Are the Private Sector simply Jealous of the Public Sector?

PeteSanchez

MaceFace wrote: »

It may not be fair, but it is happening, and will continue.
As for the fallout of this, the Unions are loathed by the majority of those not in the public sector. For me anyway, anytime I hear the Unions leaders speak, I instantly take the opposite stance, not because I may agree with it, but I just assume what they say is pure propaganda to further their own aims.

Also, FF don't seem to be doing to bad out of it. The consensus is that Lenihan has played a stormer. No longer are we the bad egg of Europe.
I have a feeling that when the next election comes around, it will be a lot closer than people think.

And as for the original question - yes - private sector workers are jealous of those that are relatively unaffected by the recession in comparison in the same way everyone is jealous of others earning more than them.
That feeds a lot of the hatred, but there is an unfairness in society that needs to be fixed.

So you dont actually listen, you just assume.....:rolleyes:
And so do many many more. And that ladies and gentleman, says it all.

Fionnan Sheehan and Tony O'Reilly have won the war.

The_Honeybadger

MaceFace wrote: »

It may not be fair, but it is happening, and will continue.
As for the fallout of this, the Unions are loathed by the majority of those not in the public sector. For me anyway, anytime I hear the Unions leaders speak, I instantly take the opposite stance, not because I may agree with it, but I just assume what they say is pure propaganda to further their own aims.

Also, FF don't seem to be doing to bad out of it. The consensus is that Lenihan has played a stormer. No longer are we the bad egg of Europe.
I have a feeling that when the next election comes around, it will be a lot closer than people think.

And as for the original question - yes - private sector workers are jealous of those that are relatively unaffected by the recession in comparison in the same way everyone is jealous of others earning more than them.
That feeds a lot of the hatred, but there is an unfairness in society that needs to be fixed.

There have been cuts, but I was talking about paying what a job is worth not just taking 10% off the salary, believe me if they were to cut all PS salaries back to what they are actually worth they would have a hell of alot more cutting to do, tbh I don't see a case for paying any CO for example more than 22-26k if we were to go down that road, fairness is another matter. If those positions were to be advertised there would be a flood of excellent applicants (and even during the so called boom they filled them easily enough at that salary).

I agree that the next election is no foregone conclusion as of yet, if Lenihan recovers from his illness many people will prefer him as Taoiseach over Enda Kenny.

gandalf

PeteSanchez wrote: »

So you dont actually listen, you just assume.....:rolleyes:
And so do many many more. And that ladies and gentleman, says it all.

Fionnan Sheehan and Tony O'Reilly have won the war.

Or David Begg and Jack O'Connor have lost the war by firing out the same tired old rhetoric even though at the high of the madness they were feeding at the trough with all the people they are now vilifying.

gent9662

BrownianMotion wrote: »

The earlier poster might have been referring to the wonderful practice we have in this country of skipping the tiresome interview stage if you had a connection or two in the right place.

So unless you were one of the plebs (majority), then chances are you did fall into a PS job.

Here here...that's exactly what I mean't. I went for several interviews for Public service roles in the past and heard off the record after the interview that it was a formality for someone else already in the PS.

Look at some of these jobs...

Teacher/Gardai...Normally perfect jobs for a GAA footballer/hurler are you telling me that the foot in the door policy does not apply?

I know lots and lots of examples of people "falling" into nice cushy public service roles just because they know somebody or have a relation in there.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen in the private sector, it does. The only difference is that if the person is useless they are normally found out and sacked quicker. Admit it...we all had at least one teacher that was absolutely useless, that's just an example.

Highly Salami

murphaph wrote: »

Pete I just never heard of this taking the piss out of public sector workers on 30k during the boom? Perhaps it went on on building sites (perhaps you worked on them??) but not where I worked. People generally hadn't a clue how much or how little the PS worker was making and fewer people cared. They care now because the country is flat broke and that's really all there is to the debate.

suggestions on other things that could be debated:
1. How the country got itself into the current economic mess
2. How to get out of it
3. How to ensure country doesnt find itself in a similar situation in future.

Stark

Highly Salami wrote: »

suggestions on other things that could be debated:
1. How the country got itself into the current economic mess

Massive borrowing spree (mostly through mortgages) and massive campaign of vote purchasing during the Bertie-era paid for by transient taxes on that borrowing.

Highly Salami wrote: »

2. How to get out of it

Get spending back under control.
Focus on generating real wealth, not bubbles. That will take hard work, not like buying a house and leaving it sit there for a few years in the hopes of making a profit.

Highly Salami wrote: »

3. How to ensure country doesnt find itself in a similar situation in future.

I doubt you can. Human nature will always ensure we have cycles of boom and bust.

Tipp Man

Highly Salami wrote: »

suggestions on other things that could be debated:
1. How the country got itself into the current economic mess
2. How to get out of it
3. How to ensure country doesnt find itself in a similar situation in future.

Well its pretty simple, you just haven't rounded the circle

1. Country got itself into this mess in a couple of ways, government expenditure going out of control (on many things but mainly welfare, PS wages, number of PS workers), banks losing the run of themselves, regulators who slept on the job

2. Again fairly easy to say (harder to implement), reduce PS wages, reduce number of PS workers, reduce social welfare, make the country more employer friendly, promote business creation (indigenous), get back to attracting foreign manufacturing companies and create an environment to promote this

3. Again very simple and mostly related to above, control governement spending including welfare and the public service, ensure that regulators actually do their jobs, create a more sustainable tax base not based on property, and probably the hardest thing is to wean people off the stupid idea that property is the be all and end all and that you must bust your ass to buy a property as early as you possibly can

PeteSanchez

the amount of generalising and pure BS on here is something else! All private sector workers are underpaid, over worked, out of work, on the brink, exhausted, great work ethic etc etc etc….All public sector workers are Over paid, lazy, useless underworked etc etc.... what a load of absolute BS and its spouted by a lot more than a small minority! Tell me this, when a fireman rescues you from a blaze, a nurse runs from patient to patient to help, a guard arrests the local scumbag, a librarian helps you with that FYP, do they fall into that category? And what about the retail outlet private secotr worker who couldnt be arsed to help you in the shop, the insurance broker who lies to you about your best possible premium, your buiding foreman who says "yerra shure, it'll do or as I have seen in many cases, your site manager arranging a meeting with lower level staff to discuss problems on site, only to "forget" to show up.

MaceFace

PeteSanchez wrote: »

So you dont actually listen, you just assume.....:rolleyes:
And so do many many more. And that ladies and gentleman, says it all.

Fionnan Sheehan and Tony O'Reilly have won the war.

I do actually listen, but my instinct is telling me that what these guys are about to say is just garbage. No different than when we any other politicians speak, or even Michael O'Leary talk - we all know that they do not speak the truth - only their version, and as the Unions do not represent me, their views are generally not mine.

I wish I had a large organisation that was willing to threathen my employer with the closure of his business unless I kept my pay and conditions, but then again they don't seem to care for the private sector (google Green Isle Strike).

MysticalRain

PeteSanchez wrote: »

the amount of generalising and pure BS on here is something else! All private sector workers are underpaid, over worked, out of work, on the brink, exhausted, great work ethic etc etc etc….All public sector workers are Over paid, lazy, useless underworked etc etc.... what a load of absolute BS and its spouted by a lot more than a small minority! Tell me this, when a fireman rescues you from a blaze, a nurse runs from patient to patient to help, a guard arrests the local scumbag, a librarian helps you with that FYP, do they fall into that category? And what about the retail outlet private secotr worker who couldnt be arsed to help you in the shop, the insurance broker who lies to you about your best possible premium, your buiding foreman who says "yerra shure, it'll do or as I have seen in many cases, your site manager arranging a meeting with lower level staff to discuss problems on site, only to "forget" to show up.

I think you're missing a number of points...
PS workers in other countries do the same work for far less wages (and far less whining I might add too).
If someone in the private sector isn't providing a good enough service, I can take my money and go elsewhere.

Personally speaking, I don't actually mind the notion of paying guards, firemen and nurses a lot of money. Few people would disagree that those are tough jobs. But I do take issue with paying librarians 42K a year just to stack books.

Ash.J.Williams

PeteSanchez wrote: »

Now before I start, i will lay my cards on the table. I am an electrician working in Aughanish in Limerick.
Private Sector.

So, my question is this. Are private sector workers simply jealous of public sector workers and this is the main fuel that is keeping the current civil war amongst workers going?

Some people on here seem to think Public Sector workers should almost apologise for having a Government Job! Why? Because they themselves dont have one perhaps?

If many of you had a PS job, your view would be 100% different to your current one, no matter how much you might say otherwise. Its all about agendas.

5 years ago male clerical officers in their 30's in Local Authorities were sneered at, making their 30k ...

Now...they are hated. Just because they were not sacked!

So I ask again, is the real root of the antagonistic anti-ps hatred we see here, that private sector workers are jealous of Public Sector workers and thus are bitter?

I have always been jealous of them..have even gone back to college to see can i get in there one day.

changes

I don't understand why there is such an obsession with the public sector pay.

Last year the social welfare bill was 22 billion and the PS bill was 19 billion.

The overwhelming amount of coverage the PS get on here and in the media in comparison to the bigger problem of social welfare costs is amazing.

It can't be purely financial and that leads me to the conclusion that begrudgery plays a larger roll than people would care to admit.

Tackling the jobs issue and social welfare fraud could save this state 5bn or more a year.

Liam79

MysticalRain wrote: »

I think you're missing a number of points...
PS workers in other countries do the same work for far less wages (and far less whining I might add too).
If someone in the private sector isn't providing a good enough service, I can take my money and go elsewhere.

Personally speaking, I don't actually mind the notion of paying guards, firemen and nurses a lot of money. Few people would disagree that those are tough jobs. But I do take issue with paying librarians 42K a year just to stack books


Shows your ignorance of what you speak of. If you havent a clue what library workers do then dont have a go at them.

Firstly they do way more than stack books. Thats a minimal part of their job and in most libraries there is a specific porter for that job as opposed to library workers. 90% of librarian work is done away from the counter.

Oh and the avg salary of your standard library counter worker is 24-29K a year for the full time ones.

But hey, you just generalise away there with no knowledge of what your talking about Rain.

ei.sdraob

changes wrote: »

I don't understand why there is such an obsession with the public sector pay.

Last year the social welfare bill was 22 billion and the PS bill was 19 billion.

The overwhelming amount of coverage the PS get on here and in the media in comparison to the bigger problem of social welfare costs is amazing.

It can't be purely financial and that leads me to the conclusion that begrudgery plays a larger roll than people would care to admit.

Tackling the jobs issue and social welfare fraud could save this state 5bn or more a year.

you are right there are many other govt costs that have grown my leaps and bounds in order to buy votes, and yes these costs need to be reduced to 2003 or so levels as well


/puts on Front-line audience member hat

but your forgetting that cutting welfare would hurt the poorest in society
since were all socialists we cant have that now can we :P
cries a river

/takes off hat

woodseb

changes wrote: »

I don't understand why there is such an obsession with the public sector pay.

Last year the social welfare bill was 22 billion and the PS bill was 19 billion.

The overwhelming amount of coverage the PS get on here and in the media in comparison to the bigger problem of social welfare costs is amazing.

It can't be purely financial and that leads me to the conclusion that begrudgery plays a larger roll than people would care to admit.

Tackling the jobs issue and social welfare fraud could save this state 5bn or more a year.

for god's sake can people just stop pulling figures out of thin air....:rolleyes:

Welfare needs to be tackled and cuts are happening there but unfortunately the bill is going to keep rising as job losses continue. We are not going to solve the PS pay bill problem by pointing the finger at something else

gandalf

PeteSanchez wrote: »

the amount of generalising and pure BS on here is something else! All private sector workers are underpaid, over worked, out of work, on the brink, exhausted, great work ethic etc etc etc….All public sector workers are Over paid, lazy, useless underworked etc etc.... what a load of absolute BS and its spouted by a lot more than a small minority!

Some people generalise but the majority of comments are about the fact that the PS needs reform and is costing too much. It will hurt and if its left go on longer it will hurt more.

Tell me this, when a fireman rescues you from a blaze, a nurse runs from patient to patient to help, a guard arrests the local scumbag, a librarian helps you with that FYP, do they fall into that category?

We all appreciate the PS that work hard and do put in some cases their lives on the line. Unfortunately the books have to be balanced and hard decisions have to be made.

And what about the retail outlet private secotr worker who couldnt be arsed to help you in the shop

Normally that becomes apparent to his employers and they are no longer employed

the insurance broker who lies to you about your best possible premium

Did you complain to the company involved or did you go home or to the pub and bitch about it to the people around you. Again if that person is found to be lying and in breach of the company procedures and policy they will be fired.

your buiding foreman who says "yerra shure, it'll do or as I have seen in many cases, your site manager arranging a meeting with lower level staff to discuss problems on site, only to "forget" to show up.

As I know nothing about the construction industry I'll leave it to you.

I've had situations where i have arranged meetings with clients both in Government and Private Companys where the people I was supposed to meet have sent juniors. It happens, its rude but its a fact of life.

I'll give you another example I am on the Management Committee of the Apartments where I live. The former Management Agents were not doing their jobs and were not responding to people in a timely or productive fashion. We replaced them and got better value for money. But I had that choice, we don't have that choice with our PS. We have to hope the government are getting value for money for us as taxpayers and they clearly are not.

changes

woodseb wrote: »

for god's sake can people just stop pulling figures out of thin air....:rolleyes:

Welfare needs to be tackled and cuts are happening there but unfortunately the bill is going to keep rising as job losses continue. We are not going to solve the PS pay bill problem by pointing the finger at something else

You mean by pointing out a bigger problem???

You have your blinkers on woodseb, I never mentioned cutting social welfare i said welfare fraud. And it affects other government depts also such as the HSE. So it is not confined to the dept of social welfare.

A program on recently extimated it to be at 2 billon, it wouldn't surprise me if it was even higher. Considering it is rampant in social welfare claims, OPFP payments, rent all claims, medical card applications and on and on.

So long as people don't genuinely fear getting caught it will continue.

woodseb

changes wrote: »

You mean by pointing out a bigger problem???

As I said again, pointing out a bigger problem doesn't solve the fact the PS pay bill is too high

changes wrote: »

You have your blinkers on woodseb,

why do i have my blinkers on?....as I said

Welfare needs to be tackled and cuts are happening

If by some miracle we revolutionised the welfare system to save EUR5bln (which is 250% higher than any source you have shown)....it would still mean the PS bill is unsustainable unless we have real sustainable growth in the economy - and by the way we are cracking down on fraud in a big way but the state is still in massive debt

ei.sdraob

@changes

i illustrated the problem here




welfare and PS account for ~80% of above expenditure, both need to be tackled (among others)

until the above clearly illustrated in-balance is sorted were all fooked

changes

woodseb wrote: »

As I said again, pointing out a bigger problem doesn't solve the fact the PS pay bill is too high



why do i have my blinkers on?....as I said



If by some miracle we revolutionised the welfare system to save EUR5bln (which is 250% higher than any source you have shown)....it would still mean the PS bill is unsustainable unless we have real sustainable growth in the economy - and by the way we are cracking down on fraud in a big way but the state is still in massive debt

Thats not what i said either.

The 5bn was from job creation and social welfare fraud.

Ei.sdraob i agree something has to be done on all fronts its just how its done is the question. Mary Hanifan does not seem to be doing a great job in her dept.

woodseb

changes wrote: »

Thats not what i said either.

The 5bn was from job creation and social welfare fraud.

generating tax receipts/reducing welfare from job creation is stating the obvious....it is a lot easier said than done

What do we do in the meantime when we are running a massive deficit?

PeteSanchez

Dead tiger, re insurance companies
That IS company policy! Lying to their customers initially about best possible premiums is company policy

The_Honeybadger

woodseb wrote: »

generating tax receipts/reducing welfare from job creation is stating the obvious....it is a lot easier said than done

Has anybody heard a single sensible or realistic policy from government or opposition on this? The feel good factor alone would be such a boost if we saw jobs being created again.

changes

woodseb wrote: »

generating tax receipts/reducing welfare from job creation is stating the obvious....it is a lot easier said than done

What do we do in the meantime when we are running a massive deficit?

Put the hand out like greece


You say its stating the obvious and that its not that easy. But have FF done anything of note jobs wise.

The way they are carrying on i don't believe they are half as worried about where the money is coming from as some on here seem to be.

With their policy of driving down wages and all the problems that go along with that (more job losses, less tax intake etc) and the money they are able to gather for NAMA. They seem to be OK with the country facing another few years of heavy borrowing.

They must see the money coming from somewhere??

gandalf

PeteSanchez wrote: »

Dead tiger, re insurance companies
That IS company policy! Lying to their customers initially about best possible premiums is company policy

Can you prove that?

With Insurance companies as an example we can shop around. If you are silly enough to accept a quote without comparison then why shouldn't they maximise their profits. I certainly wouldn't call that lying.

As a taxpayer I don't have that choice with the Public Service. I have to be happy that Government as the people we choose to manage our affairs are ensuring we are getting value for our tax euros. Even you will agree with me that we certainly are not at that stage.

Amhran Nua

mickeyk wrote: »

Has anybody heard a single sensible or realistic policy from government or opposition on this? The feel good factor alone would be such a boost if we saw jobs being created again.

I'll put it to you like this, there was a story in the papers yesterday about two entrepreneurs that wanted to set up a wholesale pastry supply business, employing who knows how many people, five, ten anyway. They had the bona fides, one was an international award winning chef, and wholesalers had agreed to take half their output before they had even set up. They put in €100,000 each, and went to the bank for a loan of €150,000.

After a year waiting, they were told no.

For the amount of money being put into NAMA, you could fund four hundred thousand propositions like that, or one hundred and seventy thousand if the principals had no capital of their own. Thats hundreds of thousands of businesses, not jobs. On a direct employment basis, that would be millions of jobs. With that amount of employment running around, debt issues would clear themselves up.

changes wrote: »

The way they are carrying on i don't believe they are half as worried about where the money is coming from as some on here seem to be.

The thinking is they will corner the market on property in Ireland using taxpayer money, and since property prices have dropped by 40% plus, they must surely be able to rise by the same amount, which will net massive capital gains tax rewards as well as a neat profit, and the two Brians come out as heroes in boom II, Bertie's revenge.

The utter multilevel cross-referenced insanity of such a plan needs little explanation I feel.

woodseb

Amhran Nua wrote: »

For the amount of money being put into NAMA, you could fund four hundred thousand propositions like that, or one hundred and seventy thousand if the principals had no capital of their own. Thats hundreds of thousands of businesses, not jobs. On a direct employment basis, that would be millions of jobs. With that amount of employment running around, debt issues would clear themselves up.

do you think there is demand for 400,000 new business ventures in a country the size of ireland, 1 for every 10 men, women, child? It's a pretty big flaw in your proposition, don't you think? A huge majority of business would fail - excess credit leads to bad lending as we have seen before

As much as you may dislike NAMA, it is based on the fact that most property does have a long term value which is why we are able to secure lending on international markets for it.

Amhran Nua

woodseb wrote: »

do you think there is demand for 400,000 new business ventures in a country the size of ireland, 1 for every 10 men, women, child? It's a pretty big flaw in your proposition, don't you think? A huge majority of business would fail - excess credit leads to bad lending as we have seen before

Do you think thats what I meant, half a million pastry wholesale businesses? As I have stated before, if carefully targeted growth sectors are selected and promoted, we can maximise returns and create sustainable long term growth. Besides which, although that amount of stimulus would create hundreds of thousands of jobs, they need not all be small businesses.

woodseb wrote: »

As much as you may dislike NAMA, it is based on the fact that most property does have a long term value which is why we are able to secure lending on international markets for it.

We're able to secure lending from the ECB in a roundabout fashion that just about avoids violating its own regulations, after the lads went and spun a fine tale of woe and deposits vanishing. You can ask the Japanese about long term value if you'd like, and at least they had a manufacturing infrastructure to back that up.

WalterMitty

NAMA/abnking crisis might ultimately cost us 40billion NET in the end in a worst case scenario(might only cost 20biilion). The deficit in spending is 40billion EVERY TWO YEARS! NAMA is a one off hit when losses are eventually passed to taxpayer/national debt.

Welease

changes wrote: »

With their policy of driving down wages and all the problems that go along with that (more job losses, less tax intake etc)

I often see that stated, but it never made sense to me, so please explain..

How would driving down wages equate to more job losses? The vast majority of multi nationals arrived here primarily due to the low cost of doing business.. (and yes there are other factors involved).. The majority who have left have relocated to GAR or Eastern Europe which are the new low cost economies.

From my position, dropping wages (and utility costs etc.) would be an encouragement to creating new jobs in Ireland.