ESB - €11,000 as final bill?!

{^Syntax^}

I have been renting a property since 2005. The ESB meter is inside the house in the garage which is an extension. I recently bought a house and have moved out of the rented property. I called in the meter reading to close the account and I was told by several ESB Customer Service Reps that because the meter reading I called in (23215) was much lower than the one they have (52344) I was owed about €4000 - I had over paid over the years it would seem...

The ESB are now saying that the original meter reading the Estate Agent called in, in 2005, was higher than the one I called in when closing (31120) and that the meter had done a full cycle, over the 99999 and back to 23215 and that I owe them €11,000.

Obvioulsy because the ESB meter was internal, the guy never got to read it. I would've been in work.. I did however, let them in a couple of times to read the meter and I thought this would've allowed them to rectify any innacuracy.

What are my rights here? :mad:

Thank you,

S.

Max Power1

I'd be contacting ESB (maybe networks and not supply) and estab;ishing when the last accurate read was taken, and what it was. If you say you let the reader in there should be an accurate read taken. May be difficult to figure out what the correct coa here is. A lesson to all - dont let your bills be estimated for years!

rubadub

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

The ESB are now saying that the original meter reading the Estate Agent called in, in 2005, was higher than the one I called in when closing (31120) and that the meter had done a full cycle, over the 99999 and back to 23215 and that I owe them €11,000.

Unless you have a cannabis farm with millions of grow lights then €11,000 sounds like a lot of electricity! have you any idea what you do actually use? you could take readings over a week. It would make more sense that the estate agent called in the wrong number, or they took it down wrong.

Paulw

You have the ability to provide ESB with your meter reading at any stage. On each bill there is an option to report in your meter reading.

You should have done this, especially if most of your bills are estimated.

I'm not sure what sort of grounds you would have (if any) to object to their bill now.

{^Syntax^}

I called in a meter reading in 2006 / 2007 - They are saying there's no record of this... I was onto ESB Networks who are saying the last correct meter reading was in 2004.

This can't be correct. I didn't have anything special in that house, just a couple of laptops, TV, Washing machine etc. The usual.

This can't be right. The bill averaged about €120 per month.

Cabaal

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

I called in a meter reading in 2006 / 2007 - They are saying there's no record of this... I was onto ESB Networks who are saying the last correct meter reading was in 2004.

Easy check if they did receive them, check bills from this period to see if they were estimated or meter readings

dudara

You have a start reading and an end reading. The next step is to determine if other readings exist. You mention leaving in meter readings sometimes, so their readings should be on the system. Their readings should corroborate this idea of the meter rolling over.

Pull out the old bills (if you still have them) and see if any of the readings are without letters next to them - this means that they are official readings.

The onus is on the ESB to prove that the meter rolled over. I wouldn't accept their statement that it rolled over without proof. Otherwise you could counter with the argument that the person who called in the meter reading all those years ago made a mistake.

looksee

You are saying that you have been paying €120 a month, and yet you still owe them 11,000? My bill for a family house was around €120 this time because I was using an electric heater during the very cold weather, usually its around €90 (with Bord Gais).

It is not impossible for there to be a misconnection somewhere and for you to be paying for someone else's electricity, could you get an electrician to check it out? Would the estate agent be co-operative?

grizzly

I had funny readings in my place. Found I had two meters. Both placed near each other, but one was for the street lights (no idea way it was setup this way). Check you have the right MPR.

grizzly

looksee wrote: »

You are saying that you have been paying €120 a month, and yet you still owe them 11,000? My bill for a family house was around €120 this time because I was using an electric heater during the very cold weather, usually its around €90 (with Bord Gais).

It is not impossible for there to be a misconnection somewhere and for you to be paying for someone else's electricity, could you get an electrician to check it out? Would the estate agent be co-operative?

Yeah, it's very possible that a previous occupier gave a low reading by mistake or to avoid a large bill. Always a good idea to check readings when you move into a property.

{^Syntax^}

Well I certainly don't plan on paying anything until I have proof that they are accurate and the meter isn't faulty. I have checked most of my bills over the years and they all have E after the number (TARIF: Domestic).

There's a bill in 2007 that has P after the reading?

I mean, I pay on average €120 per month for 5 years, that's €7,200 - I don't see how they can clock up €17,000 for a domestic property....

Paulw

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

Well I certainly don't plan on paying anything until I have proof that they are accurate and the meter isn't faulty. I have checked most of my bills over the years and they all have E after the number (TARIF: Domestic).

From https://www.esb.ie/esbcustomersupply/residential/your_account/understand_your_bill.jsp

Meter readings

This shows the first and last meter reading for your billing period.

If there is an 'E' beside either number, it means the reading has been estimated.
If there is a 'C' beside either number, it means the reading has been taken by a customer.

91011

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

Well I certainly don't plan on paying anything until I have proof that they are accurate and the meter isn't faulty. I have checked most of my bills over the years and they all have E after the number (TARIF: Domestic).

There's a bill in 2007 that has P after the reading?

I mean, I pay on average €120 per month for 5 years, that's €7,200 - I don't see how they can clock up €17,000 for a domestic property....

I have a 4 bed detached. Usual washing, fridges, electric shower, portable heater for heating boost, oven, diswasher, lights. 2 people living in the house.

Average bill over past 3 years is about €200 per 2 month period.

Unless you are using electricity for all heating and have the heating on constantly, it is highly unlikely that you have the usage ESB is claiming.

{^Syntax^}

I have most of my bills filed. I'm looking at the first one I have in my file here, dated shortly after I moved into the house in 2005. There are two readings... A Present Reading which has an E at the end of it and a Previous Peading which has a C at the end of it.

It looks like the Estate Agent called in the meter reading and the first bill was estimated :eek:

The reading with C at the end of it is 31290C and I called in 23215 when closing.... Does this mean they are actually right? F**********!!!

I don't ever remember calling in a meter reading, I'm sure it was the estate agent (they are currently trying to dig out the file).

Paulw

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

It looks like the Estate Agent called in the meter reading and the first bill was estimated :eek:

The reading with C at the end of it is 31290C and I called in 23215 when closing.... Does this mean they are actually right? F**********!!!

I don't ever remember calling in a meter reading, I'm sure it was the estate agent (they are currently trying to dig out the file).

Pure speculation here, but what if the agent read the meter wrong? What if it was 81290 and not 31290???

If all readings after that are estimates, then they are just adding a guess on top of the last confirmed customer reading.

You're in a very difficult position, if you don't have readings in between.

{^Syntax^}

Thanks for the info all.

I can't see any other C meter readings on the bills. The ESB said that last correct meter reading was in 2004 but I wasn't living there then.

I wonder if it was the Estate Agent that called in it in, in December.

Do you think I could have an Electrician look at the meter with the permission of the land lord to make sure it's working okay? It's VERY old looking and wouldn't have been serviced in a long time.

I can't see any other readings on my bills with C at the end of them. The ESB said they'd come up with a long term payment plan if I do have to fork out for this which is a help but I'm now paying a mortgage and other loans! Serves me right for not calling in the reading I guess but it's very excessive!

RangeR

I know I'm being extremely flippant here but if you find that you are liable, it may be cheaper for you to leave the country.


That's an awful amount of money for a domestic house to use over that period. Something has to be wrong. I'd be getting an electrician out to check the box.

{^Syntax^}

If it's over a long term period it might not be too bad.. It's just a real shock considering I've just bought a house on my own. My partner is out of work so I'm trying to do everything myself... Mortgage, bills, food etc.

Now this..

Dublin_Gunner

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

If it's over a long term period it might not be too bad.. It's just a real shock considering I've just bought a house on my own. My partner is out of work so I'm trying to do everything myself... Mortgage, bills, food etc.

Now this..

Just looking over your posts - you don't seem overly concerned about the fact that you may not have used this electricity.

Is there any way that you could have used that much electricity? I would find it hard to believe unless you were running heavy electrical machinery and electric storage heaters off it 24/7 that you could be using that much electricity.

rubadub

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

The reading with C at the end of it is 31290C and I called in 23215 when closing.... Does this mean they are actually right?

I doubt they are telling lies but it has to be a mess up and I am surprised they are not even questioning if you have high usage, -it reminds me of that little britain "computer says no" sketch. Surely they have to investigate as there is obviously something wrong.

Apart from the estate agent they should be able to check the previous tenants usage. I was joking about the cannabis farm but seriously I have read of neighbours tapping into another neighbours supply and effectively syphoning off electricity, or otherwise bypassing the electricity box to grow cannabis. In a few cases this is how they caught them out, in the UK anyway, they are meant to have a main counter on the street and if all the houses meters read less than the main street count they know tampering is going on -or conversely a faulty meter spinning to fast.

If the flat is wired incorrectly by mistake or on purpose your landlord or some other crafty tenant could have minimal bills stealing your electricity.

I think they could investigate if they wanted to, on the flipside this means I could use loads of electricity for years, and let it go over 99999 several times and just pay like it went over once.

gpjordanf1

Cant you get the last meter reading that was done in 2004
then the meter reading done in 2005? and then where you are now, two out of 3 should be right and take it from there?

Thats where I would start because I suspect the estate agents in 2005 gave a wrong reading.

MarkR

Try filling in the energy cost calculator on the esb site, and compare it to a weeks usage where you check the readings start to finish.

It will give you an idea at least to how much you are using per week, and what you may have used over the years.

{^Syntax^}

Just spoke to my solicitor.. He's going to contact them.

Guy:Incognito

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

Thanks for the info all.

I can't see any other C meter readings on the bills. The ESB said that last correct meter reading was in 2004 but I wasn't living there then.!

Can they tell you what that reading was from 2004? If it was up near 81290 then it points to the estate agent reading your initial one wrong as PaulW says. If is down under 31290 then it's looking like the ESB are right.

jimoc

According to
http://www.esb.ie/esbcustomersupply/residential/your_account/our_reading_policy.jsp

ESB should be reading your meter at least 4 times a year.
Did they give you an explanation as to why they have not read your meter in over 5 years?

jor el

jimoc wrote: »

Did they give you an explanation as to why they have not read your meter in over 5 years?

The meter is in the garage, so the occupant has a responsibility to let them in or submit accurate readings.

the_syco

jor el wrote: »

The meter is in the garage, so the occupant has a responsibility to let them in or submit accurate readings.

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

Obvioulsy because the ESB meter was internal, the guy never got to read it. I would've been in work.. I did however, let them in a couple of times to read the meter and I thought this would've allowed them to rectify any innacuracy.

Seems he did leave them in a few times, but they (meter readers) didn't keep a record of the visit, it seems :S

jhegarty

Any chance there is a wrong account number associated with the meter ?

EKRIUQ

In a slightly related topic, a tenant in a friend's house moved out 2 weeks ago and my friend was sorting out the ESB bill. The bill had been estimated for the last 24 months and the ESB had estimated the bill to be €7 for a 2 month period (not too sure why it was this amount maybe because the house had been vacant for a long time before) which the tenant never paid and had arrears of €63.

Luckily they had a forwarding address for the tenant who won't be too happy getting the balance of the bill.

{^Syntax^}

If only they were hitting me with a bill for €63. There's a bit of a difference between that and €11,000. :mad:

There was definitely a meter reading taken in 2006 / 2007 as I was sharing with friends. The annoying thing about this is that it was shared accomodation but the bill was in my name as I was the first there.

Grumpypants

I wonder if the estate agent gave the full number ie included the red number at the end as well ? I dont think you are meant to include that one (that may be a gas meter)
And are the bills you recieved for every month or every 2 months ?

If the 31,120 the estate agent rang in was actually 3,120. Then the ESB have been working off the wrong number as a starting point.

That would mean you used around 20,000 units of esb over the 4 years (23215-3112)
Unit ESB cost would be about 16 cent : 20,000 units @ .16 = 3200euro or 800 per year. If your bills are every 2 months then thats about 133ish euro per bill average. Which is around the amount you have paid all along (120). (its out a little but an awfull lot of estimating has gone on here on the part of the ESB).

To round it all up the ESB estimated your usage at around 20,000 for 4 years which you paid for. Its all too convient for the numbers to be about 20,000 out when you look at them. 31,000+20,000 = 51,000 (around the reading the ESB estimate) 3,112+20,000= 23,112(around the reading you Estimate). 20,000 The amount of units you paid for.

How you prove it is a different question? other than taking it further and showing that to use the amount of unit they are suggesting to make the meter go full circle (around 90,000 units) would power a small street for a number of years. Any reasonable person could see that that isnt the case.

jor el

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

There was definitely a meter reading taken in 2006 / 2007 as I was sharing with friends.

Then you need to find out what that reading was, and when it was taken.

foggy_lad

Grumpypants wrote: »

I wonder if the estate agent gave the full number ie included the red number at the end as well ? I dont think you are meant to include that one (that may be a gas meter)
And are the bills you recieved for every month or every 2 months ?

If the 31,120 the estate agent rang in was actually 3,120. Then the ESB have been working off the wrong number as a starting point.

That would mean you used around 20,000 units of esb over the 4 years (23215-3112)
Unit ESB cost would be about 16 cent : 20,000 units @ .16 = 3200euro or 800 per year. If your bills are every 2 months then thats about 133ish euro per bill average. Which is around the amount you have paid all along (120). (its out a little but an awfull lot of estimating has gone on here on the part of the ESB).

To round it all up the ESB estimated your usage at around 20,000 for 4 years which you paid for. Its all too convient for the numbers to be about 20,000 out when you look at them. 31,000+20,000 = 51,000 (around the reading the ESB estimate) 3,112+20,000= 23,112(around the reading you Estimate). 20,000 The amount of units you paid for.

How you prove it is a different question? other than taking it further and showing that to use the amount of unit they are suggesting to make the meter go full circle (around 90,000 units) would power a small street for a number of years. Any reasonable person could see that that isnt the case.

also take into account they are now looking for €11,000 even though the op has been paying roughly €120 every two months and it seems certain the original reading from the estate agent should have been 3,112 and not 31,120

take an average bill of €300 x 6 times a year and over 4 years the charge would be €7,200 now take out the €120 x 6 x 4 the op has been paying and it is a far cry from the €11,000 the esb are looking for!

{^Syntax^}

There's no red number at the end. There are only spaces for 5 digits. The bills I received were every two months yes.

I've heard of cases of this happening before with other companies (Mobile carrier sending a bill for €300,000 to one guy using a 3G Modem while roaming who was unaware of the roaming costs). I never thought it'd happen to me.

I think it's dangerous allowing bills to build up to such an extent for individuals. I can understand with companies as they should be meticuloulsy aware of their incomings/outgoings but for an average joe trying to get on with things this is lethal.

The ESB didn't phone me or come to my house. They did say on their bills that they 'needed a meter reading' and that the last number of 'bills have been estimated' but I never imagined it'd total €11,000

keithclancy

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

There's no red number at the end. There are only spaces for 5 digits. The bills I received were every two months yes.

I've heard of cases of this happening before with other companies (Mobile carrier sending a bill for €300,000 to one guy using a 3G Modem while roaming who was unaware of the roaming costs). I never thought it'd happen to me.

I think it's dangerous allowing bills to build up to such an extent for individuals. I can understand with companies as they should be meticuloulsy aware of their incomings/outgoings but for an average joe trying to get on with things this is lethal.

The ESB didn't phone me or come to my house. They did say on their bills that they 'needed a meter reading' and that the last number of 'bills have been estimated' but I never imagined it'd total €11,000

Not just an Irish thing, i moved from the West to the East of holland and got a bill for 1720 euros .. ffs ..

Was caused by a mixup with the meters so the energy company were undercharging, i.e. the meters were labeled the wrong way around.

{^Syntax^}

It would certainly make a lot more sense that the meter reading was 3120. It has to be a mistake on the Estate Agents part... I'm still waitng on them to dig out the file.

ttm

Isn't there any history that ESB have of this meter being read previous to the Estate Agents phoning in the bill? If there was that might throw some doubt on the start reading, but arn't ESB going to have a problem proving you used that amount of electric if they don't have records of a single meter reading done by a meter reader, so far all they have is one recent reading and hearsay?

{^Syntax^}

No, they are claiming they have the original meter reading taken by the Estate Agent. It's 31290C (Sorry the original reading I posted earlier was just for purposes of this conversation and not giving personal information on forums!)

So perhaps it was 03129 when the Estate Agent called it in!?

I'm looking at what I believe to be my first bill here, from 2005, with the billing period being from Jan 25th to Mar 16th 2005.

For the meter reading it says something like (I can't quite see it as I've perferated the bill) Present: 32323E Previous: 31290C

C indicating it was a 'Client' reading.

RangeR

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

No, they are claiming they have the original meter reading taken by the Estate Agent. It's 31290C (Sorry the original reading I posted earlier was just for purposes of this conversation and not giving personal information on forums!)

So perhaps it was 03129 when the Estate Agent called it in!?

I'm looking at what I believe to be my first bill here, from 2005, with the billing period being from Jan 25th to Mar 16th 2005.

For the meter reading it says something like (I can't quite see it as I've perferated the bill) Present: 32323E Previous: 31290C

C indicating it was a 'Client' reading.

So can they confirm what the PREVIOUS one to the estate agents one was? It would give an indication as to the estate agent giving the wrong details.

bigjohnny80

Defo contest this... I got a bill of 2500 one month after they read the meter themselves. Turned out that it was feeding into the wrong apartment.

At the back of the bill is the steps you need to take. I think firstly you escalate it to an internal dept, then next port of call is the regulator.

ttm

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

No, they are claiming they have the original meter reading taken by the Estate Agent. It's 31290C (Sorry the original reading I posted earlier was just for purposes of this conversation and not giving personal information on forums!)

So perhaps it was 03129 when the Estate Agent called it in!?

I'm looking at what I believe to be my first bill here, from 2005, with the billing period being from Jan 25th to Mar 16th 2005.

For the meter reading it says something like (I can't quite see it as I've perferated the bill) Present: 32323E Previous: 31290C

C indicating it was a 'Client' reading.

But that is my point ESB don't have a start figure that is set in stone that can be used to prove your usage. A customer reading is just that a customer reading, how can ESB prove that it was correct unless the meter reader takes a reading sometime afterwards which provides a bill that is of the correct order for the size of the property and expected usage. Once they have their own reading it in effect validates the customer reading but I can't see that that has ever been done.

All ESB have is Customer readings and Estimates since you have been there so I would say to them that as they have no positive proof of your usage that its up to them to negotiate how much you should pay. Its easy enough to estimate your usage given the number of rooms you have how the house was heated and the equipment you used and thats the figure you should be aiming at not 11k.

If you feel the 11k is correct then you need to find out who was using it and why it was being added to your bill.

The property might still be empty if so ask if you can have the electric switched off for a few days just to see if anyone complains.

Not sure I'm making myself clear

ttm

RangeR wrote: »

So can they confirm what the PREVIOUS one to the estate agents one was? It would give an indication as to the estate agent giving the wrong details.

EXACTY! Somewhere along the line ESB need to provide a PREVIOUS reading that is NOT and Estimate or a Customer reading. It doesn't really matter when it was, before or after the Estate Agents reading, but without it there can be no validation of the Estate Agents Customer reading. The nearer an Actual reading is to the Estate Agents the better but even a year before would give some idea if the Estate Agents reading is valid or a mistake.

{^Syntax^}

Some good advice. Thanks!

I believe I shouldn't have to pay anything near that figure to be honest. I was never late with a bill over the 5 years. It was a 3 bed house that was oil heated. If there's a reasonable closing bill similar to the €120 - €160 I had been paying every two months then that'd be fair enough but €11,000 is ridiculous.

antoinolachtnai

did you phone in the reading you think you made a few years ago to the ESB? Any idea what phone you made the call on?

If you did, uou may be able to retrieve something that would prove you made that call. The telephone company should have information going back three years. They will not volunteer it easily, but they should have it.

If you can show that you made a call to give a meter reading, it will give you some sort of basis to work on. My suspicion would be that the reading you phoned in appeared to be so out of whack with the last reading they had, that the ESB simply disregarded it.

It would be interesting to find out the history of the reported meter readings for the previous tenant. It does sound a bit like somebody somewhere got away without paying the full whack.

ttm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

did you phone in the reading you think you made a few years ago to the ESB? Any idea what phone you made the call on?

If you did, uou may be able to retrieve something that would prove you made that call. The telephone company should have information going back three years. They will not volunteer it easily, but they should have it.

If you can show that you made a call to give a meter reading, it will give you some sort of basis to work on. My suspicion would be that the reading you phoned in appeared to be so out of whack with the last reading they had, that the ESB simply disregarded it.

It would be interesting to find out the history of the reported meter readings for the previous tenant. It does sound a bit like somebody somewhere got away without paying the full whack.

Not sure what system ESB used back then but we have been phoning in Customer readings for years and they regularly get ignored and need calling in a second time. For what its worth we've been told that the ESB only have to read the meter twice a year which is what they seem to do in our rural area. But if they miss us which would be very rare they do leave a card saying they called so I wonder if the OP ever got a card saying the ESB Meter Reader had called?

Biffo The Bare

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

If it's over a long term period it might not be too bad.. It's just a real shock considering I've just bought a house on my own. My partner is out of work so I'm trying to do everything myself... Mortgage, bills, food etc.

Now this..

One suggestion. Don't take this the wrong way, but get your s**t in order and things like this aint going to happen.

kodak

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

Some good advice. Thanks!

I believe I shouldn't have to pay anything near that figure to be honest. I was never late with a bill over the 5 years. It was a 3 bed house that was oil heated. If there's a reasonable closing bill similar to the €120 - €160 I had been paying every two months then that'd be fair enough but €11,000 is ridiculous.

The first thing you should do is get them to send out a print of all the meter readings.
This will show every estimated and consumer and esb registered meter reading. Ask for the full five years. They will post it out to you.

I did this as a friend had a night meter, but the timer broke and was stuck on 4pm, so the high rate was all the time.. in the end they got a huge credit, too much by my clac's..

I'll try dig out a direct number that i got that you could ring..

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

This thing will just go all around the houses here, to no conclusion. Contact ESB. Get the readings and discuss it with them. They are the ones who can sort this - not anybody here. Thye are actually very good at dealing with stuff like this;)

Grumpypants

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

One suggestion. Don't take this the wrong way, but get your s**t in order and things like this aint going to happen.

One suggestion. Don't take this the wrong way, but at least read the thread before you make suggestions like that. The OP has clearly had his **** together as he got and paid his ESB bill on time for 5 years this problem only arose when he closed the account and then found out a meter reading that was given by a estate agent 5 years ago which he has no control or knowledge of was incorrect.

{^Syntax^}

Thanks Grumpy pants. I know I should've been calling in meter readings but I was actually working 2 jobs at the time trying to save enough for college and eventually a deposit for my own home.

It's hard to manage everything and have it all under control.

I don't believe I ever phoned in a reading.. I'm sure it was the Estate Agent. I would've had a 'pay as you go phone' at the time and no land line as I'd just moved in. Very tricky to trace that type of stuff.

The Estate Agent are trying to dig out the file but apparently it's in the 'Directors' house who's on holiday.

Just to let you know the ESB are being very helpful in trying to resolve this. I just think it'd should've been investigated more thoroughly before the bill was sent.

I've never felt the blood drain out of my body so fast!

Cabaal

{^Syntax^} wrote: »

Just to let you know the ESB are being very helpful in trying to resolve this. I just think it'd should've been investigated more thoroughly before the bill was sent.

The dispatch out the bill is pretty much automated so they wouldn't have investigated anything before hand