Israeli apartheid

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

The settlements started in 1967, Hamas was founded in 1987. Israel is (mainly) colonising the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, Hamas is based in Gaza. This has come up time and time again in threads you have participated in.

I have to say that that post is so misinformed as to make me suspect that you are looking for reaction, rather than actual discussion.

Earlier you stated


I asked you to "provide examples of the adjacent countries building civillian settlements outside their own borders, and enforcing a two-tier system in those areas."

Do you not regard the mass murder of innocent civilians and ethnic cleansing as far more disastrous aspects of an apartheid system than CONSTRUCTING BUILDINGS ?
That would be a most peculiar value system !

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

.

I asked you to "provide examples of the adjacent countries building civillian settlements outside their own borders, and enforcing a two-tier system in those areas."

Example of two tier system imposed on pain of death with many, many actual executions of innocent people carried out by fellow countrymen and co - religionists : Palestine

anymore

[

QUOTE=wes;65545782]I was using a general term, as I didn't want to go into great detail in that instance.

I am very well aware that you dont want to go into detail about these killings; you never do. Dismiss them as thiongs done by " Not nice people"
If only you could take the same attitude to israel, then we coulstart making progress of ME matters.
Its called being biased.
.

Irlandese

I have to protest this tit for tat .
hamas have killed Fatah and vice versa.
But does raking over the nuance of every death bring us a millimetre closer to finding a just solution to conflict, any conflict? No way, friend.
Sure, it is much less sexy to start the complicated and tedious and above all, thankless work of reconciliation. It is always more comfortable and usually counter-productive, to ensconce oneself in the warm embrace of anger, revenge and pats on the back from fellow travellers.
Will people stop this and start working towards solutions, FFS ?

FlutterinBantam

anymore wrote: »

[

I am very well aware that you dont want to go into detail about these killings; you never do. Dismiss them as thiongs done by " Not nice people"
If only you could take the same attitude to israel, then we coulstart making progress of ME matters.
Its called being biased.
.

No chance of that I'm afraid.:cool:

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

Well by that token if the Palestinians and 100 million arabs hadnt tried to eliminate israel on so many occasions, then this situation would never have arisen, would it. I mean we can go on trading comments like this all year !
So whicxh is the greater evil ?.

1948 - Arab states tried to destroy the newly established state of Israel
1956 - Israel along with Britain and France invade Egypt
1967 - Israel attacks Egypt kicking off the Six-Day War
1973 - Egypt and Syria invade areas conquered by Israel in 1967 in order to take back these lands. Israel's border was not breached.

anymore wrote: »

P.S some of this 'stolen' land was actaully legimately purchased - is this relevant, do you think.

Private land ownership doesn't mean state land.

Also, Jewish ownership of land in Mandate Palestine 1946:

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Take a look (.....)seen.

You stated

I suspect that Israeli 'colonisation' is one factor in inhibiting Hamas from escalating its campaign of murder agaisnt it's Palestinian opponents or from setting up its 'Taliban Style' state.

Hamas is in power in Gaza, not in the West Bank. Israel is mainly colonising the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. The colonisation has been going on since 1967, Hamas was founded in 1987.

Anymore wrote:

Example of two tier system imposed on pain of death with many, many actual executions of innocent people carried out by fellow countrymen and co - religionists : Palestine

No, there is no two tier system in "Palestine" or, as they are referred to, the occupied territories, save that imposed by Israel. There is civil conflict, but no two tier system. Why don't you stop being faceitious and answer the question - Provide examples of the adjacent countries building civillian settlements outside their own borders, and enforcing a two-tier system in those areas.

anymore

The Saint wrote: »

1948 - Arab states tried to destroy the newly established state of Israel
1956 - Israel along with Britain and France invade Egypt
1967 - Israel attacks Egypt kicking off the Six-Day War
1973 - Egypt and Syria invade areas conquered by Israel in 1967 in order to take back these lands. Israel's border was not breached.


Private land ownership doesn't mean state land.

Also, Jewish ownership of land in Mandate Palestine 1946:

A stranger might think that Israel just got it into its head to launch the six day war on a totally unsuspecting and passive Egypt; a tiny, tiny bit more complicated than that dont you think ?

P.S when you show a map of 'Mandate Palestine', doest that mean Palestine wasnt actually an independent State ?
If that is so, when was Palestine an independent state, ?

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

You stated



Hamas is in power in Gaza, not in the West Bank. Israel is mainly colonising the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. The colonisation has been going on since 1967, Hamas was founded in 1987.



No, there is no two tier system in "Palestine" or, as they are referred to, the occupied territories, save that imposed by Israel. There is civil conflict, but no two tier system. Why don't you stop being faceitious and answer the question - Provide examples of the adjacent countries building civillian settlements outside their own borders, and enforcing a two-tier system in those areas.

Palestine is the perfect example of an apartheid state ! It means death to transgress the artifically constructed borders - the videos of executions are freely available on the internet. Now in one sector, a further refinement is being implemented, as palestinian hairdressers have found out. The toxic element of fundamentalist religous tyranny is being added to the toxic mix.

Lets be real, the settlements can be emptied and destrpyed. Hamas's dead victims can never be brought back to life. Do you care ?

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

You stated



Hamas is in power in Gaza, not in the West Bank. Israel is mainly colonising the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. The colonisation has been going on since 1967, Hamas was founded in 1987.



No, there is no two tier system in "Palestine" or, as they are referred to, the occupied territories, save that imposed by Israel. There is civil conflict, but no two tier system. Why don't you stop being faceitious and answer the question - Provide examples of the adjacent countries building civillian settlements outside their own borders, and enforcing a two-tier system in those areas.

Palestine is the perfect example of an apartheid state ! It means death to transgress the artifically constructed borders - the videos of executions are freely available on the internet. Now in one sector, a further refinement is being implemented, as palestinian hairdressers have found out. The toxic element of fundamentalist religous tyranny is being added to the toxic mix.

Lets be real, the settlements can be emptied and destrpyed. Hamas's dead victims can never be brought back to life. Do you care ?

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

A stranger(.....) independent state, ?

...when were America or Kenya independent states?

anymore wrote: »

Palestine is (.....)! ?

More evasion, and getting rather more indicative of your intention to disrupt as it goes on.

In reaction to your statement

This thread is about apartheid, so it is valid and important to look at the apartheid system in adjacent countries.

You were asked to provide "examples of the adjacent countries building civillian settlements outside their own borders, and enforcing a two-tier system in those areas. "

We should compare like with like - What adjacent state has two legal systems (one with rights and privilges, one thats a version of martial law) for two populations living in the same area, outside its borders, that its colonising?

(By the way, when was this Palestinian state created? It's just I've been arguing for one for years and don't seem to have noticed it's announcement.)

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

...when were America or Kenya independent states?



More evasion, and getting rather more indicative of your intention to disrupt as it goes on.

In reaction to your statement


You were asked to provide "examples of the adjacent countries building civillian settlements outside their own borders, and enforcing a two-tier system in those areas. "

We should compare like with like - What adjacent state has two legal systems (one with rights and privilges, one thats a version of martial law) for two populations living in the same area, outside its borders, that its colonising?

(By the way, when was this Palestinian state created? It's just I've been arguing for one for years and don't seem to have noticed it's announcement.)

Palestine is the perfect example of an apartheid state ! It means death to transgress the artifically constructed borders - the videos of executions are freely available on the internet. Now in one sector, a further refinement is being implemented, as palestinian hairdressers have found out. The toxic element of fundamentalist religous tyranny is being added to the toxic mix.

Do you mean to say there never has been an independent Palestinian State ? But I assumed that trying to get the State of Palestine back from Israel was what the fuss was all about ?
Who owned ' Palestine' if there wasnt an independent state before Israel ' annexed' it ?

Irlandese

Nodin wrote: »

...when were America or Kenya independent states?



More evasion, and getting rather more indicative of your intention to disrupt as it goes on.

In reaction to your statement


You were asked to provide "examples of the adjacent countries building civillian settlements outside their own borders, and enforcing a two-tier system in those areas. "

We should compare like with like - What adjacent state has two legal systems (one with rights and privilges, one thats a version of martial law) for two populations living in the same area, outside its borders, that its colonising?

(By the way, when was this Palestinian state created? It's just I've been arguing for one for years and don't seem to have noticed it's announcement.)

that's it people.
You have "won".
I deselect myself from this pointless argy-bargy and leave.
You are too far from any ideas of seeking a sustainable and just solution for all,
far too from the real issues for poor palestinians abused by IDF, PA, Hamas,
USA and fiery ideologues on boards !
Good bye all.

wes

anymore wrote: »

I am very well aware that you dont want to go into detail about these killings; you never do. Dismiss them as thiongs done by " Not nice people"
If only you could take the same attitude to israel, then we coulstart making progress of ME matters.
Its called being biased.
.

Hamas are not nice people, I fail to see how stating this fact is in any way dismissive. I see Israels occupation as the problem, and Hamas as a symptom of that problem, and as such Israel carries the lions share of the blame. If you don't like it then thats not my problem.

Also, I am biased, in that I see the occupied as being largely responsible for the mess, and at least i have the decency to admit as much.

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

A stranger might think that Israel just got it into its head to launch the six day war on a totally unsuspecting and passive Egypt; a tiny, tiny bit more complicated than that dont you think ?

Of course it's more complicated than that. That still doesn't negate the fact that it was Israel who attacked Egypt thereby kicking off the Six-Day War.
I was illustrating that your assertion that "if the Palestinians and 100 million arabs hadnt tried to eliminate israel on so many occasions, then this situation would never have arisen, would it" is demonstrably false.

anymore wrote: »

P.S when you show a map of 'Mandate Palestine', doest that mean Palestine wasnt actually an independent State ?
If that is so, when was Palestine an independent state, ?

I never said that Palestine was a state. I'm not sure what you're getting at here as it is irrelivant to the point I was making. I was again showing that your assertion that "some of this 'stolen' land was actaully legimately purchased - is this relevant, do you think" was minimal and that private ownership of land doesn't make it state land.

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

Palestine is the perfect example of an apartheid state ! It means death to transgress the artifically constructed borders - the videos of executions are freely available on the internet. Now in one sector, a further refinement is being implemented, as palestinian hairdressers have found out. The toxic element of fundamentalist religous tyranny is being added to the toxic mix.

Are you serious? Can you not tell the difference between a civil conflict and apartheid? Is every civil conflict a form of apartheid? Was Ireland under a system of apartheid during it's civil war? Here, let me help clarify it for you:

The crime of apartheid first became part of international law in 1973 when the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (ICSPCA) was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly. It defined it as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group ... over another racial group ... and systematically oppressing them."

In 2002, a different definition of the crime of apartheid was provided by Article 7 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. The crime of apartheid was listed as one of several crimes against humanity, and was defined as including inhumane acts such as torture, murder, forcible transfer, imprisonment, or persecution of an identifiable group on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, or other grounds, "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."

So unless Hamas and Fatah are two different racial groups, you're talking out of your hat.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

(......) mix.

Not an answer. There is no two tier system in place in areas governed by Fatah, or by Hamas, save that run by Israel.

Now again let's have "examples of the adjacent countries building civillian settlements outside their own borders, and enforcing a two-tier system in those areas. "

anymore wrote: »

Do you (.....) annexed' it ?

It's irrelevant. Belgium was only created in 1839, Bangladesh in the 1970's...Israel was rarely independent as an ancient kingdom. There is a people there who identify themselves as Palestinian and who wish to determine their own future - thats good enough for me. Certainly the wish of Israelis to have their own state seems good enough for you.

Brown Bomber

An act of Israeli apartheid, against Jews in Israel, Ethiopian black Jews.
http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100106/FOREIGN/701059823/1002/NEWS

Who are subjected to a racially motivated birth control programme.

anymore

The Saint wrote: »

Are you serious? Can you not tell the difference between a civil conflict and apartheid? Is every civil conflict a form of apartheid? Was Ireland under a system of apartheid during it's civil war? Here, let me help clarify it for you:




So unless Hamas and Fatah are two different racial groups, you're talking out of your hat.

I suggest you pause a while and check out what size hat you are wearing !
As Brown Bomber's post below validates, Isrealis do not form a racial group, so the whole thread is invalid :
.
As Nodin's post makes clear, there are now effectively two separate states in the state formerly known as Palestine, Thanks Nodin !

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

Not an answer. There is no two tier system in place in areas governed by Fatah, or by Hamas, save that run by Israel.

Now again let's have "examples of the adjacent countries building civillian settlements outside their own borders, and enforcing a two-tier system in those areas. "



It's irrelevant. Belgium was only created in 1839, Bangladesh in the 1970's...Israel was rarely independent as an ancient kingdom. There is a people there who identify themselves as Palestinian and who wish to determine their own future - thats good enough for me. Certainly the wish of Israelis to have their own state seems good enough for you.

Israel is a legal State , Palestine has been been fractured into two separate areas " governed " to use your own words, by Hamas and Fatah, with of course Hamas being a client of Iran.
P.S The Muslim Brotherhood, is there a connection or not ?
PPs, I am surprised you validated Israels ancient claims , why ?

wes

anymore wrote: »

As Brown Bomber's post below validates, Isrealis do not form a racial group, so the whole thread is invalid :

Well, as I pointed out earlier, in Israeli law, Jews constitute a race. Now seeing as we are calling Israel an Apartheid state, then the fact Israel considers Jews to be a race, kind of makes your statement null and void. The Israeli state considers Jews to be a race, and on that basis treats Palestinians accordingly.

Also, in Apartheid South Africa, they had a hierarchy of White racial "purity", and White people considered less White, were discriminated against, and as such the treatment of Ethiopian Jews is not out of the ordinary of in an Apartheid state.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Israel is a(.....)ancient claims , why ?

You were to give "examples of the adjacent countries building civillian settlements outside their own borders, and enforcing a two-tier system in those areas. " ......?

Your question re Hamas was already raised and answered in another thread. The rest of your post seems designed to distract from your lack of an answer to the question I put to you.

anymore

wes wrote: »

Well, as I pointed out earlier, in Israeli law, Jews constitute a race. Now seeing as we are calling Israel an Apartheid state, then the fact Israel considers Jews to be a race, kind of makes your statement null and void. The Israeli state considers Jews to be a race, and on that basis treats Palestinians accordingly.

Also, in Apartheid South Africa, they had a hierarchy of White racial "purity", and White people considered less White, were discriminated against, and as such the treatment of Ethiopian Jews is not out of the ordinary of in an Apartheid state.

Fact Membership of a faith group is not a basis for membership of a racial group. If all jews were part of the same racial group, then the same should apply to say Muslims or Christians.
Fact Israeli jews are of different racial groups. See Bombers post.

I would have thought it would have aided your general position re Israel to emphaises that there are so many of different races and origins.
Have you made a tactical mistake here ?

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

You were to give "examples of the adjacent countries building civillian settlements outside their own borders, and enforcing a two-tier system in those areas. " ......?

Your question re Hamas was already raised and answered in another thread. The rest of your post seems designed to distract from your lack of an answer to the question I put to you.

Would that be saudi arabia and the other gulf states who bring in enormous numbers of migrant workers, house them separately and who grant them few if any legal rigts ?

IrishTonyO

anymore wrote: »

Would that be saudi arabia and the other gulf states who bring in enormous numbers of migrant workers, house them separately and who grant them few if any legal rigts ?

Saudi Arabia build on their own territory and what legal rights are denied to the workers there, some examples please and some reference

wes

anymore wrote: »

Fact Membership of a faith group is not a basis for membership of a racial group. If all jews were part of the same racial group, then the same should apply to say Muslims or Christians.
Fact Israeli jews are of different racial groups. See Bombers post.

Fact Israel considers Jews to be a racial group, and as such can engage in Apartheid.

anymore wrote: »

I would have thought it would have aided your general position re Israel to emphaises that there are so many of different races and origins.

Oh dear, once again Israel considers Jews to be a race. Also, the entire concept of race is basically made nonsense, there is no White race either btw, or a Black race.

Again, the state of Israel considers Jews a race, whether they are a race or not, has no bearing on them being an Apartheid state. The state of Israel runs its apartheid on the basis of Jews being a race.

anymore wrote: »

Have you made a tactical mistake here ?

No, just stating a simple fact on that Israel considers Jews to be a race, and run an Apartheid system on this basis. You are engaged in the exact same obfuscation, you engaged, when you employed the same arguement earlier in the thread. The arguement hasn't really improved since then either.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Would that be saudi arabia and the other gulf states who bring in enormous numbers of migrant workers, house them separately and who grant them few if any legal rigts ?

As pointed out already, Saudi aren't building outside their own borders. You'll also find that foriegners are brought before the same courts as Saudi citizens. There are not two seperate codes of law used.

Try again.

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

As pointed out already, Saudi aren't building outside their own borders. You'll also find that foriegners are brought before the same courts as Saudi citizens. There are not two seperate codes of law used.

Try again.

Hamas is bring Palestinians beofre its own ' courts' and executing them. It has no legal mandate to do this, but it is. It has estblised its own State separate to and in defiance of the PLA.

anymore

wes wrote: »

Fact Israel considers Jews to be a racial group, and as such can engage in Apartheid.



Oh dear, once again Israel considers Jews to be a race. Also, the entire concept of race is basically made nonsense, there is no White race either btw, or a Black race.

Again, the state of Israel considers Jews a race, whether they are a race or not, has no bearing on them being an Apartheid state. The state of Israel runs its apartheid on the basis of Jews being a race.




No, just stating a simple fact on that Israel considers Jews to be a race, and run an Apartheid system on this basis. You are engaged in the exact same obfuscation, you engaged, when you employed the same arguement earlier in the thread. The arguement hasn't really improved since then either.

Is Israel in the process of expelling all Non - Jewish people from Israel, or is it setting up Non Jewish Homelands within Israel ?
Has it forbidden sex between Jewish people and Non - Jewish people ?
Is sex between different races a criminal offence. Does Israel forbid male hairdressers to cut the hair of women ?
P.s what is the Hamas attiude to marraige between jewish people and Muslims ?

wes

So, instead of addressing any points, I made you try and avoid having to address them by asking a series of question. I will answer them, but I expect you to answer my questions in return. Its only fair after all, if you refuse to answer my questions, then I won't bother with yours from here on out.

anymore wrote: »

Is Israel in the process of expelling all Non - Jewish people from Israel, or is it setting up Non Jewish Homelands within Israel ?

Israel is founded on Ethnic cleansing, and a Palestinian was recently expelled form the West Bank (Links earlier in the thread, as well as the new order that allows such expulsions). Israel is in the process of creating a Greater Israel, and is stealing land from Palestinians to achieve this.

anymore wrote: »

Has it forbidden sex between Jewish people and Non - Jewish people ?
Is sex between different races a criminal offence.

'Racist' marriage law upheld by Israel

Israel's vile anti-miscegenation squads

The above 2 examples, show that Israel isn't like a modern democracy, when it comes to interracial relationaships.

At present, sex between different races is not illegal, but Israel does have miscegenation squads, and deplorable and racist marriage law.

anymore wrote: »

Does Israel forbid male hairdressers to cut the hair of women ?

One hell of a non-sequitor and no.

anymore wrote: »

P.s what is the Hamas attiude to marraige between jewish people and Muslims ?

It is allowed under various verisons of Islamic law.

So how about addressing the points, I made in my previous posts, as opposed to your typical attempt at avoiding them, and answering my questions posed in the other thread, seeing as I have answered your questions. If you refuse to answer my questions, then don't expect me to answer yours or address anything you post from here on out, as I will be blocking you.

Btw, Israel is most definetly an Aparthied state. Israel has Jewish only roads, which is something even Apartheid South Africa didn't even try. You have not bothered to address any points, and engage in the same whataboutery, obfuscation, and avoidance, that you employ constantly.