The Burka. Should wearing it be banned?

nyarlothothep

I thought it was part of western society for people to be allowed to express themselves. I know that this isn't necessarily the case with the burka, but there may be a significant minority who wear it out of choice. Who are we to say what they can wear. Its a different scenario though if its in the places Chocolate Sauce mentioned.

However I do feel that it is medieval and backward. I think its a symptom of the larger problem that muslims haven't integrated into Western society in addition to the reaction towards terrorist attacks which are in part caused by Western foreign policy in the ME. I don't think banning a burka is going to achieve that aim, it will just antagonize them, if you antagonize an ideology the adherents of it will normally defend it even more. In addition I find that its a continuation in the pattern of irony, that in order to "defend" ourselves from Islamic fundamentalism ie religious fascism, there has been a curtailment of civil liberties, particularly in the US, and that now we are even emulating them in terms of clothing rights!

Z4K

Well then how come in the OLD testament it said for women to hide there beauty from strangers??? Same similarity in the Koran and Bible, But it never specified in what fashion to hide it in. For instance some people prefer the burqa to the headscarf and vice versa. How come Nuns cover ther hair so tell me that??? Costume or Gospel u judge

If u think that we muslims have problems with our law,Holy book etc you must be having a laugh


Not to offend anybody but: How many bishops/preists stepped down since the recent allogations of the child rape cases?? I think 7 not sure......Yet these children (now adults) get millins in compensation....From who??? But the vatican

Now if you dont call this true religious corruption then u may aswell shoot me!

Z4K

Women don't wear burquas in fear of being buried alive
they wear it to hide there beauty but the question is that many westerners ask is what beauty is there? well the thing is if you have been to an arab country (which i have many times) the answer would be self explanitory. Lets say your in saudi arabia with your wife and your wife is in regular weterner clothes without doubt she would be given the worst looks and gestures anybody can imagine... But when a woman in a burqua comes to a westerner country and wears her burqa she also gets stared at

it's like a double edged sword but who are we to judge people who they are because they wear a headscarf or burqa or or judge somebody of the sexual orientaion
we are not to judge people for what they are.....thats Allah/Gof/Bhudda/Jahova/Bhuddas job. Humans weren't put on earth to point fingers at people

Bare that in mind next time ur gonna laugh at someone walking down the street

Flamed Diving

Z4K wrote: »

Well then how come in the OLD testament it said for women to hide there beauty from strangers???

Because it is a book authored by backward, bigoted, ignorant desert nomads who thought the Earth was flat and the sun revolved around the Earth, that snakes and donkeys could talk, and that the stars were small enough to be carried in your hand. It's a pile of crap and should be consigned to the dustbin or the comedy section.

Z4K wrote: »

Same similarity in the Koran and Bible, But it never specified in what fashion to hide it in. For instance some people prefer the burqa to the headscarf and vice versa. How come Nuns cover ther hair so tell me that??? Costume or Gospel u judge

The koran is no better than the bible. In fact, it largely plagiarises from it.

Z4K wrote: »

If u think that we muslims have problems with our law,Holy book etc you must be having a laugh

You're not a Muslim, I'd wager. Call it a hunch.

Z4K wrote: »

Not to offend anybody but: How many bishops/preists stepped down since the recent allogations of the child rape cases?? I think 7 not sure......Yet these children (now adults) get millins in compensation....From who??? But the vatican. Now if you dont call this true religious corruption then u may aswell shoot me!

Or bury you alive.

Z4K

FYI buddy i am a muslim
And who are you to judge the koran??? have you even read it? you know there are english translation available?????

u say christians worship god with there new testament????? who gave any permission to CHANGE the holy books????? it cant be done by anybody but god.

If you ever read the koran you would be amazed as it has nothing to do with terrorism or all that modern myth craps the actual word 'ISLAM' means peace...its a way of life i.e guidelines for ignorant ppl like yourself...Wiki islam and you'd be amazed......


For the record PAL how many muslim people have converted to christianity????NONE N-O-N-E!!!!!!

Now i can tell you i know that there are at least 3 people off the top of my head that i know that are converts because they KNEW the bible Both old and new testaments are just rubbish!

Flamed Diving

Z4K wrote: »

Women don't wear burquas in fear of being buried alive

a) It was a hypothetical question.
b) You are not omniscient, therefore, you cannot speak for all women who wear burqas.

Z4K wrote: »

they wear it to hide there beauty but the question is that many westerners ask is what beauty is there?

Again, you are just making this up. I couldn't give a damn what lies underneath. If she wants to wear it willingly, then so be it. But I don't believe she really has a choice. She can hear that spade hitting the earth now. *dig, dig*

Z4K wrote: »

well the thing is if you have been to an arab country

I never will be. I can assure you.

Z4K wrote: »

(which i have many times) the answer would be self explanitory. Lets say your in saudi arabia with your wife and your wife is in regular weterner clothes without doubt she would be given the worst looks and gestures anybody can imagine... But when a woman in a burqua comes to a westerner country and wears her burqa she also gets stared at

Indeed. Let's take this thought experiment further. Imagine Country A and Country B (remember now, this is a thought exercise). In Country A, people dress in tshirt and jeans. In Country B people also dress this way, but cover themselves in dog sh!t, head to toe. If someone from Country A would visit Country B, the people of Country B would give looks and gestures, and vice versa. So, I guess it's the same thing. It's all relative.

Z4K wrote: »

it's like a double edged sword but who are we to judge people who they are because they wear a headscarf or burqa or or judge somebody of the sexual orientaion

Yeah, why do we judge those poor people who cover themselves in sh!t...

Z4K wrote: »

we are not to judge people for what they are.....thats Allah/Gof/Bhudda/Jahova/Bhuddas job. Humans weren't put on earth to point fingers at people

I'm agnostic. I couldn't give a toss what any of those fictional characters said.

Z4K wrote: »

Bare that in mind next time ur gonna laugh at someone walking down the street

I don't laugh at people like that. It seems you are alone in this mindset.

Dionysus

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Or bury you alive.

Words fail me after reading that story.

Z4K

You are agnostic!
Simple reason being that ur religion is useless and u are to lazy to get some more answers. well i guess im just gonna have to flag that last post. sould have been more careful buddy! dog sh!t? i'm not gonna even bother. ignorancy at it's highest. pure racist

Bottle_of_Smoke

GuanYin wrote: »

Oh please, a quick look through the literature and I could say that living in Ireland from October - March is a health issue, as the Vitamin D generated from sunlight exposure during that period has been shown to be negligible. :rolleyes:

It is, that's why its important to get some sun during the summer as your body can store vitamin D. Just wondering how a burqa clad person could get this.

Flamed Diving

Z4K wrote: »

FYI buddy i am a muslim
And who are you to judge the koran??? have you even read it? you know there are english translation available?????

No, I have not read it, I am not interested in reading it. It's just another book in the Abrahamic Trinity of Madness, where women are cattle and all humanity are dirty sinners, and the God is a bloodthirsty, violent lunatic. Even if he does exist, I want nothing to do with him.

Z4K wrote: »

u say christians worship god with there new testament????? who gave any permission to CHANGE the holy books????? it cant be done by anybody but god.

God doesn't exist. It's a fantasy.

Z4K wrote: »

If you ever read the koran you would be amazed as it has nothing to do with terrorism or all that modern myth craps the actual word 'ISLAM' means peace...its a way of life i.e guidelines for ignorant ppl like yourself...Wiki islam and you'd be amazed......

Islam is derived from the word 'Salem', which means peace. But the word Islam means 'submission'. I didn't even need to look it up. What was that about ignorance? While you are on Google, why don't you look up Mohammed's thoughts on the people "of the book/scripture"? What are his peaceful suggestions in that regard?

Z4K wrote: »

For the record PAL how many muslim people have converted to christianity????NONE N-O-N-E!!!!!!

Hmm, mods, can I say the 'T' word?

Z4K wrote: »

Now i can tell you i know that there are at least 3 people off the top of my head that i know that are converts because they KNEW the bible Both old and new testaments are just rubbish!

The Bible is rubbish, I agree. As are all holy texts, old, new, and to infinity.

Flamed Diving

Z4K wrote: »

You are agnostic!
Simple reason being that ur religion is useless and u are to lazy to get some more answers. well i guess im just gonna have to flag that last post. sould have been more careful buddy! dog sh!t? i'm not gonna even bother. ignorancy at it's highest. pure racist

I don't have a religion. I don't believe in god/s and the only reason I am not an atheist is down to my understanding of probability theory. I haven't made a single racist remark, I think you are a little over excited. Maybe have a sandwich.

Z4K

Flamed Diving wrote: »

God doesn't exist. It's a fantasy.

i mean wth???????

oh and from your stupid buried alive article i found this pretty sweet quote

"the practice is linked more to the customs of this region of Turkey, than to religious belief."

Now for ya Mr. I hate everybody even god (although i never met him)

Flamed Diving

Z4K wrote: »

i mean wth???????

oh and from your stupid buried alive article i found this pretty sweet quote

"the practice is linked more to the customs of this region of Turkey, than to religious belief."

Now for ya Mr. I hate everybody even god (although i never met him)

It wouldn't take me very long to find another example of a direct Muslim "honour" (such misuse of a word) killing. Anyway, the point remains that some Muslim women live with the knowledge of honour killings. How such an act is carried out, seems to be dictated by local custom. However, if I am wrong, someone needs to explain the worrying correlation between honour killings and a country having a predominate Muslim populace...

P.S. According to legend, only the lucky few such as Mohammed actually meet God on earth, the rest of us require faith, apparently. Who tells us this? Why Mohammed!

Anyway, this is derailing the topic a bit. I'm done with this.

Flamed Diving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48

Pat Condell's thoughts.

Sand

Now i can tell you i know that there are at least 3 people off the top of my head that i know that are converts because they KNEW the bible Both old and new testaments are just rubbish!

My God is better than your God! Jesus, youd think it was football teams. I know the bible is rubbish, but Im smarter again - I know the rest of them are rubbish too.

I think the difference you will find is that the Koran was written within the lifetime of one man (yeah, yeah, I know, it always existed, perfect and so on), whereas the Bible is the collected works of hundreds of writers and holy men from different eras and cultures. Even the life time of Jesus is recorded by 4 different gospels with diverging accounts - and those are only the accounts that survived the heresy purges. Wasnt there a recent discovery of the Gospel of Judas which claimed Judas was not acting against God when betraying Jesus, but instead was serving his plan, taking the sin upon himself so as to complete the necessary self sacrifice of Jesus? How many other versions are out there that just didnt survive as part of the official belief?

As it is, you can refer to the Koran and claim it is a religion of peace and find passages and sayings to support that. Equally, bands of angry young men can claim it is a religion of war and find passages and saying to support that. At least the bible has the excuse of being written by hundreds of people for being so bloody illogical.

It is right to say honour killings reflect local culture to a large degree, but obviously, religious belief does play some role in creating that local culture - and the culture plays a role in forming the religion. Were the men who killed that young girl religious men? Do supporters of the burqa, particularly male supporters, root their support on religious dictates or cultural ones?

And lets not forget, that Islam and Christianity and Judaism share one rather horrific root mythology - the willingness of Abraham to murder his own children to appease God. Praised by all books as a sign of his religious fervour. Again, sure, honour killings are cultural - but religion is cultural.

I'll say one thing for Christianity - its big on forgiveness, at least nominally, with rites and procedures specifically for admitting to sin and receiving divine forgivenes for human weakness. I am not sure Islam is so big on that sort of thing. If thats down to the culture that formed the religion, or the religion itself is another thing. Would diverging religious views (again even nominal ones - like all religions, Christianity is better than theory than in practise) influence the cultural views on treatment of those considered to have sinned?

Theres more than a few examples out there of pretty horrific killings that cant be explained away as a charming facet of the culture - a 16 year old girl getting hung from a crane in Iran for example. Thats a little harder to explain away for a state specifically run and controlled by Islamic religious clergy.

Now whilst someone might say that Irish religious orders treated its children almost as abominably back when they held almost similar levels of power in Ireland, I would only respond, exactly! It lends weight to the inhumanity of the religious being rooted in their religious belief that they are only beholden to a magical being hiding up in the clouds, as opposed to human decency and accountability. The only difference is that most "christians" are decidely post-christian, retaining only instinctive cultural habits, not real belief. And they are free to express that disbelief. Whereas, in Afghanistan, a man who converted from Islam to Christianity had to be spirited out of the country under immense Western pressure to evade a popular death sentence pronounced upon him. Rooted in religious belief.

Scofflaw

Z4K wrote: »

FYI buddy i am a muslim
And who are you to judge the koran??? have you even read it? you know there are english translation available?????

u say christians worship god with there new testament????? who gave any permission to CHANGE the holy books????? it cant be done by anybody but god.

If you ever read the koran you would be amazed as it has nothing to do with terrorism or all that modern myth craps the actual word 'ISLAM' means peace...its a way of life i.e guidelines for ignorant ppl like yourself...Wiki islam and you'd be amazed......


For the record PAL how many muslim people have converted to christianity????NONE N-O-N-E!!!!!!

Now i can tell you i know that there are at least 3 people off the top of my head that i know that are converts because they KNEW the bible Both old and new testaments are just rubbish!

This isn't the religion forum. If it becomes necessary I can punt the thread over that way, but this is supposed to be a thread about the politics of wearing the burqa.

Z4K, you're being pointlessly aggressive, over-excited, and you're misunderstanding what people have posted. Calm down or be banned. Don't use "pal" or "buddy" again - it's fighting talk, and the rules are pretty clear - this is a non-fighting venue.

Flamed Diving wrote:

Anyway, this is derailing the topic a bit. I'm done with this.

Just in time, too. You're also perilously close to flame-baiting.

moderately,
and irritably,
Scofflaw

irishconvert

Flamed Diving wrote: »

No, I have not read it, I am not interested in reading it. It's just another book in the Abrahamic Trinity of Madness, where women are cattle and all humanity are dirty sinners, and the God is a bloodthirsty, violent lunatic. Even if he does exist, I want nothing to do with him.

How can you make comments like that about a book you haven't read? Would you give any credibility to a journalist who writes a review about a movie they never watched?

Flamed Diving

irishconvert wrote: »

How can you make comments like that about a book you haven't read? Would you give any credibility to a journalist who writes a review about a movie they never watched?

The movie analogy is not applicable here. We are talking about books that tell people how to be behave, about the nature of the universe, and so on. They promise eternal salvation to the weak and bewildered. No movie holds this power over people. One needs not to read these books, therefore, to see the effect that they create. If you want me to provide passages that back what I said, then I will. Although I'm guessing the mods won't want it here.

irishconvert

Flamed Diving wrote: »

The movie analogy is not applicable here. We are talking about books that tell people how to be behave, about the nature of the universe, and so on. They promise eternal salvation to the weak and bewildered. No movie holds this power over people. One needs not to read these books, therefore, to see the effect that they create. If you want me to provide passages that back what I said, then I will. Although I'm guessing the mods won't want it here.

I challenge you to read the entire Qur'an, with an open mind, cover to cover. I don't expect you will be converted or anything near, but I do think you might then be a bit more respectful towards Muslims.

Sand

I challenge you to read the entire Qur'an, with an open mind, cover to cover. I don't expect you will be converted or anything near, but I do think you might then be a bit more respectful towards Muslims.

Do you allow for the possibility its possible to be respectful towards other human beings whilst believing religious belief is at best superstitious nonsense for the weak minded?

irishconvert

Sand wrote: »

Do you allow for the possibility its possible to be respectful towards other human beings whilst believing religious belief is at best superstitious nonsense for the weak minded?

Why do you have to make your point by insulting people?

Flamed Diving

irishconvert wrote: »

I challenge you to read the entire Qur'an, with an open mind, cover to cover. I don't expect you will be converted or anything near, but I do think you might then be a bit more respectful towards Muslims.

Are you expecting me to simply respect your personal beliefs? To me, your beliefs are no different to another persons belief in communism or nationalism. I do not automatically respect peoples personal beliefs, no matter what they happen to be. I believe you should have the right to practice these beliefs, so long as they don't infringe on my rights. That's all.

Reading the book wouldn't change a thing for me, do you know why? Because, in the end, the principal character (Allah) is a being that throws people into an eternal pit of fire for not massaging his ego. Same with Christianity.

I have no respect for a character like that.

Sand

Why do you have to make your point by insulting people?

Your beliefs are not immune to criticism merely because you believe them. Dont doubt that I have respect for you as a human being and I freely believe if you want to believe a load of claptrap and base your whole life on it, fire away. However, I retain the right to believe its a lot of claptrap and freely express my view on that grounds.

Lets face it, if Im right, neither of us will ever know. If I'm wrong, youll get the last laugh up in heaven with the 72 virgins. Or will I?

GuanYin

Mod Note:
Guys, lets be respectful and keep the personal comments out of this.

Irishconvert, in future, please report the post if you have a problem with a poster. DO NOT post in the thread.

Please read the Forum Charter to update yourselves on the rules.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

bonkey

Just on this whole "face covering is wrong" thing...

I presume all those making that argument believe that protestors who cover their faces at demonstrations should be arrested if and when this law you want gets passed?

Eliot Rosewater

bonkey wrote: »

I presume all those making that argument believe that protestors who cover their faces at demonstrations should be arrested if and when this law you want gets passed?

And I would also presume that those who advocate it on the basis of Vitamin D deficiency will want a government run vitamin supplement program?

I also presume that those who advocate it on rights for children not to engage in religion will be looking to ban juvenile participation in mass and prayer?

May I also presume that those who advocate it on the basis of some kind of societal responsibility to interact will want to introduce laws requiring, amongst other things, donegalfella to talk to people wearing Che Guevara t-shirts?

bonkey

I take it, then, that you (at least) don't want to address the point....that being that a ban on covering of the face has ramifications far beyond the burka which should be considered and addressed as part of any debate.

Of course, if the issue isn't the covering of the face, but rather the wearing of the burqa, then naturally these issues don't arise....but the argument that the ban is because the covering of the face is a social abnormality that we should not accept must then be dropped for the pretense that it is.

Sand

Why is the wearing of the burka connected with modesty, as a positive attribute?

If the wearing of the burka is a sign of postive modesty, what is implied about women that do not wear the burka?

What does it imply about men that women should go around wearing a tarpaulin to maintain their modesty?

All in all, its simply a very unhealthy social message.

If thats not convincing, try entering a bank wearing a balaclava. Or a motorcycle helmet. Actually, try conducting your daily life wearing such getup. It radiates a message that others pick up on. This is the purpose of the burka - to deliberately errect a wall between these women and the rest of the world. A more subtle form of ghettoisation.

Dont let a desire to be tolerant blind you to what is an intolerant mindset walling itself up into a siege mentality. I wouldnt like Ireland to wind up like the UK where multiculturalism is sustained by never meeting, never talking and never making eye contact.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.