Private workers arent prepared to take a pay cut either!

PoleStar

This post was prompted by reading a letter in the Irish Independent yesterday.

It was the usual giving out about how public sector workers wrongly complained about taking pay cuts when another sad example of the reality was in the news just 2 days ago, ie 200 jobs lost in Dunleer.

The irony is, the private sector is exactly the same when it comes to not accepting pay cuts, and this is exactly why those people lost their jobs.

The compnay tried to negotiate pay cuts to save the workers jobs and this was rejected and thus 200 people had to be fired.

The same thing happened with Dell in Limerick before they relocated to eastern Europe. In the years coming up to their relocation they tried to negotiate lower costs ie cut pay with the workers. Again, this was rejected by the staff. As a result, they all lost their jobs.

Now this galls me that the private sector have the cheek to give out about public sector workers who complain about their pay cuts when the same happens in the private sector. IF the people in the private sector were so in tune and aware of the recession, surely these people would say, well yes maybe we should take a pay cut instead of losing all our jobs.

The hypocrisy is pretty irritating.

Sundy

Your missing the point that these people lost their jobs becuase of refusing to take a pay cut.

Its an idea though maybe the government should fire the public servants who wont take a pay cut then everything would be fair!

Thread fail

phill106

PoleStar wrote: »

This post was prompted by reading a letter in the Irish Independent yesterday.

It was the usual giving out about how public sector workers wrongly complained about taking pay cuts when another sad example of the reality was in the news just 2 days ago, ie 200 jobs lost in Dunleer.

The irony is, the private sector is exactly the same when it comes to not accepting pay cuts, and this is exactly why those people lost their jobs.

The compnay tried to negotiate pay cuts to save the workers jobs and this was rejected and thus 200 people had to be fired.

The same thing happened with Dell in Limerick before they relocated to eastern Europe. In the years coming up to their relocation they tried to negotiate lower costs ie cut pay with the workers. Again, this was rejected by the staff. As a result, they all lost their jobs.

Now this galls me that the private sector have the cheek to give out about public sector workers who complain about their pay cuts when the same happens in the private sector. IF the people in the private sector were so in tune and aware of the recession, surely these people would say, well yes maybe we should take a pay cut instead of losing all our jobs.

The hypocrisy is pretty irritating.

The hypocrisy is indeed irritating, but it is yours!
Yes some private sector employees in companies refused paycuts, and some companies shut down.
So do the math. Employer=Ireland. Employee = Public Sector. What do you think happens if public sector pay isnt cut?

RasTa

Ah the good work of the Unions strike again.

picpress

phill106 wrote: »

The hypocrisy is indeed irritating, but it is yours!
Yes some private sector employees in companies refused paycuts, and some companies shut down.
So do the math. Employer=Ireland. Employee = Public Sector. What do you think happens if public sector pay isnt cut?

I think you will find that the public service has taken cuts and had no choice in this.

I wonder am I now going to get back some of my pension levy now that my future pension has been cut due to the cut in my basic since Decembers budget.

phill106

picpress wrote: »

I think you will find that the public service has taken cuts and has no choice in this.

I wonder am I now going to get back some of my pension levy now that my future pension has been cut due to the cut in my basic since decembers budget.

Oh i know it was cut, thats why i said what do you think would happen if it isnt cut. Suppose that should have been hadn't been cut. Round 1 to grammar police!

picpress

phill106 wrote: »

Oh i know it was cut, thats why i said what do you think would happen if it isnt cut. Suppose that should have been hadn't been cut. Round 1 to grammar police!

Ok Phill106 how much has your salary been cut? Or are you one of those who is happy for everyone else to take a cut except themselves!!

dohda

I work in the private sector. From 2007 my pay is down a total of 28%.
I am barely in the higher tax bracket so this was a huge loss.
Alternative was to be out of work.
What's the alternative for the public sector?
Strike, safe in the knowledge that you will still have ajob the next day?
The private sector does not have this luxury.

picpress

picpress wrote: »

Ok Phill106 how much has your salary been cut? Or are you one of those who is happy for everyone else to take a cut except themselves!!

The silence is deafening:rolleyes:

Helix

dohda wrote: »

I work in the private sector

I am barely in the higher tax bracket

well for some, what about all the civil servants on under €27-28k gross?

do you think theyre well able for all the cuts theyre after getting or something?

Helix

Helix wrote: »

well for some, what about all the civil servants on under €27-28k gross?

do you think theyre well able for all the cuts theyre after getting or something?

They won't lose their jobs.

They have a gauranteed pension.

Simple.

Helix

rarnes1 wrote: »

They won't lose their jobs.

They have a gauranteed pension.

Simple.

the pension is rubbish at that level

and you cant opt out coz they need your money to pay everyone elses pension

Helix

Helix wrote: »

the pension is rubbish at that level

and you cant opt out coz they need your money to pay everyone elses pension

But their job is safe.

It's better than 200 quid a week.

Helix

€200 with rent allowance medical card and not having to travel compared to commuting and paying rent you mean?

MarkR

picpress wrote: »

The silence is deafening:rolleyes:

It's not that deafening, he's just not camped out on the internet, most likely because of his two kids.

Phil's pay cut has been 100% so far, through redundancy. He's then taken more then a 20% drop just to make ends meet in a lower skilled job, and have a bit of pride.

Phil's brother

Helix

Helix wrote: »

€200 with rent allowance medical card and not having to travel compared to commuting and paying rent you mean?

What's your point? Unemployement is a better option than a gauranteed job paying 27-28k a year?

Helix

rarnes1 wrote: »

What's your point? Unemployement is a better option than a gauranteed job paying 27-28k a year?

depending on the circumstances of the person yeah it could well be

you cant really cut public sector wages any more unless you leave the bottom end of it completely alone without slicing the ridiculously high dole ireland has

phill106

picpress wrote: »

Ok Phill106 how much has your salary been cut? Or are you one of those who is happy for everyone else to take a cut except themselves!!

Originally Posted by picpress
The silence is deafening

mark wrote:

It's not that deafening, he's just not camped out on the internet, most likely because of his two kids.

Phil's pay cut has been 100% so far, through redundancy. He's then taken more then a 20% drop just to make ends meet in a lower skilled job, and have a bit of pride.

Phil's brother

Thanks mark, i was actually minding my kids so my wife could sleep after being up all night with the baby. She doesnt get much sleep now that i work nights for low pay.
100% pay drop enough for you? Made redundant. No option of pay cuts or anything. No work for 9 months. Next question?
Was that way for 9 months, applying for any job going. I worked in IT, but applied for jobs going door to door hawking charity donations, call centres, driving vans, retail. I got off my posterior and went looking for jobs not by skillset, but any job i could actually be employed to do!

Helix

Helix wrote: »

depending on the circumstances of the person yeah it could well be

you cant really cut public sector wages any more unless you leave the bottom end of it completely alone without slicing the ridiculously high dole ireland has

I bet none of these public sector workers will give up their jobs though?

The guys at the top need to be cut thats for sure.

More cuts are certain though, for all.

Helix

rarnes1 wrote: »

I bet none of these public sector workers will give up their jobs though?

The guys at the top need to be cut thats for sure.

More cuts are certain though, for all.

its the ones in the middle who need to be cut, there are more of them and an awful lot of them make an obscene amount of money purely because theyve been there so long

if the bottom rung of the civil service is cut, it literally wont be worth the effort of going to work for some people because theyll be better off on the ridiculously generous dole available to them

phill106

I need to go to sleep now, in case anyone is looking for me......

Guell72

I refused to take a pay cut twice. Last year I refused and was made redundant. I got almost €40,000 redundancy. Took a holiday for 3 months and then after starting to look for another job had one and some other offers in 2 weeks. Paying more than my previous job. I was so much better off after refusing the cut, even though i was a bit worried at the time (should i or shouldnt i), there was really nothing for me to worry about.

Recently my new employer asked us to take cuts. I said "NOT A CHANCE", even though i would not get redundancy this time. Some people said yes. Nobody was fired and all of us who refused to take a cut are still there along with those who did take a cut. Which was the better option? Stay with a cut or stay with no cut.

A lot of employers are using the recession as an excuse to cut wages instead of profits. If you are in a job where you are employable elsewhere, then just refuse the cut. It probably costs them more to replace you than leave you alone. If you arent very employable anywhere else then you just have to take it up the arse.

The public sector can take all the pain as far as im concerned if it means less tax increases for me, but i wouldnt waste my time wishing ill on them either. Im better off than I would be in the pulic sector because I made sure i am employable. If i had a dead end job i might begrudge them their condidtions, but i dont.

Helix

Helix wrote: »

its the ones in the middle who need to be cut, there are more of them and an awful lot of them make an obscene amount of money purely because theyve been there so long

if the bottom rung of the civil service is cut, it literally wont be worth the effort of going to work for some people because theyll be better off on the ridiculously generous dole available to them

The pensions are a major issue too, far too high. They need to be slashed again.

Helix

rarnes1 wrote: »

The pensions are a major issue too, far too high. They need to be slashed again.

before anything is done to reduce them, there should be an initial opt out period for anyone who is interested

youd find a LOT of people who dont intend on spending their live in the public sector pulling out

phill106

I was replying to another post here that picpress did here, but for some strange reason deleted... Cant think why.....
s(h)e? (didnt check, no offence meant either way) said they were sorry that my circumstances had changed so much since this post in january


I dont see how posting that helped your case? I was still out of work for 9 months. Still in low paid job now working nights. Only difference is i tried to better my circumstances by working 2 jobs (legally).
Yes thats right. I will now be working p/t in my current job, and p/t in other job in IT, which hopefully will go full time on a few months.

Is it supposed to shame me or something that i asked what would happen if x y or z happened? I certainly didnt think my current employer would go along with cutting my hours to suit the new arrangement, so i had to plan for the alternative in the hope of better future.

So yes i wanted to work in my skilled field and i was willing to take a paycut for long term better prospects. So sue me.

testicle

PoleStar wrote: »

The same thing happened with Dell in Limerick before they relocated to eastern Europe. In the years coming up to their relocation they tried to negotiate lower costs ie cut pay with the workers. Again, this was rejected by the staff. As a result, they all lost their jobs.

Exactly who did Dell negotiate with?

ilovelamp2000

dohda wrote: »

I work in the private sector. From 2007 my pay is down a total of 28%.
I am barely in the higher tax bracket so this was a huge loss.
Alternative was to be out of work.
What's the alternative for the public sector?
Strike, safe in the knowledge that you will still have ajob the next day?
The private sector does not have this luxury.

You were obviously overpaid and contributed significantly to the uncompetitiveness that developed in the economy. So well done for taking your medicine.

bnt

I think some folks are missing the point here, slightly. When an employer's accountant tells them they have to cut back on costs or go bankrupt, the bills have to come down, or else. Salaries and associated expenses are the big costs associated with running a business, and you only have so much to spend on that: cutting people can hurt the business as well as the employees, so why does cutting salaries face such opposition?

Private sector pay has been stagnant for years, sometimes increasing below the rate of inflation i.e. a net decrease. After years of above-inflation pay rises for public sector workers, is it any surprise those salaries are now under pressure? The scandal is not that there are pay cuts, it's that they are being unfairly concentrated at the low end of the public sector salary scale.

PoleStar

Sundy wrote: »

Your missing the point that these people lost their jobs becuase of refusing to take a pay cut.

Did you actually read my post? Because that actually was the whole point.

Sundy wrote: »

Its an idea though maybe the government should fire the public servants who wont take a pay cut then everything would be fair!

But public servants have taken 2 pay cuts already.

PoleStar

phill106 wrote: »

The hypocrisy is indeed irritating, but it is yours!
Yes some private sector employees in companies refused paycuts, and some companies shut down.
So do the math. Employer=Ireland. Employee = Public Sector. What do you think happens if public sector pay isnt cut?

Public pay has been cut, twice in the last year, where have you been?

PoleStar

testicle wrote: »

Exactly who did Dell negotiate with?

They negotiated with staff to try to lower wages.

Staff said no.

Dell said, your choice, we're off!

phantom_lord

PoleStar wrote: »

Public pay has been cut, twice in the last year, where have you been?

A lot done, more to do imo.

dohda

Rosco1982 wrote: »

You were obviously overpaid and contributed significantly to the uncompetitiveness that developed in the economy. So well done for taking your medicine.

I'm not sure where you get off saying I was overpaid. I work damn hard for my money on a rotating shift of days, nights and weekend. Factory open 363 days a year. Wages went from 41000 to 29520 thats before tax and includes shift allowance.

So how hard do you work for your money? You have no right to make statements like that when you know nothing about me, my work or how much I get paid.

PoleStar

phantom_lord wrote: »

A lot done, more to do imo.

You are damn right! Only one in 5 private companies have cut salaries.

Perhaps more tax for the private sector then would be a fair way to spread the pain evenly!

THe point (which the thread is getting away from) is that the phoney public private debate is exactly that, phoney.

Whether you are public or private, everyone is feeling the pain, everyone thinks its the other sides fault.

We should all stick together and blame the real culprits, the government.

Odysseus

dohda wrote: »

I'm not sure where you get off saying I was overpaid. I work damn hard for my money on a rotating shift of days, nights and weekend. Factory open 363 days a year. Wages went from 41000 to 29520 thats before tax and includes shift allowance.

So how hard do you work for your money? You have no right to make statements like that when you know nothing about me, my work or how much I get paid.

Does the same not apply to public sector workers? People here just state they are paid too much, nobody knows my profession or qualifications, but as a public sector worker I am told I earn too much.

Edit:
The below is such an example, wide sweeping generalisations about the public sector. Many teams are down bodies, my own team is down by two and it looks like we will lose two more as the are on temp contracts. So we are not bloated.

phantom_lord

PoleStar wrote: »

You are damn right! Only one in 5 private companies have cut salaries.

Perhaps more tax for the private sector then would be a fair way to spread the pain evenly!

THe point (which the thread is getting away from) is that the phoney public private debate is exactly that, phoney.

Whether you are public or private, everyone is feeling the pain, everyone thinks its the other sides fault.

We should all stick together and blame the real culprits, the government.

w/e, the public service is bloated, overpaid, and has ridic inefficient working practices. and blaming the gov wont do any good, wage cuts across the board are necessary for any sort of recovery.

dohda

Odysseus wrote: »

Does the same not apply to public sector workers? People here just state they are paid too much, nobody know my profession or qualifications, but as a public sector worker I am told I earn too much.

Not by me. I do not think that your pay should be cut. A lot of my family work in the public sector and are finding it tough with the new pay cuts. My initial post was in response to the person that was going on about how no one in the private sector took pay cuts. Which is just as annoying to me as all the comments about how you earn too much are to you.

Odysseus

dohda wrote: »

Not by me. I do not think that your pay should be cut. A lot of my family work in the public sector and are finding it tough with the new pay cuts. My initial post was in response to the person that was going on about how no one in the private sector took pay cuts. Which is just as annoying to me as all the comments about how you earn too much are to you.

Fair enough, I know people who have and other who haven't. Ok your not engaging in those type of posts, but most of the posts here state the same type of comment that you felt was out of order. So whilst I used your post to make my point. My main point was that the people posting the wide generalisations are open to the same type of comment. They do not know peoples individual positions, the work they do etc, but feel they have the right to make sweeping generalisations.

Kristopherus

phantom_lord wrote: »

w/e, the public service is bloated, overpaid, and has ridic inefficient working practices. and blaming the gov wont do any good, wage cuts across the board are necessary for any sort of recovery.

Another wild, sweeping & inaccurate statement about the public service. :eek:

godtabh

picpress wrote: »

Ok Phill106 how much has your salary been cut? Or are you one of those who is happy for everyone else to take a cut except themselves!!

How much has yours been cut?

Mine has been cut by 46% and I earn less now than I did five years ago when I started. I'd happy take your pay cut and do your job.

Son Of A Vidic

I moved from the HSE to the private sector, in the process I took a 27% pay cut. You know what thought, just to be away from it, being my own boss and to be able to work efficiently and unhindered......made it priceless.

Odysseus

godtabh wrote: »

How much has yours been cut?

Mine has been cut by 46% and I earn less now than I did five years ago when I started. I'd happy take your pay cut and do your job.

One again the general response I have see give to public service workers when they speak about wages cuts is that they have chosen to work in their profession. Maybe the same should be applied to everybody across the board. You must been one of those people who are capable of doing everyone jobs, possessing the skills of every profession.

phantom_lord

Odysseus wrote: »

Does the same not apply to public sector workers? People here just state they are paid too much, nobody knows my profession or qualifications, but as a public sector worker I am told I earn too much.

Edit:
The below is such an example, wide sweeping generalisations about the public sector. Many teams are down bodies, my own team is down by two and it looks like we will lose two more as the are on temp contracts. So we are not bloated.

Of course it's a generalisation, I'm not talking about individuals, I'm not talking about your team, but I don't think you can dispute the validity of what I said.

LionelNashe

Odysseus wrote: »

Fair enough, I know people who have and other who haven't. Ok your not engaging in those type of posts, but most of the posts here state the same type of comment that you felt was out of order. So whilst I used your post to make my point. My main point was that the people posting the wide generalisations are open to the same type of comment. They do not know peoples individual positions, the work they do etc, but feel they have the right to make sweeping generalisations.

Kristopherus wrote: »

Another wild, sweeping & inaccurate statement about the public service. :eek:

Lets not tar all generalisations with the same brush. Some wide, sweeping generalisations are actually true, generally, in spite of specific counter-examples.

Odysseus

phantom_lord wrote: »

Of course it's a generalisation, I'm not talking about individuals, I'm not talking about your team, but I don't think you can dispute the validity of what I said.

So wide sweeping generalisations are to rule the day then, we wouldn't want little things like specifics to put all the nice rants about us lazy, money grabbing public sector workers.

phantom_lord

You can hardly discuss something of that nature without generalisations. It may not apply to you as an individual, but you can't dispute that it applies to the organisation in general.

dohda

Rosco1982 wrote: »

You were obviously overpaid and contributed significantly to the uncompetitiveness that developed in the economy. So well done for taking your medicine.

I fail to see how this comment in relation to my earlier post can be interpreted as a generalisation by the way.

LionelNashe

Odysseus wrote: »

So wide sweeping generalisations are to rule the day then, we wouldn't want little things like specifics to put all the nice rants about us lazy, money grabbing public sector workers.

Of course people can speak generally, if they want to speak about something that they believe is generally the case. Citing counter-examples of specific teams or departments, or specific jobs that are difficult, doesn't disprove the argument that there are huge inefficiencies in the public service.

testicle

PoleStar wrote: »

They negotiated with staff to try to lower wages.

Staff said no.

Dell said, your choice, we're off!

So they negotiated individually with 3000 odd staff?

LionelNashe

testicle wrote: »

So they negotiated individually with 3000 odd staff?

Don't answer, Polestar ! Its a trick question!!