Is an Out of Service bus supposed to be in bus lane or not?

gurramok

Or allowed to be in both? Spotted this bus in both. Just to add, the driver skipped alot of traffic after going into the bus lane so it was beneficial to his/her journey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyHW2nHOvmw

L1011

A bus, in or out of service, is allowed use the bus lane or not use it as the driver sees fit.

gurramok

Was curious MYOB as taxi's do have a rule applied to them and was wondering if buses had that too, that clears it up

Run_to_da_hills

I don't see any harm in busses not using designated lanes it as long as the driver isn't "hogging" up the road, in this case he seems to be "lamping" it.

Ham'nd'egger

gurramok wrote: »

Or allowed to be in both? Spotted this bus in both. Just to add, the driver skipped alot of traffic after going into the bus lane so it was beneficial to his/her journey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyHW2nHOvmw

Asks the man who uses a phone while in control of a car;)

gurramok

Hamndegger wrote: »

Asks the man who uses a phone while in control of a car;)

How do you know its a phone, it could be something else?

JHMEG

Michael O'Leary doesn't run planes Out of Service, so one has to question the logic of a bus running a route but refusing to earn money.

Buses using ordinary traffic lanes while cars can't use bus lanes reminds me of a sign that was in the jax of my work place in the 90s:

Please don't throw fag butts in the urinals. We don't piss in your ashtrays.

Victor

AFAIK, only buses on scheduled services are entitled to use a bus lane. Strictly speaking, private hire coaches shouldn't use them, although a blind eye tends to be turned, especially if the coach is full.

By using the traffic lane, the bus driver is showing people he is not in service and they won't be quite as disappointed when the bus doesn't stop.

By the way, why were you using the bus lane?

lord lucan

Look at that gob****e trying to get into the filter lane and blocking everyone else!!

Muppet!:mad:

AlekSmart

Michael O'Leary doesn't run planes Out of Service, so one has to question the logic of a bus running a route but refusing to earn money.

Oddly enuf,Ryanair,in common with all airlines DO run aircraft out-of-service.
Not surprisingly you are not aware of it as destination displays are somewhat useless at 20,000 ft.
They call them positioning flights and whilst not something the airlines desire it is a regular feature of airline operations.

Aard

JHMEG wrote: »

Michael O'Leary doesn't run planes Out of Service, so one has to question the logic of a bus running a route but refusing to earn money.

A bus will get from A to B much faster if it doesn't have to stop every couple of hundred yards.

antoinolachtnai

Victor wrote: »

AFAIK, only buses on scheduled services are entitled to use a bus lane. Strictly speaking, private hire coaches shouldn't use them, although a blind eye tends to be turned, especially if the coach is full.

I do not have the SI to hand, but the ROTR seem to take a different view.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/traffic-signs-road-markings/buses.html

Cookie_Monster

if its after the particular time everyone should be using the bus lane as the leftmost lane but that doesn't happen either.

Was behind a bus displaying "L" on the display yesterday running in on the N11 (7.10-7020pm). He was all over the place from bus lane to middle to outside and back again and again, was in a real hurry. Also had passengers on board so clearly not learning.

KC61

JHMEG wrote: »

Michael O'Leary doesn't run planes Out of Service, so one has to question the logic of a bus running a route but refusing to earn money.

Buses using ordinary traffic lanes while cars can't use bus lanes reminds me of a sign that was in the jax of my work place in the 90s:

All forms of public transport have some dead running. If you didn't, then in order to comply with the working time directive on driver hours you would end up losing journeys or having to hire additional drivers at extra cost to ensure a complete timetable at times when there are generally sufficient alternatives.

For example take what were known as the "EURO" driver duties introduced in 1999, which have a 12 hour day with a gap in the middle. Typically, a driver will sign on in the depot between 06.00 and 07.30. He will then take a bus to the outer terminus of a route and then operate an inbound journey followed by a complete return journey (it could be more depending on the length of the route) before going on his break.

He will then restart in the early afternoon and probably do a return working from the city along with an outbound journey to the outer terminus and then return to the depot out of service no later than 12 hours after he started his day.

Most routes that these duties operate on are long enough that this is the only pattern possible, as there is not sufficient time for the bus to return in service so that the driver is inside the maximum hours available.

This pattern means that journeys are maximised in the direction of peak traffic flow.

It's principally the finishing part of these duties between 18.00 and 19.30 that people see operating inbound along the QBCs working empty to the depots. The empty workings for early morning starts and late night finishes to the regular shift duties are not so obvious as most people are in bed!

JHMEG

KC61 wrote: »

Most routes that these duties operate on are long enough that this is the only pattern possible, as there is not sufficient time for the bus to return in service so that the driver is inside the maximum hours available.

Wasn't there a thing on Primetime a while back about drivers "timing" routes, ie running too fast or too slow to manipulate this, deliberately ending up in overtime or an Out-of-Service?

markpb

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Was behind a bus displaying "L" on the display yesterday running in on the N11 (7.10-7020pm). He was all over the place from bus lane to middle to outside and back again and again, was in a real hurry. Also had passengers on board so clearly not learning.

The passengers may not have been members of the public. I've seen L buses with several DB staff on-board, presumably for training purposes.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I do not have the SI to hand, but the ROTR seem to take a different view.

The SI says:

ROAD TRAFFIC (SIGNS) (BUS LANES) REGULATIONS, 1979. wrote:

"bus lane" means a part of a road marked with the roadway markings referred to in article 3 of these Regulations, in which no class of vehicles is permitted other than omnibuses and classes of vehicles set out in bye-laws relating to the bus lane.

I can't find the by-laws mentioned though.

Cookie_Monster

markpb wrote: »

The passengers may not have been members of the public. I've seen L buses with several DB staff on-board, presumably for training purposes.

They clearly were.
Young guy reading a book, young woman listening to her mp3, gazing out the window. both sitting on one of the back two rows downstairs, didn't see if there was anyone upstairs. type of dress they were wearing didn't look like any DB stuff either

KC61

JHMEG wrote: »

Wasn't there a thing on Primetime a while back about drivers "timing" routes, ie running too fast or too slow to manipulate this, deliberately ending up in overtime or an Out-of-Service?

There were allegations of that, but if that were happening then you would have mass cancellations of scheduled bus journeys, which as someone who uses a very wide variety of bus routes every day (a minimum of four buses) I have to say does not happen in my experience to any great extent.

Every organisation has unfortunately some bad apples that will tarnish the reputation of those who do their job properly.

What I am referring to in my post above is the scheduled running time. For most of those EURO duties, it would be impossible to do two complete return journeys either side of the driver's break without going over the hours. Added to that the usefulness would be minimal as the extra journeys would not be in the direction of peak traffic flow, and there would generally be sufficient buses in service on the routes as it is.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

There were allegations of that, but if that were happening then you would have mass cancellations of scheduled bus journeys, which as someone who uses a very wide variety of bus routes every day (a minimum of four buses) I have to say does not happen in my experience to any great extent.

buses never ever get cancelled in Dublin, they just fail to turn up. :pac:

SickCert

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

They clearly were.
Young guy reading a book, young woman listening to her mp3, gazing out the window. both sitting on one of the back two rows downstairs, didn't see if there was anyone upstairs. type of dress they were wearing didn't look like any DB stuff either

Delays on the 84 again.
I passed him on the main st.

Cookie_Monster

SickCert wrote: »

Delays on the 84 again.
I passed him on the main st.

so its alright to run without stopping all the way to town, what about people who want to get from between Cabinteely and Donnybrook to anywhere from the side of the RDS/Herbert hotel onwards?

So delayed he caught up with another 84 at belfield :rolleyes:

antoinolachtnai

I think what was suggested was slightly different, and had to do with shorter breaks, not the long breaks. Drivers are supposed to get their breaks, the same as people in any other job where there are periods of intense concentration. Obviously this has to be timed into the timetable. If a driver is late going on his break (say, because of traffic congestion), he is obviously either going to have a shorter break, or else the whole timetable is going to be disturbed to facilitate him. So the agreement was that in exchange for accepting a shorter break, the driver would get an extra payment. This helped keep the timetable on-track.

Now, if a driver were to deliberately run late on the run before his break, or even if he were to report that he was late, it would mean that he would get an extra payment. The suggestion was that some drivers did this. I do not know if this was true.

If a driver were to do this, it would not have any direct impact on the customer, i.e., no services are cancelled.

By the way, it is considered acceptable for DB to cancel one bus in 50, i.e., if you take four buses a day, you should expect a service to be cancelled every 12 days or so.

Cookie_Monster

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

By the way, it is considered acceptable for DB to cancel one bus in 50, i.e., if you take four buses a day, you should expect a service to be cancelled every 12 days or so.

:eek::eek::eek:
1 in 50! Thats shockingly bad

SickCert

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so its alright to run without stopping all the way to town, what about people who want to get from between Cabinteely and Donnybrook to anywhere from the side of the RDS/Herbert hotel onwards?

So delayed he caught up with another 84 at belfield :rolleyes:

Didnt say it was alright, i said i spotted it on the main st.

KC61

There are cases where a controller will instruct the driver that is running late to operate out of service and set down passengers only in order to get the bus and the driver back on schedule.

These situations are generally though where there would be sufficient alternatives to take.

Cookie_Monster

SickCert wrote: »

Didnt say it was alright, i said i spotted it on the main st.

not having a go at you at all. should have said "so DB think its alright..."

SickCert

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Now, if a driver were to deliberately run late on the run before his break, or even if he were to report that he was late, it would mean that he would get an extra payment. The suggestion was that some drivers did this. I do not know if this was true.

We lost the 1hr OT payment on the last round of cuts.

KC61

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I think what was suggested was slightly different, and had to do with shorter breaks, not the long breaks. Drivers are supposed to get their breaks, the same as people in any other job where there are periods of intense concentration. Obviously this has to be timed into the timetable. If a driver is late going on his break (say, because of traffic congestion), he is obviously either going to have a shorter break, or else the whole timetable is going to be disturbed to facilitate him. So the agreement was that in exchange for accepting a shorter break, the driver would get an extra payment. This helped keep the timetable on-track.

Now, if a driver were to deliberately run late on the run before his break, or even if he were to report that he was late, it would mean that he would get an extra payment. The suggestion was that some drivers did this. I do not know if this was true.

If a driver were to do this, it would not have any direct impact on the customer, i.e., no services are cancelled.

By the way, it is considered acceptable for DB to cancel one bus in 50, i.e., if you take four buses a day, you should expect a service to be cancelled every 12 days or so.

Genuinely as someone who uses a very large number of buses every day of the week (probably more than most on this board), I don't suffer from this problem that much. It's usually only when traffic grinds to a standstill on very wet days.

I don't always take the same particular buses every day - I do switch around, and coming home I am taking buses mid-route. Having examined the timetable I came up with my own assessment of when the buses would arrive at my stop based on my knowledge of the route (there is a variety of routes from different termini), and by and large they have shown up when I would expect them to do so.

I could probably count the number of no-shows that I've experienced in the last year on one hand to be honest.

Certain routes suffered significantly from cancellations or late running due to the schedules - the 75 was one, but since the schedule was altered two years ago it has become very reliable. The city centre bus gate is having an effect on peak hour schedules with the 39 benefitting significantly apparently.

The problem is that a perception can build up due to bad experiences, and while in many cases the effects have been tackled, changing that perception is then a fundamentally difficult job.

SickCert

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not having a go at you at all. should have said "so DB think its alright..."

The running time on this route goes back to 2001, it can be a mess at peak times. Should have been sorted years ago.

KC61

SickCert wrote: »

The running time on this route goes back to 2001, it can be a mess at peak times. Should have been sorted years ago.

This *should* be tackled as part of the ongoing network review. If it isn't then, Houston, we have problems!

Cookie_Monster

SickCert wrote: »

The running time on this route goes back to 2001, it can be a mess at peak times. Should have been sorted years ago.

KC61 wrote: »

This *should* be tackled as part of the ongoing network review. If it isn't then, Houston, we have problems!

Amen to both of those

KC61

KC61 wrote: »

This *should* be tackled as part of the ongoing network review. If it isn't then, Houston, we have problems!

Don't you mean Broadstone?

*Ba-dum tish*

Thank you, I'm here all weekend......

gurramok

MYOB wrote: »

A bus, in or out of service, is allowed use the bus lane or not use it as the driver sees fit.

Victor wrote: »

AFAIK, only buses on scheduled services are entitled to use a bus lane. Strictly speaking, private hire coaches shouldn't use them, although a blind eye tends to be turned, especially if the coach is full.

By using the traffic lane, the bus driver is showing people he is not in service and they won't be quite as disappointed when the bus doesn't stop.

So who is right?

By the way, the bus lane was in operation at the time:)

I'd support use of the bus lane by out of service buses. it makes sense to give them the option heading outbound from garage to the start of a route, So that it starts in good time. Inbound to garage not so much, but I wouldn't begrudge it to them.

Patser

Regards the OP,

I'm a BE driver, and I was on the Wicklow run this morning, driving in at rush hour. There is a bus lane all along the N11, but it's speed limit is 60, while the main road lanes were 80. Since traffic was light it was better served staying in the main lane, and keeping my speed up. As soon as I caught up on traffic, it was better served getting into the bus lane. Which is a legitimate reason for buses to hop in and out of bus lanes.

As for wether it's better, which would you prefer, empty 'out of service' buses adding to traffic congestion while being unable to use the bus lane, and also increasing there unavailable for service time, or out of your way and gone down the bus lane. Same with unoccupied taxis, motorcyclists, private coaches etc.

Edit: Before someone screams at me, that 80kmh limit on the N11, I'm fully aware is only about half the lenght inbound

antoinolachtnai

What is the deal with that speed limit anyway?

Cookie_Monster

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What is the deal with that speed limit anyway?

house driveways and other exits straight into the bus lane so needs to be kept to 60.

This is the original reason for the entire road (section) being only 60 rather than 80

gurramok

Patser wrote: »

As for wether it's better, which would you prefer, empty 'out of service' buses adding to traffic congestion while being unable to use the bus lane, and also increasing there unavailable for service time, or out of your way and gone down the bus lane. Same with unoccupied taxis, motorcyclists, private coaches etc.

I'd prefer if the out of service bus used the bus lane, its common sense. A whole lane there lay unused and if the driver used it(which he eventually did), it would be beneficial for public transport efficiency if you know what i mean

antoinolachtnai

The big operating issue we have at Swords Express is getting the bus back into the city centre in the evening to do a second run during the rush hour. Some of these buses travel back to the city empty, for speed. We need the bus lanes to get us there.

AlekSmart

House driveways and other exits straight into the bus lane so needs to be kept to 60.

Indeed,yet another of the multitude of "Benefits" we have from our "World Class" Urban Planning and Development as practiced over the past 3 decades in Ireland.

It`s more apparent than ever that the native Irish are somewhat bereft of the scope of vision needed to allow for Efficient,effective and Affordable Public Transport.

Had we sub-contracted the entire business out to the Dutch,for example,we might be travelling on older,more basic vehicles BUT they would be frequent,integrated and making maximum use of the infrastructure......we tend to have a great belief in the benefits of a nice ramble in the countryside,at as restricted a speed as can be achieved.

National Transport Authority my ass........ :rolleyes:

Vic_08

gurramok wrote: »

I'd prefer if the out of service bus used the bus lane, its common sense. A whole lane there lay unused and if the driver used it(which he eventually did), it would be beneficial for public transport efficiency if you know what i mean

What you mean is that you were annoyed that the bus used your lane and got in your way which is presumably why you were so quick to flash the bus when it apparently didn't move off from the traffic lights.


As for using bus lanes in general, there are a variety of reasons why I will often not use certain bus lanes at certain times. Many of them are too narrow, full of left-turning cars ignoring the road markings or are short stubs that end suddenly requiring a yield to other traffic which makes them usesless for making progress except when the general traffic lane is stationary or very slow moving.

Vic_08

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

house driveways and other exits straight into the bus lane so needs to be kept to 60.

This is the original reason for the entire road (section) being only 60 rather than 80

Only the section from Loughlinstown to Cabinteely has been changed from 60 to 60/80. Cabinteely to Foxrock was always 80 and has no private access.

gurramok

Vic_08 wrote: »

What you mean is that you were annoyed that the bus used your lane and got in your way which is presumably why you were so quick to flash the bus when it apparently didn't move off from the traffic lights.

No and no, you picked up the wrong end of the stick there. I was not in a hurry and I did not flash the bus, I had switched on my lights as it was getting dark.

Cookie_Monster

Vic_08 wrote: »

Only the section from Loughlinstown to Cabinteely has been changed from 60 to 60/80. Cabinteely to Foxrock was always 80 and has no private access.

I know that, thats why I had "section" in brackets

Tescoboat52

I think its a good idea to keep the bus seperate as then if the empty bus needs to get somewhere to work a service it can do so with out as much as delay as it might have in traffic with cars. Then the service would not be delayed leaving as the bus would be more likely to get there in time.