Irishmen who fought for the British Empire in WW1 fought for 'European freedom'

CDfm · 09-04-2010 11:19am

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

walrusgumble wrote: »

RE Popularity. There can be no denying that the recruitment was popular and taken up by thousands

i meant popular as in politically popular

RE West Cork. Thanks for the history lesson on the uniqueness of COrk IRA:rolleyes:, but it still does not answer my question. I asked was your grandfather involved in the running and planning of all attacks, was he privy to all information.

He was active and not a bystander and also had a planning role.

i feel both ryan and harte are both misguided here by their own agendas.

dunmanway was a turkey shoot and what meda ryan is trying to justify she cant really.

EDIT -the justification for Dunmanway is very similar to the justificastions used for Bloody Sunday in 1972 . I knew about this stuff before it ever appeared in the pop histories you get.The victims were no more spies or informers then anyone else. Just ordinary joes.

Yes West Cork, we truely out of the control of Britian. However, prior to the truce as you full well know, the major barracks and garrissons were still in tact and people were working underground (at this point I highely doubt I need to explain further, and note there were 10,000 + British service men in the area).

Its fine to discuss it between ourselves but others would not know that west cork was uniquely sucessful for nationalists.

But the last bit suggests that because the truce had been called and because the british presence had rescided by the time these incidents occurred, it was so strange and rare that it was extremely hard for even a person living in cave not to find out about them? Could you confirm this please?

I am not suggesting that. What I am saying was that people including my grandfather and his brother in law felt strongly about these attacks being murder. one of his close friends was jewish whose family moved to cork from limerick in 1904. he viewed dunmanway as similar.

Re history book. Yes you are absolutely right. I am not suggesting that though. I was merely noting a source you used (not neccessarily, if I understand, that you inteneded to assist your argument in anyway) I am not advocating the history book matter at all. I dropped it when you made yourself clear 3 posts ago.

Thanks - I feel both sides are making a bit of a spin.

One other matter though, which is a shame, is not, not everyone made statements etc, and many brought their experience to the grave. Which is a shame. Their voices/ attitudes were not recorded

That is a very interesting point.

The timing and content of Tom Barry's book was significant and if people cite inconsistencies between statements he made etc its because they choose to ignore the reality.Michael Collins brother lived in Dublin and would have had mutual friends with his killers. So the detail is brief.

You will probably be aware of Brendan Behans "Borstal Boy" events and how on his return how he grabbed a gun at a funeral and fired at a policeman. His actions could have resulted in the death penalty and he ceased all activities.In all likelyhood his release at that time accompanied an undertaking to cease all activities (probably before he would have suceeeded in getting himself killed ).

Behan was a bit of a tragic comedy but I just put it there to illustrate a point that the negotiations that accompanied his release and he would have had connections (Peader Kearney his uncle wrote the national anthem).

During WWII you had various veterans active and they were interned etc. They were given the option of giving up their activities and settling down and getting jobs and housing etc or the chop. Fairly extreme stuff as it could have directly affected neutrality. so the penalties or effects on their families would have been extreme.

While you would have expected some to be interviewed in the 1970s when they were dying off( Tom Barry died in 1980) they didnt because of the Northern Ireland situation etc.They also took their disagreements to the grave too and there was a lot of hatred and bad feeling flying around.

So the happy clappy version thats put out there is not at all how it was.

walrusgumble · 09-04-2010 1:56pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

CDfm wrote: »

i meant popular as in politically popular

He was active and not a bystander and also had a planning role.

i feel both ryan and harte are both misguided here by their own agendas.

dunmanway was a turkey shoot and what meda ryan is trying to justify she cant really.

EDIT -the justification for Dunmanway is very similar to the justificastions used for Bloody Sunday in 1972 . I knew about this stuff before it ever appeared in the pop histories you get.The victims were no more spies or informers then anyone else. Just ordinary joes.

Its fine to discuss it between ourselves but others would not know that west cork was uniquely sucessful for nationalists.

I am not suggesting that. What I am saying was that people including my grandfather and his brother in law felt strongly about these attacks being murder. one of his close friends was jewish whose family moved to cork from limerick in 1904. he viewed dunmanway as similar.

Thanks - I feel both sides are making a bit of a spin.

That is a very interesting point.

The timing and content of Tom Barry's book was significant and if people cite inconsistencies between statements he made etc its because they choose to ignore the reality.Michael Collins brother lived in Dublin and would have had mutual friends with his killers. So the detail is brief.

You will probably be aware of Brendan Behans "Borstal Boy" events and how on his return how he grabbed a gun at a funeral and fired at a policeman. His actions could have resulted in the death penalty and he ceased all activities.In all likelyhood his release at that time accompanied an undertaking to cease all activities (probably before he would have suceeeded in getting himself killed ).

Behan was a bit of a tragic comedy but I just put it there to illustrate a point that the negotiations that accompanied his release and he would have had connections (Peader Kearney his uncle wrote the national anthem).

During WWII you had various veterans active and they were interned etc. They were given the option of giving up their activities and settling down and getting jobs and housing etc or the chop. Fairly extreme stuff as it could have directly affected neutrality. so the penalties or effects on their families would have been extreme.

While you would have expected some to be interviewed in the 1970s when they were dying off( Tom Barry died in 1980) they didnt because of the Northern Ireland situation etc.They also took their disagreements to the grave too and there was a lot of hatred and bad feeling flying around.

So the happy clappy version thats put out there is not at all how it was.

Finally we have some understanding. I see what you mean about political popularity. On aside note, Funny, when justifing Irish methods of gaining Independence to a pacfist, I would tend to go down the road of sure "they were all doing it back then" (ie going to war)

As I said, I was not trying to contradict you on your grandfather's case, moreover, considering that you are from Cork, at some point in your life you would have heard from SEVERAL sources about legends, myths, truths etc. I would tend to agree with the last few paragraphs you have mentioned. So it looks like there is always room for more history books on this area after all.

I dispise it when the troubles in the North (separate matter, in some instances, though can't completely ignore the links) is brought into it by SOME people who CLEARLY have a hidden agendas (not saying you!). However, facts remains, looking at our history: why the decline of say the Gaelic League or attitudes of how Parnell fell, the fall out from Grattan's Parliament and 1798, and of course the rise of O'Connell, sectarianism was not born overnight in the 1970's or the history of the 6 counties.

Just one thing, Bloody Sunday. They were shot because they were believed to be carrying arms. A few did throw stones, but they were kids. THere were other marches and they had been peaceful. (well, there was the Battle of the Bogside) Either way, the marches kept to themselves and were not trying to attack the institutions, simply looking for a fair slice; that as far as the Brits are concerned can't be indispute. Ok, they believed (and later planted) weapons on some dead, that IRA men were about, but they acted in a complete indiscriminative manner and KNEW there were shooting innocents, in front of the world's tv cameras.

Can I ask, was it common belief and understanding by the rest of the communities, that the families in Dunmanway were completely innnocent and had no dangerous link at any time British forces?

For the record, there is a place along the boarder, controlled by Frank Aiken, which has also being considered a savage sectarian attack. See his documentary in the history threads.

CDfm · 09-04-2010 3:55pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

walrusgumble wrote: »

Finally we have some understanding. I see what you mean about political popularity. On aside note, Funny, when justifing Irish methods of gaining Independence to a pacfist, I would tend to go down the road of sure "they were all doing it back then" (ie going to war)

LOL -at last

As I said, I was not trying to contradict you on your grandfather's case, moreover, considering that you are from Cork, at some point in your life you would have heard from SEVERAL sources about legends, myths, truths etc. I would tend to agree with the last few paragraphs you have mentioned. So it looks like there is always room for more history books on this area after all.

He only spoke about it on a very few occasions at the end of his life. No bragging at all. I imagine his motivation even then it was said in the context of what was happening in the north. I met a friend of his in the USA years after his death who put it in context.

Recently I came accross some papers someone else had and got more detail-though the guy that has them is totally unaware of their significance.IMHO -he is better off.

I dispise it when the troubles in the North (separate matter, in some instances, though can't completely ignore the links) is brought into it by SOME people who CLEARLY have a hidden agendas (not saying you!).

You cant compare as the dynamic was different.

I dont have a hidden agenda on it.However, facts remains, looking at our history: why the decline of say the Gaelic League or attitudes of how Parnell fell, the fall out from Grattan's Parliament and 1798, and of course the rise of O'Connell, sectarianism was not born overnight in the 1970's or the history of the 6 counties

No it wasnt. Take Wellington -he was a leader who wanted power. He also supported Catholic Emancipation. Had worked out the Great Famine before it happened and saw it as a train wreck waiting to happen and as Britains responsibility. Not saying he was a visionary but when you look at it in the context of the Poor Law Debates in the 1830s -if it was obvious to Wellington -then it was well obvious to many.

there are no black and whites.

Just one thing, Bloody Sunday. They were shot because they were believed to be carrying arms. A few did throw stones, but they were kids. THere were other marches and they had been peaceful. (well, there was the Battle of the Bogside) Either way, the marches kept to themselves and were not trying to attack the institutions, simply looking for a fair slice; that as far as the Brits are concerned can't be indispute. Ok, they believed (and later planted) weapons on some dead, that IRA men were about, but they acted in a complete indiscriminative manner and KNEW there were shooting innocents, in front of the world's tv cameras.

On Bloody Sunday - a blind man could see the official version at the time was a con. Dunmanway -well it was planned. Same dog - different hair.

Can I ask, was it common belief and understanding by the rest of the communities, that the families in Dunmanway were completely innnocent and had no dangerous link at any time British forces?

I imagine so. I mean areas like Bandon had a big integrated population and still do -but then again it was something not spoken about. Very much like a guy arrested for rape even if he is acquitted there is still a stigma.

As far as I know people had no problem doing business with the families & I was unaware until recently that I knew two of the families.

For the record, there is a place along the boarder, controlled by Frank Aiken, which has also being considered a savage sectarian attack. See his documentary in the history threads.

And thats the thing with this kind of thing -its not being disloyal to point out the truth. Its ok to be a fan but you have to look at the flaws too.

MarchDub · 09-04-2010 4:20pm

CDfm wrote: »

Take Wellington -he was a leader who wanted power. He also supported Catholic Emancipation. Had worked out the Great Famine before it happened and saw it as a train wreck waiting to happen and as Britains responsibility. Not saying he was a visionary but when you look at it in the context of the Poor Law Debates in the 1830s -if it was obvious to Wellington -then it was well obvious to many.

.

There were many voices uttering concern about the economic situation in Ireland. Not that it did any good. Daniel O'Connell was one of the first to draw attention to it. He had been very aware of the great change in the Irish economy at the end of the Napoleonic Wars - Irish farms had boomed with orders to feed the British army and navy. O'Connell expressed concern at the huge drop in prices for farm goods in the 1820s when the consequences of the subdivision of farms into small holdings became apparent with a growing population now dependent on the potato crop. He was very vocal in the House of Common about the coming disaster in Ireland - the Irish economy he said was a "recipe for disaster" in one of his speeches to the Commons.

Wellington was not always on board regarding Catholic Emancipation. He had resisted it for some time. In one of his letters in the Spring of 1830 O'Connell referred to this as - "in the annals of history there never was anything so undignified as the resistance of the Duke of Wellington to Emancipation, save and except the manner in which he yielded to it".

CDfm · 09-04-2010 5:13pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

Wellington was a bit of a boyo - it is hard to know whether to like him or not.

His nickname the Iron Duke originates from railings erected around his house to protect from riots.

mrjoneill · 14-04-2010 10:09pm

Peter Harte is not a real historians, he has printed so much inaccurate material and has claimed he interviewed people he clearly didn’t’. One can easily state his history is a mishmash of half baked truths, lies and the unsubstantiated. His agenda is that of a Canadian die heart Unionist and also as the old saying goes “paper never refused ink”.
And I have being at meetings where he was at and relatives of those whom he quoted stated to him he never me them nor was in their houses. It seems Harte got a rumour gave it flesh and it became an authoritive history of the Protestant Holocaust of the Irish Free State.

As for atrocities one can look at the many that their flesh was grated off them on the highways and byways from them while being dragged behind British forces vehicles and if found to be alive on the barracks were kicked to death. There is no evidence of genocide of the protestant people of West Cork in fact the evidence is to the contrary. There were a few isolated incidents where old scores were settled after the War of Independence and that were it. The reprisal burnings after the peasant homes burnings had a more important impact than anything on the Protestant population in West Cork and one can judge how quickly the word spread to Dublin for Crown forces to desist from their practice that it was so effective. To quote Lady Gregory when she asked a farm laborer in her estate as to why her house did not go up in flames she was told “you were good to all, poor and rich alike”. Also executions in the War of Independence took place where the informers were responsible for the loss of life only; the choice of leaving Ireland was given to the others where it did not involve loss of life. For the Limerick Pogrom it was a few broken panes of glass, no one was hurt, no one was injured and it was sparked by a deranged cleric against the wish of the RC hierarchy and it occurred in British run Ireland. For the Alice Hodder note to the British Government about the plight of the Loyalist people of Cork I don’t think she ever accepted the Irish Free State or anything Irish which can be judged from the whipping of kids with her horse-whip as she rode her horse through Crosshaven and Carrigalin after independence. If one is to look at the harmonious relationship between the poorer Protestant and Catholic in West Cork it’s the close cooperation between them in Mizen that bears testimony to this.

A free and independent Ireland was a total anathema to the British especially the Tory ruling classes. As for sectarian hate one can look there also and for the phrase “Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right” and for the root and support for sectarian strife in Ireland.
As for the posters contention there was not a real plebiscite held on independence, the facts are it’s not a constitutional means in the UK. Parliament decides is the norm and those elected to it doing the deciding. The vast vast majority of Irish representation decided for an independent Ireland and their wish was ignored.
So much suffering in Ireland could have being averted with a Britain with a vision to the future for Ireland.

CDfm · 14-04-2010 10:32pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

I disagree with you as the Dunmanway massacre may not have been unconnected to Black & Tan actions in the area previously. These were civilians.

The Limerick Jewish pogrom caused a mass exodus of the Jewish population in the City.

In the context people are hardly going to wait to be massacred but took off.

Its not a huge leap of the immagination to link the events.

If one accuses Harte of bias one also must accept that Professor Murphy and Meda Ryan of UCC are also biased.

Its hard to see how this translates into freedom and democracy for everyone. I cant see it.

walrusgumble · 15-04-2010 9:50am

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

CDfm wrote: »

I disagree with you as the Dunmanway massacre may not have been unconnected to Black & Tan actions in the area previously. These were civilians.

The Limerick Jewish pogrom caused a mass exodus of the Jewish population in the City.

In the context people are hardly going to wait to be massacred but took off.

Its not a huge leap of the immagination to link the events.

If one accuses Harte of bias one also must accept that Professor Murphy and Meda Ryan of UCC are also biased.

Its hard to see how this translates into freedom and democracy for everyone. I cant see it.

There is a huge difference between these people. Harte has lied through his teeth about the claims he makes and has no back up. (made up witnessess and British Proganda) He was found with his trousers down when confronted publically about his sources. He has yet, as promised in written form, to rebut the allegations against him. Witness and particapants to the wars have made their statements. Though of course one might need to take care when reading these ie emotions when writing them years later after a bitter civil war - look at the war of words that kind of occurred between Tom Barry and Liam Deasey after Deasey's book of the period (though not extensively written by himself mind) came out in the 1970's.

Re The Limerick Pologram. If you are trying to make clear that Ireland has not always being religiously tolerated then fine, no one will disagreee. Both Protestants and Catholics have been responsible for some bad moments. But what has this event got to do with (a) War of Independence or (b) Irish fighting in World War 1. THere were some Jews who actually took part in the Tan War (Briscoe's of Dublin being one, or the famous solicitor - can't think of his name, who acted for Collins and Griffith during the Tan War and Free State) What is your angle here? What are you trying to discredit? The actions of one city and a group of lunatic clerics can't be tarred with the one brush, which you seem to be trying

Deomocracy and Freedom etc, jesus you are taking the pi*s now. Hardly as much as 10,000 being effected. Just come out with it now and express your opinion on this period instead of hiding behind what you are really meaning to say. THere have been Lord Mayors of Cork and Dublin and TD's who belong to the Jewish faith.The incidents in Limerick were heavily criticised by the established groups of the day. What was done was horrible, to any person on the basis of religion. I wouldn't wish to give you the pleasure for saying "ah but everyone or many treated the Jewish or others worse in that period, Germany even in ww1 were not too keen on them despite many Jews fighting for Germany". Sure the biggest bunch of Secterains of this country's history was initially those of the Protestant Ascendency and members of the Orange Order , and don't even try to rebut that. THe important manner is matter is how the country moved on from there.

Again, how is the Limerick Incident connected to the topic in question or the Tan war? (Arthur Griffith? please!)

CDfm · 15-04-2010 10:37am

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

I am not saying that Harte is a good historian or even that his sources are correct. He took an event which is the equivalent of Bloody Sunday in Protestant Circles and wrote about it.

What I am saying is Historians like Murphy and Ryan downplay its significance and the outflow of refugee southern Irish Protestants in its aftermath and the message they brought to the UK was significant. I would imagine that and Wilson had a huge effect on the Boundary Commission,for instance, because you are talking 10,000 (or whatever number there was) refugees.

When I was taught Irish history that wasn't taught. So there is a lack of empathy for the southern Protestant population but also the effect these refugees had on UK opinion.So were the British and the Southern Protestants comfortable that the New State could protect them. The outflow means no.

Economically, you also had an outflow of investment capital as a result of this too.

My angle is very simple and its that civilian populations move when they are intimidated or under attack and I only brought up Limerick as it had seen a large migration from Limerick to Cork. So Cork was more tolerant than Limerick.( Well after Independence a Soviet was declared in the Village of Hospital:D)

And Briscoe -if I remember correctly went to the Christian Brothers.So yes he was" integrated."

I am trying to keep on track with the tread and the question did the WWI soldiers think they were fighting for democracy etc. Even Tom Barry was a veteran of WWI.

So in this situation how did the democracy match up to expectations or did it.Don't forget you also had Civil War prejudice come into play for years. Wasnt WT Cosgrave a Bolands Mills guy?So did it create a blueprint for adversorial politics?

EDIT:So lost between the facts is empathy for individuals and consequences.Thats where Murphy and Ryan miss out for me. Harte may have exposed a hole but sorry that hole would not be there except for the vision of history being taught.

From a Boundary Commision perspective cant you see that whatever the goodwill of the treaty negotiations these actions put the kibosh on it.

mrjoneill · 15-04-2010 9:45pm

One would want to thread very careful on anti Jewishness in Ireland it seems to me to be driven by an agenda which is totally at variance with the overall circumstances. The facts are the Jewish faith and the RC faith were never at logger heads in Ireland except for this brief incident which was sparked off by a deranged cleric on convoluted religious grounds and that age old tenets of “usury”. This incident was not representative of the rest of the country and found no support elsewhere. It is similar in isolation to the Fethard-on-Sea boycotting of the late 1950ths. It was not like the wave of hate that periodically spread through Europe. When taking into context of the raging anti jewishness that raged in Europe it was very mild. If one is to look through Church of Ireland records it was here where most of the official discrimination rested and a symbolic example of this can be found in their meeting records which always ended with a prayer for the conversion of the Jews. And for window breaking and gross intimidations in Ireland one could look at the Unionist population treatment of German and their allies business in Ireland during WWI. The fact is that Irish nationalist in paramilitary uniform had to stand guard outside them to protect them from this unionist mob many in British Army uniforms breaking their windows and gross intimidation. This was in particular targeted on the large number of German butcher shops in Dublin and other cities.

I have heard the former Lord Mayor of Cork Gerald Goldberg state his religion was never an issue in his life in Ireland. I believe there was one incident when he was a student in UCC when a few students tried to stop him speaking at a student event but they were quickly silenced by the vast majority of the group. I also have heard Gerald Goldberg speak of his fathers life in Limerick and except for that brief incident spoke of the warmth his father felt for the Clare, North Kerry and North Tipp people whom he seems was dealing with as a travelling salesman constantly. I understand he bore no ill will on Limerick as its origin lay on the deranged and those who sheepishly followed, but understanding the period one can easily see how it could happen. That is an underprivileged and uneducated populace depending on the advice and guidance of their religious leaders and there was one bad apple in that barrel.
I understand most of the Jewish people left Limerick after this many immigrated to Canada. From a discussion with a Jewish person while I was there a few yrs ago who was descended from this Limerick émigré group spoke of the widespread discrimination she endured and her family there up to relatively recent. Most employers discriminated against them as well as the professions.

CDfm · 16-04-2010 12:20am

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

I agree with you but the migratiion of the jews from Cork to Limerick when no-one was killed was echoed by the protestant refugees.

Goldberg was prevented from speaking at the philosopohical society in UCC and I think it was Tomas Og McCurtain who intervened on his behalf at a subsequent meeting.You had a TD called Oliver J Flannagan in the Dail who was an anti-semite too.

My aim was not to bring up anti semitism but to point out that the Protestant Refugees were every bit as scared as anyone else in a similar situation.

So Irish Independence meant different thinks to different people.

The white bit in the tri-colour probably stands for the ordinary people who were just trying to get by with their ordinary lives.

mrjoneill · 16-04-2010 12:19pm

I agree with you but the migratiion of the jews from Cork to Limerick when no-one was killed was echoed by the protestant refugees.
===============================================

It’s comparing apples and oranges to compare anti-Semitism to anti Protestantism. The Protestant population in Ireland was where power resided in British run Ireland and it was these who ran the country for their British masters. It was these who opposed the revolution in Ireland. It was these who let millions of their fellow countrymen die while they exported more than enough to feed them. It was these who sought and got a change in the law at the Famine time for the law to be changed to a misdemeanor to knock the Irish peasants’ cabins in on them when they refused to leave them. And to add to the fun this demeanor was to be judged on by RM drawn from the same small class. It was this small property owning class that caused massive divisions in rural Ireland by proselytizing the RC population. I refer to such practices of taking land from RC tenants and allocating it to those who changed to Protestantism. The results of such divisions were very live issues up to relatively recently in rural Ireland with such derogatory terms attached to such families as “soupers” and “grabbers”.

The Jewish population in Ireland was always very small, urban and not in a position of power. They were as much discriminated against as their RC countrymen. It is only of recent times that of post WWII that the crimes against Judaism were comprehended. In WWII it was never an issue of the allies the preservation of Judaism. There was never an attempt made to bomb the concentration camps which millions of Jews were known to be killed. The railroads were never attacked to stop this flood of people to these camps either. I believe during WWII there was one accidental bomb dropped in a concentration camp. The ruling class in Britain at Appeasement known as the Chiltern Set practiced blatant anti Semitism. The then British Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax a confident of the British king was a self-confessed anti-Semitic. The Britain of that time it was either an anti Jewish joke it or it was ant Irish one.
The right wing Jewish-British Sunday Times columnist and author Simon Jonathan Sebag-Montefiore a descendent of this Limerick émigré group has being of recent using this Limerick incident to highlight what he refers to the blatant sectarian nature of Irish society. He has being joined in this by the other right wing British historian Roberts who has a passionate hatred against Ireland. It was his right wing class that is responsible for the British problem in Ireland.

As for Charles Flanagan’s anti Semitic quote in the Dail it was just one such comment it did not represent a common view in Ireland or the Dail. Flanagan later apologized for his comment. As for quoting these two incidents to show the anti Semitic nature of Irish society I would respond that “two swallows don’t make a summer” and it has no relationship to the struggle for Irish independence hampered by a small minded, superior class, largely Protestant unionism.

CDfm · 16-04-2010 1:15pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

I am not making any point about anti semitism. You never really has Irish witch trials either. And the firstJewish Mayor of anywhere in the British Isles was a William Annyas who was elected as mayor of Youghal, County Cork in 1555.Jews didn't get the vote until after the catholics either in the UK. Disraeli a JFK like figure became Prime Minister.Maybe you should tell Sebag about these guys.

What I am saying is refugees are the same.In the same way as the Jews departed Limerick so to did Protestants decamp to the UK.What did they say about the Irish when they arrived -bet there were loads of church collections, politician lobbying and meetings. Must have been a great PR coup for Unionists.

Presbyterians, methodists, baptists etc were never part of the established churches and lots had affiliations with the republican movement certainly pre Catholic Emancipation. Labeling them all Protestant is a bit selective.

So maybe the departures were fear based and those who left had no political affiliations other than trying to make a living for themselves and their families.

Did Ireland develop its own Little Irelander philosophy to match your Little Englander philosophy. It looks like it.

EDIT -and here is a link to the rout the jews From the country speech and it was Oliver J Flannagan.

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0091/D.0091.194307090010.html

So what I am trying to do here is humanise the definitions and dump the labels and make it about people. I think the historians are making points but miss the reality.

MarchDub · 16-04-2010 11:49pm

When De Valera was drafting the Constitution in 1936 he consulted with his good friend Rabbi Isaac Herzog - who had sheltered De Valera and other Sinn Fein members in his house during the War of Independence - on how to word a section in the Irish Constitution that would guarantee Jewish constitutional rights within the new Irish state. Herzog advised on the final wording and the Irish Constitution thus guaranteed Irish Jews constitution rights. An unusual statement for its time.

The concern was what was happening in Europe where Jewish citizens saw their citizenship stripped from them in Germany, most especially by the Nuremberg Laws of 1935. This anti-Jewish philosophy was being exported out of Germany and would ultimately become law in Italy, Slovakia, Romania and even in France. De Valera's consultation with Rabbi Hergog was specifically in order to prevent similar influences in Ireland.

Robert Briscoe - chief gun runner for the importation of arms [appointed by Michael Collins] later wrote of his experiences in the IRA. It makes for an interesting and fascinating read. He remained true to his Jewish faith and true to his commitment to an Independent Ireland. Even when he was on the run with other members of the IRA he kept to his faith's dietary laws. He entered the Dail in 1927 as a supporter of De Valera and a FF member.

In the 1930s the leader of the Irgun, the Israeli military Zionists - Jacotinsky - took as his code name "Michael" in honour of Michael Collins and in admiration of how the Irish had managed to oust the British.

In 1966 in recognition of his public life and his honouring Irish Jewish Citizens, the Dublin Jewish community organized the planting of a forest in Israel dedicated to Eamon de Valera. Kfar Kana, near Jerusalem, is the site of this forest. The Israeli Prime Minister wrote that it was a "fitting expression of the traditional friendship between the Irish and Jewish peoples".

SlabMurphy · 17-04-2010 4:20pm

CDfm wrote: »

I am not saying that Harte is a good historian or even that his sources are correct. He took an event which is the equivalent of Bloody Sunday in Protestant Circles and wrote about it.

What I am saying is Historians like Murphy and Ryan downplay its significance and the outflow of refugee southern Irish Protestants in its aftermath and the message they brought to the UK was significant. I would imagine that and Wilson had a huge effect on the Boundary Commission,for instance, because you are talking 10,000 (or whatever number there was) refugees.

When I was taught Irish history that wasn't taught. So there is a lack of empathy for the southern Protestant population but also the effect these refugees had on UK opinion.So were the British and the Southern Protestants comfortable that the New State could protect them. The outflow means no.

Economically, you also had an outflow of investment capital as a result of this too.

My angle is very simple and its that civilian populations move when they are intimidated or under attack and I only brought up Limerick as it had seen a large migration from Limerick to Cork. So Cork was more tolerant than Limerick.( Well after Independence a Soviet was declared in the Village of Hospital:D)

And Briscoe -if I remember correctly went to the Christian Brothers.So yes he was" integrated."

I am trying to keep on track with the tread and the question did the WWI soldiers think they were fighting for democracy etc. Even Tom Barry was a veteran of WWI.

So in this situation how did the democracy match up to expectations or did it.Don't forget you also had Civil War prejudice come into play for years. Wasnt WT Cosgrave a Bolands Mills guy?So did it create a blueprint for adversorial politics?

EDIT:So lost between the facts is empathy for individuals and consequences.Thats where Murphy and Ryan miss out for me. Harte may have exposed a hole but sorry that hole would not be there except for the vision of history being taught.

From a Boundary Commision perspective cant you see that whatever the goodwill of the treaty negotiations these actions put the kibosh on it.

Well could you tell me why Protestants like Sam MaGuire and others ( a Cork man BTW ) remained in the IRA if there was such wide spread secterian attacks on Protestants by the IRA throughout the country and especailly in Cork. It just doesn't add up does it ?

CDfm · 17-04-2010 8:32pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Well could you tell me why Protestants like Sam MaGuire and others ( a Cork man BTW ) remained in the IRA if there was such wide spread secterian attacks on Protestants by the IRA throughout the country and especailly in Cork. It just doesn't add up does it ?

AFAIK Sam Maguire lived in London and worked in the Civil Service and when he returned to Ireland it was to Dublin. He was a close associate of Michael Collins and his speciality was intelligence and is remembered more for his GAA work and was Pro-Treaty.He died of TB in 1927.

I dont know if his thoughts on the matter were ever recorded.He certainly did not live in Cork and was not in active service there.

walrusgumble · 17-04-2010 9:27pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

CDfm wrote: »

AFAIK Sam Maguire lived in London and worked in the Civil Service and when he returned to Ireland it was to Dublin. He was a close associate of Michael Collins and his speciality was intelligence and is remembered more for his GAA work and was Pro-Treaty.He died of TB in 1927.

I dont know if his thoughts on the matter were ever recorded.He certainly did not live in Cork and was not in active service there.

he also was meant to have died a bit penniless and unknown naationally until he died)

there is of course the more famous Protestant IRA men like Erskine Childers Snr who funny enough dealt with propaganda and George Gilmore (neither based in Cork of course)

On a seperate note - Ivor Bell of the PIRA was a Protestant (why I put that in?)

http://reform.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=30

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/unrolling-corks-historical-tapestry-1490273.html

CDfm · 17-04-2010 10:35pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

didnt i see somewhere that his family largely emigrated and the farmhouse is derelict.

Casements family were hardly hardline nationalists either.

of his family this is from the www.sammaguirehomestead.ie

Sam himself grew in adulthood to be a tall, slim, broad shouldered man of a gentle nature. Sam had four brothers and two sisters. Willie was the eldest then Mary, Jack, Dick, Paul, Sam and Elizabeth. Willie never married and stayed at home to farm the land. Mary known locally as Moll also did not marry and stayed at home and so did Elizabeth. However, Jack and Dick both went to England and worked in London with Sam. Paul on the other hand married a local girl by the name of Hurley from Inchareagh north of the town. However she was a Catholic and so they emigrated to America. In the early 1970's their son a Catholic priest visited the old homestead

so 3 of his 4 brothers emigrated. neither his older brother or 2 sisters who remained ever married and stayed on. After the deaths of two of them Moll the survivor had to be persuaded to move out of the near derelect house as she was starving and in danger of freezing.

SlabMurphy · 18-04-2010 12:25pm

CDfm wrote: »

AFAIK Sam Maguire lived in London and worked in the Civil Service and when he returned to Ireland it was to Dublin. He was a close associate of Michael Collins and his speciality was intelligence and is remembered more for his GAA work and was Pro-Treaty.He died of TB in 1927.

I dont know if his thoughts on the matter were ever recorded.He certainly did not live in Cork and was not in active service there.

I researched a bit on Sam Maguire and he actually was from Dunmanway. So are you going to tell me that he, an intelligence officer in the IRA at that, would not have been aware of indiscriminate attacks on his own co religionists through letters etc with his family and friends in his home town !!! He returned to Dublin in 1921 and was in the Irish civil service, but because of his political opinions he quickly clashed with his superiors and was dismissed. As someone has already said, your objective has been to give a rumour legitimacy and make it into ' proof ' of a Protestant Holocaust :rolleyes: when nothing of the sort occured.

And besides, as some has mentioned there were other Protestants such as Erskine Childers etc who remained active in the IRA into the Civil War.

SlabMurphy · 18-04-2010 12:39pm

CDfm wrote: »

didnt i see somewhere that his family largely emigrated and the farmhouse is derelict.

Casements family were hardly hardline nationalists either.

of his family this is from the www.sammaguirehomestead.ie

so 3 of his 4 brothers emigrated. neither his older brother or 2 sisters who remained ever married and stayed on. After the deaths of two of them Moll the survivor had to be persuaded to move out of the near derelect house as she was starving and in danger of freezing.

My Grandfather had 6 brothers and 1 sister. 5 of his brothers went to America, one was killed in a building site accident in Ireland and the sister died young. Should I conclude that they also were victims of been forced out of the country ? It wasn't unusual back then for an entire family to emigrate to America in what was called chain migration back then with the oldest brother remaining on the farm ( one would go first especially if they had a trade or qualification and set down a foundation for the others to come over in ones and twos).

As for the shameful poor conditions the Maguire family suffered, many Republicans were forced to immigrate to America by the vindictiveness of the Free State and Gombeen men who ran the place including such as Dan Breen, Sean Hogan, Ernie O'Malley etc. I would recommend anyone to read Dan Breen and the IRA by Joe Ambrose to get an insight into the vindictivenss of Cosgrove and co. to thier former comrades and friends post Civil War until the 30's.

CDfm · 18-04-2010 3:47pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

Its easy to speculate but what we do know that Sam Maguire was not active in Cork butb in London and when he left there he turned up in Dublin and lost his Civil Service job there too.

Things dont seem to have worked out well for him and his family who were reasonably prosperous before Independence.Independence did not stem emigration then.May even have increased it. So who was liberated then -not the emigrants.

I havent said Protestant Halocaust and may have used the term Pogrom which it has similarities to. The Dunmanway Massacre was every bit like Bloody Sunday.

If anything by referencing Cosgrave and co's vindictiveness you are supporting what I am saying.

SlabMurphy · 19-04-2010 12:50pm

CDfm wrote: »

Its easy to speculate but what we do know that Sam Maguire was not active in Cork butb in London and when he left there he turned up in Dublin and lost his Civil Service job there too.

Things dont seem to have worked out well for him and his family who were reasonably prosperous before Independence.Independence did not stem emigration then.May even have increased it. So who was liberated then -not the emigrants.

I havent said Protestant Halocaust and may have used the term Pogrom which it has similarities to. The Dunmanway Massacre was every bit like Bloody Sunday.

If anything by referencing Cosgrave and co's vindictiveness you are supporting what I am saying.

No I don't think it is " Its easy to speculate " It's clearly illogical that Sam Maguire and other Protestants would remian in the IRA if their was pogroms against their co religionists in Cork and around the country.

As for Cosgrove and co's vindictiveness, I was pointing out that it was directed at their former comrades and friends on the Republican side. On the unionist side, Cosgrove and co. had no issues about welcoming the Trinity unionists, Castle Catholics and other assortment of quislings and parasites into their party and administration.

CDfm · 19-04-2010 1:11pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

SlabMurphy wrote: »

No I don't think it is " Its easy to speculate " It's clearly illogical that Sam Maguire and other Protestants would remian in the IRA if their was pogroms against their co religionists in Cork and around the country.

like who & what was their number - Erskine Childers and Constance Markewicz are the only other ones I can name off hand.

Maguire was hardly in the same social class as them.

And Maguire was an associate and friend of Collins and recruited Collins to the IRB.

What comments did they make on the Dunmanway massacre etc??

other assortment of quislings and parasites into their party and administration.

i didnt think you had quislings until after WWII

Hugo Drax · 19-04-2010 1:25pm

Rebelheart wrote: »

So said one of the guests on Sam Smyth's Sunday Supplement yesterday. The guest in question was using the name Elaine Byrne, which obviously couldn't be her real name when she's coming out with that.

Or could it?

Go to 54.10 here: 'I think there's a place to commemorate those who died for European freedom'

Anyway, does anybody here actually agree with her view? If so, I genuinely want to know its rational basis.

It's hard to take the British Empire seriously as a champion of freedom since it's entire raison d'etre was to deny freedom and self determination to the constituent peoples of said empire...

It's very difficult to condense the reasons for WW1 into a few paragraphs..

But anyhow freedom had nothing to do with it....

It started because,

1 - Franz Ferdinand assassinated in Belgrade
2 - Austro Hungarian empire determined to make war on Serbia to punish them for this.
3 - Russian Empire was obliged by treaty to defend Serbia in the event of war.
4 - German Empire was obliged to support Austria-Hungary in event of war.
5 - France was obliged to support Russia in event of war.
6 - UK was obliged to support France in event of war.

So this one relatively minor event sufficed to drag all the major European powers into a ruinous war.

It was commenced by an assassination.

The canard that the war was fought to free small countries like Belgium was merely a propaganda sop to the uneducated ENglish masses to get them to support the war.

In 1914 the great European powers resembled mountaineers tied to one another climbing a mountain - if one had a mishap it would inevitably drag all the others in.

SlabMurphy · 19-04-2010 1:40pm

CDfm wrote: »

like who & what was their number - Erskine Childers and Constance Markewicz are the only other ones I can name off hand.

Maguire was hardly in the same social class as them.

And Maguire was an associate and friend of Collins and recruited Collins to the IRB.

What comments did they make on the Dunmanway massacre etc??

Well I don't carry the names of Protestant IRA volunteers around in my head. I would say it would be a hard task to discern as membership of the IRA was not based on religion. I have yet to read of accounts of the IRA from Tom Barry, Ernie O'Malley, Dan Breen etc them been in the slighest concerned about a man's religion. If he was in the IRA he was a good Irishman whether he was Catholic, Protestant or Dissenter alike.

i didnt think you had quislings until after WWII

:rolleyes:

Hugo Drax · 19-04-2010 1:48pm

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Well I don't carry the names of Protestant IRA volunteers around in my head. I would say it would be a hard task to discern as membership of the IRA was not based on religion. I have yet to read of accounts of the IRA from Tom Barry, Ernie O'Malley, Dan Breen etc them been in the slighest concerned about a man's religion. If he was in the IRA he was a good Irishman whether he was Catholic, Protestant or Dissenter alike.

:rolleyes:

Well let's remember that the entire Irish enlightenment republican tradition from whom the IRA of that period descend was started by Irish protestant patriots like

Wolfe Tone,
Napper Tandy,
Emmet,
Lord Edward Fitzgerald
etc.
etc.

CDfm · 19-04-2010 5:00pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

Hugo Drax wrote: »

Well let's remember that the entire Irish enlightenment republican tradition from whom the IRA of that period descend was started by Irish protestant patriots like

That was a different era.

Somewhere in the mix between the IRB and the Irish Volunteers & the IRA something changed and it became sectarian.

Just because someone is in the IRA it does not follow that the person is a good Irishman.

You also don't have an account if who ordered the Dunmanway Massacre and no one was held to account for it.

How can Bloody Sunday be wrong and it not be?

Exile 1798 · 19-04-2010 5:30pm

CDfm wrote: »

That was a different era.

Somewhere in the mix between the IRB and the Irish Volunteers & the IRA something changed and it became sectarian.

Just because someone is in the IRA it does not follow that the person is a good Irishman.

You also don't have an account if who ordered the Dunmanway Massacre and no one was held to account for it.

How can Bloody Sunday be wrong and it not be?

You don't know why the Dunmanway killings occurred. Of all the possibilities you have decided to settle on a sectarian motivation... you should stop talking about the event as if the question was settled.

Another example in this thread you cited as "murder" of "sectarian" nature was the case of an IRA unit approaching a Protestant house and ordering the the occupants to hand over the keys of their car. The occupants refused and shot dead one of the Volunteers. The IRA returned later and executed the killer.

If this is what passes as murder in your view then I'm likely to dismiss any other claims of "murder" you make.

walrusgumble · 19-04-2010 5:34pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

CDfm wrote: »

That was a different era.

Somewhere in the mix between the IRB and the Irish Volunteers & the IRA something changed and it became sectarian.

Just because someone is in the IRA it does not follow that the person is a good Irishman.

You also don't have an account if who ordered the Dunmanway Massacre and no one was held to account for it.

How can Bloody Sunday be wrong and it not be?

Simply responding to the Unionists/Orange Order sectarian attacks? (ie Wolfe Tone and that era) Or what about the attacks in the Belfast ship yards? Catholics being prevented from taking up jobs (ie 1920's) When we go a look at them {Unionist/ORange Order}we get acccused of "whataboutery" or shut out.:rolleyes:

Interestingly, did the British every try and follow up on the Dunmanway Massacre? Or did they know something that you don't?

CDfm · 19-04-2010 5:53pm

Anybody who fought with the British Empire anywhere fought for freedom

Exile 1798 wrote: »

You don't know why the Dunmanway killings occurred. Of all the possibilities you have decided to settle on a sectarian motivation... you should stop talking about the event as if the question was settled.

But the killings were condemned by the Leaders of both the Pro and Anti Treaty sides which would indicate to me that there was less to it other than what I am saying.

Another example in this thread you cited as "murder" of "sectarian" nature was the case of an IRA unit approaching a Protestant house and ordering the the occupants to hand over the keys of their car. The occupants refused and shot dead one of the Volunteers. The IRA returned later and executed the killer.

If this is what passes as murder in your view then I'm likely to dismiss any other claims of "murder" you make.

It does as does Bloody Sunday.If I accept one is justified I have to accept the other.

walrusgumble wrote: »

Simply responding to the Unionists/Orange Order sectarian attacks? (ie Wolfe Tone and that era) Or what about the attacks in the Belfast ship yards? Catholics being prevented from taking up jobs (ie 1920's) When we go a look at them {Unionist/ORange Order}we get acccused of "whataboutery" or shut out.:rolleyes:

Interestingly, did the British every try and follow up on the Dunmanway Massacre? Or did they know something that you don't?

The IRA had de facto control of West Cork. I am not condoning what happened in the North and the attacks on Catholic workers.

I have no problem say it was wrong even though my Grandfather was part of the West Cork Brigade. I know that many of his colleagues disagreed with it.

Irishmen who fought for the British Empire in WW1 fought for 'European freedom'

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