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Speedy Gonzales or Slowpoke Rodriguez?

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  • Week 25-31 July cont.

    Sun 7x(5'+1') 1min rest between short and long rep. 3' between sets.
    Long reps on undulations. Short rep uphill. Last set was all flat
    Weekly dist. 130-140 km

    Week 1-7 August

    Session 1:
    65 min AT on undulating/hilly ground

    Session 2: 4x((3x3)+1')1' between reps within each set, 3' between sets, on undulating/hilly ground

    Weekly dist: 130_140 km

    Week 8-14 August ongoing

    Session 1

    12 x 400 off 1' grass track

    Reduced weekly volume-recovery week




  • Hi Demfad,

    I have a couple of questions on the Warriors run if you don't mind. How does it compare to some of the IMRA Leinster league races, any ones that are similar in terms of the climbing involved? I'm a 150% - 160% finisher normally so I know I will probably struggle in this! My normal training run is from Kilmashouge to Fairy Castle (taking in the final climb from the WW twice), I presume the climbing is harder in the Warriors run?

    Thanks.




  • AdpRo wrote: »
    Hi Demfad,

    I have a couple of questions on the Warriors run if you don't mind. How does it compare to some of the IMRA Leinster league races, any ones that are similar in terms of the climbing involved? I'm a 150% - 160% finisher normally so I know I will probably struggle in this! My normal training run is from Kilmashouge to Fairy Castle (taking in the final climb from the WW twice), I presume the climbing is harder in the Warriors run?

    Thanks.

    Hi Ardbo. No problem.

    Course: There is 2km of offroad climbing in WR. First Km has a few steep sections. One in particular has a gradient of around 30%. So there is a fair bit of hiking. The second km is a lot more runnable with a horrible little climb (hiked) that leaves you with a 300m run to the summit cairn.
    Off-road climb will take you about 22-4 mins. off-road Descent will take you about 7-8.
    In the race profile you'll see that there is a road climb that leads to the offroad. and a road descent after the offroad.
    So for yourself the sections might pan out like this:
    Undulating road: 16-18 mins.
    Climb starts: 28-30 mins (tarmac 6, offroad 23)
    Descent starts 8-9 mins (offroad 7, tarmac 2)
    Road back to Strandhill: 30-35

    That's just a rough guide to help with a training run.

    The difference is the road. So in the WR unlike LL you will have 22 mins of tough undulating road running in the legs before starting the offroad climb. And also there is

    Training run suggestion: I'm hoping to do a training run based on the hellfire steep climb this Thursday:

    Marlay Park across to military road via mount venus road at a pace to make you tired (careful with traffic) . Up up and up to Hellfire club. Youll have to hike the steep path up but thats what is needed. Descent down and through Masseys (practice recovering while descending). Then a few intervals on the road. e.g 2-3 mins on, 1 min off (repeat). This last bit is almost like a triathlon brick. Teaching you to get back to road running with the mountain in your legs. Better to do this once before the day. Id be aiming to run in total about 75% of race time.

    Overall youre training has given you a great platform for the race. But one run as above where its very steep and youre getting all the elements in will really help.

    Race pacing:

    First km is half flat followed by 500 metres of climbing.
    It is hugely important to not be tempted to burn up this climb.
    Aim to be fresh at the top. Very controlled first km. Nice fast section next where youll naturally start to pass runners (having paced the first hill correectly). Then a downhill back to sea level. My advice would be to slighly work the downhills and slightly hold back on the uphills. Just ride the undulations so to speak. The race is a test of strenght primarily. You'll need it for later. When you start the main climb start at an effort you can sustain.
    Once it goes off road youll have 5 mins of work before it gets narrow. Pass pass pass here. Otherwise youll get frustrated stuck begind slower runenrs. Recover if youre slowed and then you can push on when it opens up. Take recovery where ever you can. Its intense but youll be used to it. You know the craic, keep moving forward.
    First half of the descent is steep second half is on roacky path, not so steep.
    You'll do well there. Fast but controlled bearing in mind the 6-7k of road left after.
    Road back: It will get tough half way back. Again use thed escents to keep the effort even. When it gets tough, try and keep pushing. The sceneray changes with two km to go and it gets (relatively) easier before fatigue really sets in. Last km is the first in reverse. Steep descent, follwed by flat.
    Its a great finish with huge crowds.

    Fire away with any questions arising from this.

    Im hopefully planning to do the run i mentioned on Thursday evening. More than welcome to come along. Just PM.

    Edit: Search Strava activities for Warriors run for about 90 minute finishes:
    Heres one
    Old results here
    Click a runner to see their splits (intermediate mats at off-road start and finish)




  • Week 8-14 August concluded

    Friday:
    2 x 5 x 35s off jog recovery

    Felt some speed kick in. Good mini session

    Sunday: Duleek 10k 3rd 34.01

    Report:

    Good to warmup with Paulieyifter from these parts. We got a good warmup in, a few strides and jogged out the road for the off.
    Quadrangular circuit. Good quality main road for first 2.5k climbing a bit. Right tuen onto Undulating back road till 5k. Right again and onto better road down and climbing up to high point at 7km. 2.5km down to right turn for final 500m into finish gantry at Race HQ.

    I had researched a bit who might be there so I wouldnt have to decide who to go with/pace off on the fly, or atleast my decision might be easier.
    I saw Simon R from Raheny and Brian mcC from NE runners. Not ideal as on road form they would be faster than me. I felt i would be a bit faster than anyone else though..
    As a development race i wanted an even or progressive effort. On the other hand its a race and you never know...
    Race starts and I go with the two lads. After a Km im thinking the pace is slightly fast for me albeit sustainable short-medium term. There is a hill at 2km effort neither increases or decreases for me. First descent coming up. I think recover here. I do and it feels easy, good sign. Up again and its getting tougher. Brian is burning out a steady relentless effort. I feel Simon may be feeling it too just ahead of me and when he fals slightly off the pace I decide to pass and latch onto Brian. Simon stays although falls off during the next climb. There is a hill up to 5km followed by a descent. The intensity isnt sustainable but Im just concentrating on making the hill summit. I do but the effort was pretty high and Im fighting to maintain contact during the descent. Dissappointingly he drifts away and I'm a little too quick to settle down a full gear. The gap incessantly widens and after a while I look back to discover Simon is about to mkae contact. He passes on the far side of the road to make it harder and being honest ive already settled for third place.
    Rest of the race was a slow drift back a runner from behind was closing smelling blood, but the fade was more mental than physical and I was able to comfortably up it to hold him off for 3rd.
    Fitness is getting there if road race performances arent. It wil come together soon.
    Brian won in 32:38, Simon in 33:27. Very indifferent performance, but I knew that this was a possibility if I got burned by a fast pace.
    At the pace I ran the first 5km I could have held on for 2km more, maybe.
    Thats encouraging on a tough course as I think Brian ran even effort/pace throughout. I couldnt have won yesterday but I'm annoyed I didnt try something. Taking the lead on the back road and forcing fast descents/slow climbs would have helped my cause a little forcing the lads to run to my relative strenghts.
    I wasnt feeling great during the week, slight cold symptoms but it would have been nice to try something at least before conceding. Easy win for Brian and easy second for Simon. Anyway, the hard effort will stand to me.
    Paulie had a very solid outing , surpassing his pre-prediction and putting him in good stead ahead of the Longford marathon in 2 weeks.

    It really is a good tough 10km. Very well organised and worth a trip if looking for a solid race. Free massage after was great. Nosh was super.
    I cryogenically froze my diet (as I always do) to get stuck in.

    Best of all was a kids race after which my daughter (5) and son (almost 3)
    could run in and each got goodie bags and medals. All these activities contained within a big pitch. Family friendly races: every race should be.

    The day finished off with a final family race around the pitch.
    I told my daughter that it was a long race and she should go out slow. "Is that what you should have done Daddy?" was her too straight reply.




  • demfad wrote: »
    Hi Ardbo. No problem.

    Course: There is 2km of offroad climbing in WR. First Km has a few steep sections. One in particular has a gradient of around 30%. So there is a fair bit of hiking. The second km is a lot more runnable with a horrible little climb (hiked) that leaves you with a 300m run to the summit cairn.
    Off-road climb will take you about 22-4 mins. off-road Descent will take you about 7-8.
    In the race profile you'll see that there is a road climb that leaves to the offroad. and a road descent after the offroad.
    So for yourself the sections might pan out like this:
    Undulating road: 16-18 mins.
    Climb starts: 28-30 mins (tarmac 6, offroad 23)
    Descent starts 8-9 mins (offroad 7, tarmac 2)
    Road back to Strandhill: 30-35

    That's just a rough guide to help with a training run.

    The difference is the road. So in the WR unlike LL you will have 22 mins of tough undulating road running in the legs before starting the offroad climb. And also there is

    Training run suggestion: I'm hoping to do a training run based on the hellfire steep climb this Thursday:

    Marlay Park across to military road via mount venus road at a pace to make you tired (careful with traffic) . Up up and up to Hellfire club. Youll have to hike the steep path up but thats what is needed. Descent down and through Masseys (practice recovering while descending). Then a few intervals on the road. e.g 2-3 mins on, 1 min off (repeat). This last bit is almost like a triathlon brick. Teaching you to get back to road running with the mountain in your legs. Better to do this once before the day. Id be aiming to run in total about 75% of race time.

    Overall youre training has given you a great platform for the race. But one run as above where its very steep and youre getting all the elements in will really help.

    Race pacing:

    First km is half flat followed by 500 metres of climbing.
    It is hugely important to not be tempted to burn up this climb.
    Aim to be fresh at the top. Very controlled first km. Nice fast section next where youll naturally start to pass runners (having paced the first hill correectly). Then a downhill back to sea level. My advice would be to slighly work the downhills and slightly hold back on the uphills. Just ride the undulations so to speak. The race is a test of strenght primarily. You'll need it for later. When you start the main climb start at an effort you can sustain.
    Once it goes off road youll have 5 mins of work before it gets narrow. Pass pass pass here. Otherwise youll get frustrated stuck begind slower runenrs. Recover if youre slowed and then you can push on when it opens up. Take recovery where ever you can. Its intense but youll be used to it. You know the craic, keep moving forward.
    First half of the descent is steep second half is on roacky path, not so steep.
    You'll do well there. Fast but controlled bearing in mind the 6-7k of road left after.
    Road back: It will get tough half way back. Again use thed escents to keep the effort even. When it gets tough, try and keep pushing. The sceneray changes with two km to go and it gets (relatively) easier before fatigue really sets in. Last km is the first in reverse. Steep descent, follwed by flat.
    Its a great finish with huge crowds.

    Fire away with any questions arising from this.

    Im hopefully planning to do the run i mentioned on Thursday evening. More than welcome to come along. Just PM.

    Edit: Search Strava activities for Warriors run for about 90 minute finishes:
    Heres one
    Old results here
    Click a runner to see their splits (intermediate mats at off-road start and finish)

    Thanks a million for that, absolutely super information. I might try that training run next weekend (thanks for the offer but won't be able to make Thursday).

    I actually thought there was more off road to it, I take it road runners rather than trails is the way to go?


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  • AdpRo wrote: »
    Thanks a million for that, absolutely super information. I might try that training run next weekend (thanks for the offer but won't be able to make Thursday).

    I actually thought there was more off road to it, I take it road runners rather than trails is the way to go?

    Yes. Something with a little grip if possible. Also need just a little cushioning for the lower descent path as there are small stones that can hurt the soles of the feet. You can wear racers, just not the ultra lite ones.

    I'm going with Adidas adios 3 boost this year.

    Last years winner wore light weight saloman trail shoes.
    The road is the priority, as you'll be used to descending anyway. Just nothing with zero grip incase its wet ans a little cushioning needed so you dont feel the stones lower down.

    Good luck with the training run. And I might bump into you down there.

    Its a great race. If you ever did a road race and wished that someone would plonk a bit of gnarly mountain in the middle of it to help your cause, well this is it!




  • Well done again T. Nice chatting with you on Sunday.

    Have to agree with the idea of the family and kids friendly races - there was a great atmosphere at the race. My 3 had a great day - they all got a medal and I didn't :) We rounded off the day with a couple of hours on the Hill of Tara.

    Best of luck with the Warriors Run.




  • Well done again T. Nice chatting with you on Sunday.

    Have to agree with the idea of the family and kids friendly races - there was a great atmosphere at the race. My 3 had a great day - they all got a medal and I didn't :) We rounded off the day with a couple of hours on the Hill of Tara.

    Best of luck with the Warriors Run.

    Same as. Well done on the solid performance in the race. Must try out Hill of Tara sometime. Best of luck in Longford. Yesterday's run was a positive sign I think.




  • 15-21st August

    All runs easy and in km unless otherwise stated

    M 4 x 2 (commute) PM 10 E + core (18 day total)
    T AM 4 Lunch 8 PM1 4 PM2 7 + core (23)
    W AM 4 PM1 4 PM2 12 + core (20)
    T Session 4 x (10' + 1') off 1,3 long efforts were LT-CV (20-12k race effort) short efforts were 5-10k race effort (25)
    F AM 4 PM 10 (14)
    S AM 10 PM 4 (14)
    S Half Session: 2 x (6 x 35s) off jogback. Fast and relaxed pace on flat tarmac (12)

    Total 126k one full session one mini session a few core workouts.

    Wanted to get a decent weeks kilometrage in bearing in mind my first major target is approaching on Saturday.

    The Thursday session is the culmination of a progression of shunt style LT sessions. The format is a long segment followed by a minute jog followed by a harder minute. Jog for 3 repeat. Long segment has build from 3 up to 10 minutes. It is really great for strenght and fits well with my Warriors run prep and establishing a base for some faster road running training. I was actually suprised how strong I was on a recent hill race.

    I tweaked this one to be as specific as possible to the Warriors Run.
    I wanted to ensure that I finished this at a fast pace because my road races weren't ideal in this regard (very hot/humid conditions for Bettysrown 5 mile, and a too fast start for Duleek 10k). Not great performances in either of these but physically I wanted to have run very fast while tired.
    Also I wanted these to be race effort, so I would running this as I will be on Saturday.

    So with that in mind first long segment was on undulating ground from Marlay Park over to military road: about 3k. Controlled pace just almost bang on LT, I reckon. Now minute rest followed by a minute hard but controlled. Probably 5-10k effort here. Good so far.

    3 minute jog further down Military road and Now the big climb.
    Controlled again, road was fine legs dealing with lactate well, onto the steep climb straight up to the Hellfire club. Quads feeling it but the hard effort was sustainable. Ran around the ruins of the Hellfire club for race simulation and ran a minute down for same reason. Minute rest, and a minute hard but controlled back up. 3k race effort I'd say. Hard, but the descent was next and Im going to have to deal with/re-use a lot of lactate etc. on Saturday so worth injecting a good dose. Ran 3 mins passed the club down the fireroad as the jog.
    Next segment, ran fast for a minute or two, past the ruin and down. Controlled and not slow were my cues down the steep descent.
    Out onto the road and into Masseys wood. Very fast ground here and all the way hard and fast through the offroad and onto Cruagh road. Stopped at Mutton lane and back hard uphill after my minutes rest. Held my form here, albeit getting a little more tired. 3 Mins jog and now the important one. Ran from start of Mutton lane all the way passed the underpass at Taylor's Bar and a uphill after for half a minute. Tough but felt strong getting through it. Last minute uphill was all out with legs tying up at the very end.
    Paced it well and happy with the session before Saturday.
    Good session. As specific as possible and was happy with how I coped on the transitions to different gradients.

    Sundays was just to keep putting pep in the legs as race approaches.

    Goals this week are rest, good diet and race planning. Ill have some form of continous (short) fast run on Tuesday, a few strides on Thursday and that will be it.

    I'm confident on improving on my time from what I can see the field is looking stacked this year so improving my position may not follow.
    I'll do my best on the day.




  • Nice work T. I'm in Cork for the week and managed to find a 10k race yesterday in Skibbereen which was just the ticket for me, 7 days out. 5th place in steady 3:50 min/k splits which is good for me. Easy running now for me this week. See you Saturday. If I get there early I might pop you a text.


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  • Nice work T. I'm in Cork for the week and managed to find a 10k race yesterday in Skibbereen which was just the ticket for me, 7 days out. 5th place in steady 3:50 min/k splits which is good for me. Easy running now for me this week. See you Saturday. If I get there early I might pop you a text.

    Grand Mick, give us a shout and well warm up together.
    Great result in Skibereen. The 10k is perfect and will really help. Chat then.




  • What is a "shunt style LT session" ?

    Good luck on Saturday. I hope to be out there watching/supporting.
    Any predictions for the front of the field?




  • dna_leri wrote: »
    What is a "shunt style LT session" ?

    Good luck on Saturday. I hope to be out there watching/supporting.
    Any predictions for the front of the field?

    The shunt style session involves an LT rep followed by a harder rep followed by a rest period. The harder rep puts lactate in the blood. I believe the rest allows some of the blood to be dispersed around the body with the working muscles trying to re-use anything left during the subsequent longer rep. The result is that the body deals with lactate better at LT so I guess LT is improved. AFAIK it is best done when LT is already well developed.
    The ability to deal with surges of lactate seemed to me to be of extra benefit in a very undulating road race with a massive climb and many gradient transitions like the Warriors run.
    I knew John had used sessions with hard segments with people he coaches, so I asked him if he could throw his eye on it based on the race intensity profile I gave him.

    He came back with a progression and options inc gradient of ground etc. which I more or less followed (more detail earlier in log).
    Short rep is always uphill. Long rep as stated.
    Progression is in rep size.
    Rest between reps within set=1 min
    rest between sets = 3 mins

    1: 10 x (3+1) long rep on undulating ground
    2: 7 x (5 + 1) long rep on fast flat tarmac.
    3: 5 x (7+1) Undulating ground (Knocknarea)
    4: 4 x ( (3x3) + 1) 30 secs between short reps, 1 min rest before fast minute, 3 mins between sets. Also the first set was gradually uphill road, second set was uphill offroad. (Glenmore, Cooley mountains)
    5: 4 x (10 + 1) as detailed in recent post.

    Did one every 2 weeks roughly.
    You can see the benefit to strenght endurance clearly by having to run fast after being tired on an uphill. In the Glen of the Downs hill race I noticed how quickly I could get going again after transitions and my general performance was up several percent on earlier this year. I had a hamstring issue which meant I didn't do much LT work before starting this training but the strenght garnered from thsi should be a starting point for some faster running when this race is done.

    As regards the Warriors run men's race, the main contenders that I've heard are racing would be on paper Brian MacM, Emmett D, Jake O'R, and Ultra Percy mentioned he was running too. I know of the first 3's form recently so I'll comment generally on them.

    Brian Mac is current national HM champion and the top Irish International runner for many years. He has the record on the route and has won comfortably both times he has entered.
    Emmett D was only 77s behind Brian the last time he raced in 2013. He was strong on all sections that day. With his track background the endurance/strenght necessary for a very low time in this race was a limiter before that. Clearly he has made even more ground there since 2013. Also his 5k pb has improved and he is in top form. He seems to be throwing in a few big weeks leading up to this. He'll keep his speed too.
    Jake O'R had a big win in the streets of Sligo 5k. He was only 11 seconds behind Sergio in streets of Galway 8k in a fast 24:38.
    He ran the Knocknarea 8 miler (based on WR course) in 41 (2 mins ahead of Richard G). Safe to say he is a confident and onfire. He knows his way around a mountain too: In 2012 his individual 10th place helping the Irish Juniors to their best ever International finish on an up 'n down looped course..

    Just commenting on these 3:
    Brian has to be favourite. But this race is falls in between the National half and the World mountain running champs so I'd imagine it would be hard to prioritize it for a taper.
    If he's not at 100% (fully rested) then he comes into range of the other two. That could be bad news for him because the other two are not there to come second. A dark horse is always possible.
    Think it will be a great race.

    I don't know who's in for the female race unfortunately.

    Edit: Actually I do. If Brian is running then 2016 Snowdon winner Sarah M should be running and should win.




  • Now tell him what lactate buffering is!

    Best of luck T, kill 'em all.




  • Thanks, I'll read the first bit in more detail later (after I run) and I already got the buffering bit from Magness.

    I agree with your analysis of ED & JoR - will be interesting to see which finishes first of that pair anyway. Both in super form. The 8-mile win was v.impressive but it's a race that usually favours experience.
    Did not know much about form of BMac (or other "Dubs").
    Could be the most competitive WR in a few years - should be proper racing.
    Hope the weather does not spoil.




  • dna_leri wrote: »
    Thanks, I'll read the first bit in more detail later (after I run) and I already got the buffering bit from Magness.

    I agree with your analysis of ED & JoR - will be interesting to see which finishes first of that pair anyway. Both in super form. The 8-mile win was v.impressive but it's a race that usually favours experience.
    Did not know much about form of BMac (or other "Dubs").
    Could be the most competitive WR in a few years - should be proper racing.
    Hope the weather does not spoil.

    Peterx was joking about the 'lactate buffering' (private joke), although hopefully Ill have a bit of it come Saturday near the top of the hill.
    Bad weather would spoil it for spectators but can add to the race IMO.
    The last wet race was 2009 which featured a good battle between Josphat Boit and Owen Gahan. I remember the Sligo Champion calling it 'the worst weather for it in living memory' which may have been the worst BS in living memory!
    Easterly gale and horizontal rain is my selfish preference!
    Just kidding, hopefully a good day for the spectacle.




  • Just popping in to wish you all the best for tomorrow T!




  • Ososlo wrote: »
    Just popping in to wish you all the best for tomorrow T!

    Thanks a million A! All set now! My nephew, sister, sister in law running too tomorrow and my kids, all extended kids running in various nipper races on the Sunday. A great running weekend in store!




  • Good luck in Strandhill.




  • Great stuff! Big congrats !!!


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  • A great performance to make top 5 in that field. The organisation was top notch and welcoming as ever. Always nice to catch up.




  • Great performance Demfad. It was a super race, really enjoyed it and will be back next year. Thanks for the tips earlier, they really helped. You were almost spot on with your time predictions for me as well!
    demfad wrote: »
    So for yourself the sections might pan out like this:
    Undulating road: 16-18 mins.
    Climb starts: 28-30 mins (tarmac 6, offroad 23)
    Descent starts 8-9 mins (offroad 7, tarmac 2)
    Road back to Strandhill: 30-35

    That's just a rough guide to help with a training run.

    Road 24 mins
    Mountain 33 mins
    Road 33 mins




  • Will keep a log here while I'm doing the 1000 challenge.

    Catch up. Took a good few months off after Warriors run 2015. Started back in Spring in earnest for the 2016 Warriors but only managed a dissapointing 62 mins. Since then training has been good. I've adopted a Lydiard buildup with a couple of medium Long runs in the week, a long run, and a steady-marathon paced hour run 1-2 times a week. There is supposed to be a fartlek in there and strides but I was negligent with those.
    In Grant Thornton 2016 Managed a 16:30 ish after a week of pixxed off fast aerobic running in reaction to the Warriors result.
    Since then full Lydiard albeit not good with strides etc. A couple of Parkruns around 17, a couple of 5ks just under. I did a progression of sessions to prepare for the Clontarf half: 10k hard, add 2k per week. Reached 16k and it worked well for the distance. Managed a good 77 on a freezing day with high winds. Did a good few high weeks many over 100 miles after.
    I was using Lydiards system 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 of intensity and often watching the HR for the lower runs based on Livingstones book. Strangely the HR monitor was to ensure I ran fast enough for the 1/4 efforts.
    My reasoning for this difficulty is that my metabolic fitness is greater than my muscular strenght. Not much faster running, hillrunning or hill sprints means the legs are not as strong as they could be and these easier intensity runs feel 'fast' for my legs even though they are 'easy' based on HR.

    Raheny 5:

    I was still expecting a reasonable run here. Normally the accumulated strenght translates to some proportionate improvement in performance for me even if I havent done specific sessions.
    Alas, a tough one for me. Week before was poor, dropped mileage too much (was busy and tired). Didn't get strides or a session in, and started the warmup too late, went into the pen too early.
    Anyway no excuses (apart from the 4 listed). I decided to go off steady, not to push and get warmed into it. Speed should increase as the race wore on and with the miles in the legs I should be able to hammer it home for the last 2.
    Seemed to start OK albeit with a niggling awareness that the speed was a little alien. There was a group ahead with an old clubmate who I figured would be sub 27 and I had him marked. After 1.5 mile I was within 5s of this group.
    I think I may have upped it a little here are moved out of my controlled steadiness as I noticed an increase in discomfort and it became a struggle not to slow down. When the long gradual downhill sections started I managed to keep pace, but once it flattened again I was going backwards.
    The uphill up the avenue was extremely tough for all, the eventual second lady passed me here at a speed that really made me feel like I wasn't running at all.
    Finished at 28 and a quarter mins.

    I was dissapointed but I'm not training for races ATM, I'm 45 and I learnt a lot from it:

    -In base training if the speed is slow or you're attempting high mileage then some form of strides, buildups etc is regularly needed.

    -Especially true if you're a masters runner.

    -From the second point it has been suggested that masters should have shorter training cycles they need to be more often in touch with different paces and intensities (use it or lose it).

    My plan was for a big buildup now and aiming for road PBs in the summer and then pushing on for an Autumn marathon. I will probably stick with that but it's time to start slotting in a few hills a few LT sessions while keeping the hour strong efforts and long runs. Vital to get the strides and buildups in.

    Joined a gym a few weeks ago literally 2 mins from the house.
    Great for popping over in the evenings for stretching, strenght or an evening run.

    Upcoming races: Have a low key 10k early March followed by Debra Half marathon. Debra is hilly and off-road which should focus me on building the strenght (while keeping mileage high).

    Last week was 97 miles. Did Raheny 5 the previous Sunday and took three easy days (a day per 10 minutes of racing) till Thursday.

    On Thursday it was 10-12 by 200m off 200m jog. This was on road: Lifted my knees high and really exagerated stride because I need to work on knee lift and range of motion.

    Saturday was (10 x 3mins) off 30s. Comfortably uncomfortable so fine.

    Sunday: Freezing outside so Long run on threadmill. Threw in a few hills for the craic. Tried a few fast one minute reps at the end at 32 min 10k pace. Ouch.
    Tried a few 30s at 30 min 10k pace. It was like a full on sprint. But treadmill is handy for messing around like this.

    Will do a proper week review (layout) for current week on Monday.




  • 5th-11th February

    Monday:
    am 4.5 jogs
    pm 12.5 Easy including 4 buildups*

    Tuesday:
    am 12.5 E
    pm 12.5 E including 8 x 100m strides

    Wednesday:
    am 12.5 E
    pm 13.5 inc 10k brisk @ 38'
    pm2 3 E + core

    Thursday:
    am 12.5 E
    pm 12.5
    pm2 4E + core

    Friday:
    am12.5E

    Saturday:
    33 including 26k steady very hilly run

    Sunday:
    8E

    Total 153k (95 miles)

    *buildup=a slow smooth buildup in speed with last 20-30 metres at a fast pace.

    I used the HRM for Wednesday's 10k effort. About 10+ beats below LT. Pretty controlled in poor weather. Sped up for last 2-3 minutes.

    Saturdays hilly run was based around triangle frpm Taylors up 3 rock to Kilmashogue and back. Two of those about 46 minutes each time for those who know the loop. First climb was steady, second was on threshold to keep same pace. Recovered pretty quick after each climb and able to keep it steady for the remainder of the loop. Have 2-3 steady runs out and over Howth in the last 2 months which helped greatly.


    A few changes:

    Started running in to work in the mornings. I'd recommend this especially if on big mileage:
    -Main run is done when at freshest and strongest: better quality and doesnt take as much out of you
    -Not as much of a psychological drag on the day (most of the running still to be done) with at least half the days running done and dusted first thing.

    Another change is adding more strides and buildups after easy runs. This gets at the fast twitch fibres a little when legs are a bit tired, and also clears cobwebs for subsequent day's running.

    A final change has been to focus on hips forward at the start of all easy runs. It helps with relaxation and cadence during these runs. If my muscles are tired and/or sore I can tend to lean forward taking slow inefficient strides sometimes affecting the whole run.

    With the changes especially the morning runs the week felt relatively easy.
    Just as well as I miscounted and have another 3 weeks to go before a smaller week (albeit with 2 races).

    Organised a fun run for the kids school on Sunday so I missed out on a century miles week. I'm not too worried: Not training for a marathon yet and a very easy day is nice for the poor oul legs.

    Identified another weakness which is my propensity to chop and change. With that in mind here is my sessions for next 3 weeks which I wont be changing.
    (races week after are low key 10k and an offroad half marathon (Debra)).


    Upcoming schedule:

    Week1:
    Tue: 60 mins hard
    Thu: 3 x 6 x 35s off 70' jog followed by 2 mins hard (35s @ mile pace,
    2 mins @ 3k pace, 5 mins between sets.
    Sat: 30k steady hill run

    Week2:
    Tue: 65 mins hard
    Thu: 3 x 6 x 35s off 70' jog followed by 3 mins hard (35s @ mile pace,
    3 mins @ 3k pace, 5 mins between sets.
    Sat: 30k steady hill run

    Week3:
    Tue: 70 mins hard
    Thu: 3 x 6 x 35s off 70' jog followed by 4 mins hard (35s @ mile pace,
    4 mins @ 3k pace, 5 mins between sets.
    Sat: 30k steady hill run

    Ill average 100mpw. Have a few weight goals which Ill hope to cover next time.




  • demfad wrote: »
    -Especially true if you're a masters runner.
    -From the second point it has been suggested that masters should have shorter training cycles they need to be more often in touch with different paces and intensities (use it or lose it).
    Good to see you back posting and running regularly. I'll have to go back and re-read some of the masters training literature at some stage, particularly in light of my own experiences over the last 2-3 years. But is this concept of shorter training cycles more of a conceptual one, rather than a physical concept? i.e. The training plan I'm following would be considered long (22-23 weeks), but is broken down into three distinct phases, with some level of overlap (base, pre-comp, and competition), each lasting about 8-9 weeks. So, are these phases in alignment with shorter training cycles, or is the 23 week plan considered a long one?

    Is there a distinction between a competitive masters athlete and an athlete who is chasing a PB (who just happens to be a master)? I guess the reason I'm asking is that I'm not certain I could put myself in a potential position to chase a marathon PB without undertaking a significant amount of specific training orientated towards my race goal (as I am doing now), rather than following a sequence of shorter training cycles aimed at different paces, culminating in an 8 week marathon-specific cycle. Maybe we'll get a chance to find out, but i can report that the wear and tear of a 22-23 week marathon plan on a master's body is pretty significant, so I can see how shorter cycles would be better for general well-being, if not necessarily for specific goal achievement.




  • Good to see you back posting and running regularly. I'll have to go back and re-read some of the masters training literature at some stage, particularly in light of my own experiences over the last 2-3 years. But is this concept of shorter training cycles more of a conceptual one, rather than a physical concept? i.e. The training plan I'm following would be considered long (22-23 weeks), but is broken down into three distinct phases, with some level of overlap (base, pre-comp, and competition), each lasting about 8-9 weeks. So, are these phases in alignment with shorter training cycles, or is the 23 week plan considered a long one?

    Is there a distinction between a competitive masters athlete and an athlete who is chasing a PB (who just happens to be a master)? I guess the reason I'm asking is that I'm not certain I could put myself in a potential position to chase a marathon PB without undertaking a significant amount of specific training orientated towards my race goal (as I am doing now), rather than following a sequence of shorter training cycles aimed at different paces, culminating in an 8 week marathon-specific cycle. Maybe we'll get a chance to find out, but i can report that the wear and tear of a 22-23 week marathon plan on a master's body is pretty significant, so I can see how shorter cycles would be better for general well-being, if not necessarily for specific goal achievement.

    Hi Krusty. Will reply later or tomorrow. Off work a few days and have been meaning to reply but kids running rings around me here!




  • OK. The reference is from a John Kellogg article on multi-training (linked here). I am quoting the passage about multi-tier training below and also another passage that may be relavent to one of the questions. Ill summarize the other problems facing masters from the article below.
    For clarity I'll comment on a seperate post.
    Problem:
    Your pituitary gland releases less growth hormone as you age. One upshot of this is that you find yourself losing raceworthiness (anaerobic tolerance and speed) incredibly quickly following a competitive season, and that it’s a shocking battle to get that sharpness back.
    What you can do about it:
    Use multi-tier training. This utilizes small training pyramids which begin with slower, longer endurance work and which build through faster-paced training stages to a moderate-intensity, reduced "peak". Then the process is repeated, with each stage performed at a higher intensity (faster average pace) than before. Most young runners focus on six-month "macrocycles" in which they do long, slow to moderate distance for two or three months, tempo runs and long intervals for a month or two, then hone up with hard speedwork, time trials, and races. This general approach is preferred for those in their prime, but as a master, you need to shorten those macrocycles to weeks rather than months. That is, emphasize longer endurance training for about three weeks, ease yourself into faster tempo runs and stamina-oriented intervals for a few weeks, then introduce the harder anaerobic intervals, sharp speedwork, and time trials for three or four more weeks. This general cycle can be repeated several times per year, with more time or more intensity devoted to the anaerobic phase during the times you wish to approach peak racing shape. In a non-competitive season, you should still use the fast anaerobic training stage, but the intensity should be made deliberately lower, as though you were just "going through the motions". More time and emphasis in the off-season can be devoted instead to relaxed tempo running and endurance-directed intervals with short rest periods. [Note: the multi-tier approach is not as effective for young runners as is periodization. Young athletes (particularly preteens and teens) cannot tolerate (and do not need) a profusion of stressful anaerobic training. Too much killer track work will burn youngsters out quickly and may harm their future running careers
    Problem:
    Tissue repair capacity is lower. This is also mostly a result of lower androgen levels.
    What you can do about it:
    Since your ability to repair tissue is lower than it was in your 20s, your mileage levels will probably also be lower as a master. This is particularly true if you were a serious runner earlier in life and piled up 100 or more miles per week. It’s very tough to do that much past age 40 and stay uninjured! The more volume you can tolerate, the better you will run (and the less you will have to rely on multi-tier training), but chances are you’ll break down trying to train like a 20-year-old.
    Problem:
    Blood vessels begin losing elasticity and capillary density tends to decrease. You fatigue more quickly because the blood supply to your working muscles simply isn’t as high as it once was.
    What you can do about it:
    Run at a "sub-threshold" pace 1-3 times weekly during an "endurance training" stage and occasionally during the faster training phases.
    Problem:
    The ability for motor neurons to contract muscle fibers is compromised, meaning that you will never be as fast (sprint-wise) as you were in your teens and twenties.
    What you can do about it:
    From a nutritional perspective, eating one-third less than you did in your 20s will forestall the process of lowered DNA replication. Of course, this means that you must also keep your training volume somewhat in check (although running more does simulate eating less, so the more you run, the more you get to eat!). Obviously, eating healthy foods ensures you get the most from your food intake!
    Problem:
    Maximum heart rate (HR) decreases with age. This is also mainly due to a drop in nervous system transmission.
    What you can do about it:
    During an anaerobic training period (and possibly during the end of a pre-anaerobic phase, as well), push your HR up near its maximum by running at "VO2max speed" one or two times per week.
    Problem:
    Testosterone levels are lower (in men), resulting in fractionally lower hemoglobin and myoglobin levels, with a corresponding reduction in oxygen transport capability. Women will tend to slow down less later in life than will men, owing to the fact that their already low testosterone levels do not exhibit this sharp decrease.
    What you can do about it:
    Running hard, fast workouts regularly will keep your testosterone levels higher provided you don’t run hard more than three times per week.
    In summary, masters need a wide variety of training procedures year-round in order to prevent injury, maintain a high max HR, keep hormone levels up, preserve capillary density, reduce boredom, and retain speed. The 40-and-up crowd appears to benefit most from an 8-12 week training cycle which features a 3-4 week stint of extremely hard training 2-3 times weekly (with particularly easy recovery days). Varying the running terrain is helpful, especially during a slower stage of training. Taking time off occasionally (or cross-training) can also be crucial to allow for optimal recovery. A healthy diet is essential as well in order to keep feeling young and to have a long, enjoyable running career.




  • (Caveat: Some of these replies are my own extrapolations)

    But is this concept of shorter training cycles more of a conceptual one, rather than a physical concept?

    In this case Kellogg seems to be describing full physical cycles of 8-12 weeks. The reasoning is that regular phases of anaerobic, speed, VO2max and sub-threshold training are needed to mitigate against the affects of aging on performance and injury resistance. As these paces are mainly at the more intense level of the spectrum it is reasonable to conclude that the performance of masters training for faster events will be potentially more adversely affected by aging than those training for longer events and they would benefit more from multi-tier training. The same extrapolation could be drawn from athletes who rely on more fast twitch fibres. It is more expedient for them to train these fibres more often to mitigate these aging affects. The older the master the more pronounced these aging effects will be and the more the master will need to concentrate on mitigating the affects. At this point, even if the athlete is physically able to complete a long cycle, any underlying base of speed necessary for a successful race specific period will be gone and the athlete should be better to use a multi-tired approach or similar for performance as well as injury prevention and well-being.

    The training plan I'm following would be considered long (22-23 weeks), but is broken down into three distinct phases, with some level of overlap (base, pre-comp, and competition), each lasting about 8-9 weeks. So, are these phases in alignment with shorter training cycles, or is the 23 week plan considered a long one?

    It's true that modern training phases incorporate a little of most paces in different volumes.
    This would be different to what Kellogg suggests (full cycles) but for marathon training there may be (depending on age, athlete etc.) enough variance in intensities in all phases to mitigate these affects (basic speed training etc. is of less importance for the marathon). To keep training in a long macrocyle it may be necessary to sprinkle in more intense work (hill sprints etc). This might have to be supported by multi-tiered macrocycles outside of marathon training:

    eg
    8 wks 3k target
    8 wks 5k target
    8 wks 10k target
    18 wks marathon

    Is there a distinction between a competitive masters athlete and an athlete who is chasing a PB (who just happens to be a master)?

    Yes. For general well being the safer/healthier approach seems to be the reduced volume higher intensity multi-tier approach. From what I gather, the best approach for performance is as close to a senior approach as possible without getting injured and without performance being adversely affected by the other affects of aging.

    I guess the reason I'm asking is that I'm not certain I could put myself in a potential position to chase a marathon PB without undertaking a significant amount of specific training orientated towards my race goal (as I am doing now), rather than following a sequence of shorter training cycles aimed at different paces, culminating in an 8 week marathon-specific cycle. Maybe we'll get a chance to find out, but i can report that the wear and tear of a 22-23 week marathon plan on a master's body is pretty significant, so I can see how shorter cycles would be better for general well-being, if not necessarily for specific goal achievement.

    From what I know of your training I would say you don't have to :

    A consistant high volume over many years at a great variety of paces would have mitigated against any and most affects.
    Any aging issues affecting marathon performance are off-set by sub-threshold runs and you can still maintain the necessary volume.
    Your training has a good sprinkling of paces throughout the macroscycle to offset the speed side of it.
    Youre slow twitch anyway and therefore you will keep improving for a few more years yet.

    For myself taking 4-5 months off (still jogging a little) in late 2016 was pretty hard to recover from. I'm still trying to get back. After the Warriors run I ran a great week of high mileage at fast aerobic paces. With that and the Warriors Run in my legs I pulled out a mid 16s 5k. That was a result considering where I was. But since that with high volume and little speed the times have receded back towards 17. This is the opposite of what used to happen. My feeling is that if I don't top up the hard training, performance now goes.

    As Kellogg said the aging affects on performance can be mitigated. So taking a lot of time out (an extended period of no mitigating training) as a master is a bad idea if anyone intends to coming back. Also, after a period of time out the multi-tiered approach might be best even for younger masters. Otherwise there is a long time without hitting those faster paces.




  • Good to see you back posting demfad. Thought provoking as usual and apt for where I am at the moment - getting back to race fitness and seeing what speed I can rediscover. Will think about it some more during my long run today.


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  • dna_leri wrote: »
    Good to see you back posting demfad. Thought provoking as usual and apt for where I am at the moment - getting back to race fitness and seeing what speed I can rediscover. Will think about it some more during my long run today.

    Hope you had a good run. It might be worth a thread later next week. Would be good to gauge the experiences of longer distance masters and middle distanced focused like yourself to see what people have noticed, what they have done to mitigate and how they have come back from breaks. Whatever about continuous training, after a break I think I would recommend a quick cycle with a target race at the end just to go through the range of paces and intensities that haven't been used in a long spell.


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