Pro-car bias on Infrastructure forum?

etchyed

To begin, let me acknowledge that I'm a newbie round here. I have, however, been reading these boards for quite a long time.

Since the transfer of all the road scheme threads here, it seems to me that Commuting and Transport and Infrastructure are essentially functioning as Public Transport and Roads forums respectively. The members who post on these forums do overlap somewhat but posters here seem to generally be pro-road building, pro-car and rarely is there any debate on the merit of all the road building that's going on in this country at the moment.

This often leads to bizarre pro-car statements that are left unquestioned as they are simply part of the culture on this board. One example that springs to mind is on a recent thread discussing the lack of road-building projects in the UK, a poster said something to the effect of "they expect you to take trains over there." As if that was somehow bizarre!

Another example is the current Slane bypass thread. I agree it should be built but the tone of disdain towards those who don't is actually quite shocking in my opinion.

Compare this to C&T, where the lack of investment in rail and the long-fingering of public transport projects such as DART Underground are often bemoaned.

There seems to be a large contingent of posters here who want new roads with shiny blue signs and don't really question the necessity for them. Personally I quite like the shiny blue signs too and I do find it quite exciting that we're going to have a proper motorway network by the end of the year. On the other hand I find the state of public transport in this country depressing. There seems to be a gulf of opinion on this, with few people in the middle. It's a shame that the structure of boards (unintentionally) facilitates the widening of this gulf. As far as I can tell, people stick to their own area of interest.

I realise that there are a good deal of exceptions to what I've described above, one of which is the stickying of the DART Underground thread here but I'm talking about the general overall picture. I also realise that the very fact that so many roads are being built means that it's inevitable this forum will be very roads-heavy. Basically, this isn't a meant as a criticism of mods, just a general observation of a trend that has developed.

Sponge Bob

etchyed wrote: »

There seems to be a large contingent of posters here who want new roads with shiny blue signs and don't really question the necessity for them. Personally I quite like the shiny blue signs too and I do find it quite exciting that we're going to have a proper motorway network by the end of the year.

I am on record as saying ...probably in commuting....that this particular forum is "obsessed" with roads. I would further observe that many if not most posters contribute on no other infrastructural topics.

I have wondered what will happen to this forum when roads spending fall completely off a cliff in 2011 when it is due to halve outright.

And I have really really tried to poke them into a wider understanding of infrastructure but I am probably doomed to failure and so is the forum itself

L1011

If people have no interest in wider areas of infrastructure, they aren't gonna post on them. Nothing you can do to change that.

fricatus

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I would further observe that many if not most posters contribute on no other infrastructural topics.

I admit that I would probably fall into that category myself, but I would think the reason is simply that I (like many others) am really only interested in the infrastructure that will affect me - hence why I would post mostly in threads related to the Waterford bypass (while it was being built) and the M9.

I would love to be commenting on rail infrastructure, but where I live, there is simply none being built. I would love to be commenting on public transport improvements in my area, but I see none happening - and I'm not in some isolated rural area; I live in a suburb of around 10,000 people.

Also, I know that there is often huge clamour here for better roads, but when you look at the standard of what we have, compared to similar countries across Europe, I think you can understand that. While I regret what's happening to rail in this country, I don't think our road investment is therefore unnecessary - look at Germany or Switzerland to see how the two are far from incompatible.

Something I have noticed though - and this may be something you're driving at - is that as soon as anyone puts forward any sort of idea on rail outside of Dublin, it's immediately greeted by howls of derision from the gallery: "if you build it, they will come :rolleyes:", "packed lunches and flasks of tea", "pensioners", "two trains a year: one to go to the match and the other to come back" and other patronising and insulting comments. It would be nice if we could just discuss rail projects with reference to the facts, rather than by people resorting to constant cheap jibes.

wellbutty

People can relate more easily to road/rail construction as opposed to electricity/gas/wind farms/broadband/nuclear etc. Personally I wouldn't comment on a thread relating to any of these topics, I'd rather read the opinions of people that appear to know what they're talking about!

The reality of this country is that we're pro-car and this is reflected on boards. I think the condition of our roads in the past and the excitement and pride of having a few decent motorways in our country may also explain the bias here.

csd

Another possible explanation of the heavy car focus is the fact that while there is an established forum for the discussion of railways (IRN), there wasn't anything similar for Irish roads. That, coupled with the huge levels of activity in the road building programme meant Infrastructure was almost destined to focus on roads.

As SpongeBob said, it'll be a lot quieter on the roads front starting from next year, but there should be a corresponding increase in activity on rail-related projects. It would be good to see more discussion of DART Underground, the city centre resignalling (DASH 2), Clonsilla - Pace, etc.

/csd

Zoney

Regardless of my interest in roads, I do indeed have an interest in railways for example - but there is not as much to discuss there in terms of infrastructure developments!

I don't think the current high level of discussion of roads should be surprising or a problem, it's understandable given the amount of development even yet going on.

munchkin_utd

To be fair its a well spotted point that most of the posts on Infrastructure are about roads.
I wouldnt put it down to a pro car agenda though, or anti public transport.

It's more to do with the fact that there really are an awful lot of roads projects underway, and an awful lot of uncertainty in the future of the dozens of planned projects in every corner of the country.
So theres a lot to talk about on the concrete projects and a massive amount to speculate about on the ones that arent yet 100% definitely going ahead.

i do agree that maybe there should be more publicity about the developments in things like sewerage and public water supply. During the celtic tiger times almost every town across the country had EU funding signs about sewerage and the total spending was massive, over a billion Euros if I am correct.

The one BIG difference about a roads project, unlike sewerage projects, is that it benefits people from way outside the area where it is being built.
Therefore on a countrywide fourm, you will find a much higher interest and post level on a bypass of a random place in the midlands costing a couple of million, than on a sewerage plant being replaced there at a cost of 200million.

Honestly, who across the 4 million who live in Ireland really care if say Abbyleix has its sewerage plant replaced? Maybe the people who live there so thats 0.05% of the population of the country.
But if there's a bypass planned of this small town that happens to cost people a half hour or more driving between the 2 biggest cities in the Republic, how many posts will that get?
Indeed. An awful lot more.

Amtmann

I wish all of you guys (including your good self, etchyed) would copy all your posts above to this thread to keep the idea alive at least!

The forum is road obsessed, but not uncritically so. You'd still get a lot of opposition to proposals for an M24 or an M72 (and even the M9), for instance. Also, I suspect for a lot of people it isn't so much cars that they're rooting for as the roads themselves. I know it's... er, unusual, but cars themselves are very rarley mentioned around here - instead the road as an engineering feat is often the subject of great interest. In addition, connectivity and SAFETY in transport are major themes here.

There has been only one anti-road poster here over the years - Lennoxeschips - but he's gone now. I actually wish he'd come back.

And while there might appear to be a bias, it isn't deliberate. It's just that all posters here are generally pro road-building. There's no conspiracy to keep others out. They can come in if they want.

Tech3

Zoney wrote: »

I don't think the current high level of discussion of roads should be surprising or a problem, it's understandable given the amount of development even yet going on.

Yeah and we are never going to see the amount of motorways being built like this again in this country so we may as well record the progress while construction is ongoing. The threads on here stand as historical reference to how the Irish road network has been developed here over the last few years certainly the motorway network anyway.

It's really up to posters interests what threads they decide to discuss the mods cant just force them to be interested in other aspects of infrastructure. We have stickied some good non road related threads which have attracted more traffic.

fresca

my opinion would also reflect a lot of the comment here.
because of my location, my work commute and the regular journeys i make i don't have the choice of public transport. i wish i had.

whenever i am in dublin i always use the luas, dart & buses.
same for other cities i travel to for business or pleasure - i always prioritise public transport ... for the basic reason that i like to see how other cities / countries do it there.

i agree with your sentiment about car-based infrastructure dominating this forum, but the reality in my life is that public transport is not available to me (without changing my location, my job etc).

I would really like to see Luas equivalent projects in Cork, Limerick and Galway. Maybe there are threads on here for these projects already? (to be honest i haven't searched). If not, then perhaps these are suggestions for threads.

Yours in a car-centric society, etc...

spacetweek

csd wrote: »

As SpongeBob said, it'll be a lot quieter on the roads front starting from next year, but there should be a corresponding increase in activity on rail-related projects. It would be good to see more discussion of DART Underground, the city centre resignalling (DASH 2), Clonsilla - Pace, etc.

/csd

I do agree there's loads of road discussion going on, but that's where the lion's share of the investment in transport that we have right now is going.

Speaking of DASH 2, I was googling it yesterday but it was pretty shocking how little info there is. Just this page, written by an illiterate, and with a mailing address given at the bottom - no phone number or email! Is this 1990 or 2010? There was also the Transport21 page on it, but it seems to be a regurgitation.

Does anyone here have any info? This is a very important project.

KevR

For me personally, I do contribute more to the road threads than other types of infrastructure. It's mainly because I use roads on a daily basis when going about my business and driving is also one of my hobbies.

I am interested in other types of infrastructure though. I read all the threads about fibre/telecomms, rail, water supply...etc with great interest but I wouldn't really be knowledgeable enough to contribute on a regular basis like I do with roads.

I'm really fascinated by rail but there isn't really a lot happening with rail in Ireland. I'm probably more clued up about rail in the UK than rail in Ireland. I visit the UK a lot and use the trains frequently over there, while in Ireland I have only used the train on a handful of occasions over the past 4/5 years. Whenever I use public transport here, it's nearly always the bus (which relies on good roads).

To be honest, it's no wonder some pro-road people are anti-public transport. You have self-appointed environmentalists like Peter Sweetman who are holding up important road projects (which would save lives, ease congestion and boost economic activity). 72,000 people living in Galway City, 28,000 commuting in everyday - most of those 100,000 people would be very resentful of Sweetman and his fellow environmentalists for holding up the Galway Bypass. It's basically a handful of people who are objecting to the Bypass that are stopping 100,000 people from having a pretty big improvement in the quality of their lives. Nobody here is ever going to support the light rail system Sweetman is proposing out of spite. My spite aside, I don't think it's a great solution/alternative to building the Bypass; the Bypass would need to be done first, then look at improving the bus system in Galway and maybe in the future look at a tram system when Galway has grown a bit more.

munchkin_utd

Galway though could be seen as a great example of where maybe a pro road bias in government and society though is rearing its head.

People (not cars) need to get from the west side of town to the east side where a lot of the jobs are.
Public transport is utterly crap so everyone drives. When everyone drives then theres massive traffic jams. How could it be otherwise?

You could argue that its a very car centric focus, that people on these boards and society in general doesn't see providing a viable public transport link across town as a solution.
The 500 million supposedly should go on a road. And if that gets clogged THEN think about a public transport option!!!

fresca

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Galway though could be seen as a great example of where maybe a pro road bias in government and society though is rearing its head.

People (not cars) need to get from the west side of town to the east side where a lot of the jobs are.
Public transport is utterly crap so everyone drives. When everyone drives then theres massive traffic jams. How could it be otherwise?

You could argue that its a very car centric focus, that people on these boards and society in general doesn't see providing a viable public transport link across town as a solution.
The 500 million supposedly should go on a road. And if that gets clogged THEN think about a public transport option!!!

I would love to see a light rail system in Galway.
I think that a light rail system would be ideally suited to the city.

KevR

In Galway though, it's not just public transport which is aweful; the roads are really aweful too. We have the same roads that we had over 20 years ago, they aren't fit for purpose. Imagine Dublin without the M50 or Cork without the SRR! I'm all for huge improvements to public transport here but I don't think that improvements to public transport alone will solve the traffic/transport problems faced in the City. The road network has to be improved also; there has to be a mix of both. In my honest opinion, it will be a lot easier to greatly improve public transport if we first remove a lot of traffic from the City by building the Bypass. Until the Bypass is built, there won't be any space for bus lanes and nobody could justify closing off streets for trams.

I'm pro-road, but I'm not anti-public transport. The likes of Peter Sweetman an Co. are pro-public transport and completely anti-road. This biased attitude will get them and their public transport ideas nowhere, people will only resent them.

BluntGuy

I think there was a thread either here or on C&T discussing a possible Luas Proposal for Cork. And then there's Gluas.

I think some discussion on that might be good.

DART Underground, I'd love to see more discussion, but until we get the Railway Order and reference drawings, there isn't much more that can be discussed, we just wait for further tidbits to fuel our speculation.

Metro North I was meaning to make a thread on. I'd like a good big thread for it.

Simply put though, I think as a forum, our collective knowledge on other infrastructure, will probably increase as time goes by and we seek new discussions. I mean, part of why I think roads are discussed (and a few people have mentioned this) are because everyone can offer something on them, you don't need lots of knowledge. Most people can relate to rail and roads, so let's get some more rail threads in here.

Another topic of interest, that could do with more attention is flood infrastructure, I know there was a thread or two and I'd like to dig them back up. Because regardless of the specifics of it, I think everyone wonders "how well prepared are we?". What flood defenses do you have locally? I mean, there's a lot that can be discussed without having to actually know TONNES about the infrastructure, that knowledge can be developed in time. How bout civic infrastructure like schools and hospitals? No expert knowledge required there to offer an opinion on them.

That's only scratching the surface of what we could discuss here, and I think these are interesting topics that we just need to get ourselves engaged with more. I think part of the reason people don't post is that they don't feel they'll even get a reply, so maybe if we all made a bit more effort to offer an opinion, it'd have a positive impact.

Those would be my suggestions, other than that, this forum will remain road-biased for the foreseeable future. Roads are the most prominent form of infrastructure being constructed at the moment. If and when MN and DART Underground start, after the road buzz dies down, you can bet that big discussions on those will take place.

Dublin Airport and Lansdowne Road also have sizeable threads.

I think this is a great forum with intelligent, interesting people, and together we can develop new discussions and broaden our range. I have confidence that this is what will happen over time.

fresca

KevR wrote: »

... but I don't think that improvements to public transport alone will solve the traffic/transport problems faced in the City. The road network has to be improved also; there has to be a mix of both.

Fair comment KevR!!
This applies not alone to Galway, but our island in its entirety.

Irish and Proud

etchyed wrote: »

To begin, let me acknowledge that I'm a newbie round here. I have, however, been reading these boards for quite a long time.

Since the transfer of all the road scheme threads here, it seems to me that Commuting and Transport and Infrastructure are essentially functioning as Public Transport and Roads forums respectively. The members who post on these forums do overlap somewhat but posters here seem to generally be pro-road building, pro-car and rarely is there any debate on the merit of all the road building that's going on in this country at the moment.

This often leads to bizarre pro-car statements that are left unquestioned as they are simply part of the culture on this board. One example that springs to mind is on a recent thread discussing the lack of road-building projects in the UK, a poster said something to the effect of "they expect you to take trains over there." As if that was somehow bizarre!

Another example is the current Slane bypass thread. I agree it should be built but the tone of disdain towards those who don't is actually quite shocking in my opinion.

Compare this to C&T, where the lack of investment in rail and the long-fingering of public transport projects such as DART Underground are often bemoaned.

There seems to be a large contingent of posters here who want new roads with shiny blue signs and don't really question the necessity for them. Personally I quite like the shiny blue signs too and I do find it quite exciting that we're going to have a proper motorway network by the end of the year. On the other hand I find the state of public transport in this country depressing. There seems to be a gulf of opinion on this, with few people in the middle. It's a shame that the structure of boards (unintentionally) facilitates the widening of this gulf. As far as I can tell, people stick to their own area of interest.

I realise that there are a good deal of exceptions to what I've described above, one of which is the stickying of the DART Underground thread here but I'm talking about the general overall picture. I also realise that the very fact that so many roads are being built means that it's inevitable this forum will be very roads-heavy. Basically, this isn't a meant as a criticism of mods, just a general observation of a trend that has developed.

...they are fair enough points!

I would probably sound like one of the most extreme pro-car posters, but it's not that I'm so pro-car, it's just that I totally resent people like mostly foreign "eco/heritage" activists trying to dictate how we should live our lives in Ireland - I see their aggression as an act of war on this state!

Also, people like Frank McDonald get far too much publicity - I remember him in the 1990's when he screamed out anti-car BS. AFAIK, he did walk to work - a massive trek from Temple Bar to where the Irish Times were in D-Olier Street - if this is correct, one can see how easy it is to bash motorists when you don't have any commuting to do - I wouldn't consider a short stroll as commuting.

In fact, I have to commute about 30 miles to work and I get the bus, train and even walk - I will have actually clocked about 4 miles on foot today. I now learning to drive, but I'll only be car commuting for the first 3 miles to the station, where I'll get a train for most of the way and then walk the final 2 miles. I now use rural transport for the short trip to the bus/train, but I'm one of the few people who actually uses this service, so it probably won't last - even if I had my driving, I'd still try and use it! In any case, the commute is pretty hard work, wheter it's by bus, train, car, cycling (I know plenty about that!) or foot (good exercise though).

Now about transport in general, my view is that there is a vital place for both public and private transport in our society. IMO, buses should get priorty on the motorways near cities during the morning rush, while the motorways would revert to serving mostly private transport for the rest of the day. For example, I'm of the view that the M1 urgently needs widening to a dual 3 lane motorway in from Lissenhall (J4), but the extra lane (on the inside) should only be used for buses and freight traffic from about 6am to 10am weekdays. These 3 lanes (each way) should operate normally at any other time. I also think that roads like the M1 should be 130kph (only off peak near Dublin) while single deck buses might be allowed travel at 90kph.

Regarding rail, the Dart Interconnector should be made a priority, while the LUAS network should be expanded - I sometimes use the Green Line and I have to say, it's great - the way public transport should be in cities. I'm not sure about Metro North - should it be a longer term objective? - I'm undecided.

Finally, I would be disgusted if any of our major heritage sites were destroyed, but we simply can't keep every little piece of the past around every little corner - I'm not suggesting that you are of that opinion, but I'm just stating that common sense has to apply. IMO, your post is pretty much common sense as well - but poses good questions that have to be answered! In doing so, I'm stating that even if posts such as mine are extreme, it may be directed at one particular aspect, like those mentioned in the first 2 paragraphs.

Good Post Mate!

Regards!

fresca

BluntGuy wrote: »

I think there was a thread either here or on C&T discussing a possible Luas Proposal for Cork. And then there's Gluas.

I think some discussion on that might be good.

One item that I think would be worth a discussion...

This is a personal opinion - i'm not for one moment suggesting that it is a social norm here or in any country - but the impression i get is that people prefer to use metropolitan rail systems that metropolitan bus networks.

Why do you think this is? is there some sort of social transport "class-system" at play? are metro rail systems perceived as being cooler or more up-market than metro bus systems?

This comment is soley is based on experiences in dublin, london, paris, etc, etc, etc.

BluntGuy

fresca wrote: »

This comment is soley is based on experiences in dublin, london, paris, etc, etc, etc.

That's definitely a curious question. I mean, given a choice between a cheaper, and possibly more frequent bus, and waiting for a train, why do most pick the train is an interesting question.

However, I think in many cases, if a train system works as it's meant to, it'll get you from A to B, quicker than a bus, and that's probably the reason for a lot of people.

ForiegnNational

fresca wrote: »

people prefer to use metropolitan rail systems that metropolitan bus networks.

Why do you think this is? is there some sort of social transport "class-system" at play? are metro rail systems perceived as being cooler or more up-market than metro bus systems?.

The simple answer to your question is traffic lights....

Buses have to obey traffic lights at nearly all junctions. The exception being dedicated left/right turn bus only lanes OR the City in which they are running is advanced enough to have on-board traffic light transponders as per fire fighters / ambulances in London.

Metro rail / Luas systems do not have to stop as frequently as buses. In addition, the spacing between stations is usually greater than the distance between bus stops, thereby speeding up the journey.

Compare a 10 mile journey in a major City like London in taking a Bus versus Metro Rail. Train/Tram/Luas will be within 20 minutes for this distance , compared to potentially over an hour on the bus (basing this on my previous life commuting in London)

For the record, Furet started this tread on Cork Luas on C&T

BluntGuy

ForiegnNational wrote: »

For the record, Furet started this tread on Cork Luas on C&T

Ah, so he did.

I think perhaps an expanded discussion on Luas for Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford could be created here.

While I wouldn't think the latter three would be viable, and would even question the second, it would still make for an interesting speculative discussion.

Tech3

BluntGuy wrote: »

I think perhaps an expanded discussion on Luas for Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford could be created here.

While I wouldn't think the latter three would be viable, and would even question the second, it would still make for an interesting speculative discussion.

Great idea for a thread. I have always been thinking would any of those cities be viable for a light rail system. Some cities would be more suitable to this than others given better access for track.

marmurr1916

fresca wrote: »

One item that I think would be worth a discussion...

This is a personal opinion - i'm not for one moment suggesting that it is a social norm here or in any country - but the impression i get is that people prefer to use metropolitan rail systems that metropolitan bus networks.

Why do you think this is? is there some sort of social transport "class-system" at play? are metro rail systems perceived as being cooler or more up-market than metro bus systems?

This comment is soley is based on experiences in dublin, london, paris, etc, etc, etc.

In a word - traffic!

Speaking from experience of London, the tube is much, much quicker.

On one route I'm familiar with it takes approx. one hour to travel into central London by bus - and that's if the traffic isn't bad.

Going by bus (10 mins connection) then tube for the rest of the way takes about 35 minutes.

I hope that Dublin, if and when it finally gets its integrated ticketing system, copies London's Oyster card system.

And yes, there is a pro-car, pro-roads bias on Infrastructure. Hence the suggestion that there be a dedicated Roads Forum.

Stark

BluntGuy wrote: »

That's definitely a curious question. I mean, given a choice between a cheaper, and possibly more frequent bus, and waiting for a train, why do most pick the train is an interesting question.

Years of bad experiences with buses. Given the choice between a train that's scheduled every 20 mins but will show up every 20 mins and a bus that's scheduled every 10 mins but might only show up every 2nd or 3rd interval, I'll opt for the train for peace of mind. That said, I'm not totally intransigent. For example, I've been won over by the 145 service to Bray and will now opt for that every time over the more expensive and unreliable Dart service. Similarly, I'll opt for the 91 from Heuston instead of the Luas now that they have the bus lanes all along the quays. However, both those routes use the best bus corridors in Dublin. Other bus routes still suffer from reliability and journey time issues. At least with the train, you can see from the displays that your train is still due to arrive in 15 mins and if it's delayed, you'll be informed that it's delayed.

On the roads vs rail front, I'm definitely not a total petrol head but in my opinion, rail makes more sense in the UK than Ireland due to more concentrated population centres. The Western Rail Corridor would be a great thing if it provided a high speed service that concentrated solely on Limerick, Cork and Galway. When it's trying to service towns with miniscule populations along the route and taking 6 hours as a result, then a road (which we're building anyway) does a better job at being all things to all people imo. I think we can justify a few key rail projects like the Navan rail-line, Cork-Midleton, intercity lines and the metropolitan lines (Metro North etc.), but I don't think we can justify a full rail network.

etchyed

Thank you all for replying to the newb's post. As I acknowledged in my post, I do understand that the amount of road-building inevitably leads to more road-building discussion. And I agree you can't make people post on topics that don't interest them/don't affect them.

I suppose in starting this thread I was stating the obvious. Truth be told, it was probably a delayed reaction to some unreasonable posts I've seen around the place in the last few months. Anyway, I've registered now and I'll be there to bring people up on them if I see any more in future.

csd

BluntGuy wrote: »

That's definitely a curious question. I mean, given a choice between a cheaper, and possibly more frequent bus, and waiting for a train, why do most pick the train is an interesting question.

However, I think in many cases, if a train system works as it's meant to, it'll get you from A to B, quicker than a bus, and that's probably the reason for a lot of people.

I'd almost always pick the train, for a number of reasons:

1. In urban areas, unless you're going from the terminus or on a really frequent route, it's usually impossible to tell when your bus is due. The timetables are almost useless in this respect, so I'm really looking forward to real-time bus information becoming available in Dublin.
2. The train is usually more comfortable, less lurching around the place. On longer journeys you can get up and stretch your legs.
3. If you're in a strange place, it's much easier to work out where you are with a train and know when exactly when to get out. Even if you can work out what road you're on with a bus, it's not always obvious which stop to get off for a particular landmark.

/csd

Sponge Bob

ALL of these light rail projects originated from one person named Brian Guckian whose "special thread" is no longer visible ( unless the mods can see it....can you mods ???? ) . I did ask Victor for temp special access to it to pull some data off.

As the proposals come from Brian Guckian they may not be viewed in isolation from the Brian Guckian Railway Mega Master Plan which is available here and is a real eye opener

The master plan contains this map. Brian intends to rebuild the whole network back to where it was in 1910 , 100 years ago. Even the shaggin Lartigue :eek: