Rumen Fluke Treatment

jocotty

Good loser wrote: »

That's amazing. So many in such a short time. Were they very thin or scoury? Are you sure it was rumen fluke killed them? Could it have been an after-effect of the 'normal fluke dose'?

Ya, they got extremely thin , and scoury , very fast. They had been done for Normal fluke. He dosed them for other things, and called out 2 vets after the first one died, and they just said to give them more meals. Then they started dropping like flies? Called out vets again, after about 4 of them died, and they kept just saying same thing, . Had to bring 2 alive but sick ones to a lab, and turns out they were completely riddled with rumen fluke. Dosed them with Zanil, he told me today. Never saw anything like it. And my brothers been rareing calves on his own since he was 16 . He's 42 now, and still missed it. We have good land, but renting a bit of low lying, heavy land this year, and that's where they got it. never saw anything like it in our lives. Vets should put some sort of a warning out to people, but they don't seem to care.

Milkymoos

farawaygrass wrote: »

i also get the impression from this forum that there is no one product to do the two flukes? withdrawal period of 150 days is just crazy aint it, what if cows, or any animal goes down over the winter calving or what not, then its only the knackery for it. any way of distinguishing between the two?

Zanil or levafas diamond will do both rumen and liver fluke, both products ain't great on liver fluke so would definitely recommend doing twice in housing/dry period. Are you beef/suckler or dairy? If dairy be careful what you use regarding milk withdrawals and legality for use in pregnant animals producing milk or will be producing milk for human consumption. With regard to testing for fluke you could easily take dung samples from say 10 animals, pool the sample in a jam jar and send off to the lab to test for rumen and liver fluke, should give you a good guide to what needs to be treated. 150 days is a disaster alright, realisticlly can only really be used on very young animals, great product but a disaster from that point of view.

pakalasa

Zanil will only kill Adult Liver Fluke (Plus Rumen Fluke)
http://www.imb.ie/images/uploaded/swedocuments/LicenseSPC_10277-043-001_18112010143329.pdf

Milkymoos

jocotty wrote: »

Ya, they got extremely thin , and scoury , very fast. They had been done for Normal fluke. He dosed them for other things, and called out 2 vets after the first one died, and they just said to give them more meals. Then they started dropping like flies? Called out vets again, after about 4 of them died, and they kept just saying same thing, . Had to bring 2 alive but sick ones to a lab, and turns out they were completely riddled with rumen fluke. Dosed them with Zanil, he told me today. Never saw anything like it. And my brothers been rareing calves on his own since he was 16 . He's 42 now, and still missed it. We have good land, but renting a bit of low lying, heavy land this year, and that's where they got it. never saw anything like it in our lives. Vets should put some sort of a warning out to people, but they don't seem to care.

Would be very p*seed off with vets if that's the response I got from them after calling out twice. Know of a farmer who had 22 out of 150 cows very sick and scoury. Vets didn't know what was up until they decided to test for rumen fluke. This is going back about 3 years ago before rumen fluke was an issue. Samples came back riddled with rumen fluke so went and did the 22 with zanil. Out of the 22, 8 died soon after getting the dose. Vet reckons cows couldn't handle the kill as so sick already. Other 14 cows turned inside out in bout 2 weeks after scouring there brains out!! Treated rest of herd soon after and it's like looking at a different herd of animals now. Zanil is hard on animals but max dose is 105MLS only for 350kg and over animals. Do not exceed this dose under any circumstances.

Milkymoos

pakalasa wrote: »

Zanil will only kill Adult Liver Fluke.
http://www.imb.ie/images/uploaded/swedocuments/LicenseSPC_10277-043-001_18112010143329.pdf

Yep, and even at that it won't do a great job even only in adult liver fluke. Funny thin is zanil isn't licensed for treatment of rumen fluke in Ireland, it is in France and Australia though.

KCTK

Milkymoos wrote: »

Would be very p*seed off with vets if that's the response I got from them after calling out twice. Know of a farmer who had 22 out of 150 cows very sick and scoury. Vets didn't know what was up until they decided to test for rumen fluke. This is going back about 3 years ago before rumen fluke was an issue. Samples came back riddled with rumen fluke so went and did the 22 with zanil. Out of the 22, 8 died soon after getting the dose. Vet reckons cows couldn't handle the kill as so sick already. Other 14 cows turned inside out in bout 2 weeks after scouring there brains out!! Treated rest of herd soon after and it's like looking at a different herd of animals now. Zanil is hard on animals but max dose is 105MLS only for 350kg and over animals. Do not exceed this dose under any circumstances.

Posted on another thread on this last week, had lost 4 year and a half bullock at that stage, ended up with 6 lost in total, same as jocotty story, vet was trying everything and dropping like flies, sent one on point of dying to lab and small intestine riddled with immature rumen fluke. Dosed at that stage and then lost 2 last fellows about 5 days later, same story as you mention there, they just couldn't handle the zanil, it does scour the "****" out of animals alright. heard since of alot of issues with weanlings at the moment, some are not even responding to rumen fluke treatment

joejobrien

just to add more confusion to this debate.

Most people are correct in some shape. However i will make some futher
points
1. all lands are susceptible to both types of fluke. Water lodged on a dry field is a perfect host for fluke, so you can only imagine what wet heavy land can present to cattle.
2.In respect of stomach fluke, stocking rates are also a factor. The higher the sr. it forces one to graze closer resulting in a greater challenge been presented
Lower stocking rate the animal can graze more selective. This does not refer to poorer mangenment to either SD.
3.STOMACH FLUKE CAN OCCUR LITERALLY OVERNIGHT. I will give our experience.
Calves dosed a very regular interval all year, change of dose also,
then changed to levafas diamond ,controls stomach worms, lungworms adult liver fluke and rumen fluke
All successful at treatment At the next round of dosing lev.diamond used and moved to clean pasture. Two days later calves presented with been slow to eat feed, assumed fresh grass. however scouring for Ireland!!!! That evening move calves indoor. Weather extremely wet greater than 25mm of rain that week. Assumed weather had taken it toll
Following Morning ,Pulled a dead weanling from shed. Vet could not diagnose proplem with remainding calves possible cociddia coupled with a virus.Calf sent to Lab , no possible cause of death.Two days Two more calves died. sent to Lab and again no reason for death. All calves neg for stomach worms, lungworms, liverfluke, syscetima, ibr stomach fluke, cociddia................. the list goes on. Egg count also done. Neg. .Meanwhile calves been injected with la antibiotics to fight off proplem. Another few days passed , lost 2 more calves, Reluctantly went to lab again, would have went to china if I got my answer.
Spoke to vet in Lab by prior arrangement. Explained our dosing policy etc...note calves had been dosed on 3 separte occasion with LDiamond prior to this outbreak ..Vet had previously worked on our farm as a private lad. He was baffled. Decided to scrap internal lining of animal an place under microscope Guess what IMMATURE RUMEN FLUKE!!!!
Immediately dosed all calves with zanil TWICE 3DAYS APART .
That is how successful treatment of rumen fluke is got.When dosing we were hoping that the immatures devoloped enough to get some kill on RF.
Yes we got success. We are still nursing 15 animals unsure weather they have a futher, another 25 possibly recover fully.
On reflection what happened was L DIAMOND had killed RF successful on previous occasions , but animals were grazing very heavy land ........... only animal that would do no poaching, exteremly wetweather , massive massive challenge to calves. result in overburden of immatures in avery short time. this was why nothing showed up in P MORTEM as only searched for mature fluke and neg for FC( immature dont show in FC.) imo, most vets have a reasonable knowledge however there is always new groundto be broken. For some to dismiss RF IS VERY SHORT SITED . The above may not happen for many, OR various reasons on farms but on HIGH SR it became much more acute.
I know lads in my group who think they dont have a proplem have since changed ther opnion.I have since come by a parsitoligist. He specialises is parasites. From Dublin . He also issued the same adivice in treatment as we used. Anyone requiring information, pleae send me a pm. Dont underestimate the damage caused by both liver and rumen fluke , both clinical and subclinical can cause siginficiant loss of production.Please note the above is my experience and am only highlighting condition that can present.It dose not disagree with other comments already given.
Hope it might show some clarity on RUMEN FLUKE.
jjobrien.

farawaygrass

Milkymoos wrote: »

Zanil or levafas diamond will do both rumen and liver fluke, both products ain't great on liver fluke so would definitely recommend doing twice in housing/dry period. Are you beef/suckler or dairy? If dairy be careful what you use regarding milk withdrawals and legality for use in pregnant animals producing milk or will be producing milk for human consumption. With regard to testing for fluke you could easily take dung samples from say 10 animals, pool the sample in a jam jar and send off to the lab to test for rumen and liver fluke, should give you a good guide to what needs to be treated. 150 days is a disaster alright, realisticlly can only really be used on very young animals, great product but a disaster from that point of view.

thanks for all the info. might just take samples. we are suckler to beef. we calved early last year and let them out maybe in bad weather conditions but the last 4-5 calves got bad scour and had to be taking back in. you can still see the setback in them. are animals at risk from fluke at all times of the year, say jan feb as well as summer time?
even if not dosing to prevent death, if done right it makes a massive difference to weight gain? as i said before the way it was done here was dose or pour on at 6 weeks post housing and that was it. we are reasonably dry land (except for this year), what intervals do ye dose at? and do ye always change products each time?

case 5150

what would happen if ye gave 20ml over dose of zanil to incalf heifers

greysides

One of the treatment options for Rumen fluke is a double dose of Zanil, although it's not the recommended one in this country.

So a little over the recommended amount will be okay.

case 5150

father dosed incalf heifers calving feb with zanil today and gave 135mls instead of 105 he calibrated the gun wrong, hope these will b ok and wont slip the calves

greysides

Not sure if it's been posted or not but the AHI leaflet on Rumen fluke is here.

pakalasa

greysides wrote: »

Not sure if it's been posted or not but the AHI leaflet on Rumen fluke is here.

From the above;
"Left untreated, severely affected animals may die due to dehydration."

I wonder, should very weak animals also be getting some kind of re-hydration treatment when dosed for Rumen Fluke.

awaywithyou

jocotty wrote: »

Ya, they got extremely thin , and scoury , very fast. They had been done for Normal fluke. He dosed them for other things, and called out 2 vets after the first one died, and they just said to give them more meals. Then they started dropping like flies? Called out vets again, after about 4 of them died, and they kept just saying same thing, . Had to bring 2 alive but sick ones to a lab, and turns out they were completely riddled with rumen fluke. Dosed them with Zanil, he told me today. Never saw anything like it. And my brothers been rareing calves on his own since he was 16 . He's 42 now, and still missed it. We have good land, but renting a bit of low lying, heavy land this year, and that's where they got it. never saw anything like it in our lives. Vets should put some sort of a warning out to people, but they don't seem to care.

if ya dont mind me asking... did this happen somewhere in north kerry??

greysides

pakalasa wrote: »

From the above;
"Left untreated, severely affected animals may die due to dehydration."

I wonder, should very weak animals also be getting some kind of re-hydration treatment when dosed for Rumen Fluke.

If they are dehydrated, and they would be, it should help.

KCTK

farawaygrass wrote: »

thanks for all the info. might just take samples. we are suckler to beef. we calved early last year and let them out maybe in bad weather conditions but the last 4-5 calves got bad scour and had to be taking back in. you can still see the setback in them. are animals at risk from fluke at all times of the year, say jan feb as well as summer time?
even if not dosing to prevent death, if done right it makes a massive difference to weight gain? as i said before the way it was done here was dose or pour on at 6 weeks post housing and that was it. we are reasonably dry land (except for this year), what intervals do ye dose at? and do ye always change products each time?

The immature rumen fluke wont show up in the dung samples, think its to do with not laying eggs at that stage, thats what caught us, dung samples were clear for rumen fluke and end up with 6 dead within the week from the immature guys having the small intestine riddled. Under €1.50 an animal to dose, if your think they might have it then I'd be dosing and not taking a chance.

joejobrien

greysides wrote: »

If they are dehydrated, and they would be, it should help.

Fully agree,
Once a day maybe adquate or they may need it twice/day if really severe. Electrolytes and rumen boosters.
Injection of se and multivit would be of siginficant benefit as they are shedding out everything, very fast. If you turn them around give them lots of TLC!!:D

pakalasa

Another thing I noticed is kind of a mucous through the scour. Like it was coming from the lining of the stomach. Anyone else notice this? It might be a tell-tale sign.

bob charles

seems allot of a professionals were asleep at the wheel around these parts about rumen fluke. Its been a serious problem around here for the last 2 years. lost an animal last week that was treated for rumen fluke on the 25/8/12, may not be rumen fluke but she died out of the blue. her two comrades were also showing signs of all not being right so dosed the bunch of animals again. Definitely have done twice as much dosing and still problems. its just the year so, its a belt and braces approach here for the last 6 months

greysides

pakalasa wrote: »

Another thing I noticed is kind of a mucous through the scour. Like it was coming from the lining of the stomach. Anyone else notice this? It might be a tell-tale sign.

Mucus comes from the hind gut. Would suggest coccidiosis to me but it can be found in other causes of scour too.

richie123

pakalasa wrote: »

Are we over panicking about this whole "Stomach Fluke" thing. I don't think it is as widespread as people think.
Jasus, a lot of people don't even do them for liver fluke.:(

sent off 15 dung samples the other day all positive for rumen fluke but unusually no liver fluke so yes its a big prob this year.

pakalasa

pakalasa wrote: »

Are we over panicking about this whole "Stomach Fluke" thing. I don't think it is as widespread as people think.
Jasus, a lot of people don't even do them for liver fluke.:(

Well, I stand corrected on that one.:rolleyes:

barryoc1

The posts in this thread have got me worried. Dosing this years calves this weekend. About 6-9 months old. They are still out on grass. Will be out on grass with a bale of silage in feeder also for next 8 weeks or so. Did them with Albex 4 weeks ago. Tend to use this alot and dont want to use again because of potential immunity build up. Would you recommend i do them with Zanil, despite they being out or would you recommend i do them with another fluke and worm dose or perhaps an injection. I presume i would want to be still doing them with something that covers worms. Have used the injection Animec Super during the summer as a change from Albex.
Cheers for any advice.

Black Smoke

barryoc1 wrote: »

The posts in this thread have got me worried. Dosing this years calves this weekend. About 6-9 months old. They are still out on grass. Will be out on grass with a bale of silage in feeder also for next 8 weeks or so. Did them with Albex 4 weeks ago. Tend to use this alot and dont want to use again because of potential immunity build up. Would you recommend i do them with Zanil, despite they being out or would you recommend i do them with another fluke and worm dose or perhaps an injection. I presume i would want to be still doing them with something that covers worms. Have used the injection Animec Super during the summer as a change from Albex.
Cheers for any advice.

Well, I'm much in the same boat as you. All animals housed at this stage. Absolutely no sign of scour or any other symptom of illness, in any of the animals. Cows in good condition having weaned all calves 6 weeks earlier than usual, and put cows of good grass.
Only little worry, is weanlings, as a bunch definitely well back weight wise, from previous years. One or two look a bit poorly maybe. Sort of stunted a bit, and pot bellied a little:(
Been watch and reading this thread carefully, and finally I have cracked :rolleyes:
Going to dose the weanlings with Levafas next week end, and I will be really interested to see how the two pot bellied calves, perform in the next couple of months:)

Timmaay

richie123 wrote: »

sent off 15 dung samples the other day all positive for rumen fluke but unusually no liver fluke so yes its a big prob this year.

Sorry if it has been posted in the thread already, but who did ya sent them off to do the test on, and how much did it set you back? Does the test tell you if its mature fluke also?

just do it

richie123 wrote: »

sent off 15 dung samples the other day all positive for rumen fluke but unusually no liver fluke so yes its a big prob this year.

but that doesn't necessarily mean you're a rumen fluke problem. This is the big problem with it, how to diagnose it.

just do it

greysides wrote: »

Not sure if it's been posted or not but the AHI leaflet on Rumen fluke is here.

Well worth reading and in plain english I'm glad to say. The final line highlighted in a text box:


Do not treat unless clinical signs are present

richie123

Timmaay wrote: »

Sorry if it has been posted in the thread already, but who did ya sent them off to do the test on, and how much did it set you back? Does the test tell you if its mature fluke also?

paralabs portumna he then emails the info to my vet who would under stand the results better than i would e.g.the level of egg concentration etc but to be honest its a minefield!!6 to 7 euro a sample depending on how many you have.

richie123

just do it wrote: »

but that doesn't necessarily mean you're a rumen fluke problem. This is the big problem with it, how to diagnose it.

ya true sure maybe we should only treat animals that are showing clinical signs..theres no real proper answer to this whole debate.

Black Smoke

richie123 wrote: »

ya true sure maybe we should only treat animals that are showing clinical signs..theres no real proper answer to this whole debate.

All this willy, nilly, blanket dosing for rumen fluke, when and where the problem does not exist, will lead to serious problems in future. Resistance to the drugs.
There are whole districts in UK where sheep can no longer be reared, due to resistance to fluke and worm drenches, born out of bad treatment practices, through the years. It's estimated, these lands will never again be suitable for sheep. Same issue arising in Australia and NZ.

All these weekend vets on Boards, would want to be taken with a large grain of salt!