Irishmen who fought for the British Empire in WW1 fought for 'European freedom'

Exile 1798

CDfm wrote: »

It does as does Bloody Sunday.

You equate the massacring of civilians by the British Army with the IRA killing a civilian who had killed an IRA Volunteer.

I think I know understand where it is you're coming from.

For the record I think the IRA's execution of the killer of one of their Volunteers was completely justified, as was their attempt to commandeer that mans car.

walrusgumble

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

CDfm wrote: »

But the killings were condemned by the Leaders of both the Pro and Anti Treaty sides which would indicate to me that there was less to it other than what I am saying.



It does as does Bloody Sunday.If I accept one is justified I have to accept the other.



The IRA had de facto control of West Cork. I am not condoning what happened in the North and the attacks on Catholic workers.

I have no problem say it was wrong even though my Grandfather was part of the West Cork Brigade. I know that many of his colleagues disagreed with it.

Look I have no interest or intent to say what you are saying it completely nonsense. I can't. Simple as that. The fact that the killings, whilst some just might be justified, they occured after the Truce was announced. There is more to this that meets the eye.

It must be said, were the leaders of anti and pro treaty really just sopping to the Protestant community? Did they really mean it? What right did they have to comment on a region which, lets be fair, and like others, the GHQ were unable or simply unwilling to assit when the war was on.

But look, to say that there was some kind of Protestant Masacre, I can't without qualification, accept this. There was, as it would be expected, more Catholics, all around the country, who were spot for accusations for being spies. Others were deported for other "offences".

There was probably no doubt that it was a case of settling scores. Look what happened to Noel Lemass (Sean's brother), Noel is it alledged in myth or hearsay was involved in the intelligence team behind the possibility of killing Collins ( the view was there, i think, a case of opportunity knocks there)

Anyway, maybe we should get back to the topic on hand, which has nothing to do with what we have been talking about. The 100 year anniversary is coming up. I for one, believe that we should at least not hind behind the couch and forget about people who gave their lives for a principle (no no not ze Germans or Nazis lol, whether or not they were naive, or just out for adventure/employment.

walrusgumble

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

I pointed out before in an earlier post circa 75ish, but check this link from BBC, in particular a photo in Longford during the 1917 election of Sinn Fein Joe McGuinness and in particular supporters of the Irish Parliamentary Party. What flag is that?

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/easterrising/images/ga/gal03.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/easterrising/gallery/gallery03.shtml&usg=__L3vyNz22GHIGVafLECjsNGx3jvs=&h=380&w=230&sz=32&hl=en&start=5&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=pzVUCzOOQC-BnM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=74&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dworld%2Bwar%2B1%2Bpropaganda%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4RNWN_enIE300IE313%26tbs%3Disch:1

CDfm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

walrusgumble wrote: »

I pointed out before in an earlier post circa 75ish, but check this link from BBC, in particular a photo in Longford during the 1917 election of Sinn Fein Joe McGuinness and in particular supporters of the Irish Parliamentary Party. What flag is that?

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/easterrising/images/ga/gal03.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/easterrising/gallery/gallery03.shtml&usg=__L3vyNz22GHIGVafLECjsNGx3jvs=&h=380&w=230&sz=32&hl=en&start=5&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=pzVUCzOOQC-BnM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=74&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dworld%2Bwar%2B1%2Bpropaganda%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4RNWN_enIE300IE313%26tbs%3Disch:1

nice one - though the margin was small 27 votes - which shows that the Irish Parlimentary Party had a lot of support too.

CDfm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

walrusgumble wrote: »

. The fact that the killings, whilst some just might be justified, they occured after the Truce was announced. There is more to this that meets the eye.

Why should there be more to it than meets the eye. It doesnt look like there was any more to it than what happened.I heard that there wasn't.

The thread related to people fighting in WWI for freedom.

So you can see a section of society that werent included in the vision of democracy.

walrusgumble

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

CDfm wrote: »

nice one - though the margin was small 27 votes - which shows that the Irish Parlimentary Party had a lot of support too.

yeah, there was a HUGE risk of running McGuinness (who did not want to run) I think the previous MP was fairly popular (only down the road from the famous John Dillion MP) IPP in the midlands were HUGE, sure TP O'Connor was from Athlone ( I think he ran in Liverpool, definitely not in Athlone anyway, I think)It was never expected that McGuinness would run away with it. Lets just say, the local Sinn Feinners were persuasive.;) Even Dev, for a few minutes worried about how he would do in Ennis, until he went there of course

But its to give you an indication, not a complete one mind, that many in IPP or WW1 veterans were keen on keeping some link with Britian.

walrusgumble

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

CDfm wrote: »

Why should there be more to it than meets the eye. It doesnt look like there was any more to it than what happened.I heard that there wasn't.

The thread related to people fighting in WWI for freedom.

So you can see a section of society that werent included in the vision of democracy.

sorry i am referring to the killings in places like Dunmanaway possibly being more than the victims being spies, thus agreeing with you on the possibilities. (i beg of you not to take that as some pooface arrogant opinion that the Old IRA could do no wrong, its not intended)

Though I must, say, it seems (I won't assume btw) that the leaders in that region seem to believe / have evidence of the victims association with British forces, just because, (and I say this with the uptmost respect to you, your grandfather, your family and everyone involved), your grandfather and others say one thing, it does not neccessarily mean they knew everything about these victims. Its not like intelligence officers told very single member everything, is it? Is it possible that views and opinions of the people changed in light of future events in say the north? or was it always the unspoken attitude (naturally) that these deaths were

Can I ask, what was the actual opinion there and then when it happended around the county. We can't rely on Tom Barry's account in his books completely because naturally, when he wrote them his stance would have been accepted without question and secondly, even though he was not there, he would naturally defend those men who did the killings (particularily when many we dead by the 1950's)


"The thread related to people fighting in WWI for freedom", It was you that brought Dunmanway and the like up, or at least pressed on it (admitingly encouraged by me and others) And it was you who compared it to Bloody Sunday, which I would not rubbish straight away, I am happy to discuss this in a civilised and respectful manner elsewhere)

The third as you know, is "Irishmen who fought for the British Empire in WW1 fought for European Freedom".

Well, it is absolutely clear that for many Irish men, they fought for Europe and for people like Beligum. It is also clear that Irish men fought for Britian and King as they were doing their patrotic duty as Britain made out that the events in Centra Europe effected British freedom :rolleyes: It is also clear that John Redmond encourage Irish people to fight in order to get brownie points from Britian to make sure that they got Home Rule, which had already being granted in law.

Some people object that WW1 was in fact a fight for "European Freedom", freedom for who? Britian? Weren't they interested in their own Empire (as with others) and in maintainin the status quo? Were the Irish that bothered about what went on in the rest of Europe? The rest of Europe were not too bothered with what went on in Ireland for the past 100-50 years prior. THe British in their posters in England spoke of "For King and Country" Thats hardly for "European Freedom" is it?

How many volunteers came home in 1918-1919 and fought for Irish freedom (that is I accepted a pointless question as we don't know, but do know that many of the local leaders saw action in Europe)

No one had excluded the particular section that you were referring to. THe 1916 proclamation never distinguished ones religion. The Dail Declaration of Independence did neither. Where were the Protestants who actually assisted in the Republican movement complaining about their rights to religion and other matters? Where were the Protestant Irish men and women when they were needed the most? Had they particapated on a more wider degree, their voices could not and would not be ignored. (though, the socialist were, so you probably will have a good point here) Many Unionists, who were, and you can correct me here, were Protestant (I am aware Catholics were too!) You can't deny that many Unionists in your own county were extremely hostile towards Republicans and Dail Eireann. They sent up their own branches and were in association with the British, again you can't deny this. They ignored the people's wishes who went out in 1918 and 1920 to vote for Sinn Fein who told the people what they wanted to achieve? Some of these Unionists did severe damage to the IRA, as the local supporters of the IRA did severe damge to the British forces (eg boycotting, intelligence, evidence) the actions of the Unionists led to people's home being burnt down, arrests, torture of prisoners and deaths. How can you say these people upheld democracy? Naturally the Unionists, who were an obstacle in the way of a majority who at least did not obstruct the Republican movement, became the enemy

THe government made it clear: what kind of government and country was to be determined AFTER independence was won. (sadly the wrong way round, but the WW1 was a opportuntistic time to strike at Britian) Civil War got in the way and destroyed this country for 60 years (possibly much to the relief and I told you so attitude of Irish Unionists and the British)

Ernest Blthe, Robert Barton and few others did not seem to be effected by their religion.

CDfm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

I don't have any real answers but my instinct is that the UCC historians have made a wrong call on this. Its like the North Kerry killings where 9 men were killed around a tree stump when a landmine was thrown in.

I only brought up Dunmanway as it was something I knew about and it was and is a fairly integrated community-so it would have been an unlikely place for it to happen. I just dont think there is a smoking gun.Nobody knows nothin

On Tom Barrys book, its been years since I read it but a book like that would be light on detail. I wouldnt give much weight to discepencies between books and newspaper articles of the period.

You also had angry young guys like Frank O'Connor/Michael O'Donovan active in area and who would have had extreme political ideas.

Ten years later you had guys who went on a Spanish Crusade.So you had lots of extremists and idealists floating around.

So small groups who get influenced by strong personalities and events can commit extreme acts.

I would be delighted to contribute to a tread on attitudes and stuff .

Billiejo

Korea & Vietnam are not in Europe.

http://www.illyria.com/irishkor.html

http://www.illyria.com/vn_irish_names.html

mrjoneill

You also had angry young guys like Frank O'Connor/Michael O'Donovan active in area and who would have had extreme political ideas.

---

To subscribe the tag of extremist to Frank O'Connor/Michael O'Donovan or for that matter his mentor Daniel Corkery demonstrates how out of touch this assumption is with the reality. I’m convinced neither swatted a fly ever. These were hoping for a republican Celtic utopia and not more of the same which the Free State promised with their pens rather than swords. And in WWII O’Donovan worked for the British government in its propaganda information which no diehard Irish republican would touch with a barge pole a mile long.


Eoghan Harris the pseudo historian and politician among other things has taken it upon himself in another reincarnation the deviousness of Irish republicanism and a godsend for this is Peter Hart's book, “The IRA and its Enemies”. This is to justify this reincarnation and to destroy his childhood hero Tom Barry as nothing more than a common killer. Hart’s main contention is "the worst wave of killings came in April (1922) in West Cork after the death of an IRA officer near Bandon. He sates Fourteen Protestant men were shot in revenge and dozens of others were threatened."
Meda Ryan a West Cork native and whose uncle fought at Kimichael researched the April 1922 killings and she re-produced evidence left behind by departing Auxiliaries showing most of the April 1922 victims as working with British forces. She pointed out that, after the war, IRA leaders like Barry called for no victimization of loyalists who fought with the British, as “the war was over”. In fact Barry rushed from the Treaty debates in the Dail to give protection to vulnerable protestant families with the remnants of the West Cork Brigade of Kilmichael after reports of pogroms reached him in Dublin.

In 1994 Church of Ireland clergyman, JBL Deane, wrote in The Irish Times, “many local Protestants in the constituency voted for [Buckley], not because they supported the policy of Fianna Fáil, but as a mark of gratitude and respect for what he had done in 1922.’’ I hesitated before taking part in this correspondence, as I could not see what beneficial purpose was served by regurgitating these unhappy events when the community affected by them had long since drawn a line under them and is living in harmony with its neighbours. However, silence might have been interpreted as agreement with some statements which were historically incorrect or incomplete.’ Hart, Harris and the other pseudo consciousness of nationalism such as Myers should take note.
There is still a sizeable Protestant population in the Bandon area, mainly Church of Ireland and Methodist, and many from the farming community.


For disenfranchising in the Irish Free State and Republic there were none more so than the ordinary people almost exclusively RC in a church-state hegemony in which the populace accepted their church teachings that their subsistence existence as one of suffering in preparation for the utopia in the after life. It was in this milieu that this existence was accepted. As for the sectarian nature of Irish republicanism I would like to remind that the Prov IRA during the Troubles had a protestant in its ruling body its Army Council and many commanders of that religion. What the 1922 period in Cork demonstrates is that a rump minority fought against the revolution and the reprisal killings were local grievances including espionage and anyone that knows anything of Irish life knows the standing of the “informer”. Where the fault lies in all this is with this diehards largely protestant community along with their British masters who were unwilling to recognize the democratic wish of Ireland. Even in his twilight years the Dublin born father of Unionism Edward Carson lamented over the fact that a peasant population subverted his “superior” class and he never forgave his British political peers also of their acceptance of this.

Hugo Drax

mrjoneill wrote: »

You also had angry young guys like Frank O'Connor/Michael O'Donovan active in area and who would have had extreme political ideas.

---

To subscribe the tag of extremist to Frank O'Connor/Michael O'Donovan or for that matter his mentor Daniel Corkery demonstrates how out of touch this assumption is with the reality. I’m convinced neither swatted a fly ever. These were hoping for a republican Celtic utopia and not more of the same which the Free State promised with their pens rather than swords. And in WWII O’Donovan worked for the British government in its propaganda information which no diehard Irish republican would touch with a barge pole a mile long.


Eoghan Harris the pseudo historian and politician among other things has taken it upon himself in another reincarnation the deviousness of Irish republicanism and a godsend for this is Peter Hart's book, “The IRA and its Enemies”. This is to justify this reincarnation and to destroy his childhood hero Tom Barry as nothing more than a common killer. Hart’s main contention is "the worst wave of killings came in April (1922) in West Cork after the death of an IRA officer near Bandon. He sates Fourteen Protestant men were shot in revenge and dozens of others were threatened."
Meda Ryan a West Cork native and whose uncle fought at Kimichael researched the April 1922 killings and she re-produced evidence left behind by departing Auxiliaries showing most of the April 1922 victims as working with British forces. She pointed out that, after the war, IRA leaders like Barry called for no victimization of loyalists who fought with the British, as “the war was over”. In fact Barry rushed from the Treaty debates in the Dail to give protection to vulnerable protestant families with the remnants of the West Cork Brigade of Kilmichael after reports of pogroms reached him in Dublin.

In 1994 Church of Ireland clergyman, JBL Deane, wrote in The Irish Times, “many local Protestants in the constituency voted for [Buckley], not because they supported the policy of Fianna Fáil, but as a mark of gratitude and respect for what he had done in 1922.’’ I hesitated before taking part in this correspondence, as I could not see what beneficial purpose was served by regurgitating these unhappy events when the community affected by them had long since drawn a line under them and is living in harmony with its neighbours. However, silence might have been interpreted as agreement with some statements which were historically incorrect or incomplete.’ Hart, Harris and the other pseudo consciousness of nationalism such as Myers should take note.
There is still a sizeable Protestant population in the Bandon area, mainly Church of Ireland and Methodist, and many from the farming community.


For disenfranchising in the Irish Free State and Republic there were none more so than the ordinary people almost exclusively RC in a church-state hegemony in which the populace accepted their church teachings that their subsistence existence as one of suffering in preparation for the utopia in the after life. It was in this milieu that this existence was accepted. As for the sectarian nature of Irish republicanism I would like to remind that the Prov IRA during the Troubles had a protestant in its ruling body its Army Council and many commanders of that religion. What the 1922 period in Cork demonstrates is that a rump minority fought against the revolution and the reprisal killings were local grievances including espionage and anyone that knows anything of Irish life knows the standing of the “informer”. Where the fault lies in all this is with this diehards largely protestant community along with their British masters who were unwilling to recognize the democratic wish of Ireland. Even in his twilight years the Dublin born father of Unionism Edward Carson lamented over the fact that a peasant population subverted his “superior” class and he never forgave his British political peers also of their acceptance of this.

Carson was famously labelled "a man without a country, a man without a caste" by a political opponent....he wanted to keep all Ireland within the Union, when the majority of the island left, he was left without a country.

Fuinseog

no one fought for freedom. they fought for the glory of their own nations. this freedom of small nations business is akin to the weapons of mass destruction slogan of the second Iraq war.

Hugo Drax

Fuinseog wrote: »

no one fought for freedom. they fought for the glory of their own nations. this freedom of small nations business is akin to the weapons of mass destruction slogan of the second Iraq war.

They fought because they believed people like Redmond who told them it was the right thing to do.

A more innocent age when people actually trusted their elected represented.

Events proved they were very wrong to trust people like Redmond....

Fuinseog

Hugo Drax wrote: »

They fought because they believed people like Redmond who told them it was the right thing to do.

A more innocent age when people actually trusted their elected represented.

Events proved they were very wrong to trust people like Redmond....

they fought because they believed people like George Bush and Tony Blair who told them IRaq was dangerous. have times really changed?

mrjoneill

And I believe a large part of Redmond’s motivation was self serving, that of him becoming a imperial princes in the imperial set of that time. There can be no doubt that he was in the imperial mindset of the middle class of that time. Yes indeed naïve times when one thinks of dying for a war not ours to please an imperial master to give us limited freedom, but at least in modern wars we can clearly see them for what they are. I don’t think anyone but the extremely naive would believe that the Iraq war was anything but imperial and the WMD had commonality with the little Belgium rhetoric of a bygone age. What it does show that many are still willing to fight for imperial gain.

CDfm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

Ok - that may be the case.

I have been asking questions on another thread to gauge the significance of class.

How can we discuss the significance of class.

Rebelheart

So, I surmise that at least some of you have read that article in The Irish Times last Saturday - here.

So many gems, such as this by one Joseph Coyne from Newbridge in Kildare: “Guys [in the Irish Army] are getting bored and fat and lazy." Charming.

The most honest of all comments was by a recruiter for the British Army when he described the sort of people from Ireland who join:

“They also join for leadership, for guidance. The vast majority are missing something in their lives and this is where they are able to find it. A lot come from broken families. Here, they find positive male influences,”

Yeah, clearly we are dealing with Ireland's brightest here.

Anyway, today there was an Irish Army guy on RTÉ's Liveline giving out about the comments on the Irish Army by these British soldiers and he said that the Irish Army would never, ever recruit in prisons and he said this is common and established practice in the British Army.

Is this actually true: the British Army in 2010 recruits in British prisons? If so, you couldn't invent this stuff. The dregs of society indeed.

Morlar

Rebelheart wrote: »

So, I surmise that at least some of you have read that article in The Irish Times last Saturday - here.

So many gems, such as this by one Joseph Coyne from Newbridge in Kildare: “Guys [in the Irish Army] are getting bored and fat and lazy." Charming.

The most honest of all comments was by a recruiter for the British Army when he described the sort of people from Ireland who join:

“They also join for leadership, for guidance. The vast majority are missing something in their lives and this is where they are able to find it. A lot come from broken families. Here, they find positive male influences,”

Yeah, clearly we are dealing with Ireland's brightest here.

Anyway, today there was an Irish Army guy on RTÉ's Liveline giving out about the comments on the Irish Army by these British soldiers and he said that the Irish Army would never, ever recruit in prisons and he said this is common and established practice in the British Army.

Is this actually true: the British Army in 2010 recruits in British prisons? If so, you couldn't invent this stuff. The dregs of society indeed.

Do you mean did the british army recruit from prisons in a historic context ?

Historically there was always talk of how the b&t's were recruited from the prisons and literally the 'dregs of society' (was the terminology used).

In fact I have never seen this borne out by any actual research.

There is a good link here to the composition of the Black and Tans

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume12/issue3/features/?id=113768

Who were the Black-and-tans?

bnt
The first Black-and-Tans being inspected by an RIC officer at Beggars Bush barracks, Dublin, on their arrival on 25 March 1920. The mixture of police and army uniforms that occasioned their name is not yet evident. (George Morrison)
When the republican campaign against the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) and others thought sympathetic to Dublin Castle became more violent and successful in late 1919, the police abandoned hundreds of rural facilities to consolidate shrinking ranks in fewer, fortified stations. The pressure exerted directly on RIC men, their families, friends and those who did business with them resulted in unfilled vacancies from casualties, resignations and retirements.
Lloyd George’s government could not recognise the IRA or Dáil Éireann as belligerents and insisted that counter-insurgency was ‘a policeman’s job supported by the military and not vice versa’, which placed responsibility squarely on the RIC. The role of the RIC as a largely domestic police force with strong community ties had been steadily compromised since 1916 by more aggressive tactics against nationalists and heavier reliance on the military. Faced with the need for more, better-prepared men wearing police uniforms, the government augmented RIC numbers and capabilities by recruiting Great War veterans from throughout the UK. From early 1920 through to the Truce in July 1921, 13,732 new police recruits were added to the nearly 10,000 members of the ‘old’ RIC to maintain a constabulary strength that, at the end, reached about 14,500.
The new recruits stood out in RIC ranks anyway, but an initial shortage of complete bottle-green constabulary uniforms resulted in the temporary issue of military khaki and the name that stuck: the ‘Black-and-Tans’. The Black-and-Tans were sworn as constables to reinforce county stations and their experience with weapons and tactics gave the RIC a tougher edge. The IRA campaign led to another recruitment initiative in July 1920, the Auxiliary Division (ADRIC) or ‘Auxies’, former military officers who wore distinctive Tam o’ Shanter caps and operated in counter-insurgency units independent of other RIC formations.
Even though the Auxiliaries were a separate category of police, they were often combined under the shorthand of ‘Black-and-Tans’. They were never regarded as ordinary Irish constables, by the communities in which they served or by other policemen, and are popularly remembered for brutality and the militarisation of the police. There is substance to the popular characterisation. The Black-and-Tans, and the Auxiliaries especially, were part of the escalation of violence in Ireland in 1920–1, and they are inseparable from reprisals against civilians. Indeed, it is hard to imagine the RIC executing a systematic reprisal policy without them. The Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries helped to destroy residual community support for the RIC. But who were the nearly 14,000 men who joined the RIC ranks as irregulars?

The RIC register

A personnel register was maintained at Headquarters in Dublin Castle. The original manuscript ledgers are preserved in the Public Records Office (PRO), Kew (HO 184), and include all policemen recruited between 1816 and disbandment in 1922, including Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries. RIC record-keeping was meticulous. Complete, consistent information on individual police careers is available at least until 1919.
The records for men recruited to the RIC from early 1920 are not as complete as those kept for the previous century. Enrolments and departures during the Black-and-Tan era occurred at a much higher rate, and other work generated by the War of Independence taxed RIC staff resources. Entries for Black-and-Tan constables are, generally, more complete than those for Auxiliaries. The leanness of information for Auxiliaries suggests that more detailed information was kept elsewhere and/or there was a disinclination to keep accessible records about a counter-terror group. There is one reference to a ‘secret file’. Still, the register contains important information about the men who joined the RIC as both Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries. A twenty per cent sample (every fifth entry) of all those who joined the new RIC beginning in 1920 furnishes a representative population of 2,745 cases—2,302 Black-and-Tans and 443 Auxiliaries.
As the poster shows, a recruitment system was set up throughout the UK. One third (916) of all sampled recruits joined in London. Another 36 per cent (990) were recruited in Liverpool and Glasgow. Nearly fourteen per cent of recruitment transactions occurred in Ireland. Folk memory holds that the British administration was not very concerned about the backgrounds of Black-and-Tan recruits, as long as they had military experience. An RIC constable who staffed the London office recalled that ‘a canard has been put about that we recruited criminals deliberately . . . We had a police report on every candidate and accepted no man whose army character was assessed at less than “good”’. Douglas Duff, a Black-and-Tan who wrote a memoir, recalled that ‘it had not been hard’ to join the RIC and that he was sent to Dublin the same day he was sworn in.
The Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries were overwhelmingly British (78.6 per cent of the sample). Almost two thirds were English, fourteen per cent were Scottish, and fewer than five per cent came from Wales and outside the UK. An unexpected finding that is at odds with popular memory is that nearly nineteen per cent of the sampled recruits (514) were Irish-born, twenty per cent of Black-and-Tans and about ten per cent of Auxiliaries. Extrapolating from the sample, more than 2,300 of all Black-and-Tans and 225 of all Auxiliaries were Irish. Many Irishmen joined the RIC in a role assumed by folk memory to be the exclusive preserve of British mercenaries.
The information in the register cannot tell us why anyone joined the RIC at a time of intensifying violence. Douglas Duff, for example, was a twice- torpedoed former merchant seaman. Thankful to be alive, he spent a short time in a London monastery. He ‘conceived the idea’ of joining the RIC from newspaper accounts of the Irish conflict. ‘That was on Monday morning—the following Friday, at dawn, I was steaming into Dublin Bay, with a rubber stamp mark on my arm that read “Royal Irish Constabulary”.’
But Sebastian Barry, in his novel The whereabouts of Eneas McNulty, convincingly imagines the difficult adjustments for unemployed veterans of the experience in the trenches. Eneas, from Sligo, is another unemployed merchant navy veteran who joins the RIC. He ‘knows why there are places in the peelers when there are places nowhere else’, but ‘a fella must work’. As an Irish Black-and-Tan, he experiences ‘the new world of guerilla war and reprisal, for a policeman is a target . . . Every recruited man is suspected by both sides of informing . . .’. Eneas’s decision earns him the lifelong enmity of Sligo republicans and, decades later, he becomes the last RIC casualty. Of the ADRIC Barry observes:

‘Many of the Auxiliaries are decorated boys . . . and saw sights worse than the dreariest nightmares. And they have come back altered forever and in a way more marked by atrocity than honoured by medals. They are half nightmare themselves, in their uniforms patched together from Army and RIC stores.’

The RIC, at least, offered a place for men with such experience, but Eneas was wary of being ‘jostled in the very barracks by these haunted faces’.

bnt 2
Black-and-Tan service records

Nineteenth- and early twentieth-century police records are rich sources of detailed information. The average age of the Black-and-Tans was 26.5 years and Auxiliaries were about three years older (29.4 years). Irish recruits were, on average, nearly a year and a half younger (25.5 years). The ten men who gave their birthplace as the USA were the tallest, at six feet, but the Irishmen maintained the constabulary height tradition at nearly five feet nine and a half inches, eight-tenths of an inch taller than other UK recruits.
Among the 490 Irish-born in the sample, nearly 60 per cent came from the provinces of Leinster (26.8%) and Ulster (31.3%). Munster and Connacht shared 37 per cent almost equally (the county of birth for almost five per cent is not known). Eighty-two per cent of Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries sampled were Protestant, 17.4 per cent were Catholic and there were ten English Jews. The largest proportion of Catholics, not surprisingly, was found among the Irish recruits (59 per cent of the 478 Catholics in the sample).
Fifty-five per cent of the Irish recruits were Catholic, mostly concentrated among the Black–and-Tans. Those born in Connacht and Munster were overwhelmingly Catholic (both 78 per cent) and 60 per cent of the Leinster men were Catholic. Ulster-born Black-and-Tans were overwhelmingly Protestant (72 per cent). The 46 Irish Auxiliaries included seventeen Catholics.
Service as a police mercenary attracted single men. Only 25 per cent of the recruits were married, with the Irish the least likely (12.1%) and Scots most likely (31.8%) to be married. Under the ‘old’ RIC Code, only single men were enrolled among the rank-and-file, who had to wait seven years for permission to marry. It is a measure of the seriousness of the security situation that married men were recruited at all. Besides being younger, Irish Black-and-Tans were probably less likely to be married because of risks to their families.
Two categories of prior occupations were recorded for Black-and-Tans. One hundred and eighty distinct occupations that cover the range of UK industries have been identified in the sample, all but a few of which were held by Black-and-Tans. More than a third of Black-and-Tan occupations can be grouped into several categories, the largest of which are clerks (4.3%), agriculture (6.7%), labourers (14.4%), mechanics (2.6%), and railway employees (4.5%). Only 136 of the Black-and-Tans in the sample were recruited directly from military service. Second occupations are listed for almost 68 per cent of those in the sample and 1,802 of those men (over 65 per cent of the entire sample) were military veterans. ADRIC men, on the other hand, generally showed only one occupation: ‘former military officer’, which accounted for nearly 95 per cent of the sample.
While 70 per cent of English and over 80 per cent of Scots Black-and-Tans had prior military service, fewer than 40 per cent of Irish recruits were veterans. Irishmen without prior military service continued to join the RIC. Clearly, unemployment forged a previously unseen connection with RIC recruiting traditions among the Irish-born Black-and-Tans. Dublin Castle would have quietly recognised them as the backbone of the future RIC, but publicity would invite IRA intimidation of recruits and their families.
The Black-and-Tans, with their military experience, received cursory training at the depot in the Phoenix Park before being posted to stations throughout Ireland. The register contains information on the postings of only 54 per cent of those in the sample, mostly about Black-and-Tans. But the data appear to reliably represent deployments because their known first postings correspond very closely to the counties in which RIC records (PRO, CO 904/148) show both large numbers of incidents and RIC casualties. Forty-eight per cent of Black-and-Tan reinforcements for whom postings are known went to the six counties where IRA activity against the police was heaviest.
The most dangerous county for the RIC was Cork, where at least 119 policemen were wounded and 90 killed. Cork also received the largest number of Black-and-Tan reinforcements—eleven per cent of the total or (extrapolating from the sample) more than 1,500 police irregulars. Close behind was Tipperary, with less than eleven per cent of Black-and-Tan assignments, or just under 1,500 men. More than 1,000 Black-and-Tans appear to have been sent to Galway. When Limerick, Clare and Kerry are added, these six counties received more than 6,600 of all the Black-and-Tans deployed.
All of the Black-and-Tans were not stationed in the southern and south-western counties at the same time, but they must have been very noticeable additions in small communities, another reason why they were remembered so vividly. Assignments to other counties varied widely and, for example, many fewer Black-and-Tans were needed to supplement the Ulster special constabularies.
The Black-and-Tans had a reputation for violent indiscipline that could be very dangerous to Irish civilians and even other policemen. Members of the ‘old’ RIC had very mixed reactions to their presence and violent behaviour that not all officers were able to restrain. Black-and-Tans were thought of as ‘gun-happy’ and the Auxiliaries’ ferocity was reputed to be fuelled by heavy drinking. Even officers who regarded the Black-and-Tans as effective assets against the IRA acknowledged that the strict disciplinary system in the RIC Code had not anticipated a large number of men who were not trained as policemen.

Attrition and disbandment

The military-trained reinforcements were supposed to enable the RIC to suppress the armed Irish independence movement. But incidents rose steeply and simultaneously with the introduction of the Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries until the Truce. The new recruits showed initial enthusiasm for the work, but the realities of wartime Ireland soon bore in. During the twelve months prior to the Truce, 330 members of the RIC were killed. The register indicates that 147 (45%) of these deaths were among Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries, a large share of the dangerous duty and casualties. Also, life in crowded, isolated stations (including attempts to impose discipline), boredom and community hostility diminished the appeal of good pay.
The RIC was disbanded after the Anglo-Irish Treaty of December 1921, but only 39 per cent of the sample (perhaps a total of 5,550 men) were still in the force to be mustered out in 1922. Irish recruits, despite the dangers, were much more likely than those from Britain (55 per cent compared to 36 per cent of the English and 39 per cent of the Scots) to be in the RIC at disbandment. The register is incomplete for 35.6 per cent (almost 4,900) of Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries and we do not know how they separated from the RIC. But the information in the sample for those who left but were not disbanded is probably a good indication. Dismissals, rarely with details, accounted for 128 of separations, which suggests termination for almost 650 Black-and-Tan and ADRIC recruits. Sixty-one men are reported in the ambiguous category ‘discharged’. The most common termination of service prior to disbandment was resignation.
The register contains reasons for only sixteen per cent of those who resigned, which is consistent with the promise in the enlistment poster: ‘If you don’t like the job—you can give a month’s notice—and leave’. But there were several themes. Some claimed ill health, while about 120 gave reasons related to personal affairs. Just over 30 English and Scots policemen were dissatisfied with the work, a reason that caused only one Irishman to resign. Nearly 70 English and Scots in the sample left to take a better position, an option available to only ten Irishmen. A reason for resignation cited only by Irishmen is intimidation of family members (ten, or two per cent of the Irish in the sample), which suggests that 100 Irishmen may have resigned to protect loved ones.
It was not coincidental that resignations among the Black-and-Tans increased along with the tedium of life under siege, violence and casualties. Douglas Duff probably summed up the view of the men who resigned and went home pretty well:

‘Remember, we were mercenary soldiers fighting for our pay, not patriots willing and anxious to die for our country . . . Our job was to earn our pay by suppressing armed rebellion, not to die in some foolish . . . “forlorn hope”.’

Even though the dehumanising experience of the First World War was assumed to have hardened Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries, sanctioned reprisals against Irish civilians did not sit well with all of the new recruits. Duff recalled ‘official reprisals’ as ‘horrible and dastardly burning of houses and furniture’ with the ‘due force of the law’.
When the RIC disbanded in 1922, all of those still enrolled, including Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries, were given lifetime annuities (later converted to indexed pensions). The ADRIC entries are almost entirely blank, but the Black-and-Tan entries are much more complete. Disbandment annuities were based on length of service, with the longest service possible about two years. The annual payment for each man varied between £55 for those who served longest and £47 for the most recent recruits. The average payment for each Black-and-Tan in the sample was £52. Irish Black-and-Tans averaged annuities of £55, higher than the English (£51.3) or Scots (£49.8) because more Irishmen remained in the RIC until the end.

The legacy of the Black-and-Tans

The militarisation of the RIC through the recruitment of veterans ultimately failed. Violence actually increased along with Black-and-Tan deployment, and the heavily reinforced RIC only achieved a stand-off with the IRA. The remaining Black-and-Tan and ADRIC policemen left in 1922 and the ‘old’ RIC went with them. The association of the Black-and-Tans with violence and intimidation against civilians established their reputation. Specific responsibility for reprisals is difficult to attribute, but tradition blames the Black-and-Tans for indiscriminate violence that had not been associated with the ‘old’ RIC. Military experience in the trenches seems to have made them the right men for Lloyd George’s ‘policeman’s job’.
Despite the record and legend of their RIC service, the personal details of Black-and-Tans and Auxiliaries emphasise that they were not remarkable among British workingmen and war veterans, except that they were willing to take a chance on dangerous duty in Ireland. But the untold story is the surprising number of young Irishmen who joined the RIC in its final months, despite the dangers for themselves and their families. Most Irish Black-and-Tans had not served in the military but, through it all, were the most likely to be serving at disbandment. Why did Irishmen join the RIC in the Black-and-Tan era and how did they escape notice for 80 years?
Until 1919 the Irish police service was considered decently paid, pensioned employment and an attractive alternative to emigration. But did more than 2,000 Irishmen find employment and emigration prospects so discouraging in 1920–1 that, like Eneas McNulty, even the embattled RIC was attractive? Good wages in a time of high unemployment were an inducement. But, still, it is a testament to the post-war environment that so many risked being on the ‘wrong side’ in the War of Independence.
It is perhaps easier to conjecture about why so many Irish Black-and-Tans went unnoticed. Neither the policemen nor their families would have been eager to call attention to their belated RIC service during or after the War of Independence. RIC men were not posted to their home counties and policemen had little contact with the communities in which they were stationed during 1920–1, so it is possible that the recruits were able to blend in with members of the ‘old’ RIC. Still, that there were so many Irishmen among the Black-and-Tans shows that there is still much to learn about the complexities of the War of Independence.

W.J. Lowe is Provost and Professor of History at Metropolitan State University, Saint Paul, Minnesota.

Acknowledgements
The author wishes to thank Michelle Sheldon, Jerold Davis and Jessica McLaughlin for their assistance.

If you mean contemporary wise I would suggest that this post would be better placed in the Soc-Military forum.

brianthebard

That's off topic Rebelheart. I would suggest that no one else reply on that topic and if you wish to discuss it to take it to military or politics or the army (if that exists) rather than this thread. Mod.

tomasocarthaigh

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

Rebelheart wrote: »

So said one of the guests on Sam Smyth's Sunday Supplement yesterday. The guest in question was using the name Elaine Byrne, which obviously couldn't be her real name when she's coming out with that.

Or could it?

Go to 54.10 here: 'I think there's a place to commemorate those who died for European freedom'


Anyway, does anybody here actually agree with her view? If so, I genuinely want to know its rational basis.

A few fools maybe yes, but the majority who faught, they faught for money and survival. However, it is to note there was a fear of Prussian ambitions, as what they had in store for the Poles and Jews was well known on the Polish Border Strip, long before a certain A. Hitler of ill repute who faught for the German army.

A granduncle of mine Tom Reilly faught in the American Army in WWI and the British in WWII, and the poem below tells his story.

Adventures sake
Brought the young sons of Erin
Into uniform

Thoughts of great glory
Among shot and shell in hell
Of the battlefield

To return to home
To kisses of loved ones
And relieved mothers

As hero's of old
Of whom they heard as children
At their mothers knee.

It was not to be
So many fell wounded and dead
The latter lucky.

A few unscathed bar
A shrapnel wound to the leg
A bootload of blood.

Some found love and lust
In Fräuleins welcoming arms
Seduced by victors.

To fight yet again
Same side, a new uniform
Maybe faced their own sons.

Their own flesh and blood
Under enemies high flag
As Germans were raised.
=========================
Hiding maybe the fact
That their fathers they were from
The enemies side

And as proud Aryan
Uniform they wore and fought
For land and for blood.

Germanys honour
Faith, Fuher and flag, they stood
Listened to Hitler

Hiding the fact that
No German were they but were
Half one of the Gael

And with weapons they faced
The fire of the enemy
One who was father

But father does not
Matter to such men of arms
Who fight for Fuher

Sometimes I
I think of those two young boys
Raised by grandparents

In a Rhine banks shop
Their mother who died in birth
So the boys could live

To hold guns to fight
And to face their own father
On a field of battle.

Strange... such it is life
Its twists and its turns weave odd
Patterns in lives.

Morlar

That is very interesting and thanks for posting.

From my understanding the british recruitment propaganda of that time in Ireland did not stress 'jews and poles' so much as German treatment of 'little catholic Belgium'. This would have been fairly vulnerable to republican counter-propaganda considering what britain was doing to 'little catholic Ireland'.

who the fug

Morlar wrote: »

That is very interesting and thanks for posting.

From my understanding the british recruitment propaganda of that time in Ireland did not stress 'jews and poles' so much as German treatment of 'little catholic Belgium'. This would have been fairly vulnerable to republican counter-propaganda considering what britain was doing to 'little catholic Ireland'.

Killing home rule by kindness, was a bitch

CDfm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

who the fug wrote: »

Killing home rule by kindness, was a bitch

it may not have been really.

Our "peasants" got land ownership and WWI did deliver the vote anyway.

Compatitively, to other" european peasants" Land & Bread was achieved.

I haven't really read anything much about universal suffrage in the traditions of the political parties of the time.

The 1916 Rising was fairly middle class until Connolly and the ICA joined at the last minute.

It was the Home Rule Party who had the electoral mandate at the time WWI started.

brianthebard

who the fug wrote: »

Killing home rule by kindness, was a bitch

Can we have a bit more thought out and considered posts in this thread/forum in future please? This sort of thing borders on spam.

who the fug

brianthebard wrote: »

Can we have a bit more thought out and considered posts in this thread/forum in future please? This sort of thing borders on spam.

The British government was pumping money into the Ireland from 1890 onwards, and there was very little repression in Ireland, so what was Britain doing to Little Catholic Ireland in 1914 that makes it as bad as what was going on in Belgium

So I made a sarky comment on what was posted

brianthebard

who the fug wrote: »

The British government was pumping money into the Ireland from 1890 onwards, and there was very little repression in Ireland, so what was Britain doing to Little Catholic Ireland in 1914 that makes it as bad as what was going on in Belgium

Clearly you don't understand the point that was being made so. Morlar was referring to British recruitment in Ireland during WWI which concentrated heavily on atrocities/attacks on Belgium, another small Catholic country which Ireland had a lot of connections to. Morlar is also no doubt referencing repressive measures introduced as a result of the war, such as DORA, and also the disproportionate cost of the war burdened on Ireland, which was used as counter propaganda by republicans.

So I made a sarky comment on what was posted

Yes I know. Less of them please.

mrjoneill

who the fug wrote: »

The British government was pumping money into the Ireland from 1890 onwards, and there was very little repression in Ireland, so what was Britain doing to Little Catholic Ireland in 1914 that makes it as bad as what was going on in Belgium

So I made a sarky comment on what was posted

Have you forgotten the Land War?
Knocking the poor impoverished peasants homes in top of them with the British Army at hand to assist in the process, many of these peasant turned out on to the roadway was often to their death.

CDfm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

It is not as simple as you make out.

The Land League and the question of land ownership operated independently to the Irish Independence Party for a long time and it does seem that they were often two seperate and distinct issues. There is some crossover.

You were not talking about a unified concensus movement. The political IIP became more interested in the Land Question with the extention of the franchise. Remember that at this time only 32 % of males had the vote and in 1900 the numbers of true democracies worldwide was Zero. So democracy was in its infancy too.

Also, at that time the Land War was very much settled unless you are talking about the Ranch War 1906 09 -which was in the west of Ireland and concerned commercial cattle farms vs tillage. Tillage being labour intensive but precarious owing to Irish Weather. The Ranch Wars often concerned Irish Catholic owners too.

Job creation - Land League style.

On specifics, the Phoenix Park Murders and the John O'Connell Curtain murder would be more pivotal. The latter moreso as he was a tenant farmer who was murdered for his gun in the 1880's and his family were forced to emigrate as they were boycotted as they had named his murdererers. In the former assassination the Invincibles were a splinter group of the IRB.

So class was important and not all sectors of society shared the same aspirations. Michael Collins came from a relatively prosperous farming family and he emigrated as did the Protestant Sam Maguire -a neighbour of his.

I mean the Carriginimma/.Muskerry Whiteboy executions in West Cork in 1822 were stuck in popular culture as a more relevant event-especially with the West Cork Brigade- and even then when you read the history of the case the local protestants & landlords were against some of the executions. The headson spikes in Macroom (black balls) is mentioned by Peader O'Laoighaire in "Mo Sceal Fein".

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67179621&postcount=47

The fate of Carey the Invincibles leader who "gave up" his colleagues is mentioned the "Monto" the Dubliners song. However, the treatment of John O'Connell Curtains family and their Boycott and subsequent emigration is something that does nobody any credit.

I don't think you can equate it in terms of modern day politics. The Home Rule Party were definately middle class and some of their aims were economic and they wanted their economic policies for Ireland adopted.

To give a specific example. Just take the Irish Cooperative Movement which grew out of the new environment.

You also had the Irish Cooperative movement which has been hugely significant in the development of the Irish Food and Dairy industry which was contemporaneous with this

Horace Plunkett set up the first co-operative creamery in 1889. Plunkett felt that if farmers were to prosper they needed to combine together in business organisations. Together with RA Andersen, the Reverend Tom Finlay SJ and Lord Monteagle and some other friends, Plunkett began to promote the setting up of co-operative creameries and co-operative agricultural societies.

Sir Horace Plunkett, 1854- 1932

By 1894 there were 33 co-operatives established and Plunkett recognised the need to establish his work on a more formal basis. On April 18th, 1894, the inaugural meeting of the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society- known as IAOS- was held. This name would remain until 1979, when it was changed to ICOS.

IAOS was designed to help farmers organise every branch of their industry co-operatively and represent them on large questions through a central body.
Arising from Plunkett’s efforts to encourage the government to provide the necessary educational and technical assistance, a Recess Committee was convened that recommended the setting up of a Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction. This gave rise to the setting up of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction in 1899, with Plunkett as its first Vice-President and Chief Executive.
The numbers of co-operatives in Ireland grew to 1,114 by 1920. The creameries and agriculture societies were the first to be established, but there were closely followed by the setting up of Agricultural Credit Co-operatives.

http://www.icos.ie/content/content.asp?section_id=278

Take Kerry Co-op largely born out of this and probably would not have happened at all if you had to wait for political thinking on economics to catch up.

A major catalyst for growth was that in needed replacement activities as a result of EC supported programmes to eradicate TB etc

However in 1979 everything changed for Kerry Co-op when the county was chosen as a pilot area for a bovine disease eradication scheme. Allied to this, milk production was further depressed due to wet summer weather in 1979 and in 1980, which meant that Kerry lost almost 20% of its milk supply. This was highly significant in that it happened at a time when the Co-op was in the course of completing a €18 million capital expenditure programme at the NKMP plant in Listowel.

The Group has grown organically and through a series of strategic acquisitions in its relatively short history, from the commissioning of its first dairy and ingredients plant in Listowel, Ireland in 1972, and has achieved sustained profitable growth with current annualised sales of approximately €4.5 billion.
Headquartered in Tralee, Ireland, the Group employs over 20,000 people throughout its manufacturing, sales, technology and application centres across Europe, North America, South America, Australia, New Zealand and Asian Markets.
We supply over 15,000 food, food ingredients and flavour products to customers in more than 140 countries worldwide. We have established manufacturing facilities in 20 different countries and international sales offices in 20 other countries across the globe.
Launched as a public company in 1986, Kerry Group plc is listed on the Dublin and London Stock Markets and has a current market capitalisation in excess of €3.5 billion.

http://www.kerrygroup.com/page.asp?pid=80

So to say it was unified is an over simplification. There were some sectors who welcomed the economic policies and worked them and Plunketts Co-op Model has been used worldwide by developing economies.

Lesser thinkers have been Nobel Laureates and he has affected the lives of so many people. Maybe we should have a Horace Plunkett Day as a National Holiday as he truly was a giant in the field of Agricultural Economics. He was probably Irelands Karl Marx.

walrusgumble

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

CDfm wrote: »

it may not have been really.

Our "peasants" got land ownership and WWI did deliver the vote anyway.

Compatitively, to other" european peasants" Land & Bread was achieved.

I haven't really read anything much about universal suffrage in the traditions of the political parties of the time.

The 1916 Rising was fairly middle class until Connolly and the ICA joined at the last minute.

It was the Home Rule Party who had the electoral mandate at the time WWI started.

you hit the nail on the head regarding the land, ala the various land acts during the IPP's and Michael Davitt's (someone sadly forgotten about) glorious run in Westminister. Many were content, and many areas did not put a great deal of effort into the war of independence. If the boys of Cork could have somehow got their guns surely so could the others (ok, that is really not a proper statement as there were many other aspects as to why Cork was suitable for gurellia warfare, but considering the floods that attempted to join the Free State army at truce time, something has got to give)

Of course I no doubt believe that you are not saying all the land boys were doing well, but the big boys did ok out of it. Funny how it was our own lot turning on each other and the church (surprise surprise always turns to the ones with the big pockets) during the Dublin lock out, a time when we had one of the highest child morality rates in Europe (despite Rotunda apparently being the first purposed built maternity hospital)

KeithAFC

I disagree with it

Heros everyone of them. Truly brave men. Won't find a generation like that again. I had relatives in the 36th Ulster division.