Atheism and Science

Turtwig

Just to pre-empt Chozo's sort of is there any other way for life without earthquakes? Why not give us a huge warning siren that cause a bell inside the earth to ring out. Or why not create life on Earth after the planet's tectonic activity has died down to less noticeable effects?

Right now our planet is exactly like you'd expect it to be if there was no intentional design involved. Earthquakes are necessary for known life alright, but if you're going to say that that is the only way for God create life, then He's been constrained by the laws of nature.

Zombrex

Malty_T wrote: »

Just to pre-empt Chozo's sort of is there any other way for life without earthquakes? Why not give us a huge warning siren that cause a bell inside the earth to ring out. Or why not create life on Earth after the planet's tectonic activity has died down to less noticeable effects?

Right now our planet is exactly like you'd expect it to be if there was no intentional design involved. Earthquakes are necessary for known life alright, but if you're going to say that that is the only way for God create life, then He's been constrained by the laws of nature.

Time and time again it comes back to this point, the universe looks like nothing is actively guiding it. Earthquakes just happen. Sometimes they destroy sometimes they create. Sometimes they create and destroy.

There is no rhyme or reason to it.

It takes a special kind of convoluted logic to get God, or an intelligence, into the picture and you end up with nonsense like "God works in mysterious ways"

liamw

Wicknight wrote: »

Time and time again it comes back to this point, the universe looks like nothing is actively guiding it.

Exactly, there's just no reason to invoke God at all. Chromo has to jump through hoops to try make his specific God fit with everything in the world. It just doesn't make ANY sense.

Sam Vimes

liamw wrote: »

Exactly, there's just no reason to invoke God at all. Chromo has to jump through hoops to try make his specific God fit with everything in the world. It just doesn't make ANY sense.

It really doesn't. People say that god works in mysterious ways or any number of variants of that but there are three characteristics that are not mysterious and that he is supposed to possess:

1. Omnibenevolence
2. Omnipotence
3. Omniscience

An omnibenevolent being that had a plan would by definition carry it out in the most benelovent way it possibly could. If the plan could succeed without suffering but the being allows suffering to happen anyway, the characteristic of omnibenevolence is negated.

An omnipotent and omniscient being by definition has the knowledge and the power to carry out the plan with infinite benevolence, ie no living being ever need suffer for the plan to succeed.

If there is a God it cannot possibly possess all three of those characteristics because suffering that is caused by both man and nature happens regularly.

And that's not even considering all the suffering that was directly commanded by a supposedly omnibenevolent being in the Old Testament.

Sam Vimes

Sam Vimes wrote: »

And that's not even considering all the suffering that was directly commanded by a supposedly omnibenevolent being in the Old Testament.

What I'd love to know is why didn't he just teleport the Jews out of Egypt?
Surely that would have been preferable to murdering thousands of innocent children.

robindch

Malty_T wrote: »

Just to pre-empt Chozo's sort of is there any other way for life without earthquakes? Why not give us a huge warning siren that cause a bell inside the earth to ring out.

That would require physical change to effect. Most of the christian deity's interaction is on the "spiritual" side of the dualistic divide, so to remain consistent with christian belief, an apologist has to explain why nobody receives any messages from god about an impending disaster. Or even something as obvious as "Boil the water before you feed it to the kid".

Of course, he could just suggest (in a solicited, or unsolicited manner) to christian bell-ringers, that they should ring the bells in the christian churches in a specific manner when an earthquake is due. In this way, not only would he remain consistent with dogma, but by selectively saving the physical lives of people within earshot of churches -- presumably mostly christians -- he'd be using evolution to increase the numbers of his own believers at the expense of the other deceased ones, while clearly demonstrating that he does answer prayers, as Jesus said he would.

There's an entire religious industry -- that of theodicy -- which is devoted to explaining away the Problem of Evil. Unfortunately, nobody but the religious believers themselves seems to find them all that convincing.

Ickle Magoo

Which only leaves a god that deliberately created a world in which suffering would exist. Who only interjects from time to time to create the odd miracle healing or whatever and then buggers off again leaving everyone else to the ravages of natural disaster, disease and crime without so much as a backwards glance...so rather than an all-knowing, all-powerful god, theists want us to pray for health and wellness on a lottery god in the hope he's feeling a bit generous that day?!

If gods intervention is entirely down to chance and my odds without a god is down to chance, what's the bloody point ~I just don't get it?!

Sam Vimes

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

If gods intervention is entirely down to chance and my odds without a god is down to chance, what's the bloody point ~I just don't get it?!

It's not down to chance, it's down to how much you love god and people who love god but suffer anyway didn't love him enough! :rolleyes:

Hence this picture:

Ickle Magoo

Sam Vimes wrote: »

It's not down to chance, it's down to how much you love god and people who love god but suffer anyway didn't love him enough! :rolleyes:

Which makes no sense. Eek on the pic!

If there really is a god then religious people would get some kind of preferential treatment, surely? It can't all be a case of life being exactly the same as it would be with or without god other than the promise of a ticket into a heaven that we don't actually know exists, can it?!

Sam Vimes

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Which makes no sense. Eek on the pic!

If there really is a god then religious people would get some kind of preferential treatment, surely? It can't all be a case of life being exactly the same as it would be with or without god other than the promise of a ticket into a heaven that we don't actually know exists, can it?!

It seems so. Strange I know

monosharp

chozometroid wrote: »

Are you dead serious, or just pretending to be brain dead?

You are the one who is after telling me that the word 'die' in a particular sentence in genesis means 'spiritually die' and not 'die'.

Is there a footnote somewhere I haven't seen which explains when 'die' means something else in certain places in the bible ?

Galvasean

monosharp wrote: »

God can do ANYTHING he could make the planet out of milk chocolate!

Pfft, then we'd just eat our planet and have nowhere to live! God wouldtehn have to kill us randomly with natural disasters to prevent this from happening.
Hey, you don't suppose that's kind of what he's doing now?
"Hey, stop poluting the planet!" *smite*

Turtwig

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm sure Malty Zillah or Robin will remember, but there is a term for that, where basically everything supports your position, even if it actually doesn't.

Rationalization?
Awful word to describe the concept if you ask me.

Zillah

chozometroid wrote: »

God is not what you want Him to be, correct.

This has nothing to do with what I think of God. I don't believe there is a God. We're talking about your beliefs. Do me a favour and address these bite sized chunks:

1 - Is God all powerful?

2 - Is God all loving?

3 - If you answer yes to the above, then how is it possible that the planet constantly tries (frequently with success) to kill us?

Again, we're not talking about what I think about God, we're talking about what you think about God.

Turtwig

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

I am a scientist. :P

Kinda feel like beating my self up for not thinking of this video yesterday.

Rev Hellfire

Classic.

monosharp

Malty_T wrote: »

Kinda feel like beating my self up for not thinking of this video yesterday.

Sounds like a cross between Kent Hovind's dissertation and JC's posts.