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The Burka. Should wearing it be banned?

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    #152
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Johro wrote: »
    Also, a ban would be ammunition for those screeching fanatics who'll say its just another stick to beat the Arab Muslim world with.

    1. I'm not suggesting a ban, I'm suggesting restrictions in certain public places.

    2. The view of let people do what they like and we can just ignore them is not conducive to integration or any example of a functioning society I have heard of.

    3. The just another stick argument is overused. No problem with hijabs, jibabs or other symbols of muslim expression. This is protecting a value in our society. I'll ask you the same question. Do you think face to face contact is important in society for the reasons I mentioned, should it be valued?

    Can you see how a niqab could be a barrier to people of different backgrounds communicating?


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    #153
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Laminations wrote: »
    So people are not free to leave the country?
    Are you serious? You are suggesting people should leave the country they were born in because of this?
    Laminations wrote: »
    The rules of government are far more democratic, we elect the government.
    I didn't elect Fianna Fail, and even if I did I didn't give them permission to allow the US Army to use it as an air base on the way to bomb innocent people in an illegal war.
    Laminations wrote: »
    And it isn't just my value, I believe it is a societal value. And I believe you are skirting around my question to you. Do YOU believe that face to face contact in public should be valued??
    It is not my value. My value is not to oppress women, or any people. You want to oppress because you are offended by some future conversation with a veiled woman you will probably never have anyway.

    To be honest if the niqab is banned, the women who wear it will probably never leave their homes as they don't want to show their face to the public. That is the kind of women they are. I am not saying I agree with their choices but nobody has a right to stop them as long as they are not harming anyone else.


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    #154
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Are you serious? You are suggesting people should leave the country they were born in because of this?

    I'm not suggesting anything. I'm merely stating that if people regardless of where they are from, cannot abide by the values of a society they are free to go elsewhere. I used boards as an example of a micro-society which has rules regarding decency and politeness. Disobeying these rules leads to sanctions and bannings. I've also pointed out why I believe face to face contact is a valuable thing - and provided references to psychology texts which highlight the importance of facial information for human contact.

    irishconvert wrote: »
    I didn't elect Fianna Fail, and even if I did I didn't give them permission to allow the US Army to use it as an air base on the way to bomb innocent people in an illegal war.

    What does this have to do with niqabs?

    irishconvert wrote: »
    It is not my value. My value is not to oppress women, or any people. You want to oppress because you are offended by some future conversation with a veiled woman you will probably never have anyway.

    I didn't ask was your value to oppress women, I asked do you value face to face human interaction.
    irishconvert wrote: »
    To be honest if the niqab is banned, the women who wear it will probably never leave their homes as they don't want to show their face to the public. That is the kind of women they are. I am not saying I agree with their choices but nobody has a right to stop them as long as they are not harming anyone else.

    Dehumanising public spaces harms the society - and human social and emotional development. If I dont want people to see my spectacular love handles I dont go to the swimming pool.


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    #155
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Laminations wrote: »
    I'm not suggesting anything. I'm merely stating that if people regardless of where they are from, cannot abide by the values of a society they are free to go elsewhere. I used boards as an example of a micro-society which has rules regarding decency and politeness. Disobeying these rules leads to sanctions and bannings. I've also pointed out why I believe face to face contact is a valuable thing - and provided references to psychology texts which highlight the importance of facial information for human contact.
    You think it is piece of cake to just pack your bags and leave your country because the Government introduce some draconian law? You are living in la-la land.


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    #156
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    irishconvert wrote: »
    You think it is piece of cake to just pack your bags and leave your country because the Government introduce some draconian law? You are living in la-la land.

    Nice one. Twist my argument and avoid my question. Do you believe face to face interaction should be valued.

    Or will you ignore the psychological evidences that supports its importance?

    Or do you see some middle ground, if so explain..


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    #157
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    irishconvert wrote: »
    You think it is piece of cake to just pack your bags and leave your country because the Government introduce some draconian law? You are living in la-la land.

    Hyperbole? what is draconian about protecting the idea of seeing peoples faces in public? What are the severe consequences I've mentioned??


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    #158
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #159
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


    Of course people have the freedom to not associate - its the whole idea of private space. You do know the difference between public and private spaces? I'm advocating restrictions to public spaces, where your mere presence causes you to associate.

    Secondly, I'd have a similar view on monkey suits. I wouldn't allow someone in a monkey suit in a bank, or in an airport or to be served in a shop (but only if there face is covered. You can wear a tutu or a hijab, dress sense is a separate issue.

    Its seems you hold liberty in such high regard that you'd let society disintegrate before encouraging people to communicate.


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    #160
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I'd like to think people shouldn't need rules to communicate politely, I dont consider it polite or appropriate to speak to someone in public and in person through a balaclava, a Freddie mask, a niqab or any other face covering unless for health and safety reasons (e.g. its really cold or they have a bad cough). Boards.ie is an example where this ideology fails - people do need rules and sanctions to communicate politely.

    I'll ask again, slightly rephrased and simpler. Do you recognise the importance of facial expression in human communication in public?

    I've said, if the majority of people in Ireland were to say it is not valued, important or worth protecting then fine, its a democracy


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    #161
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #162
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    What about wedding veils? Wedding are generally held in public access buildings and involve forays into public domain.

    What about when it's cold and people wear hoods and scarves? What about a Nun's habit? What about skiiing?

    This is the reason the average person isn't (and shouldn't be a lawmaker). The arguments made tend to be along the lines of viewing faces is important and in public places should be required. But the arguments generally seem to close around their own personal comfort zones. In reality, this would be much harder to implement. If you ban face covering in public, you ban covering faces in winter to mask the cold (when I visited Ireland over a winter a few years ago, I didn't leave the house without a hood and face-scarf), wedding veils (are you going to suggest we make an exception for one religious ceremony and not another?) and hoods (a nun's habit covers hair, ears, neck... surely this is no more acceptable than a burqa...where do you draw the line, at YOUR personal preference?), what about big hoods that cover the face in shadow?


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    #163
    Lucifer31
    Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Lucifer31


    I think it was last year that a senior Saudi cleric said that women who wear the burka should show only one eye. I guess this is because showing two eyes might make a woman seductive and tempt some luckless man into raping her through no fault of his own.
    If we lived in a more honest society, might the burka have been laughed out of existence already?


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    #164
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #165
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    1. I'm not saying the state should compel people to communicate, I'm saying they should try and remove barriers to communication. How many women in niqabs have you actually talked to?

    2. I'm sure you'd fly your liberal flag just as high if a restriction on face coverings was implemented for banks, airports, shops etc.

    But I'll take a leaf out of your book and choose not to associate. Lets see how healthy a debate can be when you are being ignored. Lets see how many more posts appear. Just like this thread, I'd imagine society would fail to flourish and end in equally dismal circumstances. Thats what happens when people choose not to communicate, all in the name of sacred liberty.


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    #166
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #167
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    The burkas also a health issue. If you wore one all the time you'd run a serious risk of vitamin D deficiency


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    #168
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Just out of curiosity. What do people think would happen if I donned a bedsheet, cut a small hole for seeing through and proceeded to wander around town. Would An Gardaí stop me and ask me to remove it?


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    #169
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    That could be your new signature;)


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    #170
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    The burkas also a health issue. If you wore one all the time you'd run a serious risk of vitamin D deficiency

    Oh please, a quick look through the literature and I could say that living in Ireland from October - March is a health issue, as the Vitamin D generated from sunlight exposure during that period has been shown to be negligible. :rolleyes:


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    #171
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    irishconvert wrote: »
    My opinions are not clouded. I simply don't believe in forcing women not to wear a garment of clothing if THEY CHOOSE to wear it. Western countries rant on about bringing democracy to the middle east but are now trying to oppress their own citizens and remove their freedoms. It's complete hypocrisy.
    There are two seperate points here:
    1) Can you honestly say that all Muslim women choose to wear the Burqa, that at least some of them are not forced into it by their husband who again they were forced into marrying ?

    I often see young Muslim girls of 12-14 wearing a hijab, and it is not right. These girls only wear the hijab because of the influence of their family, friends etc.
    irishconvert wrote: »
    And since you mention your concern for the dignity of a human beings I wonder if you in favor of banning pornography where women are treated like pieces of meat?
    Women in pornography are not only consentual but they are paid quite well to be treated as they are. If anything it is the men who are treated like pieces of meat.


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    #172
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I often see young Muslim girls of 12-14 wearing a hijab, and it is not right.

    Should becoming an altar server as a child be illegal? Should going to mass at all under the age of 16 be illegal, considering its is just "because of the influence of their family"?


    You see once we apply a given reason to ban the Burka consistently we realize that the supposed ideal behind said reason is unworkable and undesirable. It seems that many of them are pulled out of thin air to support the position of the poster.


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    #173
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Laminations wrote: »
    Nice one. Twist my argument and avoid my question. Do you believe face to face interaction should be valued.

    Or will you ignore the psychological evidences that supports its importance?

    Or do you see some middle ground, if so explain..

    It's not something that concerns me too much to be honest. I am interacting with you and can't see your face. If someone wants to cover their face, people can use reasonable argument to try to convince them that what they are doing is wrong, but banning them from doing so is out of the question.


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    #174
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Governments should not dictate to their people what they can and cannot wear; it shouldn't be banned.

    However, government employees shouldn't wear it on the job, children shouldn't be allowed to wear it in school, and it is up to private companies to decide to allow it on their own property (so if a bank disallows motorcycle helmets, it should disallow the Burka and so on).

    It is a symbol of oppression, it is disgusting and offensive, but I have no more a right to force it off a woman than her family has to force it on.


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    #175
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Lucifer31 wrote: »
    I think it was last year that a senior Saudi cleric said that women who wear the burka should show only one eye. I guess this is because showing two eyes might make a woman seductive and tempt some luckless man into raping her through no fault of his own.
    If we lived in a more honest society, might the burka have been laughed out of existence already?

    Thankfully we don't live in Saudi so it has nothing to do with this discussion.


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    #176
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Thankfully we don't live in Saudi so it has nothing to do with this discussion.

    Are Saudi views entirely unrelated to the discussion of 'Muslims in Europe', given the considerable funding that the Saudi Royal family pump into various 'Muslim Councils' across Europe, serving as a front for Saudi Wahhabi interests? Perhaps if this funding was removed and these various Saudi lobby groups dissolved could we then state that Saudi opinions have no place in a discussion about Muslims in Europe.


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    #177
    Z4K
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24 ✭Z4K


    If your wife goes to a muslim country wearing a mini skirt chances are she'd get raped because are so used to seeing covered women there OR be imprisoned for breaking shariah law which could be punished by the death penalty. The main reason for a burqa is to hide beauty or sheild from rape. Remember in the time of jesus if a woman was raped by a man nothing would happen to the man he'd get off scott free


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    #178
    Z4K
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24 ✭Z4K


    Why are people so worked up about society?
    If somebody wants to wear a burqa-let them wear one
    If somebody wants to be homosexual-let them be
    etc.
    As long as they personally didn't do anything to you why should we care
    It's just a little different in some countries.


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    #179
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #180
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Z4K wrote: »
    If your wife goes to a muslim country wearing a mini skirt chances are she'd get raped because are so used to seeing covered women there OR be imprisoned for breaking shariah law which could be punished by the death penalty. The main reason for a burqa is to hide beauty or sheild from rape. Remember in the time of jesus if a woman was raped by a man nothing would happen to the man he'd get off scott free

    But many female populace's in "non-Muslim" countries seem to get on fine without one, long after the death of the fictional Jewish zombie and his book of bronze-age desert ramblings. So how do we account for this? Perhaps the logical abandonment of the literal interpretations of backward desert nomads? Perhaps. So, if the male population of Muslim countries cannot stop themselves from raping women, and they cannot stop reading the book that tells them to do this then perhaps these countries need to investigate the possibility of chemical castration. That way the women can be liberated from such tools of repression and can also be safe from the millions of rapists that seemingly populate Arabic states. I think that sounds fair, given the evidence presented.


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    #181
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Z4K wrote: »
    Why are people so worked up about society?
    If somebody wants to wear a burqa-let them wear one
    If somebody wants to be homosexual-let them be
    etc.
    As long as they personally didn't do anything to you why should we care
    It's just a little different in some countries.

    I agree. But if someone doesn't want to wear a burqa, but does so out of fear of being buried alive. Do we 'let them be'?


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