Meeting with Engineers Ireland

jomo99

Red Alert wrote: »

1) I'm definitely in favor of removing/not awarding the MIEI from people with Diplomas. Were they not previously allowed be Associate Members or something? No other professional body would allow the hard work of its professional members to be devalued in this way. Why did they make this change in the first place?

2) Why did the MIEI not defend the public image of its members when Mary Coughlan claimed we were a high-cost profession. Engineers, compared to many other similarly qualified professions, give good value for money. The IEI should promote this viewpoint in the media.

I'd like to know why you think people like myself with "only" a H dip are not as skilled, valued, etc, and not entitled to be MIEI. I have been in this profession for 20 + years, and I have met many Degree educated, and higher, that can't use there head or there hands,

John

quietsailor

jomo99 wrote: »

I'd like to know why you think people like myself with "only" a H dip are not as skilled, valued, etc, and not entitled to be MIEI. I have been in this profession for 20 + years, and I have met many Degree educated, and higher, that can't use there head or there hands,

John

I have to second the above,

I DO agree that the title of Engineer is being abused - Sanitation Engineer is my personal pet peeve but I can't condone a blanket ban on everyone who doesn't hold a degree. I qualified in 1996 with a Dip. in Marine and Plant Engineering, by law, both Irish and International (UN Safety Of Life At Sea - SOLAS - regulations) no other form of engineers can do my job, it's too specialised.

Does this make me a better engineer than the rest of the Mech, Process etc Engineers - it doesn't. However that training has allowed personally allowed me to work in the Pharma and Renewables industries so it's transferrable knowledge. Yet I (and other Marine Engineers) who qualified in the 90's are being told we shouldn't be allowed to call ourselves Engineers. My training is superior to yours from an O&M viewpoint as I can work in the Marine, Power, Pharma, Renewables, Refining etc etc areas yet you'll be refused if you attempt to work in the Marine Industry as a ship's Engineer. How can you argue that your better than me and that I'm not entitled to call myself an Engineer when you'll never be allowed to work in an Engineering discipline


I'll put forward another line of argument - Engineering isn't a static discipline, new ideas are put forward, new methods created, old ideas and methods evolve. So someone who trained in the 80's and received a Degree wouldn't have the knowledge of a Degree graduate today. Should we strip the title of Engineer from anyone who qualified in the 80's or before but who hasn't undergone CPD? There are a lot of those engineers out there.

Ninja101

The title should be protected. If you want it, do the degree, simple as that. I'm sure there are nurses who know more than doctors but they dont go around demanding to be called doctor.

The subscription fee at the moment €255 for an ordinary member which is ridiculously high, and for what? And if you really think €1000 is acceptable for a course, which could be learned from a book for nothing, there must be something in it for you. Perhaps you're giving the course yourself?

testicle

jomo99 wrote: »

I'd like to know why you think people like myself with "only" a H dip are not as skilled, valued, etc, and not entitled to be MIEI. I have been in this profession for 20 + years, and I have met many Degree educated, and higher, that can't use there head or there hands,

John

Seeing as I brought up the point originally, I'll answer it. Firstly, it wasn't against anyone with a H Dip, H Dips are for teachers as far as I am aware. My point was about those with what was known as a Diploma up until 2004 or 2005 or so. Thia qualification is now an Ordinary Degree under the Bologna Agreement.

A Diploma, or now an Ordinary Degree is awarded after 3 years of undergraduate study. This is not enough to qualify anyone as an Engineer. I believe, under the protected title of Engineer in Germany, you must have 5 years of undergraduate study to qualify as an Engineer, which leaves our MIEI open to question originally, not to mind when the IEI devalued it further.

The IEE in the UK, now the IET, allow those with Ordinary Degrees to become MIET, but only after a period of postgraduate experience. The IEI will allow anyone with an Ordinary Degree to become MIEI, without any experience hence part of the problem rating similarly qualified Irish Engineers against their UK counterparts. Irish Engineers can join the IET btw.

Another discrepency is someone who has a 4 year degree under the old scheme, at Pass level. Even now, someone with a pass Level 8 Degree. Is their qualification the same as a newly qualified Ordinary Degree holder?

The IEI don't give a rats testicle about postgraduate experience until you go for CEng, so the fact that you have 20 years after your "H Dip" is irrelevent when you're talking about MIEI.

Membership of IEI - €255
Membership of IET - £117

I resigned my membership of the IEI earlier this year, after nearly 10 years. I joined the IET at the same time. For half the rate, I get the same membership, and a lot more out of it. The IET is a lot more relevent for me (BEng Computer Engineering) than the IEI (which hasn't moved on from the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland)

Dilbert75

Ninja101 wrote: »

if you really think €1000 is acceptable for a course, which could be learned from a book for nothing, there must be something in it for you. Perhaps you're giving the course yourself?

For what its worth there are lots of organisations out there taking massive training money for something you could read in a book - its not confined to any one.

x in the city

Im doing a hdip,its a level 9. same as masters.? why would a h dip be sneeered at.

Fiskar

Quote "Are you a memer with upto date infomraiton? At the very least you should be getting the Enigneers Journal if not there is something wrong."


No , excuse my ignorance but is the journal monthly or yearly?

godtabh

Fiskar wrote: »

Quote "Are you a memer with upto date infomraiton? At the very least you should be getting the Enigneers Journal if not there is something wrong."


No , excuse my ignorance but is the journal monthly or yearly?

Every second month I think. If your not a member what are you complaining about?

Fiskar

godtabh wrote: »

Every second month I think. If your not a member what are you complaining about?

I am actually a member. I am not sure I will renew my membership due last month.

dan_d

testicle wrote: »

Seeing as I brought up the point originally, I'll answer it. Firstly, it wasn't against anyone with a H Dip, H Dips are for teachers as far as I am aware. My point was about those with what was known as a Diploma up until 2004 or 2005 or so. Thia qualification is now an Ordinary Degree under the Bologna Agreement.

A Diploma, or now an Ordinary Degree is awarded after 3 years of undergraduate study. This is not enough to qualify anyone as an Engineer. I believe, under the protected title of Engineer in Germany, you must have 5 years of undergraduate study to qualify as an Engineer, which leaves our MIEI open to question originally, not to mind when the IEI devalued it further.

The IEE in the UK, now the IET, allow those with Ordinary Degrees to become MIET, but only after a period of postgraduate experience. The IEI will allow anyone with an Ordinary Degree to become MIEI, without any experience hence part of the problem rating similarly qualified Irish Engineers against their UK counterparts. Irish Engineers can join the IET btw.

Another discrepency is someone who has a 4 year degree under the old scheme, at Pass level. Even now, someone with a pass Level 8 Degree. Is their qualification the same as a newly qualified Ordinary Degree holder?

The IEI don't give a rats testicle about postgraduate experience until you go for CEng, so the fact that you have 20 years after your "H Dip" is irrelevent when you're talking about MIEI.

Membership of IEI - €255
Membership of IET - £117

I resigned my membership of the IEI earlier this year, after nearly 10 years. I joined the IET at the same time. For half the rate, I get the same membership, and a lot more out of it. The IET is a lot more relevent for me (BEng Computer Engineering) than the IEI (which hasn't moved on from the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland)

Can I also add that in Canada, you are not allowed to use the title "engineer" even if that was your qualification, until you have passed their "professional" exams, which is the equivalent of our chartership. I have a friend over there, a qualified civil engineer with a MAsters and a over a year's experience in Ireland who cannot call herself an engineer. She has to say she's a "member of a geotech team" or something to that effect. You can only say you're an engineer if you've done this exam, which requries a min of 5 yrs experience (post grad courses count) and includes a law and ethics exam, a presentation and a thesis/report. Following that, you are a "professional engineer". You then receive a stamp with your name and title - to sign off designs etc. - among other things. The requriements vary slightly across Canada, but the basic idea is the same

Honestly, when you think of all the talk about "smart economies" here, which engineers should be a huge part of....we can't hold a candle to regulation like that.

godtabh

dan_d wrote: »

Can I also add that in Canada, you are not allowed to use the title "engineer" even if that was your qualification, until you have passed their "professional" exams, which is the equivalent of our chartership. I have a friend over there, a qualified civil engineer with a MAsters and a over a year's experience in Ireland who cannot call herself an engineer. She has to say she's a "member of a geotech team" or something to that effect. You can only say you're an engineer if you've done this exam, which requries a min of 5 yrs experience (post grad courses count) and includes a law and ethics exam, a presentation and a thesis/report. Following that, you are a "professional engineer". You then receive a stamp with your name and title - to sign off designs etc. - among other things. The requriements vary slightly across Canada, but the basic idea is the same

Honestly, when you think of all the talk about "smart economies" here, which engineers should be a huge part of....we can't hold a candle to regulation like that.

Same applies in America. Difference in America is that each state has its own rules and to practice in another state you need to apply again.

with Engineers Ireland you can buy a seal once chartered. Its expensive though

quietsailor

testicle wrote: »

A Diploma, or now an Ordinary Degree is awarded after 3 years of undergraduate study. QUOTE]

I've also completed 3 seperate professional qualifications in my career. These are set and examined by the Dept of the Marine and Nat. Resources (that Dept's name has changed since I took them) and have been verified internationally. Now hands up those who's CPD (NOT your original Degree) is subject to international scrutiny? And I don't mean by a company in another country but by another's country's Government. To be exact the scrutiny originates with the UN.

So seeing as I probably have a higher standard of scrutiny than most of ye am I a better Engineer?

As you mentioned Bologna there are moves afoot to allow level 7 plus certain CPD training to count as a level 8 degree. So if you apply a blanket ban to all Diploma holding Engineers immediately how will the mess be sorted out when these rules come into effect?

I believe, under the protected title of Engineer in Germany, you must have 5 years of undergraduate study to qualify as an Engineer.
So by the reasoning on here a person with 5 years study (a level 8 degree) and no field experience is more qualified and thus safer to put in charge of a plant and process than a person with a Diploma (level 7) and eg, as someone said above, 20 yrs experience? In no industry I ever worked in will you be able to fly that kite lad. In fact I'd say your own knowledge plus skills and thus continuing employment would soon be brought into question if you try to implement that policy. As in - "there's the door, don't let it hit you on the way out".
Maybe ye all mean something else, if you do your not explaining it very well. So far the rhetoric on here is "if he/she has a diploma strip them of the title, they're lesser beings"

quietsailor

One more thing,

I posted this seperately so it would be clearer and not get lost in the ideas of my post above.

I do agree that the title Engineer is being diluted
I do agree we need to make our Engineering courses better and longer - a lot of the Engineering Degree course I'm doing is being rattled out just to get through it. No thought is given to making sure the students understand the lectures. It's like the Leaving Cert - there's a method of passing and once you understand that understanding the subject itself is not as important. A lot of Irish Degree programmes would benefit by being extended to 5 years.

quietsailor

Originally posted by dan_d
Can I also add that in Canada, you are not allowed to use the title "engineer" even if that was your qualification, until you have passed their "professional" exams, which is the equivalent of our chartership. I have a friend over there, a qualified civil engineer with a MAsters and a over a year's experience in Ireland who cannot call herself an engineer. She has to say she's a "member of a geotech team" or something to that effect. You can only say you're an engineer if you've done this exam, which requries a min of 5 yrs experience (post grad courses count) and includes a law and ethics exam, a presentation and a thesis/report. Following that, you are a "professional engineer". You then receive a stamp with your name and title - to sign off designs etc. - among other things. The requriements vary slightly across Canada, but the basic idea is the same
Originally Posted by Red Alert
I'm definitely in favor of removing/not awarding the MIEI from people with Diplomas. Were they not previously allowed be Associate Members or something? No other professional body would allow the hard work of its professional members to be devalued in this way. Why did they make this change in the first place?

I quoted the entire paragraphs above to give context but the points I want/need for my argument are the ones in bold;

Red Alert, your saying that anyone with a Dip. should have the title of Engineer stripped from them, well if we follow international best paractice (Canada) then we should strip EVERYONE who doesn't have a Chartered after their name of the title Engineer -- Soooo how many of ye want to start stripping Engineer from people's names now?
How many of the people on here advocating title stripping for anyone with a Dip would be brave enough to admit they don't meet international best practice and would be willing to remove "Engineer" from after their name until they have trained further to gain Charteredship.**
Those two questions are specifically aimed at; (but anyone can answer and I'd like to see as many answers as possible)
testicle
dan_d
Red Alert
Ninja 101
They're not attempts to mock ye or cause trolling, I want to know if you insist on minimum standards will you be part of the process and agree to strip Engineer from after your name, as you insist Dip graduates must, if the minimum standards rise above what you have now.
(I don't know what you have/what you have done professionally - you could be someone with several phds plus 20 yrs as a Project Manager or you could be graduated 1 yr form a level 8 degree, the questions applies to all skill sets.)


Godtabh, you started this thread requesting questions for the IEI, will you be bringing this pint up with the IEI - that all the people out there in Industry that only have level 8 degrees should be stripped of the title Engineer?


**Before I get the eternal reply - "well why aren't you doing it", I am. I'm back in college studying for a level 8 degree and I'll be enquiring off the IEI and IMarEST (Marine Engineers Institute) about how to advance to Chartered Engineer

godtabh

I already had the meeting and posted the outcome.

I do believe going down the role of PE like in Canada/America is the way to go but how to do that is the problem

quietsailor

godtabh wrote: »

I already had the meeting and posted the outcome.

I do believe going down the role of PE like in Canada/America is the way to go but how to do that is the problem

Can we get the Irish regs altered so that from eg 2020 anyone wishing to call themselves an engineer must be Chartered. That brings us in line with International best practice and all Diploma and Degree qualified engineers have time to go back to college plus finish their CPD to the standard required. Make it a requirement that all Dip and Degree qualified people must either go back to education plus do the relevant CPD by the same date to get the title or submit an application by eg 2015 showing why their current qualification, CPD and experience should give them an exemption.

We need to do something about this and soon, the title Engineer is a joke in Ireland, someone with no formal education beyond a Junior Cert collecting bins is entitled to calls themselves an engineer in this country.

dan_d

quietsailor in response to your question, I would. If I happen to be put in a position where I have to emigrate, I would choose Canada, in which case, I would have to remove that title.

I'm finding the layout of your post a bit hard to read, but I am not insisting that the Dip qualification be stripped from people. What I suggest we start with is simply making it practice that you cannot call yourself something like a "windows engineer", or a maintenance engineer", when that means you fit windows all day, or clean buildings. That, to me, is the starting point.

I completely agree with you that experience has to count. I also think that we have put ourselves in a position in this country where we have a huge variety of qualifications that are engineering based but not all necessarily to the same level. However we also have people with a lot of experience. In that case, we need to try and establish a system whereby we break the regulation into different levels - possibly a simple "chartered" isn't enough.

That's just a suggestion but I do think it's something that needs to be looked into now as we can't go on as we are.

quietsailor

dan_d wrote: »

quietsailor in response to your question, I would. If I happen to be put in a position where I have to emigrate, I would choose Canada, in which case, I would have to remove that title.

I'm finding the layout of your post a bit hard to read, but I am not insisting that the Dip qualification be stripped from people. What I suggest we start with is simply making it practice that you cannot call yourself something like a "windows engineer", or a maintenance engineer", when that means you fit windows all day, or clean buildings. That, to me, is the starting point.

I completely agree with you that experience has to count. I also think that we have put ourselves in a position in this country where we have a huge variety of qualifications that are engineering based but not all necessarily to the same level. However we also have people with a lot of experience. In that case, we need to try and establish a system whereby we break the regulation into different levels - possibly a simple "chartered" isn't enough.

That's just a suggestion but I do think it's something that needs to be looked into now as we can't go on as we are.

Sorry for the multiple posts, it does amke things hard to read but I had too many things to get out of my system.

If what you've posted above is what the thread originally meant then i do owe ye an apology, this is what I want to see happen --- a more careful use of the title engineer and to have some regualtory body - either at government level or professional level making sure the rules are obeyed.

I wonder at what level Chartered is seen worldwide. It should be the pinnacle of the Engineering profession, something that is hard work to achieve and almost a "crowning glory" and not merely another title after your name. For that reason I think the Canadian model is a good one. In a perfect world we could (quickly) look at the best practices worldwide and then pick the most suitable of them as our model for Ireland. Sadly I don't think that'll ever happen.

godtabh

[QUOTE=quietsailor;64640079

I wonder at what level Chartered is seen worldwide. It should be the pinnacle of the Engineering profession, something that is hard work to achieve and almost a "crowning glory" and not merely another title after your name.

[/QUOTE]

Thats the way I see it.

spideog7

I agree with the professional engineer approach and something to the equivalent of a bar exam in law. From my understanding of it though, the term chartered engineers seems to be reserved for Civil, Structural and perhaps Mechanical Engineers and isn't so sought after in other disciplines, such as my own Electronic. Is this just an EI thing (as they seem to be mostly aimed at those industries anyway) or is just a trend.

BTW I was a member of Engineers Ireland but saw no advantageous reason to shell out E127 to join them again this year.

godtabh

its for any discipline. Its a choice for most but would appear to be encouraged more in civil/structural

dan_d

I agree with that comment about chartership.....it should be difficult to achieve. Again, maybe a layered system of....titles (?) that engineers could work their way up through might be appropriate for this country, with chartership being the top layer.

Most other professions have something like this. Architects, doctors, lawyers...so why can't we do something about it?

The reason I ask is that EI can set the process in action, but a call from it's members for more regulation might speed the process up, and focus things a bit more. Having agreed that we all agree, it's up to us at the end of the day; it's the profession we've chosen.

ManFromAtlantis

i often think EI are more interested in getting numbers joining and to pot with standards.

dan_d

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

i often think EI are more interested in getting numbers joining and to pot with standards.

That may be true, but it's not really a reason to stay quiet and say nothing. Like I said, bottom line is, it's our profession. Even just an email doesn't take much effort and you've nothing to lose by sending it. (assuming you're an engineer manfromantlantis!)

peter_de_tool

Comparing Irish Engineers to European Engineers is laughable.

First of all Engineers on the continent are not quiet as common as they are here.

Having studied here and on the continent, I can honestly say that an Irish Engineering Degree from an Irish University would come a very poor second when compared to a Diplôme d'Ingénieur, or Dipl.-Ing./M.Eng. Typically these courses are anything up 50% longer, and the students are actually required to have an aptitude for what they studying, Classroom Theory is reinforced with lots of project work. Typically a German/Austrian engineering student can expect to graduate in his late twenties if he/she is lucky. It is not unusual for only 20% of the initial intake to graduate, this ensures only the very best get through to the end, its a brutal system but it works.

NeoSlicerZ

peter_de_tool wrote: »

Comparing Irish Engineers to European Engineers is laughable.

First of all Engineers on the continent are not quiet as common as they are here.

Having studied here and on the continent, I can honestly say that an Irish Engineering Degree from an Irish University would come a very poor second when compared to a Diplôme d'Ingénieur, or Dipl.-Ing./M.Eng. Typically these courses are anything up 50% longer, and the students are actually required to have an aptitude for what they studying, Classroom Theory is reinforced with lots of project work. Typically a German/Austrian engineering student can expect to graduate in his late twenties if he/she is lucky. It is not unusual for only 20% of the initial intake to graduate, this ensures only the very best get through to the end, its a brutal system but it works.

I'm not sure how it is in the continent but from what I've seen up here in Sweden an engineering degree is 5 years, the equivalent of a masters by the end and standards are very high (88% for an A). Going from my undergrad in Ireland to a MSc here, shocking transition to say the least.

MarcusFenix

testicle wrote: »

Seeing as I brought up the point originally, I'll answer it. Firstly, it wasn't against anyone with a H Dip, H Dips are for teachers as far as I am aware. My point was about those with what was known as a Diploma up until 2004 or 2005 or so. Thia qualification is now an Ordinary Degree under the Bologna Agreement.

A Diploma, or now an Ordinary Degree is awarded after 3 years of undergraduate study. This is not enough to qualify anyone as an Engineer. I believe, under the protected title of Engineer in Germany, you must have 5 years of undergraduate study to qualify as an Engineer, which leaves our MIEI open to question originally, not to mind when the IEI devalued it further.

The IEE in the UK, now the IET, allow those with Ordinary Degrees to become MIET, but only after a period of postgraduate experience. The IEI will allow anyone with an Ordinary Degree to become MIEI, without any experience hence part of the problem rating similarly qualified Irish Engineers against their UK counterparts. Irish Engineers can join the IET btw.

Another discrepency is someone who has a 4 year degree under the old scheme, at Pass level. Even now, someone with a pass Level 8 Degree. Is their qualification the same as a newly qualified Ordinary Degree holder?

The IEI don't give a rats testicle about postgraduate experience until you go for CEng, so the fact that you have 20 years after your "H Dip" is irrelevent when you're talking about MIEI.

Membership of IEI - €255
Membership of IET - £117

I resigned my membership of the IEI earlier this year, after nearly 10 years. I joined the IET at the same time. For half the rate, I get the same membership, and a lot more out of it. The IET is a lot more relevent for me (BEng Computer Engineering) than the IEI (which hasn't moved on from the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland)

I'll second that, im only in my final year of a Beng in Mechanical in CIT but that IEI book they send out has nothing but roads and buildings! Very disappointing I have the free student membership btw.

rowa

i thought the ordinary degree only entitled you to the title of engineering technician , this would be fine surely ? and you could only be an associate member of EI, has this changed ? EI is as far as i can see only for civil, structural and related engineers , not mechanical or electronic.