Project Maths sample paper

pathway33

What do you think of the project maths sample paper?

http://www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=sc&sc=ma

zam

Wow. don't really understand how it's fair for these people to be taking it?

Cian92

Just looked at the higher level paper, WOW - the most dumbed down thing I ever saw... If only I was young enough to do it. I can't bring myself to even look at the ordinary level paper.

I just double checked to see if it was the LC version I was looking at. It is.

jumpguy

Wow! :eek: I thought I might've clicked on the pass paper by accident. It seems very user-friendly anyway, with space of the question paper for answers. It's pretty much bursting with practicality, very little abstract stuff in it at all! I'm incredibly jealous I missed out on this course. It's gonna be unfair for the crowd who have to take the normal honours paper 2 against those who take this honours paper 2.

I don't think it's very watered-down, I can't do alot of questions on it (well, I'm only in 5th year), but it's very practical and seems quite interesting. I'm pretty impressed in it, it'll make maths much more interesting I think. I'm sickened I'm not doing it.

EDIT: What the hell?! Have a look at page 12 question 8! There's questions harder than that on the JC course!

ciano1

I'm taking this at OL

Making It Bad

What the **** was that? This country and its education system is screwed.

Davidius

There's barely any real maths on that paper. What the hell are they doing!? Dumbing it down isn't going to get anybody anywhere.

DancingQueen:)

Can't believe the differences between our course and this one :eek: Seems so much nicer.

almostnever

I'm sorry,but that,to me,is a joke. I am completely speechless.

ciano1

And apparently we'll be marked easier too because we're the first year taking it!
Well thats what one of the people involved in project maths told us , that we'll be 'looked after'

Jako8

Aww come on! That higher paper is a joke!

Why do they have to make changes?

jumpguy

ciano1 wrote: »

And apparently we'll be marked easier too because we're the first year taking it!
Well thats what one of the people involved in project maths told us , that we'll be 'looked after'

That kinda makes me sick tbh.

Evan93

I thought they were supposed to be making maths harder?

If this is evidence that maths is becoming more difficult for the student then the government are wrong once again.

The paper is ridicusouly easy for an honours paper. The full co-ord geometry question is like a part (a) of the normal maths paper.

Whats's the story with this project maths, is it being implemented in every school over the next number of years or is it only for an exclusive number of schools or what?

DancingQueen:)

I heard they were making it easier but that is a bit over the top imo. Transition years in my school are starting it now and i know that my maths teacher hates teaching it. She thinks it's a bit ridiculous for people who have learned how to maths one way for three years and then to learn a whole different way.

pathway33

Evan93 wrote: »

Whats's the story with this project maths, is it being implemented in every school over the next number of years or is it only for an exclusive number of schools or what?

Every 5th year (i.e 2012 LCers) will be starting project maths from september. There's 5 strands to project maths and the 2012 LCers will do strands 1 and 2 of project maths. I presume they will do the relevant bits of the current syllabus then until strands 3,4,5 are implemented.

It'll be september 2012 before the entire 5th year cohort (2014 LCers) are studying the entire project maths syllabus.

That's how it's all going to work out....i think

Lawliet

So is this course completely replacing the current maths?
...I guess that's one way to encourage people to take up honours...

rebel girl 15

DancingQueen:) wrote: »

I heard they were making it easier but that is a bit over the top imo. Transition years in my school are starting it now and i know that my maths teacher hates teaching it. She thinks it's a bit ridiculous for people who have learned how to maths one way for three years and then to learn a whole different way.

I agree, the current LC syllabus builds on the JC syllabus - there is no real point in changing the syllabus from 3rd year, it should have been brought in in first year rather than 5th year.

DancingQueen:)

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

I agree, the current LC syllabus builds on the JC syllabus - there is no real point in changing the syllabus from 3rd year, it should have been brought in in first year rather than 5th year.

Yeah it makes sense to do it like that. I think it's a bit strange how much of a jump it is from the honours course in both tests You wouldn't know it was an honours leaving cert paper.

amacachi

That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. I would absolutely love to hear what my old maths teacher has to say about it.

It's also nothing short of disgraceful that some students will be getting points from this toward their CAO applications over the next few years while others won't, it's a handy extra few points.

rebel girl 15

amacachi wrote: »

That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. I would absolutely love to hear what my old maths teacher has to say about it.

It's also nothing short of disgraceful that some students will be getting points from this toward their CAO applications over the next few years while others won't, it's a handy extra few points.

I'm gonna end up teaching this syllabus soon, and I'm planning on heading into my old school to have a chat with my old maths teacher about it.

I agree that it is unfair that the students sitting the paper will benefit from an easier paper, but what I would love to see is the marking scheme - will the marking scheme be harder than the established paper to even the papers up? Especially at honours level, with the fact that UL offer an extra 40 points per A1 @ honours (which I presume they will still do)

amacachi

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

I'm gonna end up teaching this syllabus soon, and I'm planning on heading into my old school to have a chat with my old maths teacher about it.

I agree that it is unfair that the students sitting the paper will benefit from an easier paper, but what I would love to see is the marking scheme - will the marking scheme be harder than the established paper to even the papers up? Especially at honours level, with the fact that UL offer an extra 40 points per A1 @ honours (which I presume they will still do)

My maths teacher when I was starting 5th year in 2005 was giving out loads about the most recent "changes to" (read: "Bits removed from") the higher level course at that point, so I'd love to see the reaction to this. I'm not sure how much they're removing from the syllabus but the paper just looks absolutely ridiculous.
To be perfectly honest if I were a maths teacher I would be very annoyed for a number of reasons, not least because I would feel that my worth had been massively devalued. Though maybe that's just me.

Trouble is there'll be a lot of people who would have been doing ordinary level who will now do higher, so they will account for those getting low Cs and below, while those who would be getting a C now could easily get a high B to an A.

Making It Bad

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Especially at honours level, with the fact that UL offer an extra 40 points per A1 @ honours (which I presume they will still do)

Can't see them continuing to do this seeing as they did that merger thing with Galway today, that is unless Galway start offering extra points as well.

rebel girl 15

Making It Bad wrote: »

Can't see them continuing to do this seeing as they did that merger thing with Galway today, that is unless Galway start offering extra points as well.

What merger? could u give me a link?

pathway33

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

what I would love to see is the marking scheme

tis underneath the sample papers in the 111 page trialling report. Higher marking scheme starts page 12 i think.

Hope you're sitting down reading it

Making It Bad

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

What merger? could u give me a link?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0215/education.html

rebel girl 15

pathway33 wrote: »

tis underneath the sample papers in the 111 page trialling report. Higher marking scheme starts page 12 i think.

Hope you're sitting down reading it

What a confusing marking scheme! What is most remarkable about this whole project maths thing is the huge step that they have taken away from current curriculum design (which is actually a topic we are covering at the moment). The way it used be was that a draft syllabus was drawn up, put out for consultation and changed on those recommendations, and the exam came out of it, whereas the exam is coming from a draft syllabus itself, so I can definitely see change in the paper over the next few years.

I'm gonna have a proper read through the whole thing in the morning, the syllabus and all, and post back as to my thoughts on it. I've a feeling that this won't be the last major educational change we will see in Ireland, the curriculum at both junior and senior cycle is undergoing a major review at the moment!

pathway33

Quote from page 109 paragraph 2 of the trialling report:

"Any of the questions or question parts on the Foundation level sample paper could equally well appear on the Ordinary or Higher level papers."

Liveit

wow, that just makes me sick. Now there will be people doing that course that will get an A or B when they would fail the older course. It is so much easier than our course, that I could nearly go to the high court over it! It is a disgrace we are doing our course at the same time as this one.

randylonghorn

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

What merger? could u give me a link?

Making It Bad wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0215/education.html

Hmmm, merger seems like much too strong a word tbh ...

In any case, if you / anybody wishes to discuss this / the possible implications for current LC students, I would suggest a new thread.

Though I'm not sure that brief statement really gives much to discuss as yet.

mercury127

The bell curve will still be adhered to, marking will be merciless.

dambarude

I read through some posts here before opening the pdf of the higher paper, but nothing that was said prepared me for what I saw. I am speechless. I really can't believe what they've done to paper two.

The aim of project maths was, I thought, to improve mathematical standards in our LCers. I can't see how these changes will do this- it has been dumbed down quite considerably. If there was to be an intermediary paper between higher and ordinary, this is probably how I would envisage it. But I'd never have thought that this would be of higher level standard.

The whole thing seems very messy. Looking at the marking scheme, I don't like the subjectivity that seems to be creeping in. I liked maths because, for the most part, you were either on the right track, or you weren't. This whole full credit/high partial credit/mid partial credit/low partial credit is something I don't like. I also don't think it is a good idea having to fill out the answers in the spaces provided. Maths often, if not always, requires a few attempts at a question before you can get a correct answer. But you are only given one picture of the pylon in q8 to draw around- it could get very messy if you change your mind about how you'll answer the question after marking in. Even in the normal, non-diagramattic questions you could need a few attempts at a question, and the whole business of writing in the additional space at the back is just troublesome, and undoubtedly harder to correct.

On a personal level, I dont' like the new emphasis on statistics and probability in paper two. They're topics that I didn't particularly like when I did HL Maths two years ago. Paper two was my favourite paper, because of the different emphasis to paper one. Paper one was fairly abstract and numerically based- algebra, sequences and series etc. Paper two was more geometrically based- co-ordinate geometry, vectors, etc. But now paper two is gone all numerical as well.

Another thing I personally don't like is the lack of choice. I know there were complaints with the old course about teachers chopping and choosing which areas would or wouldn't be covered, and this is probably the reason for making everything compulsory now. But nearly every other exam, (if not every other exam) has some form of choice. Some people just do not like, or find specific chunks of the course harder than others. As I said, I personally hated probability.

Phew! Sorry about the length of my rant!

amacachi

mercury127 wrote: »

The bell curve will still be adhered to, marking will be merciless.

Yes, but there'll be more people doing it, so those who would usually have been doing Ordinary maths will take up the lower marks, so all those who would've been doing higher maths will be further up the curve than they would be usually. Very unfair to those doing the old paper.

Fringe

What is up with the proof layout thing? The whole step by step method. It's almost like it's expecting you to learn off proofs rather than properly understanding them. This is terrible with what they're doing to maths. There's so many nice things about maths. In paper 2, there were some nice show that xxxx questions but it looks like they're completely gone.

pathway33

I think according to the timetable for project maths http://www.projectmaths.ie/overview/ the full changes to paper 2 won't become apparent until strands 3 and 4 are implemented. At the moment I think the sample paper takes account of strands 1 and 2 only. It will be september 2011 before 5th years (2013 LCers) start studying strands 3 and 4 and therefore the full new paper 2. But still like....come on :eek:

The___________

So I guess none of you lot are actually doing project maths then?
Well I'm and i sat that sample paper in nov/oct before you complain about how 'easy' it is you have too study the marking scheme it is BRUTAL.

After the exam our teacher copied our scripts before she sent them away,she corrected them using the standard marking scheme which involves losing 3 marks per mistake(so if you make a mistake in the first line of a 20 marker you can still get 17 marks for that question).Our results under this method were good mainly 75+ percent.

However when our scripts were finally returned after 4 MONTHS we all got a shock the marking scheme involves 'stages' i.e in a 20 mark question there will be a 5,10,15,20 mark stages you have too get a certain level of work done to gain a stage.This means that on mistake in the first line means that you will only get to the 5 mark stage meaning 12 marks lost in comparison to the old method.

All our results were in and around 30-40 percent lower than how our teacher had marked them previously.

dambarude

pathway33 wrote: »

I think according to the timetable for project maths http://www.projectmaths.ie/overview/ the full changes to paper 2 won't become apparent until strands 3 and 4 are implemented. At the moment I think the sample paper takes account of strands 1 and 2 only. It will be september 2011 before 5th years (2013 LCers) start studying strands 3 and 4 and therefore the full new paper 2. But still like....come on :eek:

But are strands 3/4/5 not just the strands that will be examined in Paper 1?

I know this paper is easier, but I'm still glad that I did the older one. I actually liked the old paper two. I don't like the look of this one at all.

pathway33

dambarude wrote: »

But are strands 3/4/5 not just the strands that will be examined in Paper 1?

According to the timetable strands 3 and/or 4 seem to overlap between papers 1 and 2

dambarude

The___________ wrote: »

However when our scripts were finally returned after 4 MONTHS we all got a shock the marking scheme involves 'stages' i.e in a 20 mark question there will be a 5,10,15,20 mark stages you have too get a certain level of work done to gain a stage.This means that on mistake in the first line means that you will only get to the 5 mark stage meaning 12 marks lost in comparison to the old method.

Most questions in the old course had stages of some description too. They probably weren't broken up as much though.

If making a mistake in the first stage means you won't get any marks in the next one, it will be very hard to do well in.

dambarude

pathway33 wrote: »

According to the timetable strands 3 and/or 4 seem to overlap between papers 1 and 2

But if strand 3/4 are number and algebra I don't see how they can overlap significantly.

pathway33

dambarude wrote: »

But if strand 3/4 are number and algebra I don't see how they can overlap significantly.

me neither. But why are they saying for June 2012 there will be changes to paper 2, and for June 2013 there will be a new paper 2. They won't have the new paper 2 until students have completed strands 3 and 4

amacachi

dambarude wrote: »

Most questions in the old course had stages of some description too. They probably weren't broken up as much though.

If making a mistake in the first stage means you won't get any marks in the next one, it will be very hard to do well in.

TBH when the questions are of the standard of that paper they should be all or nothing.

But really, if they're looking to keep the same perceived difficulty then what the hell exactly is the point? If people still think it's hard from the results they're not going to be more likely to do higher maths, so we're going to be stuck with still low numbers doing Higher Maths, but leaving school with an even lower standard. From what I've seen so far in first year of college I really feel for future 1st year if the expected standard in maths falls much further, and for lecturers.

pathway33

Now we know the real reason the maths exam will be dumbed down. It's not to make it easier for the students. It's to make it easier for the teachers
http://www.careerguidance.ie/news/news.php?newsId=307

Fad

pathway33 wrote: »

Now we know the real reason the maths exam will be dumbed down. It's not to make it easier for the students. It's to make it easier for the teachers
http://www.careerguidance.ie/news/news.php?newsId=307

Because there arent enough maths teachers.......think about it, if you have a quota of 40 staff, you're hardly going to hire some one who can just teach maths (Applied Maths at a push) when you can hire a Science teacher who can teach Maths just as adequately, on top of JC Science, an LC Science (maybe even two)...

Mazda

i effing HATE project maths give me th regular paper anyday.. It's ridiculous to turn around and give students a whole new way of learning maths two years before they're to sit the LC. The teachers haven't a clue, we have 1 sample paper and a bunch of crap examples supposed to be our "book". If they'd brought this in from first year and worked it up I think it would have worked out much better, it's so unfair on both the students sitting PM and the students sitting the regular paper.

amacachi

Fad wrote: »

Because there arent enough maths teachers.......think about it, if you have a quota of 40 staff, you're hardly going to hire some one who can just teach maths (Applied Maths at a push) when you can hire a Science teacher who can teach Maths just as adequately, on top of JC Science, an LC Science (maybe even two)...

Should be though. To me maths is above any other subject in terms of the need for the teacher to be qualified beyond the Leaving Cert standard. I won't start making disparaging comments about other subjects but really, maths, languages and the sciences were the one subject I felt that the teachers had a clue beyond what they were reading from the book.

Fringe

It's not just about the difficulty. If this course is to prepare you for university, it's definitely not properly doing it. It looks like matrices are completely gone. The question on vectors is a joke. The further calculus section is gone and the geometry looks like Junior Cert stuff. Even the stats/prob is elementary. I feel sorry for the lecturers who will have to work much harder.

Making It Bad

Fringe wrote: »

It's not just about the difficulty. If this course is to prepare you for university, it's definitely not properly doing it. It looks like matrices are completely gone. The question on vectors is a joke. The further calculus section is gone and the geometry looks like Junior Cert stuff. Even the stats/prob is elementary. I feel sorry for the lecturers who will have to work much harder.

That was my reaction too. Have the universities been consulted about the new syllabus?

rebel girl 15

Making It Bad wrote: »

That was my reaction too. Have the universities been consulted about the new syllabus?

They probably have been - all stakeholders are consulted about any new syllabus, teachers, parents, businesses etc

Jammyc

All I can say is that anyone who wants to study maths in college after doing that shite, will be totally fucked.

rebel girl 15

Jammyc wrote: »

All I can say is that anyone who wants to study maths in college after doing that shite, will be totally fucked.

Yeah, defo +1.

I'm doing maths studies in college and its hard enough having done higher level maths in school, most the maths courses require a C3 in HL afaik, they will be looking for A1's when this syllabus is fully implemented

**Timbuk2**

That paper is a joke! My JC would have been harder than that! Even if somebody got an A1 in that, they would be unprepared for 3rd level Maths. Why are they trying to fix something that isn't broken?