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Are pharmacists not allowed make any money?

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    #32
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    RobFowl wrote: »
    The cost price of drugs are far cheaper in the UK. The cost price of the cheapest generic ranitidine in Ireland (28 pack) is €8.56.
    why ? where does that money go to ? especially seeing as this was the same pharmacy chain. i mean presumably they buy generic ranitidine from the same supplier. so what is there a cosy little arrangement between the pharmacsits and the manufacturer not challenge higher costs to ireland.

    is this like the cervical casncer vaccine where if you actually negotiate the price comes down from 16mil; to 3 mil.

    i'm sorry my friend. there is no way in hell it actually costs that much extra to import to ireland. so either the pharmacists are screwing us or they are allowing the drug companies to screw us. i grant you the little guy phramacsit has not much power. but big chains like this do, and obviously go along with it


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    #33
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    opinion guy wrote: »
    why ? where does that money go to ? especially seeing as this was the same pharmacy chain. i mean presumably they buy generic ranitidine from the same supplier. so what is there a cosy little arrangement between the pharmacsits and the manufacturer not challenge higher costs to ireland.

    is this like the cervical casncer vaccine where if you actually negotiate the price comes down from 16mil; to 3 mil.

    i'm sorry my friend. there is no way in hell it actually costs that much extra to import to ireland. so either the pharmacists are screwing us or they are allowing the drug companies to screw us. i grant you the little guy phramacsit has not much power. but big chains like this do, and obviously go along with it

    Why is an entirely different discussion and there was a thread about it here some months ago. You can find it using the search option.

    Generally drugs are cheaper in the UK because it is a larger market and also because the NHS buys 95% + of the drugs sold there so can negotiate vastly better deals.

    There are different drug licencing agencies in Ireland and the UK as well so some drugs are avaialble there and not here and vice versa.

    The extra money goes to the drug companies BTW.


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    #34
    anotherlostie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭anotherlostie


    I've already explained this elsewhere, but in a nutshell: Ireland is a small market. The cheap generic manufacturers would not be able to sell enough volume to justify the setup costs of getting their products onto the Irish market (registering product with IMB, distribution..) In the UK they have 60 million people as a market, making it easier to recoup the costs, and MAKE A PROFIT.


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    #35
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    opinion guy wrote: »
    B<snip>x.

    Last time I was in a phamracy I spotted some nonprescription generic 28 pack ranitidine behind the counter. i asked how much it was - i was told 12EUR and ooooowhat a deal is that. B<SNIP>X. I bought a 6 pack of ranitidine in th euk for 0.97p last year. So for 28 that would have been about 4.50 pounds or 6 EUR give of take.

    so no i have no sympathy for the pharmacists when they go telling me what a deal it is whilst they ride me

    Edit - oh and it was in the SAME pharmacy chain

    Pharmacies in Ireland, regardless of whether they are a subsidiary of a British or other pharmacy chain, are obliged by law to purchase their supplies from wholesalers licenced by the Irish Medicines Board, and those supplies must be products that themselves are licenced by the Irish Medicines Board*.
    Similarly the pharmacy in Britain must buy their supplies from a UK-licenced wholesaler, and it must be a UK-licenced product.
    Therefore, the product you saw for 97p in the UK is more than likely not available to be purchased by the pharmacy in Ireland, and even if it was, the chance that it would be available from the wholesaler at the same price as in the UK.
    So, while it is undoubtedly unfair that ranitidine tablets are much more expensive here, it's not the pharmacist who's riding you.

    (* Or, occasionally, by the EU-wide equivalent, but that's not relevant in this particular case)


    And, putting on my Mods hat for a moment; please moderate (or self-censor) your language. Thank you.


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    #36
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    opinion guy wrote: »
    why ? where does that money go to ? especially seeing as this was the same pharmacy chain. i mean presumably they buy generic ranitidine from the same supplier. so what is there a cosy little arrangement between the pharmacsits and the manufacturer not challenge higher costs to ireland.
    No, there isn't. See my reply to your other post.
    opinion guy wrote: »
    is this like the cervical casncer vaccine where if you actually negotiate the price comes down from 16mil; to 3 mil.

    i'm sorry my friend. there is no way in hell it actually costs that much extra to import to ireland. so either the pharmacists are screwing us or they are allowing the drug companies to screw us. i grant you the little guy phramacsit has not much power. but big chains like this do, and obviously go along with it

    No, actually it's nothing like the cervical cancer vaccine. I'll explain why in a separate post in a minute.
    Why do you say the pharmacists are allowing the drug companies to screw you? Sorry, but that's just a stupid thing to say.


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    #37
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    opinion guy wrote: »
    is this like the cervical casncer vaccine where if you actually negotiate the price comes down from 16mil; to 3 mil.

    First of all, the original price wasn't €16M, it was €10M. I didn't hear any mention of €16M until they announced the great discount that Mary Harney had negotiated for us.

    Secondly, you have to compare like with like: the original €10M programme was to vaccinate girls in 1st, 2nd and 3rd year of secondary school.
    The new €3M programme is to vaccinate girls in 1st year.

    So, admittedly, the new programme is only 30% the cost of the old one.
    But, unfortunately, the new one is only 33% the size of the old one too.

    So, if you do the maths, the fantastic discount Mary negoatiated for us was 9.0909 (recurring) %. Not to be sneezed at, but certainly not 16 down to 3.


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    #38
    sesna
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭sesna


    opinion guy wrote: »

    i'm sorry my friend. there is no way in hell it actually costs that much extra to import to ireland. so either the pharmacists are screwing us or they are allowing the drug companies to screw us. i grant you the little guy phramacsit has not much power. but big chains like this do, and obviously go along with it

    Shocker! Its cheaper to buy alcohol, cars, houses, etc in the Uk (and Spain for that matter). Let whinge about that too.

    Pharmacists allowing the drug companies to screw us now? Ah of course... its all the pharmacists fault.

    If you checked the most basic facts you would discover that pharmacists have been calling for a reduction in the price of on-patent medicines for years and have NOTHING to do with the price manufacturers are charging (and price differential with other countries) for medicines.
    You can blame the inept government (DoHC) who negotiates this.

    Also if you read a little deeper into nonsense HSE spin of their great achievement of getting a 40% reduction, on just a small percentage of medicines, you would see this is nothing more than a purely cynical ploy by drug companies to offer a minor concession on medicines they make little profit on, whilst at the same time protecting their rip-off on-patent medicines... Another triumph for useless Mary Harney and the ill-informed, media gullible Irish patient.


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    #39
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Victor wrote: »
    People regularly spend well north of €100 in pharmacies. Just because its paid by a medical card or other scheme does not mean its not a sale. How often will someone spend €100 in a café*?

    Correct, but don't forget that those GMS sales are on a 0% markup, flat-fee-only basis.


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    #40
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,352 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    locum-motion wrote: »
    Correct, but don't forget that those GMS sales are on a 0% markup, flat-fee-only basis.
    And how much is this fee? More than the €6 the café gets for the coffee and sandwich?


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    #41
    sesna
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭sesna


    Victor wrote: »
    And how much is this fee? More than the €6 the café gets for the coffee and sandwich?

    Victor, you obviously have absolutely no idea considering you're comparing a café to a pharmacy.


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    #42
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,352 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    sesna wrote: »
    Victor, you obviously have absolutely no idea considering you're comparing a café to a pharmacy.
    And you seem to have no interest in developing the discussion if you won't answer the question.

    I didn't start the comparison.
    gpf101 wrote: »
    It is almost something to be ashamed of taking money from people to provide a service yet when I go buy my lunch somewhere for €12 I am paying at least a 50% markup. ?


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    #43
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Victor wrote: »
    And how much is this fee? More than the €6 the café gets for the coffee and sandwich?

    Depends on dispensing volumes, but basically it's 5 at the beginning of the month, 4 in the middle, and 3.50 at the end.

    So let me give you an example, since you're so fond of the fact that some sales will be over €100.
    A month's supply of the commonly prescribed psychiatric medicine Zyprexa 10mg costs €138 for the pharmacy to buy, less whatever discount they get.
    Since virtually all the patients on it have Medical Cards, the pharmacy gets paid (138 x 0.935) + 3.50 if the patient comes in towards the end of the month. That's 132.53.
    So therefore, if the discount the pharmacy gets is less than 9.75%, the pharmacy LOSES money on that transaction.
    If the discount is 10%, the gross profit is a whole 6.71%. Only very big accounts (you know, the ones that have very many shops) get a ~10% discount. Your independant local pharmacy doesn't.
    73% of the medicine in the country is dispensed on the GMS scheme.

    So, I apologise that those people who do have to pay, have to pay more than people in other countries do.

    But, as long as such a fcuked up system as the one we have exists, where pharmacies are expected to make a loss on some of their dispensing, that situation is going to continue. For most of the stuff they dispense, the pharmacy has ZERO control over how much they get paid. If they decide to charge a 50% mark-up on that which they have SOME control over, fair play to them. On that portion of the business, market forces will eventually decide the price.


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    #44
    amjon.
    Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭amjon.


    sesna wrote: »
    protecting their rip-off on-patent medicines...

    Do you have any idea how much money goes into the R and D, clinical trials, liscensing, marketing, production ect of these "rip-off" on-patent medicines. Drug companies are here to make a profit. Yes they do make massive profits but then they do invest massive amounts of money. If these profits were not available then why bother pumping billions into research ect... It is the profit they make from these patented medications that gets pumped back into developing the next blockbuster which in turn will be sold at a premium and the cycle continues.


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    #45
    sesna
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭sesna


    amjon. wrote: »
    Do you have any idea how much money goes into the R and D, clinical trials, liscensing, marketing, production ect of these "rip-off" on-patent medicines. Drug companies are here to make a profit. Yes they do make massive profits but then they do invest massive amounts of money. If these profits were not available then why bother pumping billions into research ect... It is the profit they make from these patented medications that gets pumped back into developing the next blockbuster which in turn will be sold at a premium and the cycle continues.

    Yes I'm aware of the money that goes into developing new drugs - around half a billion dollars per new drug. I am aware drug companies are here to make a profit, same as any business including pharmacies.

    What I take issue with, and the context of the "rip-off" comment, is the misleading ads released into the mainstream media from IPHA representing the same companies. IPHA was proclaiming mass reductions in medicine prices, which in fact constitute just a small proportion of medicines available on the market, and which the companies are making little profit on anyway.

    Until there are significant reductions in the price manufacturers charge for on-patent medicines , true value for the Irish patient has not been achieved.


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