The rules

krudler

Started talking about this with some people the other night, Lent came up in conversation, few jokey comments about "what are you giving up" etc etc, a friend of a friend who was there asked me if I was giving up anything for it and I said no, as I'm not a practicing catholic/christian/whatever and dont believe in god, those rules dont apply to me.
Little did I know this would start a debate on religion itself with a few other people, according to some, the idea of sin, hell, the ten commandments etc etc all applies to us regardless of whether or not we believe, but other people sided with me and are of the thinking that if you dont believe or if you're not of the Christian (or any, but being that the majority of people there were catholic or some variety of christian) faith, the rules dont apply.

Theres plenty of stuff that being an everyday Christian would mean you're going against some sort of rule in another religion, working on the sabbath, eating pork,or some stuff that is no longer seen as a major no-no, etc etc. so my point was this, if Christians dont worry (at least I dont think they do) about breaking the rules of other religions as they're not a part of them, then why do Christians (at least the ones I was talking to) get so defensive about people not sticking to their rules and beliefs? Religion is a man made thing, nobody can deny that, there are so many different faiths and beliefs and variations on the same beliefs and faiths thats impossible to say theres only one "true" religion as there will always be someone who will argue the point.

So do us non believers get a free pass? or are well all as doomed as the people who have a completely different belief system?

Bringthethunder

well regarding the 10 commandments these apply to all non believers too, i mean its still wrong to steal and murder even if you dont believe in God....

krudler

Bringthethunder wrote: »

well regarding the 10 commandments these apply to all non believers too, i mean its still wrong to steal and murder even if you dont believe in God....

Yeah but those ideals were around in society long before, thieves and muderers didnt go unpunished for the thousands of years humans were around before Moses took a wander up a mountain

strobe

krudler wrote: »

So do us non believers get a free pass? or are well all as doomed as the people who have a completely different belief system?

I'm no expert or anything but basically no, non believers don't get a free pass, and yes, anyone that doesn't follow the rules is doomed, regardless of wether or not they feel the rules should apply to them.

Bringthethunder

Yeah your right non believers should get a free pass i mean if you dont believe in something you dont believe.... nothing should be forced on you...my issue with non believers is the way a lot of them dont believe in god (which is there right) but then go off and get married in a church cause they want a big wedding in my view if someone is truly a non believer they should be no where near a church full stop.

Fanny Cradock

Bringthethunder wrote: »

Yeah your right non believers should get a free pass i mean if you dont believe in something you dont believe.... nothing should be forced on you...

Then you misunderstand the fundamentals of Christianity. According to it you aren't "doomed" for the thought-crime of not believing. Instead, you are given exactly what you want - a life without God. Nothing is being forced on anyone.

On a slightly different note, I would not be so sure as to say non-believers are "doomed" - Moses was not a Christian after all. Only God can determine who is saved and who isn't.

PDN

I don't believe in the laws that forbid me to park on a double yellow line.

Do I get a free pass? Or am I as doomed to pay my parking ticket as the people who accept such stupid laws?

Stephentlig

Bringthethunder wrote: »

Yeah your right non believers should get a free pass i mean if you dont believe in something you dont believe.... nothing should be forced on you...my issue with non believers is the way a lot of them dont believe in god (which is there right) but then go off and get married in a church cause they want a big wedding in my view if someone is truly a non believer they should be no where near a church full stop.

Let it be noted that I thanked you for the last part of your post about non beleivers wanting the big Church wedding etc etc....

But Fanny and PDN responded correctly in relation to first part.

Pax Christi
Stephen<3

krudler

Bringthethunder wrote: »

Yeah your right non believers should get a free pass i mean if you dont believe in something you dont believe.... nothing should be forced on you...my issue with non believers is the way a lot of them dont believe in god (which is there right) but then go off and get married in a church cause they want a big wedding in my view if someone is truly a non believer they should be no where near a church full stop.

But church weddings are seen now as more of a traditional place to have one rather than the religious aspect of it, I know 3 couples who have/are getting married and none of them are any eay religious, but they got married in a church as its the traditional thing to do, try telling your bride to be she has to get married in a registry office instead of in a chapel with flowers and bridesmaids and family present and watch the sparks fly

krudler

PDN wrote: »

I don't believe in the laws that forbid me to park on a double yellow line.

Do I get a free pass? Or am I as doomed to pay my parking ticket as the people who accept such stupid laws?

Thats a law of society, thats like saying you can murder someone if you feel like it because you dont think murder should be punishable, have you ever lit a candle on a Saturday? then you've ignited a fire on the sabbath which is forbidden under Jewish law, but I doubt you were concerned as since you're not Jewish the rules dont apply to you, thats the point I'm making.

If you dont agree you shouldnt be able to park on yellow lines, ride the bus.

santing

PDN wrote: »

I don't believe in the laws that forbid me to park on a double yellow line.

Come to the West of Ireland. We don't have such laws.

Fanny Cradock

krudler wrote: »

Thats a law of society, thats like saying you can murder someone if you feel like it because you dont think murder should be punishable, have you ever lit a candle on a Saturday? then you've ignited a fire on the sabbath which is forbidden under Jewish law, but I doubt you were concerned as since you're not Jewish the rules dont apply to you, thats the point I'm making.

From what religious tradition are you seeking an answer? Judaism or Christianity?

Given the forum, it might be helpful to frame your question in a Christian context. If we operate under the assumption that Christianity is true we don't have to confuse matters by bringing the laws of other religions into this debate. Christian are free to eat pork or ignite fires on Saturday because we aren't Jewish.

krudler wrote: »

If you dont agree you shouldnt be able to park on yellow lines, ride the bus.

Again, you are confusing matters - this time by mixing metaphors. If we are assuming that Christianity is true then there is no other option and you can't ride the bus.

Irlandese

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

From what religious tradition are you seeking an answer? Judaism or Christianity?

Given the forum, it might be helpful to frame your question in a Christian context. If we operate under the assumption that Christianity is true we don't have to confuse matters by bringing the laws of other religions into this debate. Christian are free to eat pork or ignite fires on Saturday because we aren't Jewish.



Again, you are confusing matters - this time by mixing metaphors. If we are assuming that Christianity is true then there is no other option and you can't ride the bus.

From what religious belief system are YOU quoting, when you say :
"Then you misunderstand the fundamentals of Christianity. According to it you aren't "doomed" for the thought-crime of not believing. Instead, you are given exactly what you want - a life without God. Nothing is being forced on anyone."
I am referring to the Roman Catholic Church when I remind you that the Canon Laws that established and guided the Inquisition, where non-believers were horribly tortured, raped or killed etc for the "crime" of non belief ( they used other words, mind ), are still in force and the RC Church refused to rescind same while the present pope was the head of the office responsible for said Inquisition.
Just trying to clarify.

santing

Irlandese wrote: »

I am referring to the Roman Catholic Church when I remind you that the Canon Laws ...
Just trying to clarify.

Irlandese,
It might be more helpful to point to current practices or recent "Canon Laws" as the RC establishment is very slow in renouncing anything. :mad:

This is what the new Code of Canon Law brought out in 1983 says about the matter:

Canon 1251
Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference, is to be observed on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

So is a Roman Catholic free to eat meat on Fridays?

Irlandese

santing wrote: »

Irlandese,
It might be more helpful to point to current practices or recent "Canon Laws" as the RC establishment is very slow in renouncing anything. :mad:


So is a Roman Catholic free to eat meat on Fridays?

That came in out of left field:
The point is what is a particular religion all about? If you claim to be a member, you presumably agree to their rules, if their chief wizard or pope asserts that he is speaking for his god and that you MUST believe and follow the rules or be caste out or excommunicated they call it !
For one important example, the relevant canon laws for the inquisition are still in force and logically and legally, according to canon law, if you care about it, catholics thereby seem to still claim the right to pick up unsuspecting agnostics off the street, rape them, torture them and later burn them at the stake, if the fancy takes them, just because said non-believers feel free to have an open mind.
Lovely people. Sure wouldn't you know they didn't know they were doing wrong when they raped all those children. Perhaps they were just keeping in shape for the real work, eh?

Zombrex

krudler wrote: »

So do us non believers get a free pass? or are well all as doomed as the people who have a completely different belief system?

I'm confused?

Do you mean if Christianity is true?

Then yes you are are as doomed as everyone else who don't find salvation in Jesus.

That is what salvation means, saved from God's righteous punishment for sin.

But then you don't believe that (neither do I) so what is the issue? You are only doomed if it is true, but by definition a non-believer doesn't believe it is true, so why be worried about it?

homer911

Wicknight wrote: »

Originally Posted by krudler
So do us non believers get a free pass? or are well all as doomed as the people who have a completely different belief system?

I'm confused?

Do you mean if Christianity is true?

Then yes you are are as doomed as everyone else who don't find salvation in Jesus.

That is what salvation means, saved from God's righteous punishment for sin.

But then you don't believe that (neither do I) so what is the issue? You are only doomed if it is true, but by definition a non-believer doesn't believe it is true, so why be worried about it?

I think krudler is pointing out the distinction between knowing about God and knowing God. Cultural Christians would know about God, but would not know God in the sense of having a personal faith or living relationship with their creator

For many Cultural Christians, the leap from knowing about God to choosing to be an atheist/agnostic is too big a jump to take - the difference, if you will, between sitting on top of the wall and being on the wrong side of it! (from my Christian perspective..)

Gregor Samsa

krudler wrote: »

So do us non believers get a free pass? or are well all as doomed as the people who have a completely different belief system?

Well,most believers probably believe that the laws apply to everyone.

Non-believers, on the other hand, don't recognise the authority of the laws in the first place, so they're bound to reject that assertion.

And I'm just not talking about the theist/atheist divide - every religion has laws that it assumes apply to all mankind that other religions contest.

The difference, of course between, religious laws and the parking laws mentioned above is that the parking laws are enforced in a way that we all can directly experience (you receive the ticket, summons, get a clamp on your car, or whatever), where as religious laws (at least out side of theocracies) are not.

Personally, I don't belive the laws of any religion are valid per-se, and I live according to that (and no, that doesn't mean I don't think it's wrong to eat babies).

PDN

phutyle wrote: »

The difference, of course between, religious laws and the parking laws mentioned above is that the parking laws are enforced in a way that we all can directly experience (you receive the ticket, summons, get a clamp on your car, or whatever), where as religious laws (at least out side of theocracies) are not.

Just wait - you get to have the direct experience further down the line.

Gregor Samsa

PDN wrote: »

Just wait - you get to have the direct experience further down the line.

The veracity of that, of course, is where we disagree.

krudler

homer911 wrote: »

I think krudler is pointing out the distinction between knowing about God and knowing God. Cultural Christians would know about God, but would not know God in the sense of having a personal faith or living relationship with their creator

For many Cultural Christians, the leap from knowing about God to choosing to be an atheist/agnostic is too big a jump to take - the difference, if you will, between sitting on top of the wall and being on the wrong side of it! (from my Christian perspective..)

Lets take pre-Christian people for example, take say, the Greeks. Around thousands of years before Christ was so had no knowledge of him or god in the Christian sense, they're not Christians by any stretch as Christianity didnt exist at that point, so in gods eyes are they sinners for not believing in him? how could they when they had no idea of his existence?They worshipped multiple gods and deitys so by the logic that not acknowledging gods existence means you're a sinner, it seems a bit unfair that an entire civilisation is doomed because the religion that christians take to be the only one that matters didnt exist yet. Are we to assume that everyone pre the AD calendar is a sinner through no fault of their own?

strobe

krudler wrote: »

Lets take pre-Christian people for example, take say, the Greeks. Around thousands of years before Christ was so had no knowledge of him or god in the Christian sense, they're not Christians by any stretch as Christianity didnt exist at that point, so in gods eyes are they sinners for not believing in him? how could they when they had no idea of his existence?They worshipped multiple gods and deitys so by the logic that not acknowledging gods existence means you're a sinner, it seems a bit unfair that an entire civilisation is doomed because the religion that christians take to be the only one that matters didnt exist yet. Are we to assume that everyone pre the AD calendar is a sinner through no fault of their own?

If you're a Christian then yes, I think. Because of original sin everyone born before Jesus died on the cross couldn't get in to heaven. They either went to Hell or Purgatory or ceased to exist, not sure what the consensus is on that. Then Jesus went back up to heaven and since then any one that asked Jesus for salvation got to go to heaven.

(Does that sound about right Christians?)

santing

strobe wrote: »

If you're a Christian then yes, I think. Because of original sin everyone born before Jesus died on the cross couldn't get in to heaven. They either went to Hell or Purgatory or ceased to exist, not sure what the consensus is on that. Then Jesus went back up to heaven and since then any one that asked Jesus for salvation got to go to heaven.

(Does that sound about right Christians?)

No, the Old Testament is full of examples of people who were not Christians but still are saved. Many of them were Jews, but Job (2,500 years (?) before Christ) wasn't, neither was Noah, Ruth etc.

Although the atonement work of the Lord Jesus was the only enabler for mankind to be saved, He died "once for all," so His work also enables people before his time to be saved.

Job 19:25-27 I know that my Savior lives, and at the end he will stand on this earth. (26) My flesh may be destroyed, yet from this body I will see God. (27) Yes, I will see him for myself, and I long for that moment.

homer911

strobe wrote: »

If you're a Christian then yes, I think. Because of original sin everyone born before Jesus died on the cross couldn't get in to heaven. They either went to Hell or Purgatory or ceased to exist, not sure what the consensus is on that. Then Jesus went back up to heaven and since then any one that asked Jesus for salvation got to go to heaven.

(Does that sound about right Christians?)

A+, except of course that asking God for forgiveness/salvation needs to go hand in hand with repentance and a willingness to change

strobe

homer911 wrote: »

A+, except of course that asking God for forgiveness/salvation needs to go hand in hand with repentance and a willingness to change

What about the people that weren't saved, before Jesus. Did they go to Hell or Purgatory or what, and after Jesus was there a sort of retrospective salvation available for them? Could the ancient Greeks like in Krudler's example, after Jesus was resurected, then give themselves over to Jesus and get a transfer from Hell/Purgatory to Heaven?

Edit: Ahh I think Santing answered in regards to retrospective salvation. But where did the souls go inbetween death and salvation, and would that form of retrospective salvation exist nowadays for non-believers born after Jesus. Do Hindus for example get a chance to apply for a transfer (if you'll excuse the simplistic imagery) from Hell to Heaven once they find out that Christianity was the right religion?

PDN

strobe wrote: »

If you're a Christian then yes, I think. Because of original sin everyone born before Jesus died on the cross couldn't get in to heaven. They either went to Hell or Purgatory or ceased to exist, not sure what the consensus is on that. Then Jesus went back up to heaven and since then any one that asked Jesus for salvation got to go to heaven.

(Does that sound about right Christians?)

No, as usually happens when non-Christians try to answer on our behalf, it sounds totally wrong.

Christians believe that Abraham, Moses etc are in heaven - and they lived before Jesus.

krudler wrote:

Lets take pre-Christian people for example, take say, the Greeks. Around thousands of years before Christ was so had no knowledge of him or god in the Christian sense, they're not Christians by any stretch as Christianity didnt exist at that point, so in gods eyes are they sinners for not believing in him?

No, in God's eyes they are sinners for lying, cheating, stealing and the various other kinds of sin that humans like to commit.

santing

There is no option to choose after you die, you have to make up your mind before you die! (And I don't think there is an in between place... You are either in a place of blessing or in a place of punishment - both are everlasting conditions.)

Heb 9:27-28 CEV We die only once, and then we are judged. (28) So Christ died only once to take away the sins of many people. But when he comes again, it will not be to take away sin. He will come to save everyone who is waiting for him.

The Judge of all the earth willdo what is just..

Gen 18:23-26 ESV Then Abraham drew near and said, "Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? (24) Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? (25) Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?" (26) And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

God reveals Himself to everyone ...

Rom 1:17-21 ESV For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith." (18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (19) For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (21) For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

God gives each of us chance after chance to be saved from death and brought into the light that gives life.

Job 33:14-30 CEV God speaks in different ways, and we don't always recognize his voice. (15) Sometimes in the night, he uses terrifying dreams (16) to give us warnings. (17) God does this to make us turn from sin and pride (18) and to protect us from being swept away to the world of the dead. ... (29) God gives each of us chance after chance (30) to be saved from death and brought into the light that gives life.

Irlandese

To santing re all those nice quotes from your book:
I am a sucker for empirical evidence and the scientific method in whatever form that satisfies standard controls and conditions. I do not believe in magic or that suspension of normal enquiry or the practice of informed logic usually called "faith".
Of course we may also note that many relevant psychiatric professionals often feel quite obliged by science to declare anyone believing something like some of this quoted above or answering such voices etc in the manner proscribed to believers, as blamelessly suffering from a psychiatric illness. Mods, please note that I am not trying to be offensive here, merely understanding and open to helping re understanding.
Indeed, it may well be that in the future, the cummulative effects of growing public revulsion at catholic priest paedofilia and related financial and moral issues will result in a growing rejection of that particular religion, at least in it's present form.
Then, if the possible undermining of the alleged historical basis for current versions of the texts of various bibles is effected, as a result of the more detailed examination of texts previously hidden away, (if the church repositories can be encouraged to release access to same for authoritative, open scientific research perhaps in return for favourable treatment re perhaps abuse reparations?) as well as continued examination of the difficulties for the reliability of such versions posed by a fuller examination of the Dead Sea Scrolls, not just the very few sections that seem to in fact support current versions of just one book, of the old testament, of limited importance, then we might begin to approach a situation where such texts might be quoted with at least some perceived authority, as representing the accumulated beliefs of a significant number of citizens.
Until then, friends, we are probably, seriously still far from assured, definite non-fiction.

Fanny Cradock

Irlandese wrote: »

From what religious belief system are YOU quoting, when you say :
"Then you misunderstand the fundamentals of Christianity. According to it you aren't "doomed" for the thought-crime of not believing. Instead, you are given exactly what you want - a life without God. Nothing is being forced on anyone."
I am referring to the Roman Catholic Church when I remind you that the Canon Laws that established and guided the Inquisition, where non-believers were horribly tortured, raped or killed etc for the "crime" of non belief ( they used other words, mind ), are still in force and the RC Church refused to rescind same while the present pope was the head of the office responsible for said Inquisition.
Just trying to clarify.

Christianity. I would have thought this was obvious That Christendom was responsible for some terrible acts is not of relevance to this thread. We are talking about what happens to non-believers and therefore assuming that God exists.

strobe

PDN wrote: »

No, as usually happens when non-Christians try to answer on our behalf, it sounds totally wrong.

Christians believe that Abraham, Moses etc are in heaven - and they lived before Jesus.

(I wasn't trying to answer on your behalf, was just stating what my (and presumably some other christians seeing as Homer agreed with me) understanding was.)

Ok so then it wasn't actually necessary for Jesus to come to Earth and die for our sins (original sin?) for people to get into heaven? Like Moses and Abraham, as long as you worship God and live by his rules, as they stand at that particular time, Jesus is irrelevant? Or were Moses, Abraham Noah and co special cases because they were in direct contact with God? Or was there a change in the entry qualifications after the coming of Jesus?

But the ancient Greeks or other peoples that hadn't heard of Yahweh all went to Hell? Or were they retrospectively saved by the coming of Jesus. If so where did their souls reside in the few thousand years in between their death and the coming of Jesus. If they were does the same salvation not apply to peoples nowadays that have never heard of Yahweh or Jesus?

Edit: Just using Greeks as that was Krudlers example. Insert Indus civilisation, ancient China ect

Irlandese

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Christianity. I would have thought this was obvious That Christendom was responsible for some terrible acts is not of relevance to this thread. We are talking about what happens to non-believers and therefore assuming that God exists.

I had asked:
From what religious belief system are YOU quoting, when you say :
"Then you misunderstand the fundamentals of Christianity. According to it you aren't "doomed" for the thought-crime of not believing. Instead, you are given exactly what you want - a life without God. Nothing is being forced on anyone."
In replying now, after some thought, that you are speaking from a christian viewpoint, do I take it that you see that the Roman catholic position re forcing people to believe or torture/rape/kill them as in the inquisition ( albeit done differently nowadays, we hope) is very different to what is believed in other christian religions? Like which?