Luas for Cork: get the crayons out!

Amtmann · 16-12-2008 1:35am #1

I couldn't find another thread on this, so I said I'd start one.

Bearing in mind:

1) the new commuting train improvements due to come on stream (Blarney to Midleton etc., and the new Dunkettle station);
2) the volume of commuters coming into Cork from the west (Bandon, etc);
3) plus the resident population, not to mention Douglas, Mahon, Eagle Valley etc.;
4) an ever more congested south ring road;
5) a growing student population;
6) projected population increases

is a LUAS for Cork justifiable? Obviously not on a Dublinesque scale, but on a more limited level.

It seems to me that a LUAS for Cork would have to pass by, or close to, Dunkettle, Mahon, Douglas, Wilton, Bishopstown, UCC, Bus Station, Kent Station. I'd envisage the line going down College Road and Barrack Street (which would obviously be made a car-free zone) towards the centre from UCC. Or, perhaps, towards the centre along Western Road.

Anyone care to get their crayons out and design a line? What type of operating hours and frequency would you run a Cork LUAS at?

invincibleirish · 16-12-2008 1:44am

I think there is a thread here and one on the old P11 boards which went into some level of detail.

My own simple plan would be have a rough alignment: Ballincollig-CIT-Bishopstown/Wilton/CUH-UCC-Grand Parade/Pt St-Bus Station-Kent-North Docklands-South Docklands-Douglas-Mahon

Cork Councils putting together City transport review over past few months i believe, light rail being considered apparently as well as trolley buses?, the previous review ruled out light rail for but Cork City Co. are seemingly working towards developing a City Centre-Mahon axis for such a project.

Putting in a LUAS line like above would mean you could completely overhaul bus services as so many direct An Lar/South Mall services would not be needed and could be used as feeder services for sprawl like Ballincollig/Wilton & Douglas/Mahon.

Then you could ban or congestion charge the city centre.

Its great to dream.

bill_ashmount · 16-12-2008 11:45am

I'd be happy with a proper bus system and a few cycle lanes.

Amtmann · 16-12-2008 11:57am

You won't get a proper bus system until the number of cars on the roads falls markedly, particularly along routes where commuter traffic enters the city (e.g. Wilton Road/Dennehy's Cross etc.). Busses in Cork are slow. Supply a LUAS and ban cars from the City Centre and approaching streets/roads and bus/tram usage will take over.

thejuggler · 16-12-2008 12:00pm

Not going to happen any time soon. A more cost effective and faster resolution would be to redraw the bus routes so that they don't do cross city journeys.
If the existing buses we have were to run from the edge of the city centre to the suburbs that they serve the route frequency would improve dramatically.

The biggest disincentive regarding bus services in Cork is that the waiting time is too long on most routes. Also the city bus network should include all suburbs. Places like Blarney and Ballincollig are now effectively City suburbs and passengers should pay a city bus fare.

A Luas would be nice but even in celtic tiger days we didn't have a hope of getting one. Even the plan to open the railway stations at Kilbarry and Blarney is on the long finger. If the Midleton Railway project was not as advanced when Amgen pulled the plug it too would have been mothballed. A better bus service is the only hope in the short to medium term.
However there is neither the will nor the inclination in union driven bus eireann to change anything for the better. Putting a double decker on the Ballincollig route is their biggest innovation in the last decade.

Blitzkrieger · 16-12-2008 12:27pm

Corks too small for a light railway. Both in terms of population and the size of the streets. Parking levys + ParkNRide ftw.....

fastrac · 16-12-2008 12:43pm

I attended a meeting of the Blarney Historical Society recently and they had the plans of all the old tramlines and railways in the city.Trams running from Blackpool to Blackrock via City centre.Superb picture of The Muskerry Tram going past a Sundays Well tram at Victoria Cross,No need for new plans just work around the old plans and save millions

E92 · 16-12-2008 2:14pm

Never mind the size of Cork - the city's streets are too narrow in many places for a bus lane in even one never mind 2 directions, so how the hell are we going to find space for a tram as well

?

That's why we will never have a Luas in Cork.

I'd love to see an underground system though, but I don't think we have the population for it. I also don't turst our ability to plan either - if we were ever to get something like this we need to get Germans and let them design it whatever way they want cause they'll do it right and it will actually work.

Wallacebiy · 16-12-2008 2:31pm

Electric, articulated buses .

Far cheaper to install , less damage to roads and infrastucture and away you go . Much more sensible plan . Luas is a dogs dinner in my opinion

invincibleirish · 16-12-2008 2:33pm

E92 wrote: »

the city's streets are too narrow in many places for a bus lane in even one never mind 2 directions, so how the hell are we going to find space for a tram as well?

Find space by closing off streets to private traffic? using the alignment i outlined above you are essentially losing roadspace in Ballincollig/Curraheen Rd/Western Rd/College Rd/Grand Parade/South Mall then moving onto a new alignment using proposed developments in the Docklands and accompanying bridges with it, then back onto the roads down into Douglas village.

You'd be closing some streets and reducing the capacity of others.

Dont think Cork is too small for a LUAS, Angers in France has a similar metropolitan population and they've just announced a light rail line for their City.

Given 80% plus of the City's population is on the southside then one line is all that would really be needed to completely change the cities commuting habits.

bill_ashmount · 16-12-2008 3:10pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

Given 80% plus of the City's population is on the southside then one line is all that would really be needed to completely change the cities commuting habits.

:eek: Is this accurate? I wouldn't have thought it was that lob-sided.

invincibleirish · 16-12-2008 3:30pm

bill_ashmount wrote: »

:eek: Is this accurate? I wouldn't have thought it was that lob-sided.

I believe it is as defined by adding up all population inside and outside the city Boundaries, so Carrigaline etc. would be included.

The larger Cork urban area has anywhere between 1/4 and a 1/3 of a million of people. There is enough people to make light railway feasible, its just a question of whether the Councils plan well enough to encourage development.

The original CASP plan was a roaring success on the roads side, but meant the city was depopulated whilst the the commuter belt swelled. Any future transport plans for the city should take into account utilising the Docklands as imo thats the only way funding will ever be achieved for light rail in the city.

pure speculation of course, as mentioned the biggest innovations in Cork public transport in the 21st Centruy are in order: 1) new 13km railway line(delayed),2) hourly trains to Dublin, 3) return of the doubledeckers and a a couple of new routes(none of which have 7 day timetables:rolleyes:). So Cork is a million miles away from being a public transport friendly city.

Typewriter · 16-12-2008 7:15pm

I'm with the Greens on this although I would have a second line going from Airport-Grange-Douglas-City Centre-Blackpool-Glanmire. And maybe extend the Mahon line to Carrigaline via Mount Oval. West Cork should have a proper broad-gauge rail line.

Amtmann · 16-12-2008 8:01pm

green_jesus wrote: »

I'm with the Greens on this although I would have a second line going from Airport-Grange-Douglas-City Centre-Blackpool-Glanmire.

Agreed.

What about operating hours folks?

DWCommuter · 16-12-2008 11:34pm

Relax folks. Recession is going to do the job for us. Just watch as congestion eases in our cities and towns as people have no job to which they can drive to. McWilliams hasn't spotted that one yet, so I'm claiming it. You heard it here first!;)

markpb · 17-12-2008 11:56am

The best crayons anyone could use would be ones used to draw pictures of new politicians who understand the need to plan for the long term, not the next election.

bill_ashmount · 17-12-2008 4:08pm

invincibleirish wrote: »

I believe it is as defined by adding up all population inside and outside the city Boundaries, so Carrigaline etc. would be included.

Hmm, then surely Blarney and Glanmire need to be included in the Northside projections. It just seems massively overbalanced to me to say 80-20, although saying that I don't have accurate figures to hand.

schween · 17-12-2008 4:17pm

There's a plan like this in motion for Galway. The GLUAS they're calling it. It would be great if it was built but I very much doubt it will. In this country the policy is to build houses as far as the eye can see and then try get yourself out of a mess. If they built rail, and then medium or high density accommodation around it...but hey then our councillors wouldn't have anything to bicker over in our council chambers

Ckal · 17-12-2008 4:52pm

Random question. But would a tram "on stilts" be cheaper than digging up roads etc? And would it be viable for Cork?

dowlingm · 17-12-2008 4:54pm

Well, there could have been a light rail line through Blackrock and Mahon if they didn't pedestrianise the old line and throw a sewer line down it.

corktina · 17-12-2008 5:21pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Well, there could have been a light rail line through Blackrock and Mahon if they didn't pedestrianise the old line and throw a sewer line down it.

closed for how many years now? 70 is it? I think an alternative use, no, hold hard TWO alternative uses is quite justified much as the romantic trainspotter inme would love to see the Cork Blackrock and passage line (and all the otehrs) reopened:D

invincibleirish · 17-12-2008 6:08pm

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Hmm, then surely Blarney and Glanmire need to be included in the Northside projections. It just seems massively overbalanced to me to say 80-20, although saying that I don't have accurate figures to hand.

Using 2002 CSO figures, Cork City NW & NE have just under 50k of an official pop. of nearly 125k. southside/northside breakdown would be around 66/33, but when adding in burbs like Glanmire & Blarney to the North and Carrigaline/Passage West, Ballincollig, bits of Douglas/Bishopstown/Togher etc to the south, it would push the ratio close to the 80/20 mark in favour of the enlarged southside.

dowlingm · 17-12-2008 6:48pm

corktina - how many years was the Harcourt line closed for again?

corktina · 17-12-2008 6:54pm

only about 40 id say...:D totally different scenario...:cool:

snubbleste · 17-12-2008 9:59pm

The CLUAS

jaffa20 · 17-12-2008 10:09pm

I drew a map for the new luas in cork

Judgement Day · 18-12-2008 12:05am

Of course a tram/light rail system for Cork would be a good idea but it will never happen with the useless politicians you have down there. Look how long it took to get a partial re-opening of the Youghal line which first proposed in the Cork Land Use & Transportation Study of 1978! The Midleton reopening is proving so expensive that it will probably put off any prospect of further railway development in the Cork area. The line from Midleton was still passed for passenger traffic as recently as 1988 but due to CIE/IEs unique interpretation of the concept of 'mothballing' it ended up little better than a cart track. I wish you luck.

namloc1980 · 11-07-2009 11:04am

Bored so I decided to get the crayons out. Here's my idea for a tram line in Cork:

Going from Left to right (west to east)

Start at CIT and come in along the Model Farm Road. It would be possible to extend the line to Ballincollig from here in future. Turn down the Wilton Road at Dennehy's Cross. A spur line could be built here to serve CUH and Bishopstown. A stop at Victoria Cross and onto the Western Road with a stop at the Mardyke. Onto a stop at the gates of UCC. Continue in the Western Road and onto Washington Street.

Stop at the Courthouse. Down Washington Street and swing onto the Grand Parade with a stop there. Down the South Mall and over the City Hall Bridge with a stop there - 2 minute walk from the Bus Station. Down the quay to Albert Quay.

Down Centre Park Rad with a stop at Docklands to cater for the 'future' Docklands development. Further stops at Centre Park Road and Páirc Uí Chaoimh. The line would then use the old Blackrock Railway line with stops at Blackrock Village, the new Eden development, the CSO and terminate at Mahon Point.

The line covers many high people traffic places such as: CIT, Model Farm Road IDA estate, Victoria Cross, UCC, City Centre, South Mall, Páirc Uí Chaoimh, Mahon Point. The line would be approx 11.5km in total.

It could link to a future second line from Blackpool to Douglas via the city centre.

Anyway just put it together for fun because there's no political will to sort out Cork's shambolic public transport system at the moment.

JupiterKid · 11-07-2009 8:04pm

I think Cork is really the only other city in Ireland that could sustain a LUAS type light rail system. The best line IMO would be one that runs from west to east, serving the CIT, the County Hall, UCC, the City Centre, the new Docklands area (with a link to Kent Station) and Mahon Point/Douglas.

Critical to its success would be the degree with which it interfaced with existing public transport - such as bus and rail - services. I think only 1 line with a possible spur would realistically be viable for city as small as Cork.

Typewriter · 11-07-2009 9:39pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

The line would then use the old Blackrock Railway line...

:eek:

I don't think so.

The old line is now a very popular well established greenway. Maybe Luas could divert into Blackrock station from the unused land on the Maria then straight out again heading up behind Aldi and towards Mahon Point. This might only be tolerated if provisions were made to keep a pedestrian right of way.

antoinolachtnai · 11-07-2009 11:33pm

How wide is the old railway/new greenway?

Luas for Cork: get the crayons out!

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