Manny Pacquiao: The Most Overrated Fighter of All Time

richierichballs

All hail King Pacquiao, the most carefully managed, over hyped boxer in the history of the sport.

A careful process of Bob Arum match making him against the most beatable opponents possible, to try and convince fight fans that this isn't the same guy who lost 10 out of 12 rounds with Marquez, before running away, and ducking a third bout.

Let's go through the legends career, honestly, and based on fact.

His "dominance" at the small weights was little more than being destroyed by Medgoen Singsurat, before ducking his contracted re-match, and running away.

He then got the most corrupt "Arum" decision in boxing history, with a gift of a draw against Sanchez. A matter of months before Arum was investigated by the FBI for fixing fights.

Did he re-match his lucky decision. Like Mayweather and Castillo? No, the "warrior" ran away again!

He then made his name in against a shop worn Barrera, before he got another ridiculous "Arum" decision. Getting gifted a draw in a bout most people think he lost by about three rounds. Completely out boxed and outclassed.

He then got completely outclassed again by a shop worn Morales, who was only 70% of his peak skills. Being so hopelessly outclassed, that Morales started boxing southpaw for the last three rounds.

So, let's have a look—without dodgy "Arum" decisions, we'd be looking at five losses by now.

His entire career based on lucky decisions it seems.

What happens next can only be described as an Arum lesson in hype building. He'd been hopelessly outclassed in his last few fights, so Arum starts putting him in with shot names.

Morales had already been destroyed by a complete journeyman by the time of the rematch, and was not respected as a genuine elite fighter any more by then. Does Arum go after someone better?

No! He makes the fight anyway. To prove once and for all that Manny is as good a fighter as Zahir Reeham...

Are we thinking about facing young elite super feathers now?

No! Let's face the shot name again!

Right, are we ready to face a young elite super feather yet?

No! Let's get back in with another shot name in Barrera. A guy we beat easily years ago!

So Arum has done a nice job rebuilding an exposed fighter, by putting him in with a series of shot names, who were way past their best.

And then he finally goes in with another elite, peak pfp opponent, and he gets schooled again! Losing nearly every round. Surely, this has finally shown that he's not half the fighter Arum has tried to project, and Marquez will get his deserved UD.

No! Another "Arum" decisions saves him. Does the "warrior" rematch the close decision. No, he runs away again. Just like with all his losses, and close decisions.

So again, we are in a position where the world realises that Pacquiao as a fighter is maybe two-percent better than Juan Marquez.

So Arum builds the hype again, by hand picking a load of idiot-proof opponents, who won't expose any of Manny's many weaknesses.

David Diaz. Hands down the worst lightweight champion I have ever seen. Did Manny go for Casamayor, or Juan Diaz. No, he picks the chump. The easiest fight there. Anyone remember Mayweather picking the HARDEST lightweight fight available when he made the same move!? And then rematching him when he got a close decision.

Manny picking the easiest. And throughout his career continually running away from close fights.

What now? We can't accuse Mayweather of taking easy "name fights" when he became "the man", and face Oscar as well can we?

Hell yeah!

The guys shot, old, and nearly lost to Steve Forbes at 150 as the weight drop was too much. So you'd think Manny would grow a set and fight him at at least 150, to make a fight of it.

No, let's make a shot 36 year-old fighter, who can't even make 150, boil down to 147. And then make him agree to not come in over 147, so he isn't too heavy.

Oscar's usual in right weight at welter—165.

What "the warrior" asked him to come in at 147

So you've faced one bum, and one shot name. Surely an elite, peaked, tough guy now!

No, Ricky Hatton. The same "cherry picked" opponent that you accuse Mayweather of taking. Not only that, but he's completely shot by then! At least he was peak versus Mayweather.

Hatton here is shot, exposed, and most of the media wanted him to retire after nearly getting knocked out by journeyman Juan Lazcano.

That's a great opponent when your trying to rebuild an exposed fighters reputation!

Shane Mosely, the Divisional No. 1 calls you out, and says he will fight you at only 20% of the purse split. A record purse.

Roach doesn't want it though as he wants "guys who come to fight". Translated, a fighter who won't expose Pacquiao again likle Marquez. So takes an exposed Divisional No. 3 in Cotto, for half of the purse.

Turns down one of the only true superfights in boxing, for an exposed Cotto, who struggled to even beat bum of the week Clottey.

All because he wanted a guy to continue the hype. And further rebuild the exposed Pacquiaos image with yet another hand picked brawler.

Then he gets a shot to finally take on another elite, peak, slick fighter. And runs away from $40 million on the basis that he would do a test 24 days before, but not 14 days.

Runs away over 10 days! Top Rank spin it as " Filipino pride". I think Barry Bonds probably suffers from that as well...

Who's the opponent? Tim Bradley, the divisional No. 2 at the weight you are ring champion? Maybe wait for Mosely, or take on Paul Williams?

No. As they can all duck, and have the skills to do exactly the same as Marquez did. So lets hand pick another idiot-proof brawler to build some more hype.

Manny has only ever faced four peak, elite opponents in his entire career.

Barrer-One.

Moralez-One.

Marquez-One and Two.

Cotto.

He beat Barrera. Got schooled by Morales and Marquez. Struggled to a win over Cotto.

Let's be totally totally honest. Much of the "legend" is simply a PFP level fighter taking on either shot "names" or hand picked stooges, that offer none of the skills to trouble Pacquiao.

Anyone who can duck, slip, counter, move carefully sidestepped. Roach telling the world he "wants guys who come to fight".

Translated. I want a guy to just stand there, and let my guy swarm all around him for 12 rounds.

Popular fighters are hard to discuss. As 90% of the discussion is made by his fans. Kind of like trying to convince Backstreet Boys fans that Nick really isn't that musically talented.

But let's be honest. Manny's actual place in history (history will surely show this) is a plucky little fighter, who came up short against the real peak HOF fighters, and had a bit of joy against some shot names, and hand picked brawlers.

Don't expect him to ever go in with a skilled fighter again. Mosely, Marquez, Mayweather will all be side stepped. With Roach running his mouth, claiming they are all ducking him, no matter how much they run their mouth.

I'm sure he will have a case of the "I'm superstitious about needles/ring size/glove size" or anything they demand. Anything to be able to run away without being labelled a ducker.

PS. The girls in the back will be facing a slick, skilled fighter before Pacquiao does.

joepenguin

richierichballs wrote: »

All hail King Pacquiao, the most carefully managed, over hyped boxer in the history of the sport.


Did he re-match his lucky decision. Like Mayweather and Castillo? No, the "warrior" ran away again!


So Arum has done a nice job rebuilding an exposed fighter, by putting him in with a series of shot names, who were way past their best.

And then he finally goes in with another elite, peak pfp opponent, and he gets schooled again! Losing nearly every round. Surely, this has finally shown that he's not half the fighter Arum has tried to project, and Marquez will get his deserved UD.

No! Another "Arum" decisions saves him. Does the "warrior" rematch the close decision. No, he runs away again. Just like with all his losses, and close decisions.

So again, we are in a position where the world realises that Pacquiao as a fighter is maybe two-percent better than Juan Marquez.

So Arum builds the hype again, by hand picking a load of idiot-proof opponents, who won't expose any of Manny's many weaknesses.

Did Manny go for Casamayor, or Juan Diaz. No, he picks the chump. The easiest fight there. Anyone remember Mayweather picking the HARDEST lightweight fight available when he made the same move!? And then rematching him when he got a close decision.

Manny picking the easiest. And throughout his career continually running away from close fights.

What now? We can't accuse Mayweather of taking easy "name fights" when he became "the man", and face Oscar as well can we?.

Oscar's usual in right weight at welter—165.

What "the warrior" asked him to come in at 147

No, Ricky Hatton. The same "cherry picked" opponent that you accuse Mayweather of taking. Not only that, but he's completely shot by then! At least he was peak versus Mayweather.


Turns down one of the only true superfights in boxing, for an exposed Cotto, who struggled to even beat bum of the week Clottey.


Then he gets a shot to finally take on another elite, peak, slick fighter. And runs away from $40 million on the basis that he would do a test 24 days before, but not 14 days.

Runs away over 10 days! Top Rank spin it as " Filipino pride". I think Barry Bonds probably suffers from that as well...


Translated. I want a guy to just stand there, and let my guy swarm all around him for 12 rounds.




Don't expect him to ever go in with a skilled fighter again. Mosely, Marquez, Mayweather will all be side stepped.

I cant really comment on his fights before the last Barerra fight and the only gripe I have with pac-jmm II was that I scored it as a draw, maybe slightly favouring Marquez but it was no robbery.

Diaz was a step up in weight and he battered him! As you said the weakest champ at the time but he held the wbc belt so not a bad opponent for the first time in the weight class. I give Marquez way more credit for going after Casamayor but as he was coming off a loss he wasnt in a position to pick and choose. Plus Casa was after getting a gift decision himself.

Then on to Oscar. You say he should have grew a pair and fought him at 150. Why? Oscar called him out at that weight and was bringing him up to welter even though he had one fight at lightweight. This was Ballsy on Pacs part, even though De La Hoya was past it the size difference was massive.

The on to Hatton, who lost to Mayweather, beat Lazcano but looked shaky, then convinvingly beat Mallignaggi. Hatton was unbeaten at 140 and 30 years old at the time. So what if he lost to Mayweather, who hasnt (that fought him) Hatton went up in weight to fight Mayweather, Manny was still untested against a leak fighter at 140 and considered the smaller man.

Cotto: one of the top welters and not a guy to be taken lightly by anyone. ok the fight was at 145 which tarnished it a bit but he totally outboxed him.

Clottey: Not a guy you choose to fight if you want to look sensational.

I dont think Manny is over rated but as you said he is managed very well and has fought opponents who will stand there in front of him but lets all be honest, who thought DLH, Hatton and Cotto would destroy him with one punch should the chance present itself.

As for his 4 lineal titles can anyone shed any light on those as to whether or not they were clear wins?

I would love to have seen Marquez get another go at Pacquiao.
Did anything come of the FBI investigation?
Clottey = bum of the month

If Manny beats Clottey then he will either fight Mayweather, or Mosely after he beats Mayweather twice, or at least thats the way I look at it. Gives Mosely time to build his name in the mainstream. Pacquiao would have no prob taking on Mosely, Mayweather or Marquez at 147.

Big Ears

richierichballs wrote: »

He then made his name in against a shop worn Barrera

Barrera beat Erik Morales, Johnny Tapia and Kevin kelley in his 3 fights before Pacquiao and he beat Paulie Ayala, Erik Morales and Mzoke Fana in his 3 fights afterwards.

To call him shop worn during that time period is so ridiculous it borders on flamebaiting and it seems the piece(which isn't worth my time reading in full from the bits I've looked at) is full of statements that are made either out of blind hatred or are attempts to wind other posters up.

Tread carefully.........

cowzerp

Overrated? No, get a grip man.

magma69

walshb

Although I disagree with the poster; why is he a troll?:rolleyes:

He makes points that I think are a bit off, but he obviously doesn't rate
Pacman highly and thinks that he is overrated by others.

This Troll label is bandied about too easily in my opinion

T-K-O

There is only one valid point, the rest is nonsense.

magma69

walshb wrote: »

Although I disagree with the poster; why is he a troll?:rolleyes:

He makes points that I think are a bit off, but he obviously doesn't rate
Pacman highly and thinks that he is overrated by others.

This Troll label is bandied about too easily in my opinion

The title (with a big smile next to it) was a bit of a give away tbh. Plus all the ridiculous bulll**** he posted. He couldn't honestly believe Barrera was shot when he fought Pac. It was one of the biggest upsets of the decade. Nobody gave Pac a chance. The thread reeks of troll and I ain't biting.

Daroxtar

Oh forfuksake

joepenguin

walshb wrote: »

He makes points that I think are a bit off, but he obviously doesn't rate
Pacman highly and thinks that he is overrated by others.

+1

Rich brought up some points that people simply overlook about pacman. He is one of the best fighters of our generation and when you take into account the amount of people who lace up gloves that is some achievment.

He has however been very carefully managed and promoted like Mayweather, although I believe Pac took the greater risks in the last few years.

We criticise all out favourite boxers: Dunne, Duddy, Kahn, Haye, Hatton etc. but when someone is on a roll like Pac or Macklin we easliy get caught up in the hype and label those who post negative things about them as trolls.

The Davestator

Lads - just because you dont agree with a poster, it doesnt make his opinion wrong, and it certainly doesn't make him a troll!

There's certainly a few questionable comments in the OP, but MP went down a lot in my estimation for refusing to agree to testing to fight Mayweather

joepenguin

The Davestator wrote: »

There's certainly a few questionable comments in the OP, but MP went down a lot in my estimation for refusing to agree to testing to fight Mayweather

I reckon its all part of the hype. If the fight doesnt come off and pac refuses in future to comply with drug tests then his rep will take a knock. If a fighter is clean then they should be willing to undergo any test.

siochain

suppose sure everyone is entitled to a say, and I say Pacquiao is a legend and I have massive respect for him as a fighter and a man due to his humble nature and not giving in FMJ's demands and walking away when the tried to slur his name.

But I hope the do get it on some day and I hope he gives floyd a lesson in heart and boxing.

Wild_Dogger

Yes ,.... and hopefully Mayweather's purse will just cover his slander case . just kiddin'

foams

The Boxing Writers Association of America dont think he's over-rated ,
he's been voted fighter of the year and decade.
http://bwaa.org/

nacho libre

the only criticism i'd have of Pacman is that he is likely on something to help him operate at the higher weights. i didn't want to believe this but this business with Mayweather doesn't do anything to douse the flames of suspicion

however, that said even if Pacman is taking something, you can't cheat your way to the skills he has. his handspeed and footwork are a joy to watch.

richierichballs

nacho libre wrote: »

the only criticism i'd have of Pacman is that he is likely on something to help him operate at the higher weights. i didn't want to believe this but this business with Mayweather doesn't do anything to douse the flames of suspicion

however, that said even if Pacman is taking something, you can't cheat your way to the skills he has. his handspeed and footwork are a joy to watch.

No doubt he is on something, okay it is not going to give you skill but it will increase your work rate making you work harder therefore making you develop better,
Manny is over rated, the only reason he was voted number one by that Writers association is because most boxing writers are on his nutts,
some even claim he is better then Ali and Robinson?

He is a good fighter, Not Great and Highly over rated

T-K-O

This board never fails....

Have a little look at this

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?cat=boxer&human_id=6129


Carefully managed MY ARSE.


The only valid point the duche makes is Dela. With HINDSIGHT the weight was only going to kill Oscar especially at that age. Fair play to Mannys time for knowing this. Hatton was still the man at 140 when Manny was the ring with him. Cotto was the PROVEN best at 147 and got destroyed over 12 rounds. His next fight Josh Clottey is one tough SOB that most guys avoid. I could go on about his career from 125-130 but whats the point.

grezz

he fights chumps, he knew he couldn't beat mayweather so he bottled it!!

T-K-O

grezz wrote: »

he fights chumps, he knew he couldn't beat mayweather so he bottled it!!

Bernard Dunne isnt fighting these days, go away.

strobe

T-K-O wrote: »

This board never fails....

Have a little look at this

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?cat=boxer&human_id=6129

Sometimes it's best to just shake your head in bewilderment and walk straight past these threads TKO.

I say only half in jest that Pacquiao could destroy Clottey, then agree to Mayweathers drug testing and school him over 8 or 9 rounds and people like Richierichballs would still slate him and say Mayweather was the far superior fighter. I think it's part misplaced aggression aimed at Manny for the things some of his fans, not him himself, say against PBF. The less said about blow in, first time posters like grezz the better. Although I don't agree with alot of what HOC says at least he tries to put forward a coherent argument, instead of just that Manny Pacquiao fought fighters everyone agrees are chumps. I mean Morrales, Barrera, La Hoya, Hatton, Cotto, Marquez, what have any of these fighters accomplished in their careers? Chumps the lot of them.

eagle eye

I never read anything as ridiculous as the opening post in this thread.

candlegrease

Struggled to a win over Cotto? He destroyed him

Dr. Greenthumb

nacho libre wrote: »

the only criticism i'd have of Pacman is that he is likely on something to help him operate at the higher weights. i didn't want to believe this but this business with Mayweather doesn't do anything to douse the flames of suspicion

however, that said even if Pacman is taking something, you can't cheat your way to the skills he has. his handspeed and footwork are a joy to watch.

i don't think he is on anything and what happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Pacman was constantly struggling to make the lightweight limit in his latter days in that division and in his last 5 fights he was weighing in 5 - 8lbs heavier on fight night than on the weigh in. People seem to accept that Oscar wasn't up to full strength when he dropped down weight classes but with Pacman it must be drugs. There is double standards here. If he is now fighting at a comfortable weight that would mean he has his natural power and is able to train at full tilt without having to starve himself to make weights.

If PBF beats Mosley is he entitled to be thought of as the p4p king? Maybe if he fought him 5 years ago but now? If PBF goes on to fight and beat Cotto can he not be considered beating a fighter on the way down as you've compared Pacs fight over Hatton? The OP is clearly biased towards PBF and doesn't like anyone taking the limelight. I'm not favouring either fighter and enjoy watching both but on what basis would PBF deserve this award?

nacho libre

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

i don't think he is on anything and what happened to innocent until proven guilty?

it's still there, but if he has nothing to hide why not take the blood test Mayweather asked for? His advisors came out with lame excuses as to why he couldn't. so you can't blame people for being suspicious given the scourge of doping in other sports. Also, bear in mind that one of the former leading facilitators of cheating in sport, Conte, has slammed boxing drug's testing as inadequate. I'd love if he was clean but i'm just saying you can't blame people for having doubts given what has gone on in other sports and factoring in human nature.

kevinhug

lmao what a post!

Barrera; only stopped by Kahn, never took a beating like MP gave him
Morales; only stopped by MP Twice
Hatton; only stopped by MP and MayW
Marquez; never stopped and I dont remember MayW putting him on his ass as good as MP did, even when he could well have been pasted his best. Has anyone else floored him?

Clottley; never been stopped and schooled Cotto, hardly an easy fight.

It's easy to go through someones career and call everyone of them bums, but it is hard to do it against MP, as most of his opponents will go down in history as some of the best fighters to ever live.

This is a poor debate, it seems there is a strong chance MP will fight MayW or Mosley, so he hasn't dodged anyone. But sure if he fights them and wins he will still be a bum as MayW and Mosley are over 30 and "way past it" lol

No point in starting a whole drugs debate again, there is no right answer

T-K-O

Yeah Cotto was all over him

http://www.buzzybloggers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/cotto-after-the-fight.jpg



I know I shouldn't but it's difficult not to react to such a thread. As a previous poster has said , you can pick at 95% of fighters CV's.
Manny Pac on the other hand is one of those few guys who has actually fought the best in AND around his division.

consultech

Muhammad Ali is the most over-rated fighter of all time, tbh.

makl

richierichballs wrote: »

No doubt he is on something, okay it is not going to give you skill but it will increase your work rate making you work harder therefore making you develop better,
Manny is over rated, the only reason he was voted number one by that Writers association is because most boxing writers are on his nutts,
some even claim he is better then Ali and Robinson?

He is a good fighter, Not Great and Highly over rated

if he beat pbf would u change your view?

richierichballs

makl wrote: »

if he beat pbf would u change your view?

Course I would, Anyone who beats Floyd gets my credit,
I still think he would be over rated, People say he is better then Ali,
Its BS, I'm sick of all the band wagoners who have all of a sudden jumped on this Manny Pacquiao Hype train, Notice how he changed so much from the Marquez fight to the Diaz fight?
He is on something I don't care what people think, they can sugar coat it or try deny it all they want, they are blind the writing is on the wall, it couldn't be any clearer, I hope he isn't but until the Day he mans up and takes the tests and fights Floyd I will always have doubts over his career, especially after second Marquez fight

kryogen

the OP knows his stuff.............when it comes to copy and pasting anyway!

thats about it though, ridiculous article, where did it come from OP?

cowzerp

consultech wrote: »

Muhammad Ali is the most over-rated fighter of all time, tbh.

He beat, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton, Leon Spinks, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson and more decent opposition not even mentioned and beat 3 of the 5 opponents who he lost too in the rematch, The only 2 he did not rematch and beat where Berbick and Holmes in his last 2 fights when he was suffering from Alzheimers and finished in a boxing sense..

He is the greatest and saying he is overrated is madness!!!

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

He beat, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton, Leon Spinks, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson and more decent opposition not even mentioned and beat 3 of the 5 opponents who he lost too in the rematch, The only 2 he did not rematch and beat where Berbick and Holmes in his last 2 fights when he was suffering from Alzheimers and finished in a boxing sense..

He is the greatest and saying he is overrated is madness!!!

Paul, Parkinsons. Don't let Ali hear you mix them up;)
The greatest p4p, not only heavyweight, IMO.

kevinhug

cowzerp wrote: »

He beat, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton, Leon Spinks, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson and more decent opposition not even mentioned and beat 3 of the 5 opponents who he lost too in the rematch, The only 2 he did not rematch and beat where Berbick and Holmes in his last 2 fights when he was suffering from Alzheimers and finished in a boxing sense..

He is the greatest and saying he is overrated is madness!!!

I think he was being sarcastic? lol

cowzerp

kevinhug wrote: »

I think he was being sarcastic? lol

He was'nt or if he was he used no exclamation marks, no funny comment or nothing to make me believe he was..

LOL!

Big Ears

cowzerp wrote: »

He beat, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton, Leon Spinks, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson and more decent opposition not even mentioned and beat 3 of the 5 opponents who he lost too in the rematch, The only 2 he did not rematch and beat where Berbick and Holmes in his last 2 fights when he was suffering from Alzheimers and finished in a boxing sense..

He is the greatest and saying he is overrated is madness!!!

Most felt Norton beat him in two of their 3 fights, and Ali was very lucky not to be 1-2 against Joe Frazier as he was ready to quit on his stool before the final round in Manilla as Frazier's corner pulled him out.
Had those results gone the other way history would look at him very differently.
Not to try and bring Ali down, but I'm just pointing out how any man's record can be scrutinised no matter how good.
You could also add things in like how an average fighter in Cooper floored him and had him out on his feet.


My only problem with some people in how they view Ali is that he's put on a pedestal and not treated like other boxers, where you can't criticise him in the same way. Many ignore the fact that a lot of the time he wasn't so glamorous 'floating like a butterfly and stinging like a bee', he spoiled a lot and held other fighters behind the head with one hand for most of his career.
Despite his elusive defence, his low hands meant he ate more left hooks in his career than needed to, hence the Banks, Cooper and Frazier knockdowns.


If people are going to criticise Pacquiao for something other than their beliefs he's on drugs, then they should apply the same criticisms to Muhammed Ali, Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Leonard, Floyd Mayweather, Sugar Ray Robinson and even Jim Rock. Standards should be kept the same for everyone and not let people away with something because they're constantly referred to as 'The Greatest' etc

From that point of view I think Ali is one of the most overrated fighters ever.
Not because he wasn't great, he was. He's one of the greatest fighters and Heavyweights ever and I've no problem with people who call him the greatest Heavyweight ever even if I'm not sure myself. But the fact he's almost untouchable in terms of criticism and that many won't even think or allow themselves to look at his weaknesses mean he's overrated. The fact that many people just regard him as the greatest fighter ever without allowing any question of it means he's overrated to some degree, even as amazing as he was.


Pacquiao's record is amazing aswell, and up there with pretty much anyone.
Beating Clottey will be a good addition to it too.

Mayweather has beaten Sharmba Mitchell, Zab Judah, Carlos Baldomir, Ricky Hatton and Juan Manuel Marquez at Welterweight.

Pacquiao has beaten De La Hoya, Miguel Cotto and now has the opportunity to beat Joshua Clottey. Now De La Hoya was drained so you can scratch that if you wish but Cotto and Clottey are better Welterweights than all of the guys on Floyd's list.

Question if the guy is on drugs if you wish, but the guys record is amazing imo, the same way Ray Leonard's is, the same way Ali's is and the same way Louis' is. Jim Rock.........well Jim may need a few more big wins to get to that level but who knows

consultech

^^^ +1

Cowzerp, Walshbb - You're both learned enough to know the points Im gonna make in criticism of Ali (pretty much as above), so I wont bother wasting our time.

Joe Musashi

kryogen wrote: »

the OP knows his stuff.............when it comes to copy and pasting anyway!

thats about it though, ridiculous article, where did it come from OP?

I googled a piece of it and it comes from bleacherreport. :rolleyes:

http://bleacherreport.com/users/120094-lord-hughey-windsor-sanchez

bamboozler

Big Ears wrote: »

Most felt Norton beat him in two of their 3 fights, and Ali was very lucky not to be 1-2 against Joe Frazier as he was ready to quit on his stool before the final round in Manilla as Frazier's corner pulled him out.
Had those results gone the other way history would look at him very differently.
Not to try and bring Ali down, but I'm just pointing out how any man's record can be scrutinised no matter how good.
You could also add things in like how an average fighter in Cooper floored him and had him out on his feet.


My only problem with some people in how they view Ali is that he's put on a pedestal and not treated like other boxers, where you can't criticise him in the same way. Many ignore the fact that a lot of the time he wasn't so glamorous 'floating like a butterfly and stinging like a bee', he spoiled a lot and held other fighters behind the head with one hand for most of his career.
Despite his elusive defence, his low hands meant he ate more left hooks in his career than needed to, hence the Banks, Cooper and Frazier knockdowns.


If people are going to criticise Pacquiao for something other than their beliefs he's on drugs, then they should apply the same criticisms to Muhammed Ali, Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Leonard, Floyd Mayweather, Sugar Ray Robinson and even Jim Rock. Standards should be kept the same for everyone and not let people away with something because they're constantly referred to as 'The Greatest' etc

From that point of view I think Ali is one of the most overrated fighters ever.
Not because he wasn't great, he was. He's one of the greatest fighters and Heavyweights ever and I've no problem with people who call him the greatest Heavyweight ever even if I'm not sure myself. But the fact he's almost untouchable in terms of criticism and that many won't even think or allow themselves to look at his weaknesses mean he's overrated. The fact that many people just regard him as the greatest fighter ever without allowing any question of it means he's overrated to some degree, even as amazing as he was.


Pacquiao's record is amazing aswell, and up there with pretty much anyone.
Beating Clottey will be a good addition to it too.

Mayweather has beaten Sharmba Mitchell, Zab Judah, Carlos Baldomir, Ricky Hatton and Juan Manuel Marquez at Welterweight.

Pacquiao has beaten De La Hoya, Miguel Cotto and now has the opportunity to beat Joshua Clottey. Now De La Hoya was drained so you can scratch that if you wish but Cotto and Clottey are better Welterweights than all of the guys on Floyd's list.

Question if the guy is on drugs if you wish, but the guys record is amazing imo, the same way Ray Leonard's is, the same way Ali's is and the same way Louis' is. Jim Rock.........well Jim may need a few more big wins to get to that level but who knows

i agree you cant seem to question ali without being attacked but i am especially biased cos i hate racists like ali.

but prob was best fighter ever but if you wanted to talk rubbish like the original poster said bout pacman. you could call him a cheat cos of what his corner did against cooper and go even as far to believe foreman very late admittting that he was ?drugged? before the rumble in the jungle, and another bout a deflated glove vs frazier. (by the way i dont actually believe these are ali cheating as glove icident was his corner and others bull like the first post).

i think pacman is a top fighter but would not be suprised bout the drug thing after all jones and mosley were both definitely on drugs so who knows how many top fighters have been

strobe

richierichballs wrote: »

Its BS, I'm sick of all the band wagoners who have all of a sudden jumped on this Manny Pacquiao Hype train, Notice how he changed so much from the Marquez fight to the Diaz fight?

So then you think he was clean for Barrera, Morrales, Marquez ect and started using in between JMMII and Diaz? How much he changed? He went up 5lbs, I don't think I can think of a modern fighter that's struggled to go up 5 lbs. Did he look far better against Diaz than he did against JMM? Yes, but he was fighting Diaz after fighting JMM. Who wouldn't look like a far better fighter?

The bottom line is the greatest improvement he has exhibbited in recent years is how he fights, his tactics and how he approaches fights, his footwork and the fact he doesn't just charge in without thinking about it as he did consistantly in his earlier career. He was always a heavy hitter and his hand speed was always lightning quick, that didn't improve over night, it was always there and it improved gradually over his career as he grew older towards his peak and bigger with age and better training.

The number one proof people point to to suggest he's on something is that he's shot up threw the weights and continued winning, seeming to improve as he went up.

Well heres a fact that can't be disputed: At the age of 16 Pacquiao was weighing in at 106 lbs, by the age of 31 he was fighting and winning at 144. Impressive? Yes. Theres another fighter that was tipping the scales at 106 as a 16 year old kid. He also went up through the weights getting better and better as he went, his power increasing as he moved up and put on the extra muscle without it seeming to affect his speed at all. By the age of 31 he was weighing in at 150 and miraculously seeming perfectly comfortable.

Care to hazzard a guess at the name of the second fighter Richie?

I'm not saying I'm 100% that MP isn't on something, he might be, the way the testing is run in boxing every single fighter around might be on something. I'm just saying there is no more evidence to suggest that Pacquiao is on something than there is for every fighter.

bamboozler

strobe wrote: »

Care to hazzard a guess at the name of the second fighter Richie?

if richie doesnt guess please tell me cos thats annoying one. thought it mite be one of two boxers and both i checked didnt match and seems like should be obvious

digsy32

bamboozler wrote: »

if richie doesnt guess please tell me cos thats annoying one. thought it mite be one of two boxers and both i checked didnt match and seems like should be obvious

That would be Mayweather.

First post is drivel.

bamboozler

digsy32 wrote: »

That would be Mayweather.

First post is drivel.

i thought mayweather and he was one of the two i checked but that would mean he put on 2 stone in 2 years and thought that was maybe bit much for someone so young just going professional

colly10

kryogen wrote: »

thats about it though, ridiculous article, where did it come from OP?

Written by Lord Hughey Windsor-Sanchez (I wouldn't blame him, the chap looks a bit senile). Heres the article -

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/336353-manny-pacquiao-the-most-overrated-fighter-of-all-time

I can't believe that anyone would call the OP a troll for posting "his" opinion (albeit with a big smiley face beside it)

strobe

bamboozler wrote: »

i thought mayweather and he was one of the two i checked but that would mean he put on 2 stone in 2 years and thought that was maybe bit much for someone so young just going professional

One would think so wouldn't they? That seems a huge amount for anyone to put on in two years. The only possible explanation? PED's. Or maybe he ate a sh1t load and trained like a motherfukker. Floyd fought at light feather at 16 years of age. Weighed in at 106. Obviously the only explanation is he was pumping a pharmacy into himself. So in summary, Pac's on HGH, PBF is on steroids, and every other fighter from Lewis to Del ya Hoya are suspect. Either everyone that hasn't given blood samples every four days for two months before every fight is a drug cheat regardless of wether anything was ever presented to show that. Or everyone is innocent until proven guilty. You can't pick and choose individuals. It's either A or B.

pikeman99

Pacquiao is an unbelievable fighter. He has own titles in 8 weight classes. The Marquez fights were all close but I wouldn't go as far to say that Marquez was robbed. Cotto was a tough oponent for pacman and he destroyed him. Pacquiao agreed to Mayweathers blood and urine testing the second time round and he also agreed to a smaller purse but still mayweather refused to fight him. Pacquiao was robbed by the decision in the first bradley fight but went on to beat him clearly. Mayweather was ducking pacquiao. Pacquiao wanted the fight, he has never ducked anyone and has always fought the best fighter available to him. He was very unlucky to be ko'd by Marquez the fourth time round, pacman had busted up jmms nose and had hit him with some hard punches, pacman was very sloppy to go in at Marquez the way he did. Mosley was beaten easily by pacman, mosley didn't knock pacman down he pushed him.
So pacquiao was injured during training before the mayweather fight but thought it was only small and that it had gone away but he reinjured it in the fourth round. It may have looked to many that mayweather won the fight easily and that he landed more punches but the compubox stats have been proven wrong. After close examination of the fight it has been proven that the fight was a lot closer than it may have seemed to many. Some big boxing names and some other celebrities have contradicted the decision claiming they thought pacquiao won the fight, mosley, Holyfield, many more. I thought pacman had done enough to win the fight too. Mayweather didn't do much.
Read up on the new punch stats and they will reveal that the fight should have been scored a lot closer maybe even to pacman.

Talib Fiasco

^Manny is that you?