Bertie in 2007 asking us not to gamble with Irelands future!

Duffy7

Saw this and made my blood boil a bit.
"Today you face a critical choice about Irelands future. Its a choice whether Ireland goes forward or back, between costed policies that are working or a gamble with Irelands future”.

Hadn't Bertie and the gang gambled Irelands future away already at that stage.... and we're the ones paying for it now.

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/02/02/good-morning-voter-from-your-local-representative-bertie-ahern-fianna-fail-2007-dublin-central/

norrie rugger

Duffy7 wrote: »

Saw this and made my blood boil a bit.
"Today you face a critical choice about Irelands future. Its a choice whether Ireland goes forward or back, between costed policies that are working or a gamble with Irelands future”.

Hadn't Bertie and the gang gambled Irelands future away already at that stage.... and we're the ones paying for it now.

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/02/02/good-morning-voter-from-your-local-representative-bertie-ahern-fianna-fail-2007-dublin-central/

I would say no to the highlighted bit.
Gambling indicates a potential pay off.

Now "Squandered"

Overheal

How come no politician asks for a number 2 vote anyway? "I know you're just going to vote the same fukkin way you have for the last 30 years but go on, make me your number 2." - Green Party

yop

Duffy7 wrote: »

Saw this and made my blood boil a bit.
"Today you face a critical choice about Irelands future. Its a choice whether Ireland goes forward or back, between costed policies that are working or a gamble with Irelands future”.

Hadn't Bertie and the gang gambled Irelands future away already at that stage.... and we're the ones paying for it now.

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/02/02/good-morning-voter-from-your-local-representative-bertie-ahern-fianna-fail-2007-dublin-central/

Brass neck comes to mind!

rightwingdub

Brass neck is right, then again the mind boggles if Enda Kenny was now Taoiseach and the former marxist Pat Rabbittee as minister for finance, jaysus the Labour lads would have ruled out even the smallest pay cuts for public sector workers, believe it or not even though Biffo is incompetent I actually think Kenny is even worse.

Liam Byrne

Ah if we all - ahem - "gambled" the way he did on the "horses in Manchester" we'd be swimming in money by now!

jmayo

rightwingdub wrote: »

Brass neck is right, then again the mind boggles if Enda Kenny was now Taoiseach and the former marxist Pat Rabbittee as minister for finance, jaysus the Labour lads would have ruled out even the smallest pay cuts for public sector workers, believe it or not even though Biffo is incompetent I actually think Kenny is even worse.

Please provide examples of Kenny's incompetence rather than just glib remarks.

Here why not answer a few questions to check how accurate your statement is.
Did Kenny, as minister of finance, allow the property bubble to continue to the boil by allowing tax breaks for developers, land owners, speculators and investors ?

Remember clowen did nothing about section 23s/section50s, but let them continue.
He never brought in higher capital gains tax for property sale.
He allowed developers use loophole to avoid paying stamp duty.
Should I go on jogging your memory ?

Did Kenny ever state that there should not be banking enquiry ?

Was Kenny responsible for Dept of Finance during the period that the regulatory authorities fell asleep and allowed our banks run amuck and make them insolvent ?

Was Kenny a member of a party that saw nothing wrong with it's leader not having a bank account but wads of cash in his safe ?

Was Kenny a member of the government that brought NAMA into being ?

Did Kenny actually think hair brained scheme of taking unpaid days off was a means of cutting public sector wage bill ?

Did Kenny come out and say the former CEO of Fás was a fine upstanding public servant even though he presided over a corrupt and wasteful regime in the organisation ?

Has Kenny brought someone onto his front bench, hell as second in command, who is a complete an utter incompetent joke ?

I could on and on.

Kenny's so called incompetence has been on TV chat shows and in front of tv cameras.
So far this so awful incompetence (always pedalled for ffers and their lackie journos) hasn't cost the state 12-15 billion and in the long term anything upto 50 to 70 billion.

When it does then talk about him being more incompetent than clowen.

Or maybe you are another so called objective poster ?

Liam Byrne

rightwingdub wrote: »

Brass neck is right, then again the mind boggles if Enda Kenny was now Taoiseach and the former marxist Pat Rabbittee as minister for finance, jaysus the Labour lads would have ruled out even the smallest pay cuts for public sector workers, believe it or not even though Biffo is incompetent I actually think Kenny is even worse.

If FG had been in power we probably wouldn't have needed the pay cuts.

anymore

Duffy7 wrote: »

Saw this and made my blood boil a bit.
"Today you face a critical choice about Irelands future. Its a choice whether Ireland goes forward or back, between costed policies that are working or a gamble with Irelands future”.

Hadn't Bertie and the gang gambled Irelands future away already at that stage.... and we're the ones paying for it now.

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/02/02/good-morning-voter-from-your-local-representative-bertie-ahern-fianna-fail-2007-dublin-central/

Well strictly speaking, he was right. we have gone backwards !
The question is how far backwards we will go ?
Am I right in assuming that unemployment was never before as high as 400,000 ?

yoshytoshy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If FG had been in power we probably wouldn't have needed the pay cuts.

I doubt fianna gael would have allowed wages to sore ,just to fund the property bubble and take easy money from stamp duty, construction employment etc.
Christ ,the pharmacies are lowering their prices by 40% ,just like that. WTF ?

Theres just so much damage done ,health service ,bad planning ,crap public transport ,high unemployment.
We're left stranded by a bunch of overpaid ,underworked egotists.

Joey the lips

The big probelm in ireland is not that there is a general hatred of Fianna fail. The big problem is that there is a distrust that Fine Gael and Labour can do better. We all remember the last fianna gael labour coalation and to call it as it is Eamonn Gilmore is no more a Socialist than Bertie was but there is no way he will play second fiddle to Enda Kenny.

So unfor while I distrust and hate to vote for fianna fail I will always vote for them as long as its looking like a fine gael labour coalation.

yop

I THINK that Kenny may have done better, BUT look at it this way, are Fine Gael/Labour REALLY any better?

Where are they now with the appointment of O'Donoghue to the 2 new posts? I don't hear them complaining?

Where are they when the top civil servants met with Government before Xmas and demanded that they were committed from paycuts?

Where were they for numerous X,Y and Z other times when they as opposition should have stood up for us?

Sometimes I do think that there really is no difference, put the power in their hands and would they honestly give a sh1t about the rest of us?

jmayo

yop wrote: »

I THINK that Kenny may have done better, BUT look at it this way, are Fine Gael/Labour REALLY any better?

Where are they now with the appointment of O'Donoghue to the 2 new posts? I don't hear them complaining?

Where are they when the top civil servants met with Government before Xmas and demanded that they were committed from paycuts?

Where were they for numerous X,Y and Z other times when they as opposition should have stood up for us?

Sometimes I do think that there really is no difference, put the power in their hands and would they honestly give a sh1t about the rest of us?

Actually they are tabling a motion in the Dáil about the top public servants not having salary cuts like the rest.

It was put to Mattie McGrath (ff TD Tipperary) this morning on Morning Ireland if he would vote with FG on this motion, seen that he has been complaining to ff party that they are bringing this unfair ammendment into the original public sector pay cut.
He hemmed and hawed about it, but belately said he would not rule it out.

He will do the usual joe behan trick (or the two boyos in Sligo) of resigning the whip on some issue that they know won't bring down the government i.e. their party.
One ff always ff is my belief.
The party is the most important thing after all.

Sadly this motion will be defeated since the indos, the greens are bought off and all the ffers included the above bunch will vote whatever way clowen demands them to.

Just because Kenny or some other FG isn't shouting from the rooftops doesn't mean they aren't doing something.
Of course Gilmore is very good at shouting, but I worry he is interested in appeasing his union brothers.

Of course I would rather they were leading a lynch mob to finally get rid of the wastes that we label our government, but that is just my personal opinion.

anymore

yop wrote: »

I THINK that Kenny may have done better, BUT look at it this way, are Fine Gael/Labour REALLY any better?

Where are they now with the appointment of O'Donoghue to the 2 new posts? I don't hear them complaining?

Where are they when the top civil servants met with Government before Xmas and demanded that they were committed from paycuts?

Where were they for numerous X,Y and Z other times when they as opposition should have stood up for us?

Sometimes I do think that there really is no difference, put the power in their hands and would they honestly give a sh1t about the rest of us?

Follow that line of logic and we may as well establish one party permanent government altogether !

However before we go to that extreme, we are fortunate in having a precedent to suggest that in fact Fine Gael has behaved with integrity, honour, and a reckless disregard for its own electoral fortunes. That example was of course the famous 'Tallaght Strategy' as devised and implemented by FG's then leader Alan Dukes. Basically he promised not to oppose any economic proposals by FF which were for the benefit of the then beleaguered economy. It was as noble and as unselfish an act as any ever done by any political party in Ireland. Fine Gael to be given credit for this.
If there another doubts as to the differences between FG and FF, bear in mind that the big majority of politicians who have featured in Tribunals in one kind or other have been FF politicians - let the facts speak !

Rookster

I am surprised Bertie got it so wrong with the country's finances. I mean, he had such a success rate at backing horses I thought we would be in the money now. Maybe he is better at backing horses than "Tigers".

Liam Byrne

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I doubt fianna gael would have allowed wages to sore ,just to fund the property bubble and take easy money from stamp duty, construction employment etc.

Precisely my point. And combined with that I doubt that they wouldn have crashed us into the ground head-on or bailed out the bwankers.

So the pay cuts wouldn't have been required.

Liam Byrne

Joey the lips wrote: »

The big probelm in ireland is not that there is a general hatred of Fianna fail. The big problem is that there is a distrust that Fine Gael and Labour can do better. We all remember the last fianna gael labour coalation and to call it as it is Eamonn Gilmore is no more a Socialist than Bertie was but there is no way he will play second fiddle to Enda Kenny.

So unfor while I distrust and hate to vote for fianna fail I will always vote for them as long as its looking like a fine gael labour coalation.[b

I'm stunned!

We might "all remember the last Fine Gael / Labour coalition", but we can also all remember the last and current FF Government.

Add in the fact that a selection of the Irish electorate seem to only vote for FG when FF really screw us over, and it means they obviously can't flash the cash.

No Government in the history of the state had as much cash at their disposal as FF had, and they still managed to not invest for the future, nor restructure politics for the future, nor manage it properly; they actually steered it head-first into the ground.

So no-one can possibly compare FG or Labour or any other Government with the current shower and have the current shower come out looking good.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Precisely my point. And combined with that I doubt that they wouldn have crashed us into the ground head-on or bailed out the bwankers.

So the pay cuts wouldn't have been required.

That is complete conjecture and its really easy for you to say that if FG were in power they wouldn't have done this, that or t'other however to be fair, there is little evidence to support your conclusion. During the noughties the opposition were not proposing radically different economic policies. . in fact, at times Fianna Fail were criticised for not spending enough.

Having said that, whether they would have or not is now an historical question and is of little interest to me.. What is important to me is the future . . what is most important for Ireland in our current situation is that we have a stable government that are strong enough (and aligned enough) to make difficult decisions. Based on their performance in opposition, their ideological differences and their relative egos I simply cannot see how a FG / Labour coalition can be anything other than a retrogade move (much to Yops/Joey the Lips point, regardless of what you think of FF !!) . . In fact, I think I'd prefer to see FG elected with an overall majority than to see an unstable Gilmore / Kenny partnership.

Rookster

The pay cuts were needed regardless. Our Public service is one the most overpaid and pampered in the world.

hallelujajordan

jmayo wrote: »

Of course I would rather they were leading a lynch mob to finally get rid of the wastes that we label our government, but that is just my personal opinion.

You're not a fan of democracy then ?

nacho libre

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm stunned!

We might "all remember the last Fine Gael / Labour coalition", but we can also all remember the last and current FF Government.

Add in the fact that a selection of the Irish electorate seem to only vote for FG when FF really screw us over, and it means they obviously can't flash the cash.

No Government in the history of the state had as much cash at their disposal as FF had, and they still managed to not invest for the future, nor restructure politics for the future, nor manage it properly; they actually steered it head-first into the ground.

So no-one can possibly compare FG or Labour or any other Government with the current shower and have the current shower come out looking good.

you might and others here, who are disillusioned and angry, may remember and not be hoodwinked, but in nine-14 months time many disenfrancished former ff voters will start coming back on board and the ff spin doctors will be out in force hammering home the message that ff introduced the tough love, showed leadership in crisis, and they'll say if FG had been power we'd never have got out this mess.
a friend of mine, with it has to be said refreshing honesty, once told me he voted fianna fail because they put money in his pocket(i've resisted the temptation to remind him of this;) ) he is now angry like many people but once his pockets start to fill up again i bet he'll be back voting fianna fail.

yop

anymore wrote: »

Follow that line of logic and we may as well establish one party permanent government altogether !

However before we go to that extreme, we are fortunate in having a precedent to suggest that in fact Fine Gael has behaved with integrity, honour, and a reckless disregard for its own electoral fortunes. That example was of course the famous 'Tallaght Strategy' as devised and implemented by FG's then leader Alan Dukes. Basically he promised not to oppose any economic proposals by FF which were for the benefit of the then beleaguered economy. It was as noble and as unselfish an act as any ever done by any political party in Ireland. Fine Gael to be given credit for this.
If there another doubts as to the differences between FG and FF, bear in mind that the big majority of politicians who have featured in Tribunals in one kind or other have been FF politicians - let the facts speak !

I know what you are saying, but, IF Fine Gael were in power would it not be the FG politicians in the tribunals?

Hopefully sooner rather than later we will get a chance for FG to change things though!

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You're not a fan of democracy then ?

Not Ireland's version of democracy.

Your party hierarchy are very lucky they don't inhabit many countries, because trust me they would have been kicked through the streets for some of the sh** they have pulled.
But we Irish are too mild mannered and easily bought to truly rise up.

BTW how do you feel about the latest little misdemeanour of your beloved party representatives?
Do you agree that a man who prejured himself in a court of this state should not remain a government minister ?
No BS, just yes or no answer please.

yop wrote: »

I know what you are saying, but, IF Fine Gael were in power would it not be the FG politicians in the tribunals?

Hopefully sooner rather than later we will get a chance for FG to change things though!

How can you say it would be FG politicans in the tribunals ?
At the time haughey and his cabal (flynn, lawlor, burke, ahern, woods) were running ff you had Fitzgerald first and then Dukes running FG.
Now I don't think anyone could ever say either of those men were of the lowlife calibre that haughey and his buddies exhited.

And before some ffers come on shouting about how dare I say such a thing, he did after all siphon funds raised to send his long time comrade and staunch ally for life saving health treatment.
That truly shows the mark of the man.

haughey I beleive set the tone for that party.
His methodolgies and his moral compass were accepted and it destroyed what morality and ethics existed within the party.
People like the Andrews were sidelined or bullied into conformity.
We can see that from the tribunals, during the years of the Galway tent, and indeed we can see it throughout the mess we are in today.

Ahern made things even worse because whereas haughey would at least make long term decisions and take stands on issues, ahern just tried to ensure re-election at all costs and pandered to every interest group he could drag in.

anymore

yop wrote: »

I know what you are saying, but, IF Fine Gael were in power would it not be the FG politicians in the tribunals?

Hopefully sooner rather than later we will get a chance for FG to change things though!

Well to answer the question re tribunals, how many of the FG politicians from the Cosgrove/ Garret/Fitzgerald & Alan Dukes coalition governments were brought to the tribunals ?
I am not saying FG are perfect and can criticise many individual members of that party. However FG did cut themselves off from FG politicians such as Lowry whilst the Bertie Ahern led FF have taken him to its heart.
One of the extraordinary things about FF supporters proposing Ahern for President is that Ahern has done such enormous damage to FF - indeed that could be the subject of a separate thread itself. Look at the damage done to FF's reputation when Ahern insisted on taking Beverly Cooper Flynn back to the party - that was not done for FF's benefit.
A change of Government is necessary if only for the sake of our democratic system - allowing the same party in Government for so long is unhealthy and the legacy of the Ahern FF years is to be seen in the 400,000+ unemployment figures and the burden of debt that must be shouldered for generations to come.

Laminations

yop wrote: »

I know what you are saying, but, IF Fine Gael were in power would it not be the FG politicians in the tribunals?

Maybe, but the fact is they are not. The fact is they didnt run the country into the ground. You wouldon't be allowed use the 'anyone else would have done it' as a defence in court. Saying and doing are two different things.

hallelujajordan

jmayo wrote: »

Not Ireland's version of democracy.

Your party hierarchy are very lucky they don't inhabit many countries, because trust me they would have been kicked through the streets for some of the sh** they have pulled.
But we Irish are too mild mannered and easily bought to truly rise up.

BTW how do you feel about the latest little misdemeanour of your beloved party representatives?
Do you agree that a man who prejured himself in a court of this state should not remain a government minister ?
No BS, just yes or no answer please.

Yes, I agree assuming he is convicted of such an offence.

Perjury is a very serious offence but like all offences I believe in the right to presumed innocence. If said minister is prosecuted by the DPP and convicted of such an offence then yes, I would fully agree with your assessment that he should not remain a government minister. Until then I think he is entitled to the same presumed innocence as the rest of us.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

That is complete conjecture and its really easy for you to say that if FG were in power they wouldn't have done this, that or t'other

So if someone is found guilty of murder, do you let them off the hook on the basis that someone else who was there would have done it anyway ?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yes, I agree assuming he is convicted of such an offence.

Perjury is a very serious offence but like all offences I believe in the right to presumed innocence.

For someone who argues that Ahern is innocent until proven guilty, you seem very quick to assume FG would be as guilty as FF have been!

Why the double-standard ?

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So if someone is found guilty of murder, do you let them off the hook on the basis that someone else who was there would have done it anyway ?



For someone who argues that Ahern is innocent until proven guilty, you seem very quick to assume FG would be as guilty as FF have been!

Why the double-standard ?

That's just ridiculous !!!!

. . . I'm not assuming they would have been guilty. . . I'm just countering your conjecture that they wouldn't have. . .

You state clearly that FG would not have overspent during the boom time when a) you have no evidence to support that and b) any evidence that does exist points to the contrary . .

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'm just countering your conjecture that they wouldn't have. . .

Conjecture it may be, but it's based on their previous track record. Why would they suddenly become wasteful and corrupt ?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You state clearly that FG would not have overspent during the boom time when a) you have no evidence to support that and b) any evidence that does exist points to the contrary . .

Evidence points to the fact that FF wasted our boom, and fuelled it to the point of it bursting, and then bailed out their buddies.

So apologies - I didn't realise that you put that much credence on evidence.

Laminations

Someone accused those who want a change of being angry and disillusioned but our arguments are based on logic and facts while those who support FF are based on on opinion (which seemingly cant be debated) and hypothetical situations. If you want to set up a thread about Bertie being a good politician then i'll be glad to debate you there.

Taxipete29

Joey the lips wrote: »

The big probelm in ireland is not that there is a general hatred of Fianna fail. The big problem is that there is a distrust that Fine Gael and Labour can do better. We all remember the last fianna gael labour coalation and to call it as it is Eamonn Gilmore is no more a Socialist than Bertie was but there is no way he will play second fiddle to Enda Kenny.

So unfor while I distrust and hate to vote for fianna fail I will always vote for them as long as its looking like a fine gael labour coalation.

Its this kind of ridiculous logic that has this country in the mess its in right now. " Better not change anything in case it gets worse" :rolleyes:

anymore

Laminations wrote: »

Someone accused those who want a change of being angry and disillusioned but our arguments are based on logic and facts while those who support FF are based on on opinion (which seemingly cant be debated) and hypothetical situations. If you want to set up a thread about Bertie being a good politician then i'll be glad to debate you there.

I second that proposal for a thread about Bertie being a good politician and will back up any statements I make with references and facts and figures. Facts tell a story, opinions merely muddy the waters.

Eutow

nacho libre wrote: »

you might and others here, who are disillusioned and angry, may remember and not be hoodwinked, but in nine-14 months time many disenfrancished former ff voters will start coming back on board and the ff spin doctors will be out in force hammering home the message that ff introduced the tough love, showed leadership in crisis, and they'll say if FG had been power we'd never have got out this mess.
a friend of mine, with it has to be said refreshing honesty, once told me he voted fianna fail because they put money in his pocket(i've resisted the temptation to remind him of this;) ) he is now angry like many people but once his pockets start to fill up again i bet he'll be back voting fianna fail.

Do all you can to remind your friend of the mess FF have made of the country. If it wasn't for their incompetence, your friend and everyone else would still have some money in their pocket. Keep the same crowd in, and sure in a few years time you might get some of your money back, though not all. Then FF will screw up again and you and everyone else (except bankers and politicians) will lose their money again. And so, the cycle will continue. Why do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result?
I'm sure I'm not the only one but I couldn't stomach another five years of the parasites we have in power.

Eutow

Joey the lips wrote: »

The big probelm in ireland is not that there is a general hatred of Fianna fail. The big problem is that there is a distrust that Fine Gael and Labour can do better. We all remember the last fianna gael labour coalation and to call it as it is Eamonn Gilmore is no more a Socialist than Bertie was but there is no way he will play second fiddle to Enda Kenny.

So unfor while I distrust and hate to vote for fianna fail I will always vote for them as long as its looking like a fine gael labour coalation.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Its this kind of ridiculous logic that has this country in the mess its in right now. " Better not change anything in case it gets worse" :rolleyes:

Exactly, how do we know it will be worse if we don't at least try the alternative. This not changing anything is clearly not working.

It just reminds me of people who want to ban films, books etc because of what they heard, but then claim that they have not seen it, read it or experienced it.

Laminations

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yes, I agree assuming he is convicted of such an offence.

Perjury is a very serious offence but like all offences I believe in the right to presumed innocence. If said minister is prosecuted by the DPP and convicted of such an offence then yes, I would fully agree with your assessment that he should not remain a government minister. Until then I think he is entitled to the same presumed innocence as the rest of us.

So how do you reconcile your support for FF and their acceptance of Beverly Cooper Flynn who was found to have behaved quite unethically. And since rejoining FF she has been claiming an Independent TD allowance.

Or their acceptance of Michael Lowry, a tribunal found him guilty of tax evasion (and he was alleged to have been involved in many a dodgy scheme)

97i9y3941

i dont believe this rubbish that bertie says someone pushed him out of office,he basically knew the "boom" was over and like rats fleeing the property titanic the developers and bertie jumped ship...

hallelujajordan

Laminations wrote: »

So how do you reconcile your support for FF and their acceptance of Beverly Cooper Flynn who was found to have behaved quite unethically. And since rejoining FF she has been claiming an Independent TD allowance.

FF kicked Beverley Flynn out when it was clear that she had behaved unethically. I certainly would have preferred had she stayed outside the party and the 'forgiveness' offered to her by the party is not something that I would have supported. . . However it is certainly not a reason for me to walk away from FF. .

When it was discovered that she was claiming the independent allowance, Brian Cowen stopped it immediately.

laminations wrote:

Or their acceptance of Michael Lowry, a tribunal found him guilty of tax evasion (and he was alleged to have been involved in many a dodgy scheme)

I have no problem with this at all. . . Post a general election it is the duty of all elected TD's to try to form a government . . . The way the numbers have fallen in Ireland this almost always requires the support of independents. If making an arrangement with Michael Lowry enables FF to form a government and agree an effective programme for government, then they have a duty to make such an arrangement.

Joey the lips

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm stunned!

We might "all remember the last Fine Gael / Labour coalition", but we can also all remember the last and current FF Government.

Add in the fact that a selection of the Irish electorate seem to only vote for FG when FF really screw us over, and it means they obviously can't flash the cash.

No Government in the history of the state had as much cash at their disposal as FF had, and they still managed to not invest for the future, nor restructure politics for the future, nor manage it properly; they actually steered it head-first into the ground.

So no-one can possibly compare FG or Labour or any other Government with the current shower and have the current shower come out looking good.

Once again I will say it. I may distrust fianna fail but fianna gael gave us michael lowry and dennis o brien so when you talk about squander.

I would actually vote fianna gael if I thought they would get in on there own. I would even vote labour. But the thoughts of an egotestical wannabee socialist(Eamonn Gilmore) trying to work with richard bruton(notice i left out enda). This is a combination that will never happen nor ever work.

Liam Byrne

Joey the lips wrote: »

Once again I will say it. I may distrust fianna fail but fianna gael gave us michael lowry and dennis o brien so when you talk about squander.

And once he was found out, he was removed.

Unlike what happened when FF con-men were found out; they were clapped on the back, defended, spun, given the nod to

Who, by the way, is Michael Lowry in bed with (metaphorically) these days ? If you have such an objection to him, why does that not bother you ?

Joey the lips wrote: »

This is a combination that mightwill never happen and might norever work.

......but it's still better than one that's proven NOT to work, and that hasn't learnt a single thing, and that imposes its own self-interested laws and taxes (changes to FOI, "green" taxes, levies) instead of doing stuff that people actually want (weeding out corruption, the promised zero tolerance, political reform)

Joey the lips

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And once he was found out, he was removed.

Unlike what happened when FF con-men were found out; they were clapped on the back, defended, spun, given the nod to

Who, by the way, is Michael Lowry in bed with (metaphorically) these days ? If you have such an objection to him, why does that not bother you ?



......but it's still better than one that's proven NOT to work, and that hasn't learnt a single thing, and that imposes its own self-interested laws and taxes (changes to FOI, "green" taxes, levies) instead of doing stuff that people actually want (weeding out corruption, the promised zero tolerance, political reform)

Your right I will give you that but a coalation I will never trust. Put richard bruton in the driving seat and you might see a difference in my opinion

goose2005

hallelujajordan wrote: »

FF kicked Beverley Flynn out when it was clear that she had behaved unethically. I certainly would have preferred had she stayed outside the party and the 'forgiveness' offered to her by the party is not something that I would have supported. . . However it is certainly not a reason for me to walk away from FF. .

Actually, she was expelled in 2001 and re-admitted in 2002

When it was discovered that she was claiming the independent allowance, Brian Cowen stopped it immediately.

No, when it became public knowledge that she was claiming it, he was forced to stop her from getting it.

I have no problem with this at all. . . Post a general election it is the duty of all elected TD's to try to form a government . . . The way the numbers have fallen in Ireland this almost always requires the support of independents. If making an arrangement with Michael Lowry enables FF to form a government and agree an effective programme for government, then they have a duty to make such an arrangement.

They have a duty to distribute "goodies" in shady deals to corrupt gombeens?

hallelujajordan

goose2005 wrote: »

Actually, she was expelled in 2001 and re-admitted in 2002

Yes, and then re-expelled in 2004 once the her libel case was over and readmitted in 2007 post the election . . Whats your point, I've already said I was not in agreement with the reamittance.

No, when it became public knowledge that she was claiming it, he was forced to stop her from getting it.

That is based on an assumption that he knew that she was claiming it . . . Do you have any evidence to back up such an assumption ?

They have a duty to distribute "goodies" in shady deals to corrupt gombeens?

They have a duty to form a government; When the balance of power rests with corrupt gombeens like it did in 2007 there is little choice but to make a deal.

anymore

hallelujajordan wrote: »

FF kicked Beverley Flynn out when it was clear that she had behaved unethically. I certainly would have preferred had she stayed outside the party and the 'forgiveness' offered to her by the party is not something that I would have supported. . . However it is certainly not a reason for me to walk away from FF. .

When it was discovered that she was claiming the independent allowance, Brian Cowen stopped it immediately.



I have no problem with this at all. . . Post a general election it is the duty of all elected TD's to try to form a government . . . The way the numbers have fallen in Ireland this almost always requires the support of independents. If making an arrangement with Michael Lowry enables FF to form a government and agree an effective programme for government, then they have a duty to make such an arrangement.

Ahern didnt need Lowry's vote after the last general election ! He choose to take Ahern on board. Of course as revealed at the Mahon Tribunal, Ahern also had issues with the revenue Commissioners:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mahon-tribunal/a-political-donation-for-my-personal-use-ahern-1295334.html

http://www.joanburton.ie/?postid=785

Some comment from the irish Independent on Michael Lowry's tax affairs:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/exminister-and-retired-senator-to-the-fore-on-new-revenue-list-1088874.htmknown !

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yes, I agree assuming he is convicted of such an offence.

Perjury is a very serious offence but like all offences I believe in the right to presumed innocence. If said minister is prosecuted by the DPP and convicted of such an offence then yes, I would fully agree with your assessment that he should not remain a government minister. Until then I think he is entitled to the same presumed innocence as the rest of us.

Ah the old due process and everyone is innocent until proclaimed guilty.
It alsmost worked for ff coucillor in Bellturbet didn't it.
Oh wait he was found guilty of child abuse and only admitted it when foreign national victim turned up in court.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1221/odeaw.html

The minister of defense applogised to a court for making lisleading and false statements.
Thus I believe that could be seen as lying to a court in an affidavit.

He only apologised for this when the journalist provided a tape of him making false alegations.

Now to me and a hell of a lot more people in this country that appears to be prejury before a court.
He is of course technically innocent of perjury, because lo and behold he hasn't been charged with it. :rolleyes:
I wonder why ?

Here are couple of laws about perjury, does his actions fall under them I wonder ?

Making false declarations has been an offence since 1835:-
Statutory Declarations Act, 1938, Section 6
6.—Every person who makes a statutory declaration which to his knowledge is false or misleading in any material respect shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or, at the discretion of the Court, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.

Finally, the Dail party on the 7th July, 2009, voted for the Defamation Act, 2006, which contained this section.

“(6) If a person makes a statement in an affidavit under this section—
(a) that is false or misleading in any material respect, and
(b) that he or she knows to be false or misleading,
he or she shall be guilty of an offence.
(7) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €3,000, or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €50,000, or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years, or to both.”

Alright do you still think he should remain as a government minister ?
YES or NO please.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

FF kicked Beverley Flynn out when it was clear that she had behaved unethically. I certainly would have preferred had she stayed outside the party and the 'forgiveness' offered to her by the party is not something that I would have supported. . . However it is certainly not a reason for me to walk away from FF. .

What about burke, lawlor, ppars, woods/aherns sweet deal with the church on abusers, e-voting, haughey ?

Nah don't bother answering it, since seeing your continued fan worship of ould bertie sleveen I already know the answer.

Joey the lips wrote: »

Once again I will say it. I may distrust fianna fail but fianna gael gave us michael lowry and dennis o brien so when you talk about squander.

HELLO
what about PPARS, e-voting, national stadium that never was, LUAS overruns, M50 toll bridge, Port Tunnel, Fás, HSE, DDDA.
No squandering there then ?
Yes FG gave us lowry but they soon dumped him rather than promoted him further.
Thinking of burke when I say that.

And speaking of burke wasn't he involved in granting radio licenses and oil exploration deals ?

Joey the lips wrote: »

I would actually vote fianna gael if I thought they would get in on there own. I would even vote labour. But the thoughts of an egotestical wannabee socialist(Eamonn Gilmore) trying to work with richard bruton(notice i left out enda). This is a combination that will never happen nor ever work.

Somehow I reckon you wouldn't vote FG or Labour :rolleyes:

Oh and remember how one of the finance ministers that laid foundations for real Celtic Tiger was one Ruairi Quinn Labour.
Actually he was a damm good minister of finance especially when compared to his sucessors.

markpb

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I have no problem with this at all. . . Post a general election it is the duty of all elected TD's to try to form a government . . . The way the numbers have fallen in Ireland this almost always requires the support of independents. If making an arrangement with Michael Lowry enables FF to form a government and agree an effective programme for government, then they have a duty to make such an arrangement.

What I see here is: it's perfectly acceptable for them to work with people who have proven dodgy pasts in an effort to get into power. Does that sum up your view of FF?

anymore

It might be appropriate to point out at this stage, that ethical standards in Dail Eireann and the penalities for breaches of these standards should not have to depend on convictions in court. In a lot of cases breaches of ethical standards will not be in themselves breaches of any of our laws.

Eutow

hallelujajordan wrote: »

FF kicked Beverley Flynn out when it was clear that she had behaved unethically. I certainly would have preferred had she stayed outside the party and the 'forgiveness' offered to her by the party is not something that I would have supported. . . However it is certainly not a reason for me to walk away from FF. .

When it was discovered that she was claiming the independent allowance, Brian Cowen stopped it immediately.



I have no problem with this at all. . . Post a general election it is the duty of all elected TD's to try to form a government . . . The way the numbers have fallen in Ireland this almost always requires the support of independents. If making an arrangement with Michael Lowry enables FF to form a government and agree an effective programme for government, then they have a duty to make such an arrangement.

I have a big problem with this. To stop corrupt people from holding office, it should be law that anybody found guilty of corruption be banned from serving in office. Anybody under serious investigation - i.e Bertie - should be suspended from office. The definition of "serious" would need to be clearly defined to eliminate ambiguity. Would FF introduce such a law?.....not a hope. They are in power for the majority of our independence, so what is their excuse? The fact that corrupt individuals such as Lowry et al are even elected shows how some of the electorate think.

You mention that Bev being invited back to the party - despite her character and integrity etc - is not enough for you to leave FF, what is enough? What would make you see the light?

rcecil

is for Sinn Fein to have enough seats to keep the corporate parties on their toes.

Laminations

anymore wrote: »

It might be appropriate to point out at this stage, that ethical standards in Dail Eireann and the penalities for breaches of these standards should not have to depend on convictions in court. In a lot of cases breaches of ethical standards will not be in themselves breaches of any of our laws.

Spot on. There needs to be a distinction between ethically correct and legally correct behaviour for members in public life. I heard Peter Robinson mention the 7 principles of public office on the news when he was trying to justify his return. I'm aware they are for the UK but I think Bertie would fail on every single one. Support for him shows contempt for the idea of standards in public office

anymore

Laminations wrote: »

Spot on. There needs to be a distinction between ethically correct and legally correct behaviour for members in public life. I heard Peter Robinson mention the 7 principles of public office on the news when he was trying to justify his return. I'm aware they are for the UK but I think Bertie would fail on every single one. Support for him shows contempt for the idea of standards in public office

Thanks for that link !

"Leadership
Holders of public office should promote and support these principles by leadership and example."
Who would argue that Bertie Ahern has done this ?