Handgun licences granted after legal appeal

EPD

Handgun licences granted after legal appeal
Friday February 12 2010
A district court judge yesterday overturned a refusal by a garda chief superintendent to grant a certificate for six handguns to a father and son for their target-shooting hobby.
The chief superintendent had said the guns were not suitable for target practice and it was his view civilians should never be allowed them as they could be the target of kidnappings by criminal elements who wanted to get their hands on semi-automatic weapons normally used by police forces.
However, ordnance expert Seamus O'Dromma, a witness for the father and son, said the weapons were modified to improve the accuracy of their fire and so were designed for target shooting.
He said the guns were specifically designed for target shooting and were not military and police weapons.
Paddy O'Mahony (70) of Ballyraemeen, Castlemaine, Co. Kerry, retired from the Army, and a licensed dealer in firearms, appealed against the refusal of Kerry Garda Supt John Kerin, to allow him a firearms certificate to license a .22 Colt pistol, a .45 colt revolver, and a 7.63mm Mauser pistol, as well as a .45 colt 1911 Gold cup pistol.
His son Patrick O'Mahony, of the same address, appealed against Supt Kerin's refusal to grant a certificate for a 9mm Browning pistol and a .41 Smith and Wesson Revolver .
Both men told the court target they needed handguns of that calibre to compete in international competitions such as the WA 1500 Association, and the higher score Bulls Eye competition.
Both men had undergone training and had training certificates for the weapons. No question had ever been raised about their character.
Judge James O'Connor allowed the appeals, but in the case of the Mauser pistol amended the terms so that it could be used only three times a year.
Killorglin District Court heard how the weapons were modified for static target shooting.
However Detective Inspector Kevin Brooks, head of garda ballistics school, said the hand guns were "fundamentally police combat guns" used by the military or the police because of their proven killing power.
Supt John Kerin said new legislation introduced in 2009 meant good character was no longer enough to be allowed hold a license for powerful, high-calibre, semi-automatic hand guns.
Reason
There had to be good reason to possess them, he told Supt Michael O'Donovan, who was questioning.
The Criminal Justice Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2009 had imposed extra conditions including good and sufficient reason to possess handguns of high calibre, and that the firearm must be appropriate for its intended use, he told the court.
"Different chief superintendents have different views. My point is these guns are to kill people and to defend people," he added.
"There should be no guns of this type in the hands of civilians. I don't believe target shooting is a good and sufficient reason."
However, Mr O'Dromma said the weapons were designed for target shooting.
- Anne Lucey
Irish Independent

dresden8

I see the Indo took extra care to publish their names and address.

Scum.

Cass

These announcments and others of a similar nature are all in the "press clippings" thread. Worth a read to keep up on whats going on.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055427695&page=10

buckasssailor

was talking to the range owner and he said we might be able to keep the pistol because of that case but there is another one coming up

EPD

buckasssailor wrote: »

was talking to the range owner and he said we might be able to keep the pistol because of that case but there is another one coming up

I just found out that when you are refused your hand gun you only have 30 days to appeal it,i dident appeal mine i managed to get it into storage what's the story now its been months since i was refused (caught by the balls again)

rrpc

EPD wrote: »

I just found out that when you are refused your hand gun you only have 30 days to appeal it,i dident appeal mine i managed to get it into storage what's the story now its been months since i was refused (caught by the balls again)

Apply again.

EPD

There was a shooting day in the Hilltop range yesterday and continuing today pistol Sooting .22 and full bore and apparently there are a lot of guys shooting full bore and it appears that if you live in the Wicklow area there is no problem getting your full bore pistol renewed.
What the f**c is going on what's good for one man is good enough for another,am i been discriminated against,I tough everyone person in this country was equal,are my constitutional rights been infringed upon,are we living in a police state now, im beginning to hate my country and to think my grandfathers blood was spilled defending this country im sure he and many more are spinning in there graves looking at the way the people of this country are been treated it would appear we traded one oppressive shower of Bas***ds for another.IM PI**ED OFF
EPD..........

TargetWidow

dresden8 wrote: »

I see the Indo took extra care to publish their names and address.

Scum.

Judge O'Connor has yet to grasp the subtleties of security of firearms. In a recent case which was conceded the applicant asked this judge to make an order restricting reporting the details of the case in the media in the interests of security of the applicants firearms. The judge replied "Ah now Mr X, you have got your gun, now you are looking for jam and jam up on it, thats just the risk you take if you have these things in your house."

The applicant in question then made a statement to the press in the courtroom outlining that they owed him a duty of care not to put him in dangers way by revealing any of his details. Judge Patwell on the other hand has a much better grasp of the fact that actually scumbags won't know you have these "things in your house" unless you put it in the bloody papers for them to read!:mad:

You would almost imagine that it was intentionally designed to put a person off the idea of appealing to the DC. If you were that way inclined.;)

Sparks

TargetWidow wrote: »

If you were that way inclined.;)

Or if you remember statements by senior members of the Gardai from a year or two back...

Bananaman

EPD wrote: »

There was a shooting day in the Hilltop range yesterday and continuing today pistol Sooting .22 and full bore and apparently there are a lot of guys shooting full bore and it appears that if you live in the Wicklow area there is no problem getting your full bore pistol renewed........

Not necessarily true - plenty of people in Wicklow have been refused permission to re-license their firearms - handguns, rifles and shotguns - same as most other districts.

At the NASRPC Fundraiser in Hilltop there were over 100 competitors from all over the country - taking part in 9 different disciplines - including Rifle, Shotgun and Handgun.

Indeed, Hilltop itself has members from all over the country - I'm a very active member and I live in Kildare.

There were people at the match from clubs all over the country from Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Limerick, Mayo, Sligo, Donegal, Cavan, Kildare, Louth, Laois, Dublin to name but a few.

Obviously not all of them took part in all disciplines but I think they were happy to get out and take part in any disciplines, have a bit of craic, talk to people from other pats of the country, see what is happening around the country and do their part to enable the NASRPC to act on their behalf.

There was also an amazing turnout for the Function on the Saturday night with plenty of lads from all over the Country raising a glass and discussing the legal situation and what is being done and what can be done. I'm sure a few lies were told about perfect scores aswell ;-)

There was a legal Seminar held the previous week where the legal situation and options were discussed.

All very constructive and I for one came out of all of it feeling quite optimistic - it wont be painless but we have right on our side - we have done nothing wrong.

A Full match report was included in the NASRPC February Newsletter

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

Not necessarily true - plenty of people in Wicklow have been refused permission to re-license their firearms - handguns, rifles and shotguns - same as most other districts.

Is this some sort of negative one-upmanship?

"When I were a lad..."

From what I can ascertain (and this is purely anecdotal), the Chief Superintendent for Wicklow is carrying out his duties under the Firearms Acts in an exemplary manner. Most people I've spoken to have characterised him as being "tough but fair". In other words, he's taking the trouble to talk to the applicants and properly consider the applications.

Bananaman

Not at all - Just pointing out that Wicklow is not exempt from the current debacle.

There is more than one Chief Superintendent in Wicklow - I am not sure of who deals with who but I know people - who use their firearms regularly and safely - and hence should have been relicensed - but who have been refused in Co. Wicklow.

That being said I also know people have have been re-licensed in Co. Wicklow so it is not the worst county to be in.

No matter where you live - although it seems to be the primary deciding factor - it is no fun to be facing the court system and the appeals process.

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

Not at all - Just pointing out that Wicklow is not exempt from the current debacle.

There is more than one Chief Superintendent in Wicklow

I don't think so. County Wicklow is one division in the new structure and AFAIK, there's only one CS over the division; based in Bray.

Bananaman

Well - in that case - he/she has refused their fair share.

B'Man

Bananaman

In fact just heard of another license refused in Wicklow

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

In fact just heard of another license refused in Wicklow

B'Man

I also have heard of refusals in Wicklow, I've also heard that the individuals concerned hadn't set foot inside a club in their (short) careers as pistol shooters.

Good luck to them :rolleyes:

Oh, and well done to that CS for weeding them out.

Bananaman

I don't know anyone who owns a pistol who does not attend a range regularly so cannot comment on that.

All of the people that I know who have been refused, regardless of location, should not have been.

The latest guy I heard to be refused in Wicklow was my RO the first day I shot pistol all those many moons ago - same guy has taken at least one medal in Rathdrum and plenty more elsewhere.

Don't believe the hype.

B'Man

rowa

The chief super in south dublin is now seemingly going out of his way to refuse to licence pistols that are actually on the unrestricted list , how the applications got to his desk in the first place, when they should have been dealt with by the local superintendent is another question.

The gun in question belongs to a friend and is a s+w 617 revolver, the local fo inquired with the firearms policy unit to ask if the gun was on the approved list and was told that the gun was on the list "but was restricted really".

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

I don't know anyone who owns a pistol who does not attend a range regularly so cannot comment on that.

You're not likely to know everyone who owns a pistol everywhere in the country. Especially those who haven't set foot on a range.

Don't believe the hype.

I don't. I do know we have had many enquiries about membership from people who have never been heard of anywhere, and in fact readily admit they've never set foot in a club, but 'need it for their application'. :rolleyes:

Hype it aint.

Edit: I'll go a bit further and describe the typical conversation that ensues. CO is club officer and PM is prospective member...

CO: Hello?
PM: Hello, I'm interested in joining your club.
CO: Excellent, what sort of shooting were you interested in?
PM: Oh, a bit of pistol shooting really...
CO: And do you have a pistol, or are you hoping to apply for one?
PM: I have one, it's a 44 revolver. (we've also had .357, 9mm, 38 special etc.)
CO: I'm afraid we're only authorised for rimfire, you know .22 and airguns.
PM: Oh that doesn't matter, I won't be using it there at all, sure it's just for the licence...

:rolleyes:

dCorbus

hey rrpc

Call me naive, but are you seriously telling us you've actually been party to such conversations?:eek: - I don't know, maybe I'm simple or sheltered or both, but I find it hard to believe a "prospective member" would be that dumb!:rolleyes:

Or maybe I just credit folks with way too much commonsense, intelligence, and alround general cop-on.;):o

IRLConor

dCorbus wrote: »

hey rrpc

Call me naive, but are you seriously telling us you've actually been party to such conversations?:eek: - I don't know, maybe I'm simple or sheltered or both, but I find it hard to believe a "prospective member" would be that dumb!:rolleyes:

Or maybe I just credit folks with way too much commonsense, intelligence, and alround general cop-on.;):o

The only thing that is in unlimited supply is stupidity. Man or woman, rich or poor, young or old, no matter which way you slice it there'll be an ample supply of idiots.

Come by the DURC stand during Freshers Week next year and listen to some of the crazy things people will suggest or admit to have done. Don't worry, you won't have to wait long!

dCorbus

Come by the DURC stand during Freshers Week next year and listen to some of the crazy things people will suggest or admit to have done.

Hey irlconor, no need to get personal, mate!

I didn't mean it - I just wanted to shoot stuff, I thought my questions were all perfectly reasonable. Ok the tactical vest and my balaclava with night-vision goggles may have been a bit OTT, but how was I to know the DURC committee frowned on such non-issf shooting attire?

sheesh, give a guy a break. I was only asking some questions!

:D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

jamesomara

Kudos to the Gardai. Excellent idea - let's post the names of those pesky gun owners and let all of the criminals know where to go when they need to rob someone for guns.

rrpc

dCorbus wrote: »

hey rrpc

Call me naive, but are you seriously telling us you've actually been party to such conversations?:eek: - I don't know, maybe I'm simple or sheltered or both, but I find it hard to believe a "prospective member" would be that dumb!:rolleyes:

Or maybe I just credit folks with way too much commonsense, intelligence, and alround general cop-on.;):o

Yes, you're athropomorphising

And some have got quite belligerent when told where to go...

Bananaman

Well maybe you are getting a lot of loons turning up trying to join your club - again not something I have been party to so cannot comment.

I am sure - although I have no experience of same - that you will get individuals looking for club memberships when they had allowed theres to lapse over the years now that it is a legal requirement that they be a member of a club.

But back to my point - I am speaking of individuals who are club members, have been for many years, have been regular range attendees and indeed may have taken part in competitions be it in their club, inter club or higher.

These are the only people I know who shoot pistol and I have seen the majority of them, nationwide, refused re-licensing of their firearms.

At a guess I would say these individuals only number in the few hundred which allows for ~1000 of the types you speak of - which I assume have all been culled by now.

The trouble is they seem to have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

B'Man

bunny shooter

Those who were members of clubs and let it lapse are a lot of the reason we are in the ****e now :mad:

I hope THET get what THEY deserve

Bananaman

Sure but do not tar everyone who has been refused with that brush.

All I was saying is that there have been plenty of unlawful refusals in Wicklow, because another poster seemed to think there were not, due to the high numbers of competitors in Hilltop.

There were a high number of competitors at Hilltop because Hilltop has members all over the country and others traveled from other clubs all over the country to be there.

:splithair

B'Man

syklops

Can someone explain this bit to me:

Judge James O'Connor allowed the appeals, but in the case of the Mauser pistol amended the terms so that it could be used only three times a year.

If safety is the issue, then why can they only fire the Mauser 3 times a year?

It makes no sense to me.

rowa

syklops wrote: »

Can someone explain this bit to me:



If safety is the issue, then why can they only fire the Mauser 3 times a year?

It makes no sense to me.

maybe its to do with the reason the licence for the pistol was asked for , he might have sought a licence for the mauser because it was a collectors item , so the judge gave him it with preconditions.