this. We need rapid transit in the city centre, not on the outskirts. At the very least, Dart Underground should be built before any Airport spur.

+1. I don't think our "one and only rail project" should be this airport spur.

At this stage all resources should, imo, be funnelled towards Dart Underground to ensure its progress, however long that takes.

Metro North.. well it might have had a better chance if the prev govt/RPA had planned ahead just a little. Temporary this, upgradeable that. What a crock. Part of the reason for their implosion, imo.

DU was and still is the best project on the table.

Mods, how about a poll?

markpb

D.L.R. wrote: »

Metro North.. well it might have had a better chance if the prev govt/RPA had planned ahead just a little. Temporary this, upgradeable that. What a crock. Part of the reason for their implosion, imo.

What are you talking about? What was temporary or upgradable?

mgmt

markpb wrote: »

What are you talking about? What was temporary or upgradable?

Spencer Dock was/is temporary.

markpb

mgmt wrote: »

Spencer Dock was/is temporary.

Not exactly. The current Irish Rail Docklands station is temporary and was meant to be replaced by an underground station at Spencer Dock when the Interconnector was built. Nothing about the Metro North plan was temporary AFAIK.

D.L.R.

markpb wrote: »

What are you talking about? What was temporary or upgradable?

The green line is "upgradable to metro" in FF-speak, but it is more likely a permanent luas line due to cost/disruption of that "upgrade".

Same with docklands station. Its not temporary, nor was it ever, realistically, temporary. Again, FF spin.

In other words

"We'll build the cheap thing, and sure it'll be upgradeable to the better thing, one day"

Load of crap. Good riddance.

markpb

D.L.R. wrote: »

The green line is "upgradable to metro" in FF-speak, but it is more likely a permanent luas line due to cost/disruption of that "upgrade".

Same with docklands station. Its not temporary, nor was it ever, realistically, temporary. Again, FF spin.

In other words

"We'll build the cheap thing, and sure it'll be upgradeable to the better thing, one day"

Load of crap. Good riddance.

What on earth are you talking about? You said

Metro North.. well it might have had a better chance if the prev govt/RPA had planned ahead just a little. Temporary this, upgradeable that. What a crock. Part of the reason for their implosion, imo.

Luas Green is not Metro North.
Spencer Dock is not Metro North.
Nothing about Metro North was temporary or upgradeable.

Am I missing something obvious?

Brian CivilEng

While building a DART spur would suit me personally, I live in Raheny and currently have to head into town to get to the airport, I can't help but believe that if a 15 minute frequency is to be achieved it will make the whole Northern line too congested and increase journey times. At this point I'd say the do nothing scenario is better than building the DART spur. DART spur plus DU instead of Metro North I'd accept, not this.

Still, the real reason for this option is to send the whole thing back to the drawing board, keep things quiet for another three years while appraisal and prelim designs are carried out.

Transport may the priority in my eyes, but it the grand schemes of things it is not a big deal. I don't think there'll be much votes lost by cancelling a load of projects in Dublin. We'll just motor on in mediocrity.

D.L.R.

markpb wrote: »

What on earth are you talking about? You said

Luas Green is not Metro North.
Spencer Dock is not Metro North.
Nothing about Metro North was temporary or upgradeable.

Am I missing something obvious?

Yes. MN and Green Line could've been two phases of the one line. As it is, we got a hybrid tram/metro green line. The cheapo option. The legacy is a messy interchange at SSG, which harms MN's business case.

Docklands is another example of govt building the cheap option and projecting into an integrated fantasy future. Not RPA granted, but sure they were all limbs of the same mutant.

Aard

There's no reason why we can't have huge projects like MN, DU, Airport spur, and any number of "fantasy" projects like Finglas Metro, Kimmage Metro, 4-trackings and whatnot in a PLAN. Sure, we won't be able to afford them all in one go, but at least we will know what's next on the list and what order to achieve them in. We'll know where to densify for the future, and where to avoid building altogether.

This would be in contrast to the current method. Swords-Bray metro: watered down into Green line + MN. Town-Blanch-Tallaght metro: watered down into BXD + Metro West. Tallaght-Town metro: watered down into non-segregated Red line. Why couldn't we just hold out and do each of them properly? Greed? Regional balance? Impatience? Ah sure it'll do?

I'm constantly amazed how other cities can build metro lines often in two seperate pieces, then join them under the city centre. If that happened here, they'd just stop and give them different names, saying that that was the plan all along.

It's pathetic: make a plan and stick to it!

MN started off as a gift to the Northside to make up for the Luas lines on the Southside. They sent it up a straight line, not a bad alignment mind, then they realised they could extend a little to the Airport (tourists, yay!) and to Swords (votes, yay!). The public via the media took it up as "Airport Metro" and "Swords Metro". Everyone forgot about poor old Northside Dublin. Then it mutated into "how can we do the Airport and Swords cheaper"? Voilà le Dart Spur. Now people are singing the praises of the cheaper option, with the added advantage of not going all Nagasaki on Stephen's Green and an Lár. What began as an exercise in benefitting the Northside ironically begins to bypass them entirely. The area MN was meant to serve will now be all but surrounded by rail. To top it all off, let's face it, the spur will never be built, along with Metro North, Dart Underground, Kildare RP, 4-tracking the northern line, Lucan Luas, Liberties Luas, BXD, Luas to Bray (lol), Green line upgrade, Navan Commuter, and any other back of an envelope crayoning that is our transport policy.

dynamick

It would be very hard to carry out any plan that didn't bring obvious benefits to new passengers.

airport spur and DU offer more intense use of existing lines for the same passengers
BXD and MN reach new areas.

MN and DU rely on PPP funding so can't proceed.

It has to be BXD. Cabra, Phibsboro, Grangegorman, Broadstone all get something new. Project is above ground and months away from a planning grant.

Pete_Cavan

lods wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dart-airport-plan-on-track-as-metro-north-hits-the-buffers-2635349.html

It is estimated the overground rail project would cost just €300m and provide a high-speed link-up to the city centre at a fraction of the cost of the underground Metro plan.

A fraction of the cost and a fraction of the benefit! €300m for a train line that does not open up new commuter corridors; does not link with any other public transport; wants to run four trains on hour on a line with very limited spare capacity; and will not be able to compete in terms of journey times with the bus service currently in operation is appalling value.

I would imagine that, out of the four projects Leo says are on the table, this would have the poorest CBA. After DU it might have a chance but not before it.

However, this would be an easy sell to the public who think the alternative in a €5bn underground luas so would not be surprised to see this get the nod.

monument

dynamick wrote: »

MN and DU rely on PPP funding so can't proceed.

If that was true for sure, wouldn't the bidders would pull out? But apparently they are still spending money getting final bids ready?

Sponge Bob

Frank McDonald did not take long to change from being a DU fanboy to being a BXD fanboy, obviously Frank read the runes in Leos head. I cannot recall McDonald EVER writing an article on BXD before...which shows how much that yoke knows about anything to do with transport in general

So off he goes and peddles more of his fatous bilge in todays times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0502/1224295868502.html

Seemingly interconnecting the Luas lines is important now ...according to Frank, until An Taisce distract him whining about a rare snail in Broadstone next week.

runway16

Connecting up Luas is important, but I dont appreciate the man's disingenuosness either.

Reading his article today, it was more of the same old whinging.

It was also interesting to note that the Independent now estimates Metro North at just 2.5 billion, now that it looks like it wont go ahead, when they were talking of 5 billion plus Euro before.

These people really do make me sick.

jd

Leo Varadkar on VB now saying that Metro North will cost closer to 4.5 billion than 2.5 billion.
The 4.5 billion is the total cost over the 30 years of the PPP, I guess, and I don't think this government has the stomach to push this project through, even if the PPP finance is forecoming.

runway16

The stage management of this is really all too much!

Now, its 4.5 billion. So slowly but surely, despite LV's stated desire for MN, the justification for the project is being slowly eroded.

The DART airport plan erodes it even further - even suggesting this "alternative" is giving into the likes of Myers who tried to insist that MN was just an airport rail link. This is not an alternative to MN at all, it is just an alternative for one of the line's proposed 14 stops. While the proposed park and ride site might be useful to anyone living in Boroimhe or Ridgewood in Swords who can take a quick back road drive to reach it, it will be useless for the majority of Swords commuters too. A bus, plus a wait for a DART really isnt a viable alternative to the car or to a single bus journey.

I agree that a heavy rail connection to the airport is desirable, even if MN were to be built, but it is no alternative, and I am unhappy with LV trying to paint DART as a viable alternative. It just isnt.

That said, I wont hold this government to account if MN doesnt go ahead. I do trust them to make the right decision given our financial constraints, and would hope that if finances do not allow at the moment, that they would come back to this project when things do allow.

If DART airport and BXD is really all we can get, then it is better than nothing. It does solve two pressing transport issues in the city - but on the condition that DU and MN are relaunched when finance is easier to come by.

DWCommuter

3 points and bit more.

1. No Irish Government has the stomach to finance any plus billion rail project. They can't comprehend it.

2. There was never any grand plan to build anything. T21 was a political delay tactic.

3. The current Government are merely picking over the bones of what the previous Government promised. None of it was ever on the cards in any meaningful manner anyway. Its just another tactic.

BXD will not happen. DART to the Airport will not happen. None of it will happen. I hate being right all the time, but trust me, we will spend years debating all this and as we do, the state will end up reinventing the wheel and we'll be no further along the road to implementation. History is never wrong.

runway16

I completely understand your reasons for that DW.

But, and you may call me optimistic / Naive or just downright stupid , but I do think BXD and Airport DART are what is going to happen.

LV wont sit on his arse, he seems to have some spark, and FG still has to prove to the country that they can get things done in a way that FF didnt.

So we will get the two easy sell, cheap highly visible projects. FG/LAB will look like saints because they managed to deliver more than the one project that they so adeptly "managed expectations" for, and Reilly and LV will be saved from Backlash in Dublin North and Dublin West because they will be seen to have done at least something for the Swords area.

lucernarian

I would be pretty confident that a DART to the airport will not gladden the hearts of many people in Swords unless a free Park and Ride facility was set up and that would be still small consolation.

The BXD project is more galling to me if they end up crippling any chance of Metro North being built, on top of the disruption to one of the busiest public transport throughfares in Dublin. I don't think I'll ever be convinced that a luas route should be brought from Abbey St. to Stephen's Green even if metro north never reaches the light of day.

I cannot see connection to Dublin Airport via rail as an objective in and of itself when it is so well served with bus routes which are easily scalable as demand increases and with the road infrastructure in place to make it happen. I mentioned in the Commuting thread that if the DART were to follow the Metro North route from the airport to Swords or some sort of route at least, it would then serve people who actually need better public transport. Metro North could still be left as an ambitional plan to link the airport directly and serve a significant amount of north Dublin City. Which probably means it will never see the light of day:P


But then, that was said about the DART link to the airport years back and it still hasn't died a fitting death...

runway16

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I would be pretty confident that a DART to the airport will not gladden the hearts of many people in Swords unless a free Park and Ride facility was set up and that would be still small consolation.

The BXD project is more galling to me if they end up crippling any chance of Metro North being built, on top of the disruption to one of the busiest public transport throughfares in Dublin. I don't think I'll ever be convinced that a luas route should be brought from Abbey St. to Stephen's Green even if metro north never reaches the light of day.

I cannot see connection to Dublin Airport via rail as an objective in and of itself when it is so well served with bus routes which are easily scalable as demand increases and with the road infrastructure in place to make it happen. I mentioned in the Commuting thread that if the DART were to follow the Metro North route from the airport to Swords or some sort of route at least, it would then serve people who actually need better public transport. Metro North could still be left as an ambitional plan to link the airport directly and serve a significant amount of north Dublin City. Which probably means it will never see the light of day:P


But then, that was said about the DART link to the airport years back and it still hasn't died a fitting death...

Lots of airports are well connected by busses. That doesnt mean that linking them into the rail system isnt an objective. What if all Europe's airports had said that? None of them would have been part of the rail system, and therefore their attractiveness would have suffered. Foreign visitors like the ease of an easy rail connection, and its links to the national rail system.

It works to stimulate traffic at the airport as has been demonstrated time and time again at airports around Europe.

Cork is also well served by busses. Does that mean we should cut it off the rail system?

The two are not mutually exclusive.

dynamick

RPA predicted 7.5m passengers for BXD in their worst case scenario. IE is predicting 3.6m

runway16

It would be interesting to see how many passengers are handled by the rail links of comparably sized airports in Europe.

Dublin would be a little busier than Copenhagen, Stockholm, Brussels, or Vienna in terms of passenger numbers, and would be about the same as Oslo.

I will try to source figures for these rail links and revert back.

bk

runway16 wrote: »

Cork is also well served by busses. Does that mean we should cut it off the rail system?

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Actually, once you start running high quality non stop coaches to Cork (there currently aren't any), then yes, there is certainly an argument for that.

Well perhaps not totally cut it off from the rail system, that would be short sighted. But certainly not spend the hundreds of millions more needed to improve speeds on the line and reduce the subvention to it and cap the social welfare travel scheme.

Basically continue to run it and make sure it is safe, but not much else.

No point in spending lots of money when an as good and a lot cheaper alternative exists. The money saved should then be spent on higher priority projects like MN, DU, etc.

markpb

runway16 wrote: »

It would be interesting to see how many passengers are handled by the rail links of comparably sized airports in Europe.

I keep reading that an average of 20% of an airports passengers use a rail link if available. I'm not sure where that figure came from or how reliable it is.

Edit: This link might be interesting although it's 11 years old. Oslo - 43%, Hong Kong - 24%, Washington Regan - 14%, Atlanta Hartsfield - 8%, Chicago Midway - 8%, Chicago O'Hare 4%.

This link from 2002 says that 7% of people use public transport (not rail) to get to Melbourne.

Sponge Bob

20% sounds about right. It may be higher in Stansted which is in sticksville. This is the Oslo Airport service by the way

That would be 3m per annum out of 15m Dublin Passengers (say 10,000 a day flat average) or if you run trains 19 hours a day x 4 per hour that is 131 punters per shuttle or 65 per direction.

A single line VAL with a midpoint passing loop would probably do the trick...a shuttling from Clongriffin to the Airport. If you run Heavy rail from the Airport to Connolly the track sharing between Clongriffin and Connolly becomes a capacity issue affecting everyone coming from further north.

Aard

Copenhagen was mentioned above. It's one example of a city with a heavy-rail link (to Sweden, the rest of Denmark, and a fast way into the inner city), and a metro stop (for commuters, I guess). They also cost the same to get into town.

So, if MN were to be built, it would necessarily preclude a heavy-rail link in the future.

I don't see the Dart Spur ever being useful as a Dart line. More useful would be a Belfast-DUB-Dublin kind of setup. If it could run non-stop from the Airport to Connolly/Docklands, that would be fine.

But again, Dublin has more pressing issues than this spur line right now.