Documentary on symphysiotomy on RTE

Wibbs

Just finished watching. It was about symphysiotomy's carried out on Irish women. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphysiotomy Ive rarely been more angered watching a TV show. Or angered at the frankly blinkered bullshít that pervaded this country and sadly pervades it still in places.

bronte

Another reason why I ain't having no kids.

From Wiki:

"Ireland and Symphysiotomy

Irish women who unknowingly and without consent underwent symphysiotomies during childbirth between the 1950s and 1980s say they were left with severe side effects, including extreme pain, incontinence and depression. Irish obstetricians sought to establish this operation as an alternative to Caesarean sections because it was thought that women subjected to repeated Caesareans 'might be tempted to use contraception'."

Wibbs

Unreal.

princess-lala

Even reading about it is tragic and painful.

How could anyone put any woman through that pain so she wouldnt be "tempted" to use contraception

Stella777

I don't understand how this procedure would prevent women from "giving into the temptation" of birth control. It sounds much worse than a C-section to me.

hatrickpatrick

I was wondering if anyone on boards had seen it, this absolutely sickened me...
It's weird how as someone who grew up in the 90s (born '89) in the middle of the first celtic tiger, I always thought of Ireland as a much more free and liberal place than I am now discovering it is...
Society's ****ed up attitude to sexuality in general (as encouraged by people who were supposed to be preaching love and compassion as per the gospels) has left appalling scars on our nation which will take a long, long time to heal.

But it's AMAZING the parallels you can draw between then and now. If you take every story about church state collusion in abuse of power, illegal activities, and corruption from the 70s and 80s and replaced the word 'church' with 'banks' you would be able to tell the story of the noughties with very few edits. How did it come to this? When did we as a nation allow our government to put the general population on the backburner in favour of their special friends with vested interests?

And how many more times are we going to have to see utterly horrifying news reports before someone finally makes a real stand and completely uproots this rotten system they've created?

This documentary is going to haunt me for a long, long time. It's probably second only to the nursing home scandals of '06 and '07 in terms of repulsion.

metrovelvet

More evidence if the long history if hating women in this country and the Irish taliban at large.

Joey the lips

Hi ladies. been looking for discussions on this in humanities but it seems its not worthy.

I have to say its the worst procedure I have ever seen and personally speaking I would never have kids if my wife had to go through it.


What kills me more and really kills me is the arrogence of the medical profession at all levels including the nurses.(bear with me)

Management clearly this not question this. Masters of the hospital were trained in it. This is my problem hospital management like the sisters of charity treat doctors like gods, granted some are but this is why we have the arrogence of michael neary on the program last night.

Nurses. Any nurse seeing another women going through this then telling her she is lucky to be alive and how the doctor saved her is pur daft. A person should not have to give praise because they were saved they should offer it as a token of gratitude.


My honest feeling after watching the program(and I am a man) is men should not be running the medical profession. Especially in maternity. They have not a clue and there arrogence speaks of this.

I am thankful of many things. My wife recently gave birth on OLOL however the amount of wavers and documents she signed was unbeliveable, I honestly think this is an attempt by the medical profession to protect itself rather than correct itself.

We are really a third world country when it comes to all this and with due respect I am glad I am not a women and yet fearfull for my wife and future daughters.

dearg lady

Stella777 wrote: »

I don't understand how this procedure would prevent women from "giving into the temptation" of birth control. It sounds much worse than a C-section to me.

My guess on what this meant is, a woman is usually limited to a certain number of c sections, around 3 or 4, and ya know, as Catholics we should have however many children God chooses to bless us with So basically if a woman had had all her C sections she may be tempted to use contraception to stop herself from getting pregnant again. Whereas, with the symphysiotomy the thinking at the time was, she would be able to deliver normally for all future pregnancies, thus allowing her many children.

I may have picked that up wrong though!

I had never even heard of this procedure before last night, and I was really shocked and saddened watching the programme, to think what people went though, it sounds horrendous and barbaric, and then just to make it worse, the whole cover up and 'don't dare question your doctor' attitude that was prevalant at the time, and sometimes still!

Nevyn

It is on the real player on the rte.ie site this morning.
http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1066881

I knew about this, I knew about this long before Dr Neary's scandal broke.

Growing up there was one of the local mammy's who was on crutches all the time and this operation was the reason why. She had been an unmarried mother giving birth at the start of the 70s and this procedure was done to her. She lived her life in agony due to it being 'done for her own good'.

The abuse of women when they are their most vulnerable was rife, esp those who were 'fallen women' with out a husband to 'protect' them.
http://emmarogan.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/symphysiotomy-the-story-of-a-cruel-childbirth-practice-in-ireland/

Symphysiotomy is a discredited childbirth operation severing the pelvis that persisted in Ireland until as recently as the 1980s. Hundreds of Irish women, who were unknowingly subjected to the surgery, say they were left with severe and life-long side-effects, including walking disabilities, chronic pain, incontinence and depression.

Their doctors chose to perform symphysiotomy instead of Caesarean section, a safer alternative. They saw Caesareans as leading women into temptation, the ‘temptation’ to practice birth control.

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?level=4&id=5009

Symphysiotomy survivors demand inquiry

[Posted: Tue 24/06/2003]

By Deborah Condon

Irish women who unknowingly underwent symphysiotomies, an operation performed during childbirth between the 1950s and 1980s, are demanding a public inquiry into the practise, which they say, has left them with severe side effects, including extreme pain, incontinence and depression.

A symphysiotomy is a surgical procedure which is carried out to permanently widen the pelvis of a woman who might normally require repeat Caesarean sections. The cartilage of the symphysis pubis, which is the point where the pubic bones come together, is surgically divided during the procedure.

According to support group, Survivors of Symphysiotomy (SOS), Irish obstetricians sought to establish this operation as an alternative to Caesarean sections because it was thought that women subjected to repeated Caesareans 'might be tempted to use contraception'.

SOS is now demanding answers as to why women were subjected to this procedure without their consent and in many cases, without their knowledge.

Rose, now aged 57, was 17 and pregnant with her first child when she went into labour on Christmas Eve. On Christmas Day, a doctor told her that her baby would soon be delivered. She was given what she later learned was a local anaesthetic and was then unknowingly subjected to a symphysiotomy.

"The pain was excruciating. My arms were pinned down by nurses and my legs were held up, like the way you would hold a turkey", she explained.

After the procedure, when Rose had woken up, she was obviously eager to see her baby, who was in a nursery next door to her ward. However when she tried to stand up, she fainted with the pain and was told not to attempt to get up again. Rose ended up crawling on her hands and knees that night in a desperate attempt to see her baby, before a doctor found her and told a nurse to get a wheelchair for her.

A couple of days later, two nurses came to 'teach me how to walk again'. She was let out of hospital 10 days after the birth, while her baby remained there for a month. Rose, whose partner died nine years ago, did go on to have more children. However her life has been marked by chronic pain and anger at what has happened to her.

"I have spent 40 years locked up for having a baby. I kept having to give up jobs because of the pain. I have never been on a holiday and I never go out. I have to wear sanitary towels all the time because of bladder problems. I have been to a psychiatrist and I am eventually going to be left on my own in a wheelchair", she said.

Another survivor, Claire who was 29 and pregnant with her fifth child, was initially told she needed a Caesarean section, but was later told this was not necessary. Referring to what happened in the delivery room, she said she felt as though a 'red, hot poker' had been passed through her, the pain was so excruciating. She passed out and when she awoke, she was told that there had been complications, her pelvis had been broken and she would be in bed for five days. She was also told she would have to learn how to walk again.

"I was never followed up. I was never told that I would not be able to hold or nurse my baby. That child was raised in a pram because I couldn't hold him, the pain was so bad. I couldn't even play with him. It is 31 years later and I want answers", she said.

SOS has requested a meeting with Health Minister, Micheal Martin, to discuss the situation. However to date, Mr Martin has failed to agree to meet with the organisation. SOS believes a public inquiry is necessary in order to determine:

-Why symphysiotomies were carried out when alternatives were available.

-Why the procedure was carried out here so often, compared to other European countries.

-Why no-one has been held accountable for the suffering of the women involved.

-Why this procedure was carried out without these women's consent.

Apart from the inquiry, SOS would also like to see the establishment of a counselling service and helpline. It also believes that those affected should be provided with home help and home modifications where necessary.

"There are a lot of women in wheelchairs and housebound because of this. Who is going to look after them?", the organisation added.

Knowing about this and some of the other abuses of women's reproductive rights in this country is why I am such a contraceptive and women's health information advocate.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1001/symphyisotomy.html

Martin promises Symphysiotomy review
Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:32

The Minister for Health, Micheál Martin, has promised that his department will carry out an independent review of the procedure of Symphysiotomy in Irish hospitals in the 1940s and 1950s.

He has also promised counselling and free health services for the victims.

This follows a meeting with representatives of over 200 women who are suffering serious health problems from the procedure.

Bonito

Feck forgot to watch that last night? What was the jist of the things? Twats using an ancient procedure and destroying women just because they could not be arse with a caesarian?

Sounds very like that nightmare that went on for dozens of women in the lourdes hospital in drogheda at the hands of Neary!

Nevyn

Bonito wrote: »

Feck forgot to watch that last night? What was the jist of the things? Twats using an ancient procedure and destroying women just because they could not be arse with a caesarian?

Because there was a limit on the number of C sections a woman could have and they may be 'tempted' to use contraception where as sawing into the public bone could mean she could have may more births with out a C section.

But this was proven to be untrue and often women who had symphsiotomy preformed needed a C section on later pregnancies.

Bonito wrote: »

Sounds very like that nightmare that went on for dozens of women in the lourdes hospital in drogheda at the hands of Neary!

It is part of that scandal as well, Neary preformed these operations, he denied it in the inquiry but there is proof that he did and there are links between the Lourdes as a teaching hospital and these horrendous proceedures being carried out by drs trained there in other hospitals.

Bonito

Thaedydal wrote: »

Because there was a limit on the number of C sections a woman could have and they may be 'tempted' to use contraception where as sawing into the public bone could mean she could have may more births with out a C section.

But this was proven to be untrue and often women who had symphsiotomy preformed needed a C section on later pregnancies.

Is it after the third one things start to get complicated?

It is part of that scandal as well, Neary preformed these operations, he denied it in the inquiry but there is proof that he did and there are links between the Lourdes as a teaching hospital and these horrendous proceedures being carried out by drs trained there in other hospitals.

Scum, IMO. I even find it sickening and unnerving trying to imagine a woman having to go through such a procedure. It sounds, barbaric to me really.

Nevyn

It used to be once you had a c section all births had to be c section but that is no longer the case as the advances in doing them happened but they were not taught in this country at that time.

Bonito

The advances in C sections were not taught or c sections were not taught altogether?

Nevyn

Bonito wrote: »

The advances in C sections were not taught or c sections were not taught altogether?

OBG practices were behind the rest of the Western World, C sections were done but still the out dated symphysiotomy were preferred over them.

Bonito

Ahhhh I see now. So basically it was just laziness on the drs part not updating their methods as C section ops advanced?

Nevyn

No idea who was behind the policy, if you watch the primetime slot on it there is a lot of passing the buck and there has not been the offical review which was promised 7 years ago.

Bonito

So all we know is it was done but nobody has the balls to own up. Typical.

LFCFan

There is a group on facebook for this now. My mother in law went through this procedure in Limerick (She was interviewed by Primetime for the show last night but they didn't use it as they seemed to be concentrating on Drogheda as usual). She has been in a wheelchair for over 20 years after giving birth to her 3rd child. The previous 2 were born in England with no issues and of course it took this country to rob the poor woman of her ability to walk. We need to get in the face of Mary Harney and demand action. Millions has been spent on useless tribunals yet our government aren't willing to do what's right for so many women who were so badly treated by the State. An enquiry is badly needed. This is not about money, it's about justice and getting the healthcare and help they need.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=312281074818

Wibbs

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I was wondering if anyone on boards had seen it, this absolutely sickened me...
It's weird how as someone who grew up in the 90s (born '89) in the middle of the first celtic tiger, I always thought of Ireland as a much more free and liberal place than I am now discovering it is...

I grew up in the 70's and remember the BS well. And this was in Dublin, which was by comparison relatively cosmopolitan(we had more TV choices for a start. Big diff). You could barely turn on the telly without some priest or other waxing lyrical on all sorts of subjects. IMHO it lasted until the mid 80's too. Divorce freely available contraception etc is a mid 80's thing. In 1979, the pope came here and a million people showed up to the Phoenix park in Dublin, never mind the rest of the country. In 85 I suspect if there had been a sequel that number would have halved. By 1990, I'd reckon a quarter. You kinda just missed it.

But it's AMAZING the parallels you can draw between then and now. If you take every story about church state collusion in abuse of power, illegal activities, and corruption from the 70s and 80s and replaced the word 'church' with 'banks' you would be able to tell the story of the noughties with very few edits. How did it come to this? When did we as a nation allow our government to put the general population on the backburner in favour of their special friends with vested interests?

I would agree. I think it was and is a part of the "Irish psyche". That parish pump politics and land of the twitching windows that gives rise to that. We may think of ourselves as rebels and we are, but mostly outside of Ireland. The effect we've had on the world stage is huge by comparison to our size. But here? Not nearly so much.

Any organised group however small can have a large effect on this country and little real action will be taken against it. We point the finger at the church and rightfully so, but we must also point the finger at ourselves too. Look at other majorly catholic nations and you dont see this to nearly the same degree. Look at Spain in the same period. Franco ruled the place in major cahoots with the church, but the scandals in the aftermath were less than here. Child abuse for a start. I think because countries like that did have more of an opposing view, however put down upon they were. There was an element of admiration for that view.

Here we have too much the element of "ah shure isnt it for our own good boss/Shure isnt X a great fella/don't make a fuss/you're not being fair to people in power" etc. Charles Mc Quaid and DeValera tried to build a purely Catholic state in this country and succeeded too for the guts of 50 years. They had help from the citizens of this country in the building of it too. Even if their only help was their meek and deathly silence.

And if anyone thinks that's all behind us, just look at the recent rape case where large bunch of people supported the accused in court headed by the local priest. Look at the support for the various bishops who wouldnt stand down over the child abuse scandals. The 10,000+ who showed up to pray to a tree stump. The writers of Father Ted may have baulked at adding that. And as you mention the financial and political scandals. Look at when CJ Haughey was in front of the tribunals. He had fans showing up daily to cheer him into his limo that they paid for. That stuff is still under the surface, especially, but not only, in small towns.

Thaedydal wrote: »

No idea who was behind the policy, if you watch the primetime slot on it there is a lot of passing the buck and there has not been the offical review which was promised 7 years ago.

I would say it was one of those organic nudge nudge policies with no real head. One could point quite easily at the catholic heirarchy, McQuaid et al that built a society where a thing like this was the natural outcome. After all without the contraceptive issue this would simply not have arisen in a first world country.

loopylo

Im expecting my 1st child in August and the horror and pain that those women went through is making me re-consider giving birth in a Hospital. I know it has been a few years and it has since stopped (we hope) but whats to say it cant happen again?

What goes through Doctors heads when they do that? its disgusting :mad::(

Novella

Bonito wrote: »

Feck forgot to watch that last night? What was the jist of the things? Twats using an ancient procedure and destroying women just because they could not be arse with a caesarian?

Sounds very like that nightmare that went on for dozens of women in the lourdes hospital in drogheda at the hands of Neary!

You can watch it on RTE player now, if you want. www.rte.ie/player

Joey the lips

loopylo wrote: »

Im expecting my 1st child in August and the horror and pain that those women went through is making me re-consider giving birth in a Hospital. I know it has been a few years and it has since stopped (we hope) but whats to say it cant happen again?

What goes through Doctors heads when they do that? its disgusting :mad::(

Arrogence in the belief that your god rather than just a doctor, a belief that everyone else is wrong and you are right and a lack of belief in the rule do no harm!

metrovelvet

I dont understand the logic of how this procedure cures you of using birth control? By making it impossible for you to have sex by crippling you?

hatrickpatrick

Call me paranoid or a conspiracy theorist if you like but when I hear that a huge majority of the victims were unmarried mothers I seriously question whether it could have actually been done as some sort of punishment or deterrent rather than out of necessity. I would hope the medical profession would have more dignity than that, but when you look at the Ryan report and you hear of dentists who willingly extracted full sets of teeth when the nuns wanted to punish a little girl (Marianne Finucane's show about 8 months ago, it was mentioned here on Boards I think), faith in pretty much every sector of society upholding any kind of REAL moral standards instead of the warped ones inflicted on it plummets. Dramatically.

And I say all this as a practicing Catholic.

metrovelvet

metrovelvet wrote: »

I dont understand the logic of how this procedure cures you of using birth control? By making it impossible for you to have sex by crippling you?

I think the logic is that you might feel that you were entitled to use contraception if your life was in danger.
As it might be from multiple cesarean sections.

Ihaveanopinion

I just want to point out that this took place 28 years ago. This has not been the standard of care in Ireland since at least that time.

Symphysiotomies had a place before it was safe to carry out Caesarian sections and are still performed in the 3rd World - and probably some places in the 2nd world - where it is too dangerous to perform a C-section because of the risk of infection and the need to deliver the baby alive!

But again, a little context - 28 years ago!

Xiney

Right - only 28 years ago, 20 years after the procedure was discontinued in the rest of Ireland and probably longer since it was discontinued in other developed countries.

dearg lady

Ihaveanopinion wrote: »

I just want to point out that this took place 28 years ago. This has not been the standard of care in Ireland since at least that time.

Symphysiotomies had a place before it was safe to carry out Caesarian sections and are still performed in the 3rd World - and probably some places in the 2nd world - where it is too dangerous to perform a C-section because of the risk of infection and the need to deliver the baby alive!

But again, a little context - 28 years ago!

Yes, the problem being that they were continued to be carried out when Caesarians would have been more suitable and were in fact available. Also, that proper aftercare wasn't practiced.

Ihaveanopinion

Xiney wrote: »

Right - only 28 years ago, 20 years after the procedure was discontinued in the rest of Ireland and probably longer since it was discontinued in other developed countries.

Not quite true.

princess-lala

Ihaveanopinion wrote: »

Not quite true.

Wanna explain a bit?

mardybumbum

Is this programme still up on the rte real player site.
The most recent upload seems to be about willie o dea?

Novella

mardybumbum wrote: »

Is this programme still up on the rte real player site.
The most recent upload seems to be about willie o dea?

Skip to about 20 minutes in.

metrovelvet

Hold on. Ireland wasnt really a developed nation until about 30 years ago. It was white mexico so this isnt that shocking.

almostnever

metrovelvet wrote: »

Hold on. Ireland wasnt really a developed nation until about 30 years ago. It was white mexico so this isnt that shocking.

TBH,for me anyway, the issue is that C sections were a safer alternative (for the baby too,apparently there was a 10% infant death rate with symphysiotomies) and that they seemed to have been used more on unmarried mothers and as a means of discouraging contraception. So,to me,it's sick in a whole variety of ways.

metrovelvet

almostnever wrote: »

TBH,for me anyway, the issue is that C sections were a safer alternative (for the baby too,apparently there was a 10% infant death rate with symphysiotomies) and that they seemed to have been used more on unmarried mothers and as a means of discouraging contraception. So,to me,it's sick in a whole variety of ways.

ok. So they had the means to do c sections but chose not to.

And yes, that it was on unmarrried mothers does seem sick.

panda100

Joey the lips wrote: »

Hi ladies. been looking for discussions on this in humanities but it seems its not worthy.

I have to say its the worst procedure I have ever seen and personally speaking I would never have kids if my wife had to go through it.


What kills me more and really kills me is the arrogence of the medical profession at all levels including the nurses.(bear with me)

Management clearly this not question this. Masters of the hospital were trained in it. This is my problem hospital management like the sisters of charity treat doctors like gods, granted some are but this is why we have the arrogence of michael neary on the program last night.

Couldn't agree more with this post.To me, this is the crux of the matter and is a problem which is getting worse and worse in this country. There will always be scandals like this when there is a proffesion that is answerable to no one. Its also no suprise that these scandals all happen regards womens health in what remains an extremely patriachal mens club. I would be very interested to see how many operations of this kind were carried out by female physicians.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Hold on. Ireland wasnt really a developed nation until about 30 years ago. It was white mexico so this isnt that shocking.

Thats not really true. Im 27 and certainly grew up in a developed country. My cousins,sisters and brothers are all well into their 30's and 40's and all grew up in a well developed country.
There has been more women than men entering medical school since the 60's in Ireland,my two female cousins became obstetricians in the 80's.
Its more the archaic power and religious structures that have steadfastly remained that makes other believe we had nothing in this country until 10 years ago when we started showing the world our gaudy displays of wealth.

Wealth doesnt eqaute to a developed country though, hence why we remain one of the most unequal countries in the world as religious and other powerful influences still strongly grasp our country.

I know that in ten years there will be primetime documentarys on rape victims in Irish public hospitals whom to this day are turned away from getting the MAP as the nuns and the priests on the hospital boards forbid doctors to prescribe contraceptions.

metrovelvet

30 years ago was the 1970s. You call that developed? Two years waiting to get s phone in your house? The laundries still open. Central heating not standard yet? High levels if corruption and government collusion. No way. Ireland was way behind.

You should see the roads where I am now. You wouldnt call it developed.

Wibbs

While I agree with panda100 in the majority of her post, I would agree with metrovelvet as far as the "developed" tag. I remember the 70's. We were very much behind places like the UK. I knew schoolfriends in dublin without phones. Outside the major towns? Incredibly backward. Electrification was still going on. I recall being in a house in the west in the late 70's that had just got "the 'lectric" and they had two bulbs in the house and treated them with reverence. Many homes had no phones either and went to the pub or local B&B to make calls, usually through an operator and exchange too. As MV noted central heating was rare enough. My family didnt get it until 1980.

Media and culture was another issue. Again outside the major eastern towns you had RTE1 or RTE as it was. A much wider gulf between urban and rural. One TV channel, if you had a TV. Pretty much one radio station too. A station that had been quite curtailed by the state and church. The Late Late lacking in many ways now, when fronted by Gay Byrne was a cultural hub and did make impressive moves forward when he and his team handled sensitive subjects. There were protests of the religious right on a fairly regular basis outside Montrose and calls from the pulpit of "for shame". That went on up to the early 80's too. Then you had film censorship and even books. The newspapers were even more on a leash. The evening press was set up and owned by DeValera and his family and cronies as their mouthpiece.

Hell a "good catholic" even sought permission from the bishop to attend Trinity college in Dublin. I recall and this is circa 82/83 mind, where my school had a third level open day where various colleges would show up and describe what they had on offer. Trinity was noticeable by its absence. This was a middle class rugger bugger school too. The education system was almost entirely run by the church(and still is to far high a degree).

Corruption and cronyism in the corridors of power was much higher than now

Ireland in the 70's was still mostly a rural, religious and conservative country, where priests politicians and doctors were at the top. "The 50's" in ireland lasted longer than elsewhere. So on so many levels we were an undeveloped culture and country. Right up to the mid 80's.

jonsnow

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0220/1224264856281.html

In todays Irish Times tv review.Couple of interesting points raised.This practice seems to have been used primarily as a punishment.Some records show that it was carried out after the baby had been delivered.I also think that class plays a huge part in this.Most of these women were working class.I think class has played a huge part in scandals involving the catholic church in Ireland over the years.I don,t recall too many sex scandals coming out of clongowes or st. michaels.If you,re going to rape and bugger children are shatter womens pelvis,s for being an unmarried mother.Better make sure that they are an unconnected nobody first.



Symphysiotomy A true horror story


Prime Time Special: Brutal Practice RTÉ1, Thursday

Paul Maguire’s report on the history of symphysiotomy in Ireland was profoundly upsetting – a history of savagery which then turned into news. Symphysiotomy, the cutting of a woman’s pelvis into two to facilitate the delivery of her baby, was discontinued in the developed world in the early part of the 20th century. Symphysiotomy was reintroduced here in 1944. Unbelievably, it continued in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda until 1982.

Paul Maguire told this horror story with great seriousness and care, whether talking to the victims of symphysiotomy about their continuing pain, incontinence and difficulty walking, or revealing the blistering criticism that international obstetricians levelled at Irish obstetricians during the 1950s.

The programme implied that symphysiotomy was a symptom of the misogynistic Catholic medicine that pertained in Ireland at that time, although this link was not really explained. Enough, perhaps, that Mary Borg underwent it when she was delivering her baby at the age of 14.

Most of the women who had symphysiotomy seemed to have been young and pretty at the time. They also seem to have been, on the evidence here – although this was never explicitly said – working class.

There was no rational reason for modern symphysiotomy. It was not about the safe delivery of a baby – it had a high infant mortality rate – but about punishing the young and fertile. Records at Our Lady of Lourdes revealed something called an “on the way out” symphysiotomy, which was performed after a Caesarean section. In other words, it was performed when the baby was already out of the woman’s body. This was chilling viewing.

And a remark by Dr Michael Neary about the injured women – “Is it the smell of the money that’s getting to them?” – was so offensive as to be almost unbroadcastable. However, it is right that it was broadcast, because it was highly informative.

Solair

I just watched that documentary somewhat accidentally as I was just catching-up on the Willie O'Dea story properly, which was broadcast before the planned documentary on symphysiotomy.

I'm a bloke and I was absolutely horrified by what I saw. What kind of insanely flawed, dogma-driven, logic could possibly cause any surgeon or hospital to continue to use this surgical anachronism ?

This went on until the 1980s in Our Lady of Lourdes' hospital in Drogheda ?!

All, I can say is that it underlines the need to get a proper division between church (of any flavour) and state / state services (health/education). We need proper human rights legislation enshrined in the constitution too.

It's completely unacceptable that this kind of nonsense went on less than 30 years ago.

I really think it's time that we grew-up as a nation and stopped handing control of vital community services i.e. health and education (and aspects of welfare) over to unaccountable organisations like Catholic Church organisations etc etc. Most of these organisations have an overarching moral agenda, which may not be compatible with the interests of the great good of the people, with human rights legislation or with modern thinking.

I don't mean to be anti-religious in that comment. Religious organisations and communities can do whatever they like in terms of teaching, preaching, etc but there are a whole range of vital community services in Ireland which can only be accessed via these organisation and are ultimately paid for by the state.

I feel that that situation is wholly unacceptable in a democratic society, particularly in one that styles itself as a republic.

ORLY?

panda100 wrote: »

I know that in ten years there will be primetime documentarys on rape victims in Irish public hospitals whom to this day are turned away from getting the MAP as the nuns and the priests on the hospital boards forbid doctors to prescribe contraceptions.

Are you sure this goes on? Where? I find it really hard to believe, forbidding all contraception? Whatever about the MAP, standard contraceptive methods would be a good idea for a lot of women on serious teratogens. Ethically I don't see how prescribing them could be banned?

Robxxx7

Joey the lips wrote: »

Arrogence in the belief that your god rather than just a doctor, a belief that everyone else is wrong and you are right and a lack of belief in the rule do no harm!

amen to that

F.A.

Ihaveanopinion wrote: »

I just want to point out that this took place 28 years ago. This has not been the standard of care in Ireland since at least that time.

Symphysiotomies had a place before it was safe to carry out Caesarian sections and are still performed in the 3rd World - and probably some places in the 2nd world - where it is too dangerous to perform a C-section because of the risk of infection and the need to deliver the baby alive!

But again, a little context - 28 years ago!

You have now expressed your warped opinion in several threads on the topic. Basically, you consider an inquiry a waste of money and time with nothing to be gained because it happened 28 years ago and those responsible are no longer alive or practicing.

Maybe you can explain to us what is to be gained by inquiries about the Holocaust so? I mean, it happened sooo long ago, the perpetrators are long dead, and, sure, it won't happen again, so why do the survivors not just shut up, why do they even get compensation, eh?

Here is an idea: because victims have RIGHTS. They have a right to be acknowledged, respected, and compensated (and that includes a lot more than just medical expenses), and they most certainly have the right to demand their suffering be fully investigated. Furthermore, people ought to have a good understanding of their own history without black spots being conveniently swept under the carpet. Your attitude reeks of the classic Irish "Ah, sure, let'em off", which, honestly, is a sickening approach to be taken by a society that claims to be civilized. Sickening then becomes dangerous when you consider the equally popular victimhood view of the Irish when it comes to the Brits, as it allows people to assume that "guilt" always lies outside their own sphere. Irish society like any society has a responsibility towards its citizens, and proper historic research and public inquiries are a huge step towards accepting said responsibility. Because, you know, they say we need to know our history lest it repeat itself. A cliche, maybe, but what was done to these poor women can certainly teach us a lesson or two about (Irish) society's morals as reflected in its views on the medical profession and, most of all, women.

But hey, history lessons are optional in Irish schools, aren't they. Honi soit qui mal y pense. :rolleyes:

Ihaveanopinion

F.A. wrote: »

You have now expressed your warped opinion in several threads on the topic. Basically, you consider an inquiry a waste of money and time with nothing to be gained because it happened 28 years ago and those responsible are no longer alive or practicing.

Maybe you can explain to us what is to be gained by inquiries about the Holocaust so? I mean, it happened sooo long ago, the perpetrators are long dead, and, sure, it won't happen again, so why do the survivors not just shut up, why do they even get compensation, eh?

Here is an idea: because victims have RIGHTS. They have a right to be acknowledged, respected, and compensated (and that includes a lot more than just medical expenses), and they most certainly have the right to demand their suffering be fully investigated. Furthermore, people ought to have a good understanding of their own history without black spots being conveniently swept under the carpet. Your attitude reeks of the classic Irish "Ah, sure, let'em off", which, honestly, is a sickening approach to be taken by a society that claims to be civilized. Sickening then becomes dangerous when you consider the equally popular victimhood view of the Irish when it comes to the Brits, as it allows people to assume that "guilt" always lies outside their own sphere. Irish society like any society has a responsibility towards its citizens, and proper historic research and public inquiries are a huge step towards accepting said responsibility. Because, you know, they say we need to know our history lest it repeat itself. A cliche, maybe, but what was done to these poor women can certainly teach us a lesson or two about (Irish) society's morals as reflected in its views on the medical profession and, most of all, women.

But hey, history lessons are optional in Irish schools, aren't they. Honi soit qui mal y pense. :rolleyes:

Its not a warped opinion - its an opinion. I am trying to bring a bit of perspective to this hysterical rant that so many people are on. I mean, come on, Holocaust... get real!

I am not denying that its a bad thing and I've said so multiple times.

We have seen multiple inquiries and tribunals etc etc over the years which have achieved very little and cost a fortune - with a few exceptions. If you want to apportion blame, please feel free. It is widely known where, when and how. You could probably find that doctors grave and jump up and down on it if you want to.

Yes victims have rights. If they want to take a case, please take a civil case. Don't have a public inquiry costing a fortune in tax payers money, which could be better spent on cancer screening programmes, upgrading school, etc

F.A.

Yeah, the classic Fianna Fail argument: Don't hold any tribunals, they cost too much money, and we might be embarrassed by the findings.

Yeah, far too much money which can be better spent bailing out the banks, developers, builders, and other sundry cronies.

The truth is far too expensive. You know, there'd be no need for tribunals if people knew they'd be held accountable for their actions.

Welcome to Ireland, ladies.

panda100

ORLY? wrote: »

Are you sure this goes on? Where? I find it really hard to believe, forbidding all contraception? Whatever about the MAP, standard contraceptive methods would be a good idea for a lot of women on serious teratogens. Ethically I don't see how prescribing them could be banned?

I can't speak for any other hospital except The Mater Hospital but Doctors are not allowed to prescribe The Pill or MAP from the Mater prescription pad.
I remember while I was doing my Infectious diseases rotation,it seemed so frustating to preach good sexual health and then not being able to give a pill prescription at the end of it.

The majority of public hospitals in Ireland have priests or nuns sitting on their boards.The Mater hospital 'ethic's' commitee objects to the use of contraception because it is a Catholic run hospital. Archaic and ridiculous in this day and age, but unfortunately true.

sam34

panda100 wrote: »

I can't speak for any other hospital except The Mater Hospital but Doctors are not allowed to prescribe The Pill or MAP from the Mater prescription pad.
I remember while I was doing my Infectious diseases rotation,it seemed so frustating to preach good sexual health and then not being able to give a pill prescription at the end of it

The majority of public hospitals in Ireland have priests or nuns sitting on their boards.The Mater hospital 'ethic's' commitee objects to the use of contraception because it is a Catholic run hospital. Archaic and ridiculous in this day and age, but unfortunately true.

i'm not sure that the majority of public hospitals still have nuns/priests on the board, or in any position of influence

hospitals that are run by the religious certainly do - eg the mercy in cork, (and they treat public patients) but cuh doesnt

i've worked in 7 different public hospitals, and never encountered a problem prescribing contraception, or emergency contraception. now, granted, its not something i would get asked for a lot in my field, but i was never made aware of any hospital policy regarding it, and i never heard of it form any of my friends/colleagues in other specialties

panda100

sam34 wrote: »

i'm not sure that the majority of public hospitals still have nuns/priests on the board, or in any position of influence

hospitals that are run by the religious certainly do - eg the mercy in cork, (and they treat public patients) but cuh doesnt

i've worked in 7 different public hospitals, and never encountered a problem prescribing contraception, or emergency contraception. now, granted, its not something i would get asked for a lot in my field, but i was never made aware of any hospital policy regarding it, and i never heard of it form any of my friends/colleagues in other specialties

My best friend is an SHO in Infectious diseases in the Mater so she would tend to see a lot of cases where prescribing the pill and MAP would be ideal.

It last cropped up in the media's attention in 2005 when women undergoing Clinal trials for Cancer drugs were not allowed contraception as it was against the hospital's ethos :http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2005/1004/1127148477551.html

sam34

thats one hospital though, and its one run by religious orders

i dont think that it pertains to all, or even most, public hospitals.