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N25 - Waterford to Glenmore [design ongoing; ABP in mid 2022]

13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭steeler j


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    It would also make sense for the new road to incorporate about 250m of the existing road north of the southern roundabout. Run the existing N25 (presumably downgraded to a L road) into the local road which connects to the roundabout on the south eastern side. No need for five arms on that roundabout.

    I would be thinking of doing it that way myself


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    It would also make sense for the new road to incorporate about 250m of the existing road north of the southern roundabout. Run the existing N25 (presumably downgraded to a L road) into the local road which connects to the roundabout on the south eastern side. No need for five arms on that roundabout.
    Very true.

    Same job on the northern end. Connect the alternative route into the existing western arm of the roundabout.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Dungarvan and Youghal won't be getting new roads for a very very long time. They would be expensive builds and the level of traffic doesn't justify it. For all the issues with the roads, safety isn't one.


    Without dragging this one off topic too much!
    - Youghal bypass is fine but the Youghal bridge needs replacing, or at least duplicating. Its an unsuitable 1960s bridge with poor bends at both end and the nearest upstream crossing is even more unsuitable.
    - Dungarvan does need it. Yes, its expensive. Fantastic time savings, good improvement in safety in the town and will remove the very dangerous (even with the 60kmh limit) Pike section.
    - Lakeview roundabout - Castlemartyr - Killeagh should have been done two decades ago. That section is woefully under capacity and bottleneck-y.


    I meant Kinsalebeg before, not Kilmacthomas. Midleton - Kilmacthomas as one scheme, whilst impressive, would not be on the cards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Dungarvan and Youghal won't be getting new roads for a very very long time. They would be expensive builds and the level of traffic doesn't justify it. For all the issues with the roads, safety isn't one.

    Yes, it will be a very expensive build, but the eastern approach to Dungarvan still has big safety issues. Poor sightlines, hidden junctions, a mix of slow rural traffic crossing fast inter-urban drivers, residential accesses, acute junctions, narrow road width - you've got the whole lot on just one stretch.

    The problem with Dungarvan is the cost, not the traffic levels. The terrain (which is basically a mix of mountains and wetlands) will make it really expensive to do.

    Castlemartyr could (and should) be addressed in the short term with a relief road. A feasibility study was funded in 2020 to look into this, but there's been no word yet on further actions. The traffic-lights at Castlemartyr bridge are a big cause of traffic platoons on either side of the town. (Killeagh is not a bottleneck - I think it gets lumped in with Castlemartyr because they're so close to each other, but unlike Castlemartyr, it rarely comes to a standstill outside of the rush-hour)

    N25 is the route I drive most, but I'd say it's actually one of the least in need of upgrade now that New Ross has been addressed, and Glenmore (a deceptively dangerous stretch of road) is about to be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,646 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    KrisW1001 wrote: »
    Yes, it will be a very expensive build, but the eastern approach to Dungarvan still has big safety issues. Poor sightlines, hidden junctions, a mix of slow rural traffic crossing fast inter-urban drivers, residential accesses, acute junctions, narrow road width - you've got the whole lot on just one stretch.

    The problem with Dungarvan is the cost, not the traffic levels. The terrain (which is basically a mix of mountains and wetlands) will make it really expensive to do.

    Castlemartyr could (and should) be addressed in the short term with a relief road. A feasibility study was funded in 2020 to look into this, but there's been no word yet on further actions. The traffic-lights at Castlemartyr bridge are a big cause of traffic platoons on either side of the town. (Killeagh is not a bottleneck - I think it gets lumped in with Castlemartyr because they're so close to each other, but unlike Castlemartyr, it rarely comes to a standstill outside of the rush-hour)

    N25 is the route I drive most, but I'd say it's actually one of the least in need of upgrade now that New Ross has been addressed, and Glenmore (a deceptively dangerous stretch of road) is about to be.

    A bypass of the Dungarvan bypass will never happen, wouldbe extremely expensive and it would carry nothing like the level of traffic required to justify the expense. The eastern approach does warrant safety improvements but offline work is unlikely given the terrain.

    If/when the N24 Waterford to Cahir happens, traffic between Cork and Waterford would be better of going via N24 and M8. Particularly so if the Cork NRR has progressed by then. The N25 between Youghal and Kilmedean would be more like a National Secondary than Primary at that stage.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Great that finally a route has been chosen. south Kilkenny's N roads are pretty disgraceful when you consider the population centres and ports they link.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,917 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    This wasn't mentioned in the 2022 Allocations announcement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭GandhiwasfromBallyfermot


    I don't get the need for this project at all. Some safety improvements could be made to the current road for the fraction of the cost. You would be spending millions building a new dual carriageway to shave at most a couple of minutes off an 8km journey between the New Ross bypass and Waterford bypass. Money would be better spent improving public transport between Waterford - New Ross - Wexford instead of encouraging more private car journeys.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    It’s not all about journey time and it’s not all about cars.

    A lot of road freight uses this part of N25, and adding a second lane here will make it easier and safer for those heavy vehicles and other road users (car drivers can make batshit-crazy overtaking attempts when they’ve been behind an artic for more than 5 minutes).

    Remember, the Western end of this scheme is the junction with N29, which serves the Port of Waterford, another source of HGVs. (Waterford is a load-on, load-off port, so there’s trucks going in to be loaded, then out again with loads, but unlike Rosslare, they don’t all arrive in one big wave)



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    It’s a short high speed stretch of wide single carriageway between two grade separated dual carriageways. As KrisW1001 pointed out, lots of HGV traffic. It’s a safety issue and a sensible upgrade in the context of a coherent nationwide roads plan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭GandhiwasfromBallyfermot


    As I said though safety improvements could be made at a fraction of the cost which would cut out a lot of this. And the argument for spending millions on a new road is to stop dangerous overtakes, aren't you just rewarding **** driving behavior with a whole new road? A lot of drivers in ireland just need to cop on recently.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,574 ✭✭✭✭josip


    They have been making safety improvements on a regular basis between Ross and Waterford over the years. I'm not sure of the cost but 'fraction' is an imprecise term; for example 5/4 is also a fraction but probably not what you had in mind.

    Safety issues aren't simply an issue due to bad driving behaviour. One could argue that driving behaviour was worse back in the 80s with drink driving, no seatbelts and badly maintained cars. But they still went ahead and realigned the part up Glenmore Hill because it was no longer fit for purpose at the time due to the increasing volume of traffic on the road.

    Things have moved on, and 30 years later and with increased speeds and volumes since then, that part is again no longer fit for purpose. Other parts of the road still follow the line of the original New Ross to Waterford road. That line is at least 150 years old and dates from a time when hp really meant horse power.

    In case anyone hasn't already seen it, here's Heinrich hammering along back in the 80s.

    https://www.rte.ie/archives/collections/news/21271228-kilkenny-road-causing-concern/



  • Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭GandhiwasfromBallyfermot


    That bit of road you're talking about from that article is all along the pink rock which isn't even in the 10km section to be upgraded and has already been bypassed both by the alignment you mentioned above and the new ross bypass!

    The part of the road they are proposing to upgrade is actually a good bit of road already with wide lanes on either side and a wide hard shoulder on either side for almost the entire length apart from the bit that already has the overtaking lane. What part of the 10km stretch they are proposing to upgrade is specifically not fit for purpose?

    The proposed cost of the upgrade is €130m. The estimated cost of running 24/7 cardiac care in UHW is €2.9m per annum I just think putting that kind of money into upgrading an already good little bit of road is terrible value for money. What we really need in the south east is better healthcare, a university of scale (not a scaled down TU), connected public transport etc not more/slightly better roads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,797 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd



    makes sense.

    For the uphill sections they could simply do the obvious and have a climbing lane (as opposed to a VERY wide hard shoulder and a yellow line that some choose not to cross and pull in on ) and that eliminates any slow trucks/ Yarises driving people too demented and making silly overtaking manoeuvres.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,574 ✭✭✭✭josip



    Sorry, I included the clip not because of the bridges, but because it showed the old Glenmore Hill before it was widened and realigned past Duggans. The current road still travels along that realignment. I'm not very knowledgeable about current road design best practice, but I thought that at-grade turning points across oncoming traffic is no longer considered good design on a national route? The part at Ryans where you again turn across traffic up to Alywards was dangerous 30 years ago and is no less so today. Every few hundred metres you have places where cars are turning across traffic. The hard should is not as wide as you claim and in most places isn't wide enough to accommodate a broken down vehicle.

    I'm not arguing against your UHW points, but those are points for a different thread/forum, not this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Taken as a whole, this really is the least safe section of N25: It’s deceptive in the way the N20 south of Charleville is: the road is relatively wide and there are climbing lanes, but there are also lot of side turnings and relatively blind junctions. Yes, people complain about Castlemartyr or Lakeview in Midleton, but nobody dies or is seriously injured by sitting in traffic, whereas this road has all the attributes that add up to make accidents serious ones.

    Once you get beyond Slieverue, this road is already wide enough to accommodate a 2+2 with little or no additional groundworks; most of the cost will be for junction overbridges and providing parallel access roads for properties and businesses.



  • Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭GandhiwasfromBallyfermot


    Anger in South Kilkenny as 2 major road projects fail to get funding for 2022 (kclr96fm.com)

    Either way, no matter what our views on the project, it looks like we will be waiting a while for a definitive decision.



  • Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭NedNew2


    I remember driving from Ross to Waterford on the stretch in question a few years ago where there is a climbing lane (up Glenmore Hill) only to meet a UK car coming head-on from the opposite direction but on my side of the road (in the overtaking lane). Luckily I was in the left hand lane but I hate to think what happened after they passed me. They were obviously confused with the myriad of road-markings there.

    This is why I would strongly favour this part of the road to be upgraded to dual carriageway to avoid such incidents. People often use the slogan that safety comes first, well there's an example why.

    Arguments about how money could and should be spent elsewhere are a whole other topic.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,917 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    In the RTE video, where is that sharp bend under the railway bridge? Maybe it's all gone now? I can't find it on Gmaps anywhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,574 ✭✭✭✭josip


    1st Bridge (County Road Bridge or Ballyverneen Bridge depending who you're talking to)

    https://goo.gl/maps/GDc8dsPnyjVR5jQ3A

    2nd bridge (Annaghs Bridge)

    https://goo.gl/maps/uLw463ZABywq3v2B9

    Post edited by josip on


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    Slight OT, I was curious about the original route from Waterford to New Ross, this thread has been great for info.

    So before the first railway bridge (in the video), did traffic heading for Waterford travel up the hill through the back of Glenmore, down through Rathinure and out on to the current N25 around the Rhi Glenn Hotel?

    Cui bono?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,574 ✭✭✭✭josip



    The old road still exists as far as here.

    https://goo.gl/maps/EbNe4eRE6bbt859t5

    Just beyond this point there was a fairly serious hairpin bend, known by the wonderful name of "the turn at the bottom of Glenmore hill". The camber was also off to the outer edge where there was a considerable drop and it was a nightmare in bad winter weather. At least 1 milk tanker went off at that point. The hairpin also meant that trucks couldn't get a run at Glenmore Hill. Glenmore Hill isn't much in the way of a climb, (Category 4 climb when the Tour de France went up it), but it's long, narrow and loaded trucks at the time couldn't get out of the low gears going up it. The build up of cars behind them were called 'lorries funerals'. The current N25 up Glenmore Hill is faithful to the old line pretty much from the bottom as far as here. Can't remember the name of the garage here. The son was in the Counsel, first name DJ and is a guard now I think. Griffins, that's it.

    https://goo.gl/maps/Nz72bJo2JUZCBzYe7

    There's a bit of that road, still there, used to be a long double hairpin I think. Went to the right here where the gate is:

    https://goo.gl/maps/SRDUbe2a1icStGxC6

    Nearly everyone from the cycling club would be able to tuck in behind a truck on the way up and draft all the way up to Murphy's motors. They'd usually get burned off after that but St.Ledger managed to stick in behind one all the way to Waterford one day. He was still shaking when we caught up with him. The road after Murphy's Motors follows the same line now as then but it's much improved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,369 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Be interesting to see an old road map of this to see exactly where it went. Sounds like the current road is a mixture of new build and upgrade of what was there previously



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I had a look on the old Geohive maps but couldn't really make sense of it. The current road is pre the 1995 mapping anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    Great info there @josip. You can see a sharp turn just north of the current road at the Glenmore roundabout, framed by trees now. I presume this was one of the infamous bends.

    You can see remnants of the old road around Murphy Motors too. It’s strange that there were three roads in parallel, so close that were all going to the same place essentially.

    I’m guessing from that stretch of road to New Ross (R723) from the current Glenmore roundabout was a brand new road built in the 90’s to meet up with the old main road near the now derelict Petrol Station.


    @Chris_5339762 Google earth says that it goes back to 1985 for this area but I haven’t been able to get it to work.

    Cui bono?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    Anyone know where this project is at? Still waiting on funding from TII? What are the prospects of this getting built anytime soon?

    Cui bono?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,574 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Unlikely unless JP pulls off a big shock and makes it into cabinet during the reshuffle.



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