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    #32
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    PDN wrote: »
    No, as usually happens when non-Christians try to answer on our behalf, it sounds totally wrong.

    Christians believe that Abraham, Moses etc are in heaven - and they lived before Jesus.


    No, in God's eyes they are sinners for lying, cheating, stealing and the various other kinds of sin that humans like to commit    .

    Isnt that a little unfair? to punish someone for not repenting to a god that they dont know exists? Why would god willingly punish millions of people for commiting a sin when the knowledge of what that sin entails hadnt been formed yet? ignoring murder and thievery which were punished before Christian times anyway, again more sociey laws than religious ones. Before the ten commandments came into effect how were people to know any better?


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    #33
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Edit: Ahh I think Santing answered in regards to retrospective salvation. But where did the souls go inbetween death and salvation, and would that form of retrospective salvation exist nowadays for non-believers born after Jesus. Do Hindus for example get a chance to apply for a transfer (if you'll excuse the simplistic imagery) from Hell to Heaven once they find out that Christianity was the right religion?

    Thats what I'm getting at, can someone be part of the "wrong" religion and still get into heaven from a christian perspective? like at what point do you accept jesus? deathbed? purgatory? If you can go through life not accepting Jesus then suddenly decide once you die and you get to see which religion was right after all and still be in gods good graces then why all the effort in this life?


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    #34
    santing
    Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭santing


    krudler wrote: »
    Thats what I'm getting at, can someone be part of the "wrong" religion and still get into heaven from a christian perspective? like at what point do you accept jesus? deathbed? purgatory? If you can go through life not accepting Jesus then suddenly decide once you die and you get to see which religion was right after all and still be in gods good graces then why all the effort in this life?
    You can indeed accept the Lord Jesus in your dying breath, and deathbed conversions are not unheard of.
    Why all the effort? Well actually we would say, why all the effort avoiding God and refusing a life that really has purpose. You don't know what you are missing!
    Joh 10:10 CEV I came so that everyone would have life, and have it in its fullest.


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    #35
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    strobe wrote: »
    Ok so then it wasn't actually necessary for Jesus to come to Earth and die for our sins (original sin?) for people to get into heaven? Like Moses and Abraham, as long as you worship God and live by his rules, as they stand at that particular time, Jesus is irrelevant? Or were Moses, Abraham Noah and co special cases because they were in direct contact with God? Or was there a change in the entry qualifications after the coming of Jesus?
    Moses etc were saved because their sacrifices looked ahead to the coming Messiah (Christ). They believed in the one who was yet to come. So, it was very necessary for Jesus to come to earth and die for our sins.


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    #36
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    krudler wrote: »
    Isnt that a little unfair? to punish someone for not repenting to a god that they dont know exists? Why would god willingly punish millions of people for commiting a sin when the knowledge of what that sin entails hadnt been formed yet? ignoring murder and thievery which were punished before Christian times anyway, again more sociey laws than religious ones. Before the ten commandments came into effect how were people to know any better?

    No, you're missing the point. They are punished for the sins they have wilfully committed, not for 'not repenting'.

    The offer of forgiveness, conditional upon repentance, is not some thing that we have a right to expect. It is a totally undeserved free offer.

    Even if God only chose to extend this offer to one person, the rest of humanity would still be judged righteously and, getting what they deserved, would have no grounds for complaint.

    People, all people, do bad things - even when they know better. I can hope that God will show undeserved grace and mercy to those who never heartd the Gospel - but they have no right to expect it.


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    #37
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    So PDN (cheers for taking the time to answer btw, I'm sure all these things have some up several times before) if someone living in an isolated south american tribe, lived their entire life without lying, cheating, stealing and the various other kinds of sin (is any sin punishable by Hell or is there a sort of classification whereby some sins are wrong but won't land you in Hell?) then would that person go straight to Heaven despite the fact they never prayed to God or knew about Jesus or any of that?


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    #38
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Bringthethunder wrote: »
    Yeah your right non believers should get a free pass i mean if you dont believe in something you dont believe.... nothing should be forced on you..

    Yeah Like if I don't believe in the laws of physics just let them try and stop me from jumping of that cliff and flying off on my holidays? and if i don't believe these silly laws about marriage or property or right to life these religious people go on about I should be able to steal rape and murder my way through life?


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    #39
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Irlandese wrote: »
    I had asked:
    From what religious belief system are YOU quoting, when you say :
    "Then you misunderstand the fundamentals of Christianity. According to it you aren't "doomed" for the thought-crime of not believing. Instead, you are given exactly what you want - a life without God. Nothing is being forced on anyone."
    In replying now, after some thought, that you are speaking from a christian viewpoint, do I take it that you see that the Roman catholic position re forcing people to believe or torture/rape/kill them as in the inquisition ( albeit done differently nowadays, we hope) is very different to what is believed in other christian religions? Like which?

    The actions you refer to (death under the Inquisition) happened to relatively few people and was not Roman but Spanish Catholics. It isn't the RC position today and "death to unbelievers" is a fringe belief in Christianity.


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    #40
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    strobe wrote: »
    So PDN (cheers for taking the time to answer btw, I'm sure all these things have some up several times before) if someone living in an isolated south american tribe, lived their entire life without lying, cheating, stealing and the various other kinds of sin (is any sin punishable by Hell or is there a sort of classification whereby some sins are wrong but won't land you in Hell?) then would that person go straight to Heaven despite the fact they never prayed to God or knew about Jesus or any of that?

    http://www.interfaithfamily.com/life_cycle/pregnancy_and_birth_ceremonies/Is_Heaven_Denied_to_an_Unbaptized_Child_Advice_and_Perspective_for_Catholic_Parents_Who_Are_Raising_Their_Children_within_Judaism.shtml

    http://www.religion-cults.com/Christianity/heav-h.htm


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    #41
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Thanks for the links, although I'd be surprised to find the opinions expressed within them were generally excepted by Christians. The synopsis of the first link seems to be summed up by the following "This newer interpretation is a part of the common understanding of the Catholic Church today. We believe that God saves all peoples, not only Christians." It doesn't really expand on that, but taken as it's written it seems to suggest Heaven for everyone irregardles of anything whatsoever.

    The second one summarises itself with "You will not be asked: Were you a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu?... or rich or poor, wise or ignorant?... the only thing you will be asked for is, did you do good to your neighbor?: So, come on to Heaven!... or, did you do bad to your neighbor?: So, go to Hell!..." Is that the common perception? Is the Christian belief that fundamentally God, Jesus, the (a) church, what sacraments you adhere to, what God you follow, if you follow any God at all, is totally irrelevant. The only deciding factor on wether it is Heaven or Hell for you is wether you were nice to the people around you, no stipulations, no terms or conditions apply?

    I like the idea of a religion with that as it's overriding directive, but that would seem to go against a huge amount of opinions I've heard and read. I'm paraphrasing here but didn't Jesus say something along the lines of "There is no way to Heaven but through me". There is also a lot throughout the bible which seems to suggest that extremely specific conditions for entry into Heaven exist. How do you reconcile that with the message conveyed in the links you provided?

    (or have I completely misinterpreted what the links were attempting to say?)


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    #42
    monosharp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭monosharp


    www.religion-cults.com wrote:
    The Atheists?:

    They have "no excuse", says Paul, because since the creation of the world God has shown to them his eternal power and divine nature, in Rom.1:18-24... Psalms 14 and 53 call them "fools"... and Job says to them: "ask the beasts!, and they will teach you"... who made the feathers of the birds, or the lungs of the fish...? (Job 12:7-9).

    hahaha


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    #43
    monosharp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭monosharp


    PDN wrote: »
    No, you're missing the point. They are punished for the sins they have wilfully committed, not for 'not repenting'.

    What sins ? How did they know they were sins or not ?


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    #44
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    monosharp wrote: »
    What sins ? How did they know they were sins or not ?

    Everybody (other than those who die as babies or are severely mentally handicapped) does things, at one point or another, that they know are morally wrong.


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    #45
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    strobe wrote: »
    So PDN (cheers for taking the time to answer btw, I'm sure all these things have some up several times before) if someone living in an isolated south american tribe, lived their entire life without lying, cheating, stealing and the various other kinds of sin (is any sin punishable by Hell or is there a sort of classification whereby some sins are wrong but won't land you in Hell?) then would that person go straight to Heaven despite the fact they never prayed to God or knew about Jesus or any of that?

    I, and indeed Christianity in general, do not believe that such a person exists. The very best among us, at some time or another, do things that we know are morally wrong. Our innate sense of morality (which Christians believe comes from God) varies from culture to culture because our faculties are distorted by sin - but deep down we all know certain things are morally wrong.


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    #46
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    OK, thread is open for business again. According to the Moderator's Log I locked it when I wasn't online! :confused:


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    #47
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    I blame Satan and atheists.


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    #48
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I blame Satan and atheists.

    We cant be in league with him,we dont believe he exists :p


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    #49
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    krudler wrote: »
    We cant be in league with him,we dont believe he exists :p

    He believe is you. That's all that matters.

    Now begone vile fiend!


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    #50
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    krudler wrote: »
    We cant be in league with him,we dont believe he exists :p

    And there I was believing the guys on the A&A forum when they say they have no common system of belief apart from not believing in God.

    I remember that at one time there was a regular poster, both here and on A&A, who was both an atheist and a satanist.


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    #51
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    PDN wrote: »
    And there I was believing the guys on the A&A forum when they say they have no common system of belief apart from not believing in God.

    I remember that at one time there was a regular poster, both here and on A&A, who was both an atheist and a satanist.

    An atheistic Satanist, of course.


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    #52
    Irlandese
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Irlandese


    ISAW wrote: »
    The actions you refer to (death under the Inquisition) happened to relatively few people and was not Roman but Spanish Catholics. It isn't the RC position today and "death to unbelievers" is a fringe belief in Christianity.
    Roman-Spanish ?? You are joking me, right? Ah, good one. I am getting too old for this.

    Sorry, the penultimate Pope refused to rescind the Canon laws that effected the Inquisition despite being asked nicely. Under Canon Law, friend, they still claim to have the same rights to do it to you again, as they did back in the bad old days. However, they probably have much nicer tecniques today.....I hope....


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    #53
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I blame Satan and atheists.

    Now Fanny, you know there is no need for a distinction between the two ;)


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    #54
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    I'll call you Satheists from now on.


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    #55
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    But really, if someone was born in an isolated south american tribe, and then did nothing important till they were 5 years old, then went to live in a cave all on their own, till they died. Would that person go to heaven? Hypothetically they comited no sins, wether they were aware that they were sins or not. They never commited a sin, do they get to go to heaven? No knowlege of God, never heard of Jesus, but they never commited a sin? Heaven for them?


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    #56
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    So Jesus just cancels out the sins you've commited? If you are sin free Jesus (That's his point?) isn't necessary?


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    #57
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Or is not worshiping God (or possibly Jesus?) a sin in it's self, wether or not you have been told anything about him?


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    #58
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    strobe wrote: »
    But really, if someone was born in an isolated south american tribe, and then did nothing important till they were 5 years old, then went to live in a cave all on their own, till they died. Would that person go to heaven? Hypothetically they comited no sins, wether they were aware that they were sins or not. They never commited a sin, do they get to go to heaven? No knowlege of God, never heard of Jesus, but they never commited a sin? Heaven for them?

    The Gospel deals with real people, not hypothetical people. I don't believe anyone sits in a cave for a lifetime without ever committing a sin (for instance, in a world where other people need your help then spending your life sitting in a cave is committing the sin of being a lazy selfish git :) )

    The Christian position is that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Of course it is no sin not to believe in someone you've never heard of - but those who have never heard of Jesus find plenty of other ways to sin.


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