Meeting with Engineers Ireland

godtabh

I a have a meeting with John Power Director General of Engineers Ireland.

The meeting is going to a general meeting on how I see Engineers Ireland role in society, its relationship with engineering firms & government, and how I see Engineers Ireland going forward. I will be looking at it at from a strategic level.

If you were at such a meeting (and I maybe able to give a voice to some of your ideas/comments) what would you like to discuss with Engineers Ireland? What direction would you like to see them go? What concerns do you have with their current direction?

testicle

Ask him why they started accepting Ordinary Degrees (formerly Diplomas) as acceptable qualifications for MIEI. Ask him does he believe this has devalued the title in anyway. Other Institutions, for example, the IET, require someone with an Ordinary Degree to have postgraduate experience before awarding them the title of MIET.

Ask him are we ever going to see a copy of the Engineers Journal without an article on construction or Infrastructure in it? There is more to Engineering than Civil. When was the last time any of the following Disciplines were featured: Aeronautical, Agricultural, Biomedical, Chemical, Computer, Electrical, Electronic, Environmental etc etc. I'm sick of reading about the latest projects from PM Group, RPS etc

pljudge321

Ask what he thinks of the new maths curriculum that is being implemented and if he feels that it adequately prepares students entering level 8 engineering courses.

godtabh

pljudge321 wrote: »

Ask what he thinks of the new maths curriculum that is being implemented and if he feels that it adequately prepares students entering level 8 engineering courses.

I think (from what I read) he feels more work is needed hence asking for engineers to retrain as maths teachers

T-Square

Ask him

1. How many engineers are receiving benefits from the fund which members contribute to.
2. How much they are receiving on average weekly.
3. What percentage of members does that represent.
4. How long does the helping money continue for.
5. Ask him what he thinks the most important contribution Engineers Ireland made in 2009, don't accept waffle.

folan

Why was there no public face from Engineers Ireland when I believe it was the Tainiste claimed the engineers were not pulling their wieght, and then followed this by encouraging IEI members to vote for Lisbon.

I would prefer no political commentary, or a balanced one.

godtabh

folan wrote: »

Why was there no public face from Engineers Ireland when I believe it was the Tainiste claimed the engineers were not pulling their wieght, and then followed this by encouraging IEI members to vote for Lisbon.

I would prefer no political commentary, or a balanced one.

thats one of the questions i was going to ask.

dan_d

testicle wrote: »

Ask him why they started accepting Ordinary Degrees (formerly Diplomas) as acceptable qualifications for MIEI. Ask him does he believe this has devalued the title in anyway. Other Institutions, for example, the IET, require someone with an Ordinary Degree to have postgraduate experience before awarding them the title of MIET.

On this subject, there is work going on in the EI on reserving certain functions to certain qualifications in engineering - ie, chartered etc (I've sent you a PM). Do ask him, however, are they going to do anything about the fact that the title "engineer" can be used by anyone, regardless of qualification, in this country.

Folan I've also sent you a pm.....the response I received from John Power when I asked him that question a few months ago.

Ask him why there are no engineers in Gov - we are problem solvers - we need to be where the problems are. And why we don't stand up for ourselves - we do ourselves no favours as a profession. Ask him why he's not commenting more on maths curriculums and insisting on a greater input in the maths of primary and secondary. If we're aiming for a Smart Economy, that's what you need engineers for.

I've got to stop now, but my list is long!!!!

godtabh

dan_d wrote: »

On this subject, there is work going on in the EI on reserving certain functions to certain qualifications in engineering - ie, chartered etc (I've sent you a PM). Do ask him, however, are they going to do anything about the fact that the title "engineer" can be used by anyone, regardless of qualification, in this country.

Folan I've also sent you a pm.....the response I received from John Power when I asked him that question a few months ago.

Ask him why there are no engineers in Gov - we are problem solvers - we need to be where the problems are. And why we don't stand up for ourselves - we do ourselves no favours as a profession. Ask him why he's not commenting more on maths curriculums and insisting on a greater input in the maths of primary and secondary. If we're aiming for a Smart Economy, that's what you need engineers for.

I've got to stop now, but my list is long!!!!

could you sned me that PM?

dan_d

Give me a minute!!!!!

ManFromAtlantis

dan_d wrote: »

Do ask him, however, are they going to do anything about the fact that the title "engineer" can be used by anyone, regardless of qualification, in this country.

yea, the 'architects' have done something on their title.

i dont know tho if he has the power to make it a protected title.

godtabh

dan_d wrote: »

Give me a minute!!!!!

Got that thanks.

I emailed JP on the same issue and got no response. The issue I had with EI response was that it wasnt a public response. I understood the message but though tit could be louder

folan

Actually, I have another question

How does the IEI hope to increasae the number of young women taking an interest in Engineering.

My little sister is doing the Leaving Cert, and shes great with math, problem solving and so on, but i asked her if shed do engineering and she told me point blank no, she doesnt know what they do and its all men anyway.

Also, dan_d, problem solving isnt all engineers do, we also create them. Im a test engineer!

godtabh

Most of what we learn in college is problem solving in one form or other.

Alot of the girls I know who did engineering did it to get this skill set and move on.

folan

godtabh wrote: »

Most of what we learn in college is problem solving in one form or other.

This is one of the problems though, and we can see it mainly in the falling levels of quality, safety and reliability (see Toyota, Bridges + Adobe). Solving problems is well and good, but how do you identify possible problems before they occur.

There was a good talk a while ago on this by IEI (JP himself I think)

testicle

dan_d wrote: »

On this subject, there is work going on in the EI on reserving certain functions to certain qualifications in engineering - ie, chartered etc (I've sent you a PM). Do ask him, however, are they going to do anything about the fact that the title "engineer" can be used by anyone, regardless of qualification, in this country.

No PM received.

Red Alert

1) I'm definitely in favor of removing/not awarding the MIEI from people with Diplomas. Were they not previously allowed be Associate Members or something? No other professional body would allow the hard work of its professional members to be devalued in this way. Why did they make this change in the first place?

2) Why did the MIEI not defend the public image of its members when Mary Coughlan claimed we were a high-cost profession. Engineers, compared to many other similarly qualified professions, give good value for money. The IEI should promote this viewpoint in the media.

Red Alert

3) They should introduce some form of professional recognition for people who are doing PhD's. Maybe establish a charter-track programme or similar to reward and foster the transferable skills that Engineers who choose to undertake a PhD have.

Red Alert

Can you send me the reply re: the ordinary degrees as well.

Apologies for the triple post folks.

-Trek-

Red Alert wrote: »

1) I'm definitely in favor of removing/not awarding the MIEI from people with Diplomas. Were they not previously allowed be Associate Members or something? No other professional body would allow the hard work of its professional members to be devalued in this way. Why did they make this change in the first place?

To generate more revenue IMO

Fiskar

I have a dilema at the moment, I have to renew my membership of the IEI and am asking myself why and what for?
I never get communications from them, they run no exhibitions that I know of. They seem to be a very low profile organisation, The Heritage council sends out more monthly newsletters (by email) than Engineers Ireland!

Diabhal_Glas

dan_d wrote: »

Do ask him, however, are they going to do anything about the fact that the title "engineer" can be used by anyone, regardless of qualification, in this country.

Its the same in the UK, the title should be protected somehow. Honestly when you tell people you are an Engineer in the UK half the time they think you are the guy that comes around to fix the gas boiler.

Strangely enough the word is given serious respect in Europe and the States.

pljudge321

Diabhal_Glas wrote: »

Its the same in the UK, the title should be protected somehow. Honestly when you tell people you are an Engineer in the UK half the time they think you are the guy that comes around to fix the gas boiler.

Strangely enough the word is given serious respect in Europe and the States.

I believe in France Engineer is used as your title, much is the same was as doctor would be. Of course here engineers are the guys who come out to fix the washing machine.

godtabh

Fiskar wrote: »

I have a dilema at the moment, I have to renew my membership of the IEI and am asking myself why and what for?
I never get communications from them, they run no exhibitions that I know of. They seem to be a very low profile organisation, The Heritage council sends out more monthly newsletters (by email) than Engineers Ireland!

I dont believe this to be true.

I get the egineers journal every month. I get daily updates on course, events and general infomraiton on engineers ireland. Its not up to Enigneers Ireland to spoon feed you.

folan

once you have an online account, all these things gadtabh says are available to you.

Its actually quite worth taking an hour one evening and having a good look around the site. Its very improved since I first joined. Only thing is I havent recieved the journel in a while now i think about it, although there was usually little that interested me in it.

The strength of the engineering title is something I would like to see improved, as mentioned by a few.

godtabh

This months issue appears to cover jan/feb. I got mine a while ago

Pembily

godtabh wrote: »

Most of what we learn in college is problem solving in one form or other.

Alot of the girls I know who did engineering did it to get this skill set and move on.

I am a girl, final year Mech Eng, only girl in a class of 30 and I want to be a Mech Eng... Don't wanna move on!!!

Something should be done to attract girls though, many are scared, especially of Mech Eng as its about cars - I can drive my car, change the basics, charge battery etc but if it dies I am buggered!!! Engineering needs to be girlified

Turbulent Bill

Red Alert wrote: »

3) They should introduce some form of professional recognition for people who are doing PhD's. Maybe establish a charter-track programme or similar to reward and foster the transferable skills that Engineers who choose to undertake a PhD have.

I raised this at a chartership open evening a good while back. The basic issue is that the chartership process doesn't explicited account for people who have done / are doing postgrads: it's based on the primary degree, CPD and work experience but little else. In reality most postgrads (and every PhD) already has hands-on experience of project management, development etc. as part of their studies.

From memory I was told that the PhD would cover your CPD requirements and some of the work experience (if you can demonstrate it). Nothing formal though, seems to be treated case-by-case.

Ninja101

godtabh wrote: »

I dont believe this to be true.

I get the egineers journal every month. I get daily updates on course, events and general infomraiton on engineers ireland. Its not up to Enigneers Ireland to spoon feed you.

The Engineers journal is a joke. The courses are ridiculously overpriced and could be just as easily learned from a book. There is no justification for the exorbitant membership fee considering they don't even protect the title "Engineer". They do nothing but talk shop about how much they are "doing", which is what exactly? There are lots of vague generalities like "general information on engineers Ireland". WTF does that even mean?

godtabh

OK I'm just back from it now

While some but not all of the items where discussed it was a decent meeting

Some of the points of note

Couglans rant

At the time she was under a lot of pressure from different sections. EI response would be lost in the noise of everything else. It may also affect future relations with the goverment such Cowens apperance last year

Level 7

This is the first stage of an on going process. EI are looking at going down the French/German approach. It takes time but I am in agreement with this

Chatership

It is skewed towards civil/structural at present but through CPD Accreditation that more onus will be give to try and make it more popular to other engineers

Engineers Journal

There is a good mix of stuff in it. Read it!

Fiskar wrote: »

I have a dilema at the moment, I have to renew my membership of the IEI and am asking myself why and what for?
I never get communications from them, they run no exhibitions that I know of. They seem to be a very low profile organisation, The Heritage council sends out more monthly newsletters (by email) than Engineers Ireland!

Are you a memer with upto date infomraiton? At the very least you should be getting the Enigneers Journal if not there is something wrong.

Ninja101 wrote: »

The Engineers journal is a joke. The courses are ridiculously overpriced and could be just as easily learned from a book. There is no justification for the exorbitant membership fee considering they don't even protect the title "Engineer". They do nothing but talk shop about how much they are "doing", which is what exactly? There are lots of vague generalities like "general information on engineers Ireland". WTF does that even mean?

Offering €175 off for members, 50% discount for unemployed people and 3 day weekers is a good starting point.

In house courses are €1000 flat fee (plus expenses).

Before ranting read up on it first

dan_d

Diabhal_Glas wrote: »

Its the same in the UK, the title should be protected somehow. Honestly when you tell people you are an Engineer in the UK half the time they think you are the guy that comes around to fix the gas boiler.

Strangely enough the word is given serious respect in Europe and the States.

Yeah, I know engineers from both Europe and the states, and I know the attitude towards the engineering profession there....that's why I ask the question. I'm trying to be a snob or anything, I just think that we've allowed our profession to become....de-valued, for want of a better word - and it's something we should try and do something about.

jomo99

Red Alert wrote: »

1) I'm definitely in favor of removing/not awarding the MIEI from people with Diplomas. Were they not previously allowed be Associate Members or something? No other professional body would allow the hard work of its professional members to be devalued in this way. Why did they make this change in the first place?

2) Why did the MIEI not defend the public image of its members when Mary Coughlan claimed we were a high-cost profession. Engineers, compared to many other similarly qualified professions, give good value for money. The IEI should promote this viewpoint in the media.

I'd like to know why you think people like myself with "only" a H dip are not as skilled, valued, etc, and not entitled to be MIEI. I have been in this profession for 20 + years, and I have met many Degree educated, and higher, that can't use there head or there hands,

John

quietsailor

jomo99 wrote: »

I'd like to know why you think people like myself with "only" a H dip are not as skilled, valued, etc, and not entitled to be MIEI. I have been in this profession for 20 + years, and I have met many Degree educated, and higher, that can't use there head or there hands,

John

I have to second the above,

I DO agree that the title of Engineer is being abused - Sanitation Engineer is my personal pet peeve but I can't condone a blanket ban on everyone who doesn't hold a degree. I qualified in 1996 with a Dip. in Marine and Plant Engineering, by law, both Irish and International (UN Safety Of Life At Sea - SOLAS - regulations) no other form of engineers can do my job, it's too specialised.

Does this make me a better engineer than the rest of the Mech, Process etc Engineers - it doesn't. However that training has allowed personally allowed me to work in the Pharma and Renewables industries so it's transferrable knowledge. Yet I (and other Marine Engineers) who qualified in the 90's are being told we shouldn't be allowed to call ourselves Engineers. My training is superior to yours from an O&M viewpoint as I can work in the Marine, Power, Pharma, Renewables, Refining etc etc areas yet you'll be refused if you attempt to work in the Marine Industry as a ship's Engineer. How can you argue that your better than me and that I'm not entitled to call myself an Engineer when you'll never be allowed to work in an Engineering discipline


I'll put forward another line of argument - Engineering isn't a static discipline, new ideas are put forward, new methods created, old ideas and methods evolve. So someone who trained in the 80's and received a Degree wouldn't have the knowledge of a Degree graduate today. Should we strip the title of Engineer from anyone who qualified in the 80's or before but who hasn't undergone CPD? There are a lot of those engineers out there.

Ninja101

The title should be protected. If you want it, do the degree, simple as that. I'm sure there are nurses who know more than doctors but they dont go around demanding to be called doctor.

The subscription fee at the moment €255 for an ordinary member which is ridiculously high, and for what? And if you really think €1000 is acceptable for a course, which could be learned from a book for nothing, there must be something in it for you. Perhaps you're giving the course yourself?

testicle

jomo99 wrote: »

I'd like to know why you think people like myself with "only" a H dip are not as skilled, valued, etc, and not entitled to be MIEI. I have been in this profession for 20 + years, and I have met many Degree educated, and higher, that can't use there head or there hands,

John

Seeing as I brought up the point originally, I'll answer it. Firstly, it wasn't against anyone with a H Dip, H Dips are for teachers as far as I am aware. My point was about those with what was known as a Diploma up until 2004 or 2005 or so. Thia qualification is now an Ordinary Degree under the Bologna Agreement.

A Diploma, or now an Ordinary Degree is awarded after 3 years of undergraduate study. This is not enough to qualify anyone as an Engineer. I believe, under the protected title of Engineer in Germany, you must have 5 years of undergraduate study to qualify as an Engineer, which leaves our MIEI open to question originally, not to mind when the IEI devalued it further.

The IEE in the UK, now the IET, allow those with Ordinary Degrees to become MIET, but only after a period of postgraduate experience. The IEI will allow anyone with an Ordinary Degree to become MIEI, without any experience hence part of the problem rating similarly qualified Irish Engineers against their UK counterparts. Irish Engineers can join the IET btw.

Another discrepency is someone who has a 4 year degree under the old scheme, at Pass level. Even now, someone with a pass Level 8 Degree. Is their qualification the same as a newly qualified Ordinary Degree holder?

The IEI don't give a rats testicle about postgraduate experience until you go for CEng, so the fact that you have 20 years after your "H Dip" is irrelevent when you're talking about MIEI.

Membership of IEI - €255
Membership of IET - £117

I resigned my membership of the IEI earlier this year, after nearly 10 years. I joined the IET at the same time. For half the rate, I get the same membership, and a lot more out of it. The IET is a lot more relevent for me (BEng Computer Engineering) than the IEI (which hasn't moved on from the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland)

Dilbert75

Ninja101 wrote: »

if you really think €1000 is acceptable for a course, which could be learned from a book for nothing, there must be something in it for you. Perhaps you're giving the course yourself?

For what its worth there are lots of organisations out there taking massive training money for something you could read in a book - its not confined to any one.

x in the city

Im doing a hdip,its a level 9. same as masters.? why would a h dip be sneeered at.

Fiskar

Quote "Are you a memer with upto date infomraiton? At the very least you should be getting the Enigneers Journal if not there is something wrong."


No , excuse my ignorance but is the journal monthly or yearly?

godtabh

Fiskar wrote: »

Quote "Are you a memer with upto date infomraiton? At the very least you should be getting the Enigneers Journal if not there is something wrong."


No , excuse my ignorance but is the journal monthly or yearly?

Every second month I think. If your not a member what are you complaining about?

Fiskar

godtabh wrote: »

Every second month I think. If your not a member what are you complaining about?

I am actually a member. I am not sure I will renew my membership due last month.

dan_d

testicle wrote: »

Seeing as I brought up the point originally, I'll answer it. Firstly, it wasn't against anyone with a H Dip, H Dips are for teachers as far as I am aware. My point was about those with what was known as a Diploma up until 2004 or 2005 or so. Thia qualification is now an Ordinary Degree under the Bologna Agreement.

A Diploma, or now an Ordinary Degree is awarded after 3 years of undergraduate study. This is not enough to qualify anyone as an Engineer. I believe, under the protected title of Engineer in Germany, you must have 5 years of undergraduate study to qualify as an Engineer, which leaves our MIEI open to question originally, not to mind when the IEI devalued it further.

The IEE in the UK, now the IET, allow those with Ordinary Degrees to become MIET, but only after a period of postgraduate experience. The IEI will allow anyone with an Ordinary Degree to become MIEI, without any experience hence part of the problem rating similarly qualified Irish Engineers against their UK counterparts. Irish Engineers can join the IET btw.

Another discrepency is someone who has a 4 year degree under the old scheme, at Pass level. Even now, someone with a pass Level 8 Degree. Is their qualification the same as a newly qualified Ordinary Degree holder?

The IEI don't give a rats testicle about postgraduate experience until you go for CEng, so the fact that you have 20 years after your "H Dip" is irrelevent when you're talking about MIEI.

Membership of IEI - €255
Membership of IET - £117

I resigned my membership of the IEI earlier this year, after nearly 10 years. I joined the IET at the same time. For half the rate, I get the same membership, and a lot more out of it. The IET is a lot more relevent for me (BEng Computer Engineering) than the IEI (which hasn't moved on from the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland)

Can I also add that in Canada, you are not allowed to use the title "engineer" even if that was your qualification, until you have passed their "professional" exams, which is the equivalent of our chartership. I have a friend over there, a qualified civil engineer with a MAsters and a over a year's experience in Ireland who cannot call herself an engineer. She has to say she's a "member of a geotech team" or something to that effect. You can only say you're an engineer if you've done this exam, which requries a min of 5 yrs experience (post grad courses count) and includes a law and ethics exam, a presentation and a thesis/report. Following that, you are a "professional engineer". You then receive a stamp with your name and title - to sign off designs etc. - among other things. The requriements vary slightly across Canada, but the basic idea is the same

Honestly, when you think of all the talk about "smart economies" here, which engineers should be a huge part of....we can't hold a candle to regulation like that.

godtabh

dan_d wrote: »

Can I also add that in Canada, you are not allowed to use the title "engineer" even if that was your qualification, until you have passed their "professional" exams, which is the equivalent of our chartership. I have a friend over there, a qualified civil engineer with a MAsters and a over a year's experience in Ireland who cannot call herself an engineer. She has to say she's a "member of a geotech team" or something to that effect. You can only say you're an engineer if you've done this exam, which requries a min of 5 yrs experience (post grad courses count) and includes a law and ethics exam, a presentation and a thesis/report. Following that, you are a "professional engineer". You then receive a stamp with your name and title - to sign off designs etc. - among other things. The requriements vary slightly across Canada, but the basic idea is the same

Honestly, when you think of all the talk about "smart economies" here, which engineers should be a huge part of....we can't hold a candle to regulation like that.

Same applies in America. Difference in America is that each state has its own rules and to practice in another state you need to apply again.

with Engineers Ireland you can buy a seal once chartered. Its expensive though

quietsailor

testicle wrote: »

A Diploma, or now an Ordinary Degree is awarded after 3 years of undergraduate study. QUOTE]

I've also completed 3 seperate professional qualifications in my career. These are set and examined by the Dept of the Marine and Nat. Resources (that Dept's name has changed since I took them) and have been verified internationally. Now hands up those who's CPD (NOT your original Degree) is subject to international scrutiny? And I don't mean by a company in another country but by another's country's Government. To be exact the scrutiny originates with the UN.

So seeing as I probably have a higher standard of scrutiny than most of ye am I a better Engineer?

As you mentioned Bologna there are moves afoot to allow level 7 plus certain CPD training to count as a level 8 degree. So if you apply a blanket ban to all Diploma holding Engineers immediately how will the mess be sorted out when these rules come into effect?

I believe, under the protected title of Engineer in Germany, you must have 5 years of undergraduate study to qualify as an Engineer.
So by the reasoning on here a person with 5 years study (a level 8 degree) and no field experience is more qualified and thus safer to put in charge of a plant and process than a person with a Diploma (level 7) and eg, as someone said above, 20 yrs experience? In no industry I ever worked in will you be able to fly that kite lad. In fact I'd say your own knowledge plus skills and thus continuing employment would soon be brought into question if you try to implement that policy. As in - "there's the door, don't let it hit you on the way out".
Maybe ye all mean something else, if you do your not explaining it very well. So far the rhetoric on here is "if he/she has a diploma strip them of the title, they're lesser beings"

quietsailor

One more thing,

I posted this seperately so it would be clearer and not get lost in the ideas of my post above.

I do agree that the title Engineer is being diluted
I do agree we need to make our Engineering courses better and longer - a lot of the Engineering Degree course I'm doing is being rattled out just to get through it. No thought is given to making sure the students understand the lectures. It's like the Leaving Cert - there's a method of passing and once you understand that understanding the subject itself is not as important. A lot of Irish Degree programmes would benefit by being extended to 5 years.

quietsailor

Originally posted by dan_d
Can I also add that in Canada, you are not allowed to use the title "engineer" even if that was your qualification, until you have passed their "professional" exams, which is the equivalent of our chartership. I have a friend over there, a qualified civil engineer with a MAsters and a over a year's experience in Ireland who cannot call herself an engineer. She has to say she's a "member of a geotech team" or something to that effect. You can only say you're an engineer if you've done this exam, which requries a min of 5 yrs experience (post grad courses count) and includes a law and ethics exam, a presentation and a thesis/report. Following that, you are a "professional engineer". You then receive a stamp with your name and title - to sign off designs etc. - among other things. The requriements vary slightly across Canada, but the basic idea is the same
Originally Posted by Red Alert
I'm definitely in favor of removing/not awarding the MIEI from people with Diplomas. Were they not previously allowed be Associate Members or something? No other professional body would allow the hard work of its professional members to be devalued in this way. Why did they make this change in the first place?

I quoted the entire paragraphs above to give context but the points I want/need for my argument are the ones in bold;

Red Alert, your saying that anyone with a Dip. should have the title of Engineer stripped from them, well if we follow international best paractice (Canada) then we should strip EVERYONE who doesn't have a Chartered after their name of the title Engineer -- Soooo how many of ye want to start stripping Engineer from people's names now?
How many of the people on here advocating title stripping for anyone with a Dip would be brave enough to admit they don't meet international best practice and would be willing to remove "Engineer" from after their name until they have trained further to gain Charteredship.**
Those two questions are specifically aimed at; (but anyone can answer and I'd like to see as many answers as possible)
testicle
dan_d
Red Alert
Ninja 101
They're not attempts to mock ye or cause trolling, I want to know if you insist on minimum standards will you be part of the process and agree to strip Engineer from after your name, as you insist Dip graduates must, if the minimum standards rise above what you have now.
(I don't know what you have/what you have done professionally - you could be someone with several phds plus 20 yrs as a Project Manager or you could be graduated 1 yr form a level 8 degree, the questions applies to all skill sets.)


Godtabh, you started this thread requesting questions for the IEI, will you be bringing this pint up with the IEI - that all the people out there in Industry that only have level 8 degrees should be stripped of the title Engineer?


**Before I get the eternal reply - "well why aren't you doing it", I am. I'm back in college studying for a level 8 degree and I'll be enquiring off the IEI and IMarEST (Marine Engineers Institute) about how to advance to Chartered Engineer

godtabh

I already had the meeting and posted the outcome.

I do believe going down the role of PE like in Canada/America is the way to go but how to do that is the problem

quietsailor

godtabh wrote: »

I already had the meeting and posted the outcome.

I do believe going down the role of PE like in Canada/America is the way to go but how to do that is the problem

Can we get the Irish regs altered so that from eg 2020 anyone wishing to call themselves an engineer must be Chartered. That brings us in line with International best practice and all Diploma and Degree qualified engineers have time to go back to college plus finish their CPD to the standard required. Make it a requirement that all Dip and Degree qualified people must either go back to education plus do the relevant CPD by the same date to get the title or submit an application by eg 2015 showing why their current qualification, CPD and experience should give them an exemption.

We need to do something about this and soon, the title Engineer is a joke in Ireland, someone with no formal education beyond a Junior Cert collecting bins is entitled to calls themselves an engineer in this country.

dan_d

quietsailor in response to your question, I would. If I happen to be put in a position where I have to emigrate, I would choose Canada, in which case, I would have to remove that title.

I'm finding the layout of your post a bit hard to read, but I am not insisting that the Dip qualification be stripped from people. What I suggest we start with is simply making it practice that you cannot call yourself something like a "windows engineer", or a maintenance engineer", when that means you fit windows all day, or clean buildings. That, to me, is the starting point.

I completely agree with you that experience has to count. I also think that we have put ourselves in a position in this country where we have a huge variety of qualifications that are engineering based but not all necessarily to the same level. However we also have people with a lot of experience. In that case, we need to try and establish a system whereby we break the regulation into different levels - possibly a simple "chartered" isn't enough.

That's just a suggestion but I do think it's something that needs to be looked into now as we can't go on as we are.

quietsailor

dan_d wrote: »

quietsailor in response to your question, I would. If I happen to be put in a position where I have to emigrate, I would choose Canada, in which case, I would have to remove that title.

I'm finding the layout of your post a bit hard to read, but I am not insisting that the Dip qualification be stripped from people. What I suggest we start with is simply making it practice that you cannot call yourself something like a "windows engineer", or a maintenance engineer", when that means you fit windows all day, or clean buildings. That, to me, is the starting point.

I completely agree with you that experience has to count. I also think that we have put ourselves in a position in this country where we have a huge variety of qualifications that are engineering based but not all necessarily to the same level. However we also have people with a lot of experience. In that case, we need to try and establish a system whereby we break the regulation into different levels - possibly a simple "chartered" isn't enough.

That's just a suggestion but I do think it's something that needs to be looked into now as we can't go on as we are.

Sorry for the multiple posts, it does amke things hard to read but I had too many things to get out of my system.

If what you've posted above is what the thread originally meant then i do owe ye an apology, this is what I want to see happen --- a more careful use of the title engineer and to have some regualtory body - either at government level or professional level making sure the rules are obeyed.

I wonder at what level Chartered is seen worldwide. It should be the pinnacle of the Engineering profession, something that is hard work to achieve and almost a "crowning glory" and not merely another title after your name. For that reason I think the Canadian model is a good one. In a perfect world we could (quickly) look at the best practices worldwide and then pick the most suitable of them as our model for Ireland. Sadly I don't think that'll ever happen.

godtabh

[QUOTE=quietsailor;64640079

I wonder at what level Chartered is seen worldwide. It should be the pinnacle of the Engineering profession, something that is hard work to achieve and almost a "crowning glory" and not merely another title after your name.

[/QUOTE]

Thats the way I see it.

spideog7

I agree with the professional engineer approach and something to the equivalent of a bar exam in law. From my understanding of it though, the term chartered engineers seems to be reserved for Civil, Structural and perhaps Mechanical Engineers and isn't so sought after in other disciplines, such as my own Electronic. Is this just an EI thing (as they seem to be mostly aimed at those industries anyway) or is just a trend.

BTW I was a member of Engineers Ireland but saw no advantageous reason to shell out E127 to join them again this year.