Some East Galway Schools Ghettoized

IrishManSaipan

The problem is easily solved. Let the state provide six months of English lessons to children without English as a first language, say from January until June, before they start Junior Infants.

Granted, this will cost a fair wad of cash, but the present method is clearly not working and costs the state some 100 odd million euro for language support.

How the phuc can teachers educate students who cannot speak English?

IrishManSaipan

Steel Pump wrote: »

Thats all very well and good, but how much can they bench press?

I was lifting steel like you wouldn't believe back in primary and racism was never an issue!! too busy pumpin

Tell the truth, you were too busy pulling.

Euro_Kraut

Terry wrote: »

Indeed.

Anyway, I'm currently in Bhutan and the whole society is against me.
Nobody will speak my native language.

Should I
A. Integrate into the society and learn their language so that I can function as a member of their society?
B. Whine like a little bitch and scream racism because nobody here will go out of their way to learn a foreign language* just to accomodate me?

There is always C.

C. The Govt of Bhutan recognizes your williness to learn the language and will subsidize some classes for you. Meanwhile your children will be offered extra tuition in the school to help them catch up with the others. They do this as their is a benefit for them when your and your kids learn the language as quickly as possible and as well as possible.

BluesBerry

So with the Language support teachers in the schools help the non english speaking children How long will they last with all these cutbacks a lot of SNA's didn't get their contracts renewed this year
I would have thought they would have been a priority with special needs children in mainstream school.
How long until the language support teachers are cut back what state will the schools be in then if they cut back on SNA's

IrishManSaipan

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Hold your horses there, horse. Id actually blame the "anti racism" quangos on this bad boy. Two years ago, Brian Hayes suggested that immigrants who have problems with the English language should attend specialised language classes until their English skills were sufficient. Of course this was deemed racist and he had to backtrack. Now, it appears he was bang on the money. Ah well. The "anti racism" will be apologising in 3,2,1......:pac:

Yes, teach them English first then educate the children!

Euro_Kraut

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

The problem is easily solved. Let the state provide six months of English lessons to children without English as a first language, say from January until June, before they start Junior Infants.

Granted, this will cost a fair wad of cash, but the present method is clearly not working and costs the state some 100 odd million euro for language support.

How the phuc can teachers educate students who cannot speak English?

As it stands children as entitled to 2 years of English as Second Language classes in secondary school.

I'm not sure there are HUGE problems. The odd student will never learn because they are not very good at languages (dyslexia can be a issue) and are not academically minded. Just look at the amount of Irish people who cannot speak Irish after 13 years of tuition. Granted immersion in a language should aid the process but as anyone who has gone abroad to a non anglophonic country and spent me in the education system will tell you - academic fluency is hard to obtain.

Morlar

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

There is always C.

C. The Govt of Bhutan recognizes your williness to learn the language and will subsidize some classes for you. Meanwhile your children will be offered extra tuition in the school to help them catch up with the others. They do this as their is a benefit for them when your and your kids learn the language as quickly as possible and as well as possible.

Option D is that local kids in Bhutan who make up 10% of the class will have their educational progress completely ground to a halt while teachers go into overdrive trying to teach non natives the language (from a starting level of about zero).

IrishManSaipan

BluesBerry wrote: »

So with the Language support teachers in the schools help the non english speaking children How long will they last with all these cutbacks a lot of SNA's didn't get their contracts renewed this year
I would have thought they would have been a priority with special needs children in mainstream school.
How long until the language support teachers are cut back what state will the schools be in then if they cut back on SNA's

They were cut in the last budget.

Should the parents not have to contribute at all at all?

Euro_Kraut

BluesBerry wrote: »

How long until the language support teachers are cut back what state will the schools be in then if they cut back on SNA's

Their already have been cutbacks. The student teacher ratio for TEFL was increased last year. I know of one school in Meath the had 2 specialized TEFL teachers last year and lost one this year on account of the cuts backs.

Its short sighted and we will end up paying the cost down the road in terms of poorer integration.

Euro_Kraut

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

There is always C.

C. The Govt of Bhutan recognizes your williness to learn the language and will subsidize some classes for you. Meanwhile your children will be offered extra tuition in the school to help them catch up with the others. They do this as their is a benefit for them when your and your kids learn the language as quickly as possible and as well as possible.

A good solution if the country in question can afford such a programme, perhaps a special tax code to leach back the cost of the education over the lifetime of the immagrant.
In fact it may work out cheaper than having certain social service documents translated into about 50 languages at regular intervals. If you cant speak the language you can't claim! Quickest way to ensure linguistic conversion.

IrishManSaipan

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

As it stands children as entitled to 2 years of English as Second Language classes in secondary school.

Should the state not provide the classes before the child attends primary school? If you cannot speak English by secondary school, theres not much hope for ya. Young children absorb information like a sponge. The longer you leave the english lessons, the more difficult it becomes.

Also, the longer teachers spend teaching english, the more it holds back the other children. Everyone is effected.

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I'm not sure there are HUGE problems.

The schools principals would disagree with you there.

Morlar

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Their already have been cutbacks. The student teacher ratio for TEFL was increased last year. I know of one school in Meath the had 2 specialized TEFL teachers last year and lost one this year on account of the cuts backs.

Its short sighted and we will end up paying the cost down the road in terms of poorer integration.

I think we should make it a compulsory part of the asylum process that immigrants attend english language lessons while their case is working it's way through the system. If you made proficiency in english as the final hurdle to citizenship the levels would go through the roof.

IrishManSaipan

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Their already have been cutbacks. The student teacher ratio for TEFL was increased last year. I know of one school in Meath the had 2 specialized TEFL teachers last year and lost one this year on account of the cuts backs.

I have a TEFL cert. Is that all you need to work as a language support teacher? :eek:

Euro_Kraut

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Should the parents not have to contribute at all at all?

Presumably they pay taxes like every other parent.

Some might get help outside of school too and pay privately. Not all could afford that though.

Euro_Kraut

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

I have a TEFL cert. Is that all you need to work as a language support teacher? :eek:

Nope. You need a HDip (+degree) too.

IrishManSaipan

Deleted User wrote: »

A good solution if the country in question can afford such a programme, perhaps a special tax code to leach back the cost of the education over the lifetime of the immagrant.
In fact it may work out cheaper than having certain social service documents translated into about 50 languages at regular intervals. If you cant speak the language you can't claim! Quickest way to ensure linguistic conversion.

......and expect to see the country flooded with english language students. Pick up a bit of work, and get free english lessons.Earn as you learn, so to speak. Meanwhile the half a million on the dole become restless.

Euro_Kraut

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

The odd student will never learn because they are not very good at languages (dyslexia can be a issue)

Tell me about it! I have mild dyslexia and have difficulty understanding English (my mother tongue) sometimes, but despite that have learned a bit of French, Dutch, German and currently learning Irish.

It can be done, just needs more time, something that can't be done in a class with other pupils learning the principal subject of the class.

IrishManSaipan

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Presumably they pay taxes like every other parent.

Which goes on little things like running the country. Love this attitude, they pay taxes, ergo they should be entitled to everything and anything.

Notice I said a contribution, is that too much to ask? A subscription or donation, if you will.

IrishManSaipan

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

I have a TEFL cert. Is that all you need to work as a language support teacher? :eek:

There are different types of TEFL cert. I would assume a DELTA qualification would be enough to work as a language support teacher.

Euro_Kraut

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Should the state not provide the classes before the child attends primary school? If you cannot speak English by secondary school, theres not much hope for ya. Young children absorb information like a sponge. The longer you leave the english lessons, the more difficult it becomes.

Some children only move to Ireland when they are 14/15. It these that I am referring too. Not sure what the set up in Primary school is but obviously the later the child moves the bigger the challenge.

Also, the longer teachers spend teaching english, the more it holds back the other children. Everyone is effected.

Again, not sure in Primary school, but in Secondary the foreign kids get ther English support lesson while the others are doing Irish. Therefore the impact is minimized.

I agree though that in Primary a teacher cannot be expected to teach a new language to some kids and maths to others at the same time.

The schools principals would disagree with you there.

They are hardly going to come along and say they don't need more funding. There is a need for reform, investment etc. but I am not sure we are at the stage (like in Germany) where kids are going all the way from Kindergarten to Leaving Cert and still have no English.

IrishManSaipan

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

......and expect to see the country flooded with english language students. Pick up a bit of work, and get free english lessons.Earn as you learn, so to speak. Meanwhile the half a million on the dole become restless.

lol!

I didn't say free! they pay it back in extra taxes over the next few years, anyway the types that are likely to try this trick would be non EU and would be stopped by other means.

IrishManSaipan

[quote=[Deleted User];64433751]There are different types of TEFL cert. I would assume a DELTA qualification would be enough to work as a language support teacher.[/QUOTE]

I got mine of this crowd a couple of years ago; http://www.thelanguagehouse.net/

These children have to suffer enough, without having to endure the likes of me "teaching" them english.

Euro_Kraut

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Which goes on little things like running the country. Love this attitude, they pay taxes, ergo they should be entitled to everything and anything.

Thats a quite a big step you making. The point is they contribute to the education system in the exact same way as every other parent.

Notice I said a contribution, is that too much to ask? A subscription or donation, if you will.

Should parents of special needs kids or those with disabilities also pay extra?

I don't think so. In fact I do not believe a child standard of education should be determined by the ability of their parents to pay money. I believe that public funded education benefits everyone in society in the long run. I apply the same train of though to kids whose parents to do speak English as their first language.

There are only three Educate Together schools in Galway City and County.

The primary school going population of the area is about 27,000 according to cso.ie

Equally about 12% of people described themselves as something other than Roman Catholic.

I'm amazed that the story isn't about parents being forced to send their children to schools run by organisations that don't share their beliefs or lack of them.

(apart from the CoI school in town I can't think of any other non catholic primary schools)

Euro_Kraut

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

These children have to suffer enough, without having to endure the likes of me "teaching" them english.

I'm sure you would be a lovely teacher.

IrishManSaipan

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Some children only move to Ireland when they are 14/15. It these that I am referring too. Not sure what the set up in Primary school is but obviously the later the child moves the bigger the challenge.

Very true, point taken. Regarding primary school students, in hindsight, do you think Brian Hayes' suggestion was a good one?

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/08/20/story70253.asp

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Again, not sure in Primary school, but in Secondary the foreign kids get ther English support lesson while the others are doing Irish. Therefore the impact is minimized.

Sounds reasonable enough, but according to the reports, it is children in primary, not secondary schools were the problems arise.

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I agree though that in Primary a teacher cannot be expected to teach a new language to some kids and maths to others at the same time.

Agreed, if a student struggles through primary school, it will hinder his/her progress in secondary.

"Tus maith leath n h-oibre". A good start is half the battle.

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

They are hardly going to come along and say they don't need more funding. There is a need for reform, investment etc. but I am not sure we are at the stage (like in Germany) where kids are going all the way from Kindergarten to Leaving Cert and still have no English.

Give it time......

Dudess

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

How is that racist?

It's not remotely racist - there isn't any evidence of racial discrimination whatsoever, but the OP was thinking "Hmmm... I need something to sock it to the liberals on AH... oh look, this'll do. Plus, I'll lash the 'racist' label on it in a cryptic, 'going-against-the-grain' fashion for maximum attention seeking".

IrishManSaipan

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Should parents of special needs kids or those with disabilities also pay extra?

No, but these children are of sound body and mind.

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I don't think so. In fact I do not believe a child standard of education should be determined by the ability of their parents to pay money. I believe that public funded education benefits everyone in society in the long run. I apply the same train of though to kids whose parents to do speak English as their first language.

When I was in school, and it wasnt that long ago(2004), my ma was asked to pay a subscription each year on an annual basis(private donation).

If I moved abroad with my kids(hypothetical) and the government paid for language lessons for my kids(hypothetical) I would happily pay a small donation towards my kids(hypothetical) language lessons.

DogmaticLefty

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

But religious inequality is the cause.

Peer-reviewed study please. Or is that just your persecution complex coming to the fore?

DogmaticLefty

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Peer-reviewed study please. Or is that just your persecution complex coming to the fore?

Please! this isn't the IPCC. :pac:


edit: maybe you're right this is the AH version of PR.