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Bertie in 2007 asking us not to gamble with Irelands future!
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I second that proposal for a thread about Bertie being a good politician and will back up any statements I make with references and facts and figures. Facts tell a story, opinions merely muddy the waters.Laminations wrote: »Someone accused those who want a change of being angry and disillusioned but our arguments are based on logic and facts while those who support FF are based on on opinion (which seemingly cant be debated) and hypothetical situations. If you want to set up a thread about Bertie being a good politician then i'll be glad to debate you there.0 -
nacho libre wrote: »you might and others here, who are disillusioned and angry, may remember and not be hoodwinked, but in nine-14 months time many disenfrancished former ff voters will start coming back on board and the ff spin doctors will be out in force hammering home the message that ff introduced the tough love, showed leadership in crisis, and they'll say if FG had been power we'd never have got out this mess.
a friend of mine, with it has to be said refreshing honesty, once told me he voted fianna fail because they put money in his pocket(i've resisted the temptation to remind him of this;) ) he is now angry like many people but once his pockets start to fill up again i bet he'll be back voting fianna fail.
Do all you can to remind your friend of the mess FF have made of the country. If it wasn't for their incompetence, your friend and everyone else would still have some money in their pocket. Keep the same crowd in, and sure in a few years time you might get some of your money back, though not all. Then FF will screw up again and you and everyone else (except bankers and politicians) will lose their money again. And so, the cycle will continue. Why do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result?
I'm sure I'm not the only one but I couldn't stomach another five years of the parasites we have in power.0 -
Joey the lips wrote: »The big probelm in ireland is not that there is a general hatred of Fianna fail. The big problem is that there is a distrust that Fine Gael and Labour can do better. We all remember the last fianna gael labour coalation and to call it as it is Eamonn Gilmore is no more a Socialist than Bertie was but there is no way he will play second fiddle to Enda Kenny.
So unfor while I distrust and hate to vote for fianna fail I will always vote for them as long as its looking like a fine gael labour coalation.Taxipete29 wrote: »Its this kind of ridiculous logic that has this country in the mess its in right now. " Better not change anything in case it gets worse" :rolleyes:
Exactly, how do we know it will be worse if we don't at least try the alternative. This not changing anything is clearly not working.
It just reminds me of people who want to ban films, books etc because of what they heard, but then claim that they have not seen it, read it or experienced it.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »Yes, I agree assuming he is convicted of such an offence.
Perjury is a very serious offence but like all offences I believe in the right to presumed innocence. If said minister is prosecuted by the DPP and convicted of such an offence then yes, I would fully agree with your assessment that he should not remain a government minister. Until then I think he is entitled to the same presumed innocence as the rest of us.
So how do you reconcile your support for FF and their acceptance of Beverly Cooper Flynn who was found to have behaved quite unethically. And since rejoining FF she has been claiming an Independent TD allowance.
Or their acceptance of Michael Lowry, a tribunal found him guilty of tax evasion (and he was alleged to have been involved in many a dodgy scheme)0 -
i dont believe this rubbish that bertie says someone pushed him out of office,he basically knew the "boom" was over and like rats fleeing the property titanic the developers and bertie jumped ship...0
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Laminations wrote: »So how do you reconcile your support for FF and their acceptance of Beverly Cooper Flynn who was found to have behaved quite unethically. And since rejoining FF she has been claiming an Independent TD allowance.
FF kicked Beverley Flynn out when it was clear that she had behaved unethically. I certainly would have preferred had she stayed outside the party and the 'forgiveness' offered to her by the party is not something that I would have supported. . . However it is certainly not a reason for me to walk away from FF. .
When it was discovered that she was claiming the independent allowance, Brian Cowen stopped it immediately.laminations wrote:Or their acceptance of Michael Lowry, a tribunal found him guilty of tax evasion (and he was alleged to have been involved in many a dodgy scheme)
I have no problem with this at all. . . Post a general election it is the duty of all elected TD's to try to form a government . . . The way the numbers have fallen in Ireland this almost always requires the support of independents. If making an arrangement with Michael Lowry enables FF to form a government and agree an effective programme for government, then they have a duty to make such an arrangement.0 -
Liam Byrne wrote: »I'm stunned!
We might "all remember the last Fine Gael / Labour coalition", but we can also all remember the last and current FF Government.
Add in the fact that a selection of the Irish electorate seem to only vote for FG when FF really screw us over, and it means they obviously can't flash the cash.
No Government in the history of the state had as much cash at their disposal as FF had, and they still managed to not invest for the future, nor restructure politics for the future, nor manage it properly; they actually steered it head-first into the ground.
So no-one can possibly compare FG or Labour or any other Government with the current shower and have the current shower come out looking good.
Once again I will say it. I may distrust fianna fail but fianna gael gave us michael lowry and dennis o brien so when you talk about squander.
I would actually vote fianna gael if I thought they would get in on there own. I would even vote labour. But the thoughts of an egotestical wannabee socialist(Eamonn Gilmore) trying to work with richard bruton(notice i left out enda). This is a combination that will never happen nor ever work.0 -
Joey the lips wrote: »Once again I will say it. I may distrust fianna fail but fianna gael gave us michael lowry and dennis o brien so when you talk about squander.
And once he was found out, he was removed.
Unlike what happened when FF con-men were found out; they were clapped on the back, defended, spun, given the nod to
Who, by the way, is Michael Lowry in bed with (metaphorically) these days ? If you have such an objection to him, why does that not bother you ?Joey the lips wrote: »This is a combination that mightwill never happen and might norever work.
......but it's still better than one that's proven NOT to work, and that hasn't learnt a single thing, and that imposes its own self-interested laws and taxes (changes to FOI, "green" taxes, levies) instead of doing stuff that people actually want (weeding out corruption, the promised zero tolerance, political reform)0 -
Liam Byrne wrote: »And once he was found out, he was removed.
Unlike what happened when FF con-men were found out; they were clapped on the back, defended, spun, given the nod to
Who, by the way, is Michael Lowry in bed with (metaphorically) these days ? If you have such an objection to him, why does that not bother you ?
......but it's still better than one that's proven NOT to work, and that hasn't learnt a single thing, and that imposes its own self-interested laws and taxes (changes to FOI, "green" taxes, levies) instead of doing stuff that people actually want (weeding out corruption, the promised zero tolerance, political reform)
Your right I will give you that but a coalation I will never trust. Put richard bruton in the driving seat and you might see a difference in my opinion0 -
Actually, she was expelled in 2001 and re-admitted in 2002hallelujajordan wrote: »FF kicked Beverley Flynn out when it was clear that she had behaved unethically. I certainly would have preferred had she stayed outside the party and the 'forgiveness' offered to her by the party is not something that I would have supported. . . However it is certainly not a reason for me to walk away from FF. .
No, when it became public knowledge that she was claiming it, he was forced to stop her from getting it.When it was discovered that she was claiming the independent allowance, Brian Cowen stopped it immediately.
They have a duty to distribute "goodies" in shady deals to corrupt gombeens?I have no problem with this at all. . . Post a general election it is the duty of all elected TD's to try to form a government . . . The way the numbers have fallen in Ireland this almost always requires the support of independents. If making an arrangement with Michael Lowry enables FF to form a government and agree an effective programme for government, then they have a duty to make such an arrangement.0 -
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Actually, she was expelled in 2001 and re-admitted in 2002
Yes, and then re-expelled in 2004 once the her libel case was over and readmitted in 2007 post the election . . Whats your point, I've already said I was not in agreement with the reamittance.
That is based on an assumption that he knew that she was claiming it . . . Do you have any evidence to back up such an assumption ?No, when it became public knowledge that she was claiming it, he was forced to stop her from getting it.They have a duty to distribute "goodies" in shady deals to corrupt gombeens?
They have a duty to form a government; When the balance of power rests with corrupt gombeens like it did in 2007 there is little choice but to make a deal.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »FF kicked Beverley Flynn out when it was clear that she had behaved unethically. I certainly would have preferred had she stayed outside the party and the 'forgiveness' offered to her by the party is not something that I would have supported. . . However it is certainly not a reason for me to walk away from FF. .
When it was discovered that she was claiming the independent allowance, Brian Cowen stopped it immediately.
I have no problem with this at all. . . Post a general election it is the duty of all elected TD's to try to form a government . . . The way the numbers have fallen in Ireland this almost always requires the support of independents. If making an arrangement with Michael Lowry enables FF to form a government and agree an effective programme for government, then they have a duty to make such an arrangement.
Ahern didnt need Lowry's vote after the last general election ! He choose to take Ahern on board. Of course as revealed at the Mahon Tribunal, Ahern also had issues with the revenue Commissioners:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mahon-tribunal/a-political-donation-for-my-personal-use-ahern-1295334.html
http://www.joanburton.ie/?postid=785
Some comment from the irish Independent on Michael Lowry's tax affairs:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/exminister-and-retired-senator-to-the-fore-on-new-revenue-list-1088874.htmknown !0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »Yes, I agree assuming he is convicted of such an offence.
Perjury is a very serious offence but like all offences I believe in the right to presumed innocence. If said minister is prosecuted by the DPP and convicted of such an offence then yes, I would fully agree with your assessment that he should not remain a government minister. Until then I think he is entitled to the same presumed innocence as the rest of us.
Ah the old due process and everyone is innocent until proclaimed guilty.
It alsmost worked for ff coucillor in Bellturbet didn't it.
Oh wait he was found guilty of child abuse and only admitted it when foreign national victim turned up in court.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1221/odeaw.html
The minister of defense applogised to a court for making lisleading and false statements.
Thus I believe that could be seen as lying to a court in an affidavit.
He only apologised for this when the journalist provided a tape of him making false alegations.
Now to me and a hell of a lot more people in this country that appears to be prejury before a court.
He is of course technically innocent of perjury, because lo and behold he hasn't been charged with it. :rolleyes:
I wonder why ?
Here are couple of laws about perjury, does his actions fall under them I wonder ?Making false declarations has been an offence since 1835:-
Statutory Declarations Act, 1938, Section 6
6.—Every person who makes a statutory declaration which to his knowledge is false or misleading in any material respect shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or, at the discretion of the Court, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.Finally, the Dail party on the 7th July, 2009, voted for the Defamation Act, 2006, which contained this section.
“(6) If a person makes a statement in an affidavit under this section—
(a) that is false or misleading in any material respect, and
(b) that he or she knows to be false or misleading,
he or she shall be guilty of an offence.
(7) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €3,000, or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €50,000, or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years, or to both.”
Alright do you still think he should remain as a government minister ?
YES or NO please.hallelujajordan wrote: »FF kicked Beverley Flynn out when it was clear that she had behaved unethically. I certainly would have preferred had she stayed outside the party and the 'forgiveness' offered to her by the party is not something that I would have supported. . . However it is certainly not a reason for me to walk away from FF. .
What about burke, lawlor, ppars, woods/aherns sweet deal with the church on abusers, e-voting, haughey ?
Nah don't bother answering it, since seeing your continued fan worship of ould bertie sleveen I already know the answer.Joey the lips wrote: »Once again I will say it. I may distrust fianna fail but fianna gael gave us michael lowry and dennis o brien so when you talk about squander.
HELLO
what about PPARS, e-voting, national stadium that never was, LUAS overruns, M50 toll bridge, Port Tunnel, Fás, HSE, DDDA.
No squandering there then ?
Yes FG gave us lowry but they soon dumped him rather than promoted him further.
Thinking of burke when I say that.
And speaking of burke wasn't he involved in granting radio licenses and oil exploration deals ?Joey the lips wrote: »I would actually vote fianna gael if I thought they would get in on there own. I would even vote labour. But the thoughts of an egotestical wannabee socialist(Eamonn Gilmore) trying to work with richard bruton(notice i left out enda). This is a combination that will never happen nor ever work.
Somehow I reckon you wouldn't vote FG or Labour :rolleyes:
Oh and remember how one of the finance ministers that laid foundations for real Celtic Tiger was one Ruairi Quinn Labour.
Actually he was a damm good minister of finance especially when compared to his sucessors.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I have no problem with this at all. . . Post a general election it is the duty of all elected TD's to try to form a government . . . The way the numbers have fallen in Ireland this almost always requires the support of independents. If making an arrangement with Michael Lowry enables FF to form a government and agree an effective programme for government, then they have a duty to make such an arrangement.
What I see here is: it's perfectly acceptable for them to work with people who have proven dodgy pasts in an effort to get into power. Does that sum up your view of FF?0 -
It might be appropriate to point out at this stage, that ethical standards in Dail Eireann and the penalities for breaches of these standards should not have to depend on convictions in court. In a lot of cases breaches of ethical standards will not be in themselves breaches of any of our laws.0
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hallelujajordan wrote: »FF kicked Beverley Flynn out when it was clear that she had behaved unethically. I certainly would have preferred had she stayed outside the party and the 'forgiveness' offered to her by the party is not something that I would have supported. . . However it is certainly not a reason for me to walk away from FF. .
When it was discovered that she was claiming the independent allowance, Brian Cowen stopped it immediately.
I have no problem with this at all. . . Post a general election it is the duty of all elected TD's to try to form a government . . . The way the numbers have fallen in Ireland this almost always requires the support of independents. If making an arrangement with Michael Lowry enables FF to form a government and agree an effective programme for government, then they have a duty to make such an arrangement.
I have a big problem with this. To stop corrupt people from holding office, it should be law that anybody found guilty of corruption be banned from serving in office. Anybody under serious investigation - i.e Bertie - should be suspended from office. The definition of "serious" would need to be clearly defined to eliminate ambiguity. Would FF introduce such a law?.....not a hope. They are in power for the majority of our independence, so what is their excuse? The fact that corrupt individuals such as Lowry et al are even elected shows how some of the electorate think.
You mention that Bev being invited back to the party - despite her character and integrity etc - is not enough for you to leave FF, what is enough? What would make you see the light?0 -
is for Sinn Fein to have enough seats to keep the corporate parties on their toes.0
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It might be appropriate to point out at this stage, that ethical standards in Dail Eireann and the penalities for breaches of these standards should not have to depend on convictions in court. In a lot of cases breaches of ethical standards will not be in themselves breaches of any of our laws.
Spot on. There needs to be a distinction between ethically correct and legally correct behaviour for members in public life. I heard Peter Robinson mention the 7 principles of public office on the news when he was trying to justify his return. I'm aware they are for the UK but I think Bertie would fail on every single one. Support for him shows contempt for the idea of standards in public office0 -
Laminations wrote: »Spot on. There needs to be a distinction between ethically correct and legally correct behaviour for members in public life. I heard Peter Robinson mention the 7 principles of public office on the news when he was trying to justify his return. I'm aware they are for the UK but I think Bertie would fail on every single one. Support for him shows contempt for the idea of standards in public office
Thanks for that link !
"Leadership
Holders of public office should promote and support these principles by leadership and example."
Who would argue that Bertie Ahern has done this ?0
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