Whats the beef with 7/8 string guitars?

Zombienosh

Hey

Just following on from a thread in bands about 5/6 string basses and someones gripe with them.

I noticed a lot of people being really against 7/8 string guitars and it really annoys me..
why are people so against that extra string.?
I myself play a 7-string.. Only got into more strings about a year ago, til then i myself was put of them, what did i need that extra string for?
I Finally sat down one day and tried a few seven strings.. sure im tuned that low anyway on a 6 string... lets see what all the fuss is..

Since then ive been looking at the 8string ibanez rg2228. and its probly only a matter of time.

To me it just opens more options. I'm a pretty unorthodox guitarist. anytime i mention i play a 7 string to people or talk about a 8 string i get an "ah jaysus...." response.

what do you people think?

EDIT. ill add a poll... bass players can substitute 6 for 4 and 7+ for 5+

68 lost souls

Never fancied a 7 string myself but an 8 string is very tempting, dunno why I just want one. Same goes for bass, never wanted a 5 string but Ive been GASing after a 6 string for a while.

ball ox

I have to admit I'm one of those people who think "Ah Jaysus". I've never really thought about it before but it's probably down to stereotyping. I associate 7 string guitars with music that I do not like. As a result I tend to assume that anyone with a 7 string has bought it specifically to play Korn or Trivium and that kind of stuff. I'm more of a melodic type of musician so to me this music is pointless along with the 7 string guitar.
The only other kind of musician I would associate the 7 string with would be those kind of virtuoso guys that you see on youtube playing incredibly tricky experimental stuff. Again, I can't stand this type of music so it puts me off.
I'm sure there are plenty of other types of musicians out there using 7 strings and I'm just not familiar with them and thats just down to my own ignorance.
I would imagine many people are in the same boat as me with regards having these preconceptions.
I would make the same assumptions about someone who owns a BC rich.
I'm not saying it's right but it is how it is.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Im a 6 stringer, as i have never needed the extra range. however, if i needed the extra range i would consider one. But seeing as i play indie-rock, i doubt il ever get one!

i57dwun4yb1pt8

its like drummers

any time you see a drummer with more than one splash cymbal - back away slowly

:D

rcaz

I don't have any need for the extra range. There are enough unexplored sounds available with a one-string guitar and a good pedalboard. I play with 5 and 6 strings, and if I want to go higher or lower, I've got a Whammy pedal for that. I know it's not the same, but it sounds cool and I like it.

I know a guy who had been playing 4 string bass for a few months and went and bought a 6 string. Why bother when you can barely play 4? I won't see any need to put another string on my guitar until I've exhausted the possibilities of 6 strings, and I don't see that ever happening!

Karl Hungus

Guitarists especially can be very traditional. I find often enough that people sneer at the mention of a guitar that isn't a Strat or Les Paul.

-=al=-

wudnt mind givin em a whirl, very few lefties only one i know is schecter and its not particularly apealing to me, 8 is mad

Seziertisch

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Guitarists especially can be very traditional. I find often enough that people sneer at the mention of a guitar that isn't a Strat or Les Paul.

That's because many of them are designed specifically with the kind of instrumental guitar music in mind that only appeals to other guitarists specifically into that kind of music.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

That's because many of them are designed specifically with the kind of instrumental guitar music in mind that only appeals to other guitarists specifically into that kind of music.

Even so, there are thousands of guitars available other than the strat and LP, many of which do a lot of things a lot better.

Zombienosh

Like someone said above, i get the "ah jaysus" what are ya playing Korn? all the time.

People do stereotype 7/8 strings with nu-metal or something..

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Even so, there are thousands of guitars available other than the strat and LP, many of which do a lot of things a lot better.

Except for sounding like a Strat or a Les Paul. The real strength of those instruments is their flexibility, you just have to look at the number of bands in different genres using them.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

Except for sounding like a Strat or a Les Paul. The real strength of those instruments is their flexibility, you just have to look at the number of bands in different genres using them.

How many of those bands have really explored the other possibilities though?

Seziertisch

AlcoholicA wrote: »

Like someone said above, i get the "ah jaysus" what are ya playing Korn? all the time.

People do stereotype 7/8 strings with nu-metal or something..

At least Korn have non-guitarist fans, I don't know if the same thing can be said of Steve Vai.

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

How many of those bands have really explored the other possibilities though?

I can't imagine making a Jaguar work for hard rock/metal, but I can imagine a Les Paul or Strat being up to it. No doubt a Jaguar excels at being a Jaguar, and if you want that specific sound a Les Paul or Strat won't get you there. Similarly for some (other) genres it would be woefully unsuited whereas a Strat or Les Paul could be made to work.

ball ox

Seziertisch wrote: »

I don't know if the same thing can be said of Steve Vai.

Probably not, but in fairness, when you look at one of these things
it doesn't inspire much confidence either
I'd take a 7 string over that!

Seziertisch

ball ox wrote: »

Probably not, but in fairness, when you look at one of these things
it doesn't inspire much confidence either
I'd take a 7 string over that!

Steve Vai is the father of the 7-string in rock music.

ball ox

So your saying they have those things with 7 strings on them? Jesus, that's pretty niche! I'm sure they sell though.

partyatmygaff

Never a 7 or 8 string. Oddly enough I wouldn't mind a 12 string guitar, that shimmering tone can sound great at times.

Seziertisch

Ironically, it was Korn that brought the 7-string back from the dead in the mid-nineties. The Ibanez 7-strings had gone out of production, but when Korn became big they brought them back to meet the demand from players. I would say that if it wasn't for nu-metal there wouldn't be affordable 7-string guitars out there for guys that look down their noses at nu-metal and who are into niche virtuoso guitar music. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibanez_Universe

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

Similarly for some (other) genres it would be woefully unsuited whereas a Strat or Les Paul could be made to work.

I don't get why a Jaguar couldn't be made to work either. A guitar with two pickups and a hardtail is hardly very flexible, it's just taken for granted that the Les Paul is the 'best' or whatever.

And at the mention of Jaguars, we're still only talking about Gibson Fender and Ibanez here. What about the thousands of other guitar makers making original designs that never even get a look in?

rcaz

partyatmygaff2 wrote: »

Never a 7 or 8 string. Oddly enough I wouldn't mind a 12 string guitar, that shimmering tone can sound great at times.

I don't think that really counts, those strings are (usually) just doubling pitches that are normally on a 6 string.

Karl Hungus

Seziertisch wrote: »

That's because many of them are designed specifically with the kind of instrumental guitar music in mind that only appeals to other guitarists specifically into that kind of music.

I do wonder how much of that is informed preference of having played other brands and choosing strat/les paul over them, rather than the attraction of the big name brand and choosing a strat/les paul because of that. I've known a lot of people who've bought Marshalls simply because of the name, and often sneer at the suggestion of other amp manufacturers without ever having played or even heard one.

Seziertisch

Karl Hungus wrote: »

I do wonder how much of that is informed preference of having played other brands and choosing strat/les paul over them, rather than the attraction of the big name brand and choosing a strat/les paul because of that. I've known a lot of people who've bought Marshalls simply because of the name, and often sneer at the suggestion of other amp manufacturers without ever having played or even heard one.

Well, (as far as I know) all 7-string guitars come with really high output pickups, which make them completely unsuitable for many genres. There are no pickups which aim for a reproduction of vintage PAF or P-90 tone or whatever in 7-string format.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

Well, (as far as I know) all 7-string guitars come with really high output pickups, which make them completely unsuitable for many genres. There are no pickups which aim for a reproduction of vintage PAF or P-90 tone or whatever in 7-string format.

Don't think Karl was talking about 7 strings there.

Karl Hungus

Seziertisch wrote: »

Ironically, it was Korn that brought the 7-string back from the dead in the mid-nineties. The Ibanez 7-strings had gone out of production, but when Korn became big they brought them back to meet the demand from players. I would say that if it wasn't for nu-metal there wouldn't be affordable 7-string guitars out there for guys that look down their noses at nu-metal and who are into niche virtuoso guitar music. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibanez_Universe

It was actually quite a lot of bands that sparked the renewed interest in the 7 string during the mid 90's, not just Korn. Fear Factory, Morbid Angel and Dream Theater also played a significant part in, and it wasn't merely nu-metal either, as there were certainly a lot of Death Metal bands taking their queue from Morbid Angel.

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

I don't get why a Jaguar couldn't be made to work either. A guitar with two pickups and a hardtail is hardly very flexible, it's just taken for granted that the Les Paul is the 'best' or whatever.

And at the mention of Jaguars, we're still only talking about Gibson Fender and Ibanez here. What about the thousands of other guitar makers making original designs that never even get a look in?

Nothing sounds like a Les Paul, it is one of the sounds of rock music. It excels at riffs and for soloing. From Jimmy Page to Joey Santiago, from Slash to Steve Malkmus, from Neil Young to punk, it does what it does better than anything else out there. It has a unique personality, and is great in its limitedness. The problem with the vast majority of newer designs is that A. they are not particularly attractive (most classic guitar shapes were designed by professional designers and as such are works of art in their form) and B. they try to do too much (I know a number of PRS owners who have slowly gravitated back to "more limited" Strats and Les Pauls because they think these guitars do what they do better)

As for the Jaguar (and the Jazzmaster), the reason that Johnny Marr plays them almost exclusively in Modest Mouse is that they are in his opinion unsuited to playing blues licks and thus take his playing in another direction. Again, two guitar designs with great personality, not trying to be everything to everyone, but rather excelling at being themselves.

That said, the same is true of 7/8-string instruments, though they are probably even more specific than any of the above. Les Paul (a jazz musician) designed the Les Paul and it went on to become a hard/indie/alternative rock staple. Steve Vai designed the 7-string and it went on to become a nu-metal/metal staple. As such it doesn't seem to have the same crossover appeal.

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Don't think Karl was talking about 7 strings there.

Looking at the title of the thread and the post of mine that he replied to, I kind of presumed he was.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

Nothing sounds like a Les Paul, it is one of the sounds of rock music. It excels at riffs and for soloing. From Jimmy Page to Joey Santiago, from Slash to Steve Malkmus, from Neil Young to punk, it does what it does better than anything else out there. It has a unique personality, and is great in its limitedness. The problem with the vast majority of newer designs is that A. they are not particularly attractive (most classic guitar shapes were designed by professional designers and as such are works of art in their form) and B. they try to do too much (I know a number of PRS owners who have slowly gravitated back to "more limited" Strats and Les Pauls because they think these guitars do what they do better)

As for the Jaguar (and the Jazzmaster), the reason that Johnny Marr plays them almost exclusively in Modest Mouse is that they are in his opinion unsuited to playing blues licks and thus take his playing in another direction. Again, two guitar designs with great personality, not trying to be everything to everyone, but rather excelling at being themselves.

But then you look at the Jag and JM, and they're used for surf, noise, jazz, punk, rock, country. Solos and rhythm, heavily effected and clean, etc. Joe Pass, Nels Cline, Thurston Moore, Lee Ranaldo, Ronald Jones, Steven Drozd, Tom Verlaine, Thom Yorke, Jeff Tweedy, etc etc. When I think Les Paul, I think country jazz and metal, but mostly I think rawk.

I don't understand how you can go from saying how flexible to saying how limited they are while still supporting the same argument.

Seziertisch

Karl Hungus wrote: »

It was actually quite a lot of bands that sparked the renewed interest in the 7 string during the mid 90's, not just Korn. Fear Factory, Morbid Angel and Dream Theater also played a significant part in, and it wasn't merely nu-metal either, as there were certainly a lot of Death Metal bands taking their queue from Morbid Angel.

In terms of mass appeal and popularity, Korn outstripped all of those bands. It most certainly wasn't Dream Theatre that established the 7-string as a viable mass market guitar.

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

But then you look at the Jag and JM, and they're used for surf, noise, jazz, punk, rock, country. Solos and rhythm, heavily effected and clean, etc. Joe Pass, Nels Cline, Thurston Moore, Lee Ranaldo, Ronald Jones, Steven Drozd, Tom Verlaine, Thom Yorke, Jeff Tweedy, etc etc. When I think Les Paul, I think country jazz and metal, but mostly I think rawk.

I don't understand how you can go from saying how flexible to saying how limited they are while still supporting the same argument.

With the exception of Joe Pass (for whom the Jazzmaster was one of his guitars but is not the instrument he is most associated with, considering he has his own signature hollowbody), all of the other artists you mentioned are largely coming from the same place. I mean, Nels Cline has definitely borrowed heavily from Tom Verlaine, Ronald Jones is a pretty big Sonic Youth fan by the sounds of it, Jeff Tweedy's lead work is heavily indebted to Neil Young (playing a Les Paul, but anyway) and up until recently he was using old tremolo equipped SGs (a derivative of the Les Paul) almost exclusively, Steven Drozd and Thom Yorke are also very much in the alt rock tradition.

Looking at the Les Paul, you can go from Les Paul himself to Jimmy Page to Joey Santiago (a student of the Sonic Youth school). Three very different styles of music using the same instrument. Is that flexibility? Yes I think so. Is a Les Paul capable of sounding like anything other than a Les Paul? No? Is what a Les Paul sounds like limited to just one specific style? Doesn't seem so. Is a Jaguar/Jazzmaster capable of sounding like anything other than a Jazzmaster? Well, it is kind of related to the Strat. Is it limited to one specific style? To a certain extent it would seem so. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily depending on where you are standing.

With the exception of surf and country (though if you look at the origins of a lot of country guitar playing Les Paul figures quite heavily) from your list, the Les Paul can be used for all those other styles. And you can add every kind of rock from glam to metal to the list when the Les Paul is included.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

With the exception of Joe Pass (for whom the Jazzmaster was one of his guitars but is not the instrument he is most associated with, considering he has his own signature hollowbody), all of the other artists you mentioned are largely coming from the same place. I mean, Nels Cline has definitely borrowed heavily from Tom Verlaine, Ronald Jones is a pretty big Sonic Youth fan by the sounds of it, Jeff Tweedy's lead work is heavily indebted to Neil Young (playing a Les Paul, but anyway) and up until recently he was using old tremolo equipped SGs (a derivative of the Les Paul) almost exclusively, Steven Drozd and Thom Yorke are also very much in the alt rock tradition.

Looking at the Les Paul, you can go from Les Paul himself to Jimmy Page to Joey Santiago (a student of the Sonic Youth school). Three very different styles of music using the same instrument. Is that flexibility? Yes I think so. Is a Les Paul capable of sounding like anything other than a Les Paul? No? Is what a Les Paul sounds like limited to just one specific style? Doesn't seem so. Is a Jaguar/Jazzmaster capable of sounding like anything other than a Jazzmaster? Well, it is kind of related to the Strat. Is it limited to one specific style? To a certain extent it would seem so. Is this a bad thing, not necessarily depending on where you are standing.

Nels Cline was playing jazz long before he was playing rock (he's said the biggest influence on his guitar playing is John Coltrane), Steven Drozd's favourite guitarist is Jimmy Page, and Ronald Jones just about invented his own way of playing the guitar (if you listen to live recordings, I think he's more like a synth player). My examples show a much wider variety of sounds than yours do, I think. Compare this Jaguar to this one.

I never said Jeff Tweedy/Joe Pass didn't play other guitars, but they do/did play some offsets. Since when are we arguing about what other guitars the players used, anyway?

Karl Hungus

Seziertisch wrote: »

It most certainly wasn't Dream Theatre that established the 7-string as a viable mass market guitar.

Now you're just being fatuous. No, it wasn't Dream Theater, that's the very pointy that I'm making; that it wasn't any one band to establish the popularity of 7 Strings, it was a number of them. Fear Factory were certainly an influence on a lot of people I've spoken to who've picked up a 7, and I do believe that Korn themselves were inspired by Morbid Angel's use of 7s on Covenant. Dream Theater mightn't have been as popular as Korn, but the video for Lie which featured John Petrucci playing a classic black/green Ibanez universe was fairly popular, and had some significant play time on MTV. Even I remember that one from back in the day. If you were of the age, you'd certainly have seen this video on Beavis and Butthead and Headbanger's Ball. There's no doubting Korn's contribution to the popularity of 7 strings during the mid-90's, but it wasn't just them.

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Nels Cline was playing jazz long before he was playing rock (he's said the biggest influence on his guitar playing is John Coltrane), Steven Drozd's favourite guitarist is Jimmy Page, and Ronald Jones just about invented his own way of playing the guitar (if you listen to live recordings, I think he's more like a synth player). My examples show a much wider variety of sounds than yours do, I think. Compare this Jaguar to this one.

I never said Jeff Tweedy/Joe Pass didn't play other guitars, but they do/did play some offsets. Since when are we arguing about what other guitars the players used, anyway?

So you're telling me that Nels Cline's (at least in the context of Wilco), Steven Drozd's and Ronald Jones' playing are three totally different styles of playing representing a far greater range of variation than the difference between Les Paul, Led Zeppelin and the Pixies? Riiiiggght.

As for arguing about what other guitars players used, I gave all examples of players who were/are mostly associated with Les Pauls. You didn't do the same for Jaguars and Jazzmasters. Joe Pass is most associated with his own signature model guitar and Jeff Tweedy played olds SGs almost exclusively (for his electric rock stuff) up until the last couple of albums, though having said that I wouldn't have said that he was particularly associated with any particular guitar so I'm not sure why you mentioned him specifically in relation to the Jazz/Jag.

Karl Hungus

Seziertisch wrote: »

Looking at the title of the thread and the post of mine that he replied to, I kind of presumed he was.

And no, I wasn't talking about 7 strings there, although I think I have some lines crossed. I was talking about guitar players in general being very traditional, and in the same way that someone might sneer at a brand that isn't Gibson or Fender and brush them off without having tried them, a lot of people would similarly turn their noses up at 7 strings without trying one. What I didn't mean to suggest is that people who'd normally play those guitars should play 7 strings.

However, you say that 7 strings generally come with high output pickups, well, there's plenty of lower output vintage pickups made for 7 strings as well, Seymour Duncan produce PAFs, Jazz and JB humbuckers in 7 string models.

Did you know you can even get 7 string Teles?

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

So you're telling me that Nels Cline's (at least in the context of Wilco), Steven Drozd's and Ronald Jones' playing are three totally different styles of playing representing a far greater range of variation than the difference between Les Paul, Led Zeppelin and the Pixies? Riiiiggght.

Steven Drozd and Ronald Jones don't play guitar solos, Steven's playing is pretty minimal, while Nels is most known for his solos. Both Nels and Ronald are pretty effect-heavy, but Ronald's sounds are MILES away from from Nels'. Jimmy Page and Joe Santiago almost just plug straight in and play distorted rock with their Les Paul's, don't they?

Seziertisch wrote: »

As for arguing about what other guitars players used, I gave all examples of players who were/are mostly associated with Les Pauls. You didn't do the same for Jaguars and Jazzmasters. Joe Pass is most associated with his own signature model guitar and Jeff Tweedy played olds SGs almost exclusively (for his electric rock stuff) up until the last couple of albums, though having said that I wouldn't have said that he was particularly associated with any particular guitar so I'm not sure why you mentioned him specifically in relation to the Jazz/Jag.

I never knew we were talking about players who pioneered particular guitars into new territory, I was just making examples of the fact that the two offset Fenders in question have been applied successfully to many different styles of music and playing.

Seziertisch

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Now you're just being fatuous. No, it wasn't Dream Theater, that's the very pointy that I'm making; that it wasn't any one band to establish the popularity of 7 Strings, it was a number of them. Fear Factory were certainly an influence on a lot of people I've spoken to who've picked up a 7, and I do believe that Korn themselves were inspired by Morbid Angel's use of 7s on Covenant. Dream Theater mightn't have been as popular as Korn, but the video for Lie which featured John Petrucci playing a classic black/green Ibanez universe was fairly popular, and had some significant play time on MTV. Even I remember that one from back in the day. If you were of the age, you'd certainly have seen this video on Beavis and Butthead and Headbanger's Ball. There's no doubting Korn's contribution to the popularity of 7 strings during the mid-90's, but it wasn't just them.

In terms of making the 7-string a viable mass market guitar none of these other bands can hold a candle to Korn. The other bands popularity might (possibly) have gotten Ibanez to reissue them, but not gotten other manufacturers making them. Two years after Covenant came out and 1 year after the Dream Theater album with Lie on it was released, the 7-strings were selling so well that Ibanez didn't make any. Video on MTV or no video on MTV. This was also the same year that Demanufacture came out. No doubt this album raised the profile of the 7-string within metal, but in terms of making it an instrument with mass appeal, Korn were the band. In fact I remember interviews with Korn at the time where they talked about buying these guitars for next to nothing when they started a few years previously because nobody wanted them.

Malice

I played my 5 string bass and my 6 string guitar in a couple of bands and through all the jams and gigs I have never gotten any condescending reactions. Now maybe people were being snotty behind my back but I'd like to think that people who spoke to me about the extra strings were genuinely interested. Maybe the Galway music scene is more forgiving or something?

I suppose in some cases people simply fear that which they don't understand. Based on my own experience if you hand a 7 string guitar player a 6 string guitar they'll be able to play it but the reverse doesn't seem to hold true.

I'd also like to credit Fear Factory rather than Korn for putting the idea of trying out a 7 string into my head.

rcaz

Malice_ wrote: »

I suppose in some cases people simply fear that which they don't understand. Based on my own experience if you hand a 7 string guitar player a 6 string guitar they'll be able to play it but the reverse doesn't seem to hold true.

It'd be interesting to try that with someone who really knows their theory. I think a lot of guitarists learn based on shapes and particular movements, I guess the extra string would put those kinds of players off.

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Steven Drozd and Ronald Jones don't play guitar solos, Steven's playing is pretty minimal, while Nels is most known for his solos. Both Nels and Ronald are pretty effect-heavy, but Ronald's sounds are MILES away from from Nels'. Jimmy Page and Joe Santiago almost just plug straight in and play distorted rock with their Les Paul's, don't they?

Steven Drozd, Ronald Jones and Nels Cline are all relatively minimalist/effects based players in American alternative bands. Although the Flaming Lips and Wilco do not sound the same, nobody would say that they represent completely different genres. Joey Santiago, in terms of his approach and style, has way more in common with these than he does with Jimmy Page, so I really don't see what your point is, plug in and play or no plug in and play. I also don't see any examples of anyone doing with a Jag/Jazz what Jimmy Page did/does with a Les Paul.

El Pr0n wrote: »

I never knew we were talking about players who pioneered particular guitars into new territory, I was just making examples of the fact that the two offset Fenders in question have been applied successfully to many different styles of music and playing.

Yes, they have being applied successfully to many different styles of music, though just not as many as the Les Paul. You want noise/ambience/alternative/experimental? You've got Neil Young, Steve Malkmus, Sigur Ros, The Pixies. You want any/all variations of jazz/blues? You have too many names to mention (as opposed to a just Joe Pass). You want rock/hard rock/metal? Again, too many names to mention, though I can't think of one example for the Jazz or Jag. Surf music is about the only genre where I would say that the Jazz/Jag leave a Les Paul for dead, and even then Joey Santiago did a reasonable job with his skewed take on surf, and of course the King of the Surf Guitar, Dick Dale, plays a Stratocaster, so the Jazz/Jag aren't even the first guitars you necessarily think of.

Seziertisch

Karl Hungus wrote: »

However, you say that 7 strings generally come with high output pickups, well, there's plenty of lower output vintage pickups made for 7 strings as well, Seymour Duncan produce PAFs, Jazz and JB humbuckers in 7 string models.

Did you know you can even get 7 string Teles?

Those lower output pickups don't come stock on any of Ibanezs, do they?

Otherwise, I don't think I'd have use for one. My housemate has a 7-string and I just find that the extra string goes too far down into the territory of the bass, and wouldn't really serve a purpose in the music I play.

Demeyes

I started playing 7 strings a few years ago and I've not really looked back. I've started playing an 8 string a few months back too. I think more people should give them a chance, you can still play everything the exact same way with the top 6 strings but you have that extra option with the extended range if you want to go down there. Having more options is always a plus!
While most people still get them for metal they are pretty great for playing other stuff, like adding bass lines or playing touch style stuff. You can also do some great sounding chord inversions with the low strings. I've seen some good videos of Jazz and classical players using 7 strings really well. There are a good few options on the market for Jazz/classical guys who want to play 7 string too.
At gigs I don't get too many remarks with the 7 string. A lot of people are used to them these days and they are seen around enough so it's not that unusual. The 8 string has gotten some funny looks though!
The reason they aren't more popular would be because of the slow moving guitar world like someone else said. The most popular designs are still from the 50's and the most popular amps are based on designs with vacuum tubes. You can't argue with what works but people are reluctant to embrace newer ideas with guitars. Things like active pickups/amp modelling/Floyd Rose bridges/piezo pickups etc don't really get embraced into the wider guitar market while the old vintage gear sells through the roof. Don't get me wrong I still rock my Telecaster through my tube amp too but a lot of guys don't even bother researching newer alternative products. From Day 1 they unwaveringly just want to play their LP through a Marshall stack because that's what their idol did.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

I also don't see any examples of anyone doing with a Jag/Jazz what Jimmy Page did/does with a Les Paul.

Like what? Play boring solo passages? How about J Mascis? Page is hardly the ultimate guitar player, is he?

Seziertisch wrote: »

Yes, they have being applied successfully to many different styles of music, though just not as many as the Les Paul. You want noise/ambience/alternative? You've got Neil Young, Steve Malkmus, Sigur Ros, The Pixies. You want any/all variations of jazz/blues? You have too many names to mention (as opposed to a just Joe Pass). You want rock/hard rock/metal? Again, too many names to mention, though I can't think of one example for the Jazz or Jag. Surf music is about the only genre where I would say that the Jazz/Jag leave a Les Paul for dead, and even then Joey Santiago did a reasonable job with his skewed take on surf, and of course the King of the Surf Guitar, Dick Dale, plays a Stratocaster, so the Jazz/Jag aren't even the first guitars you necessarily think of.

Malkmus is just as much a Jazzmaster player as he is a Les Paul guy, and Jonsi of Sigur Rós doesn't play a proper Les Paul, that's a custom job. And I don't think Young/Malkmus/Pixies can hold a candle to Sonic Youth in terms of proper noise music. Re: 'just Joe Pass' - I'd refer you again to Nels.

But why are you getting so hung up on Les Paul vs. Jazzmaster?

Seziertisch

Demeyes wrote: »

I started playing 7 strings a few years ago and I've not really looked back. I've started playing an 8 string a few months back too. I think more people should give them a chance, you can still play everything the exact same way with the top 6 strings but you have that extra option with the extended range if you want to go down there. Having more options is always a plus!
While most people still get them for metal they are pretty great for playing other stuff, like adding bass lines or playing touch style stuff. You can also do some great sounding chord inversions with the low strings. I've seen some good videos of Jazz and classical players using 7 strings really well. There are a good few options on the market for Jazz/classical guys who want to play 7 string too.
At gigs I don't get too many remarks with the 7 string. A lot of people are used to them these days and they are seen around enough so it's not that unusual. The 8 string has gotten some funny looks though!
The reason they aren't more popular would be because of the slow moving guitar world like someone else said. The most popular designs are still from the 50's and the most popular amps are based on designs with vacuum tubes. You can't argue with what works but people are reluctant to embrace newer ideas with guitars. Things like active pickups/amp modelling/Floyd Rose bridges/piezo pickups etc don't really get embraced into the wider guitar market while the old vintage gear sells through the roof. Don't get me wrong I still rock my Telecaster through my tube amp too but a lot of guys don't even bother researching newer alternative products. From Day 1 they unwaveringly just want to play their LP through a Marshall stack because that's what their idol did.

Active pickups, meeeehhhh, not a fan, have tried them, didn't like them, they lack the dynamic of passives. Even a lot of metal studio guys say that EMGs and the likes lack the energy and punch of passive pickups if you are looking for a good heavy tone.

Floyd Roses, I know a couple of luthiers that consider these a real plague in terms of set up and maintenance.

Amp modelling. Largely poo, though I have heard good things about what Fractal Audio are doing (though you pay for it). Can be useful for a bit of di overdubbing, but micing up modelling amps gives some pretty depressing results. That said, I have heard good things about using convolution cabinet modelling in conjunction with a good guitar pre, so maybe there is a viable future in it. But at the moment, regarding most of the modelling stuff available, forget it.

Piezo pickups, can be good, definitely different, but potentially invasive to install. Most people would just prefer to have a separate acoustic.

Zombienosh

I tried out a 7 string because i played my 6, in dropped tuning, it was drop C at the time and wanted to go lower, So instead of tuning a 6string down to B and losing that highE why not try a 7string? well i did and it just felt right.

I have to point out ive played bass for years too, and the wider fret board on the 7 string feels similiar to bass fret board? or maybe its just in my head. anyway for me it feels like a bass/guitar mashup .

-Chris-

I bought a 7 string a few years ago and it's never been more than an "experiment" - I don't think I'd ever use it live or in a band.

I think if I needed a guitar with a low B, I'd probably string a regular guitar with set of 7 string strings (minus the high E, of course).

I just don't like the width of the 7 string neck, it never felt comfortable in my hands...

Zombienosh

-Chris- wrote: »

I just don't like the width of the 7 string neck, it never felt comfortable in my hands...

I love it, after playing the 7 string for about a year now, 6 strings feel weird to play.

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Like what? Play boring solo passages? How about J Mascis? Page is hardly the ultimate guitar player, is he?

J Mascis falls in with that whole alternative thing, he definitely isn't straight rock/blues.

As for Page being the ultimate guitar player, I'm not really a fan of his, but I would say, yeah he is in a lot of ways. His whole approach to the guitar and the recording/arranging thereof quite literally revolutionsed the world of popular music. I mean, the breakdown bit in Whole Lotta Love, with the string scratching and panning, is the precursor to what a lot of noise players are doing. Even if he didn't practice it himself, his approach to guitar arrangement/orchestration was also a precursor to players not having to playing solos. What Johnny Marr did in the Smiths was in many ways a continuation of that. The tonalities and textures of songs like No Quarter and Kashmir were the precursors of a lot of the 80's post punk/shoe gaze stuff. It's hard not to listen to the Cocteau Twins or Siouxsie and the Banshees sometimes and not be reminded of Zeppelin. And of course there is his riffage, which has resulted in a legacy or great and not so great imitators and admirers. Yeah, there are lots of boring solo passages, I agree with you, but to dismiss him because of that is to miss the point.

El Pr0n wrote: »

Malkmus is just as much a Jazzmaster player as he is a Les Paul guy, and Jonsi of Sigur Rós doesn't play a proper Les Paul, that's a custom job. And I don't think Young/Malkmus/Pixies can hold a candle to Sonic Youth in terms of proper noise music. Re: 'just Joe Pass' - I'd refer you again to Nels.

But why are you getting so hung up on Les Paul vs. Jazzmaster?

I wouldn't consider Nels Cline's solo stuff to be "straight" jazz/blues. It has more in common with Sonic Youth than with Joe Pass. As for noise, regardless of which one is noisier, Neil Young was doing it before Sonic Youth and with the exception of Lou Reed's metal machine music before anyone else. Regarding Steve Malkmus playing both, I refer back to what I said about a Les Paul sounding like a Les Paul and a JM sounding like a JM, Steve Malkmus obviously agrees, hence he has both. As for Sigur Ros, he might be playing a custom instrument now, but he was definitely playing a Les Paul when they first arrived on the scene.

I can also say that as someone who plays both a Jazzmaster and a Les Paul, the Les Paul is overall the more flexible instrument in my experience. Depending on what someone was into, the Les Paul would be the only choice. I have seen this when other people play my guitars, they gravitate more towards one instrument than the other. More traditional guys go for the Les Paul (Johnny Marr is right about the Jazz/Jag not being suited to pentatonic blues), and everyone else is kind of torn between them (seeing as they feel and play so differently). I have yet to encounter anyone that has said that the Les Paul wasn't their cup of tea on at least some level. Anyone who fails to see the greatness of the Les Paul as an instrument has yet to play a good one. Every guitar player, I think, can think of at least one player they really admire that plays a Les Paul, depending on your tastes, I don't think the same could be said for the Jazzmaster/Jaguar.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

As for Page being the ultimate guitar player, I'm not really a fan of his, but I would say, yeah he is in a lot of ways. His whole approach to the guitar and the recording/arranging thereof quite literally revolutionsed the world of popular music. I mean, the breakdown bit in Whole Lotta Love, with the string scratching and panning, is the precursor to what a lot of noise players are doing. Even if he didn't practice it himself, his approach to guitar arrangement/orchestration was also a precursor to players not having to playing solos. What Johnny Marr did in the Smiths was in many ways a continuation of that. The tonalities and textures of songs like No Quarter and Kashmir were the precursors of a lot of the 80's post punk/shoe gaze stuff. It's hard not to listen to the Cocteau Twins or Siouxsie and the Banshees sometimes and not be reminded of Zeppelin. And of course there is his riffage, which has resulted in a legacy or great and not so great imitators and admirers. Yeah, there are lots of boring solo passages, I agree with you, but to dismiss him because of that is to miss the point.

Anyone who knows a little about music could put together a string arrangement like Kashmir. Come up with a chord progression, and listen to a tiny bit of classical music. I think the most interesting part of that song is John Bonham's contribution. No doubt that everyone ignores Page's achievements as an arranger, being good at something and being an innovator aren't the same. And is the strength of No Quarter not down to John Paul Jones?

Seziertisch wrote: »

I wouldn't consider Nels Cline's solo stuff to be "straight" jazz/blues.

What would you consider 'straight' jazz? Jazz now isn't the same as Joe Pass' jazz.

Seziertisch wrote: »

Neil Young was doing it before Sonic Youth and with the exception of Lou Reed's metal machine music before anyone else.

Er, none of these guys invented noisey music, ffs. Stravinsky, Stockhausen, Ligeti, Xenakis, to name four.

Seziertisch wrote: »

I can also say that as someone who plays both a Jazzmaster and a Les Paul, the Les Paul is overall the more flexible instrument in my experience. Depending on what someone was into, the Les Paul would be the only choice. I have seen this when other people play my guitars, they gravitate more towards one instrument than the other. More traditional guys go for the Les Paul (Johnny Marr is right about the Jazz/Jag not being suited to pentatonic blues), and everyone else is kind of torn between them (seeing as they feel and play so differently). I have yet to encounter anyone that has said that the Les Paul wasn't their cup of tea on at least some level. Anyone who fails to see the greatness of the Les Paul as an instrument has yet to play a good one.

I can say as someone who plays both a Tele and a Jazzmaster, no guitar has felt more comfortable/playable/applicable to me than a Jazzmaster. Maybe you're not trying hard enough?

Seziertisch wrote: »

Depending on what someone was into, the Les Paul would be the only choice.

Seziertisch wrote: »

Every guitar player, I think, can think of at least one player they really admire that plays a Les Paul, depending on your tastes, I don't think the same could be said for the Jazzmaster/Jaguar.

Very woolly arguments there.

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Anyone who knows a little about music could put together a string arrangement like Kashmir. Come up with a chord progression, and listen to a tiny bit of classical music. I think the most interesting part of that song is John Bonham's contribution. No doubt that everyone ignores Page's achievements as an arranger, being good at something and being an innovator aren't the same. And is the strength of No Quarter not down to John Paul Jones?

Doing it before anyone else makes somebody an innovator. Jimmy Page was the first to do a lot of stuff. Also, considering how easy it is to write and arrange something like Kashmir (a chord progression and a tiny bit of classical music) I'm surprised everyone isn't doing it.

El Pr0n wrote: »

What would you consider 'straight' jazz? Jazz now isn't the same as Joe Pass' jazz.

I'm talking about what would be regarded as traditional jazz tone. Flatwound strings, clean amp etc. Obviously jazz now isn't the same, but as I said the tones on Nels Cline's solo work have more in common with Sonic Youth than they do with Joe Pass.

El Pr0n wrote: »

Er, none of these guys invented noisey music, ffs. Stravinsky, Stockhausen, Ligeti, Xenakis, to name four.

We are talking about the electric guitar here, not European Avant Garde. I don't recall any of the composers you mention using electric guitars... My point was that Neil Young was getting waves of feedback and amplifier meltdown before Sonic Youth.

El Pr0n wrote: »

I can say as someone who plays both a Tele and a Jazzmaster, no guitar has felt more comfortable/playable/applicable to me than a Jazzmaster. Maybe you're not trying hard enough?

I didn't make any comment on comfort or playability, as for applicability I have stated it clearly. The Les Paul (and the Strat for that matter) turn up in far more and more varied genres of music than the Jazzmaster or Jaguar. In fact, I can't think of a single genre in which they don't turn up. The same cannot be said for the Jazzmaster or Jaguar. Both of these guitars fell severely out of favour for a longish period and it was only really with the arrival of New Wave/alternative music at the end of the 70s/early 80s that they became reestablished. This was partly down to the fact that they were readily and affordably available second hand compared to more popular models. Within certain genres they have have since become almost standard issue (see shoegaze etc.). However, there are whole genres in which they are never used. You say this is because people haven't given them a chance or are too obsessed with the old(er) favourites. I say it is because they are wholly unsuited to certain types of music and do not offer what people who play this music are looking for. In this point, Johnny Marr (currently a Jazzmaster/Jaguar player) says the very same thing, citing it as the very reason he is playing them at the moment. [/QUOTE]

El Pr0n wrote: »

Very woolly arguments there.

It is really quite simple, Johnny Marr plays Jazzmasters/Jaguars because they don't inspire pentatonic riffola. The friends of mine who are into pentatonic riffola don't like them for the same reason that Johnny Marr does. Pentatonic riffola (if you are so inclined) is something that a Les Paul (or Strat) does really well (though they are not limited to that). Considering the popularity of pentatonic riffola amongst the guitar playing community in general, it is not difficult to understand why Jazzmasters and Jaguars haven't caught on to the same extent as Les Pauls and Strats. Also in the genres where Jazzmasters and Jaguars are popular, you will just as soon find a Les Paul or a Strat. It would seem Les Pauls and Strats seem to have a cross over appeal that Jazzmasters and Jaguars don't have.

As for casting aspersions on my "woolly" arguments, at least I am arguing from experience. I would guess that you have only played a proper Les Paul in passing if at all. Maybe you need to sit down with one and try to come to grips with it. As I said (and others say), it plays quite differently from a Jazzmaster.

subzero12

jaysis lads the arguments getting a bit off point.
but as karl hungus said genrally musicians then to limit there choice in instruments to select brands and models eg gibson les paul , fender strat ,

i personally got into the idea of playing 7 strings from listening to as mentioned morbid angel ,meshuggah,fear factory even the deftones.
it was never korn that got me into the idea of 7s either but i wont disagree that they didnt increase the popularity in the 90s

so i was playing drop tuned lps and sgs so about five years ago , i got my first 7 string and ive have a few since ibanez xiphos,ibanez 1527, ibanez uv777p,

since then ive a schecter c7 backjack and a blackjack atx , and there propbably the best guitars ive ever play it beat any les paul or ibby hands down ,for what i do , the advantages of emm is the 26.5 scale rather then the gibson scale stuff i was using intitally.

anyone could say why not just get a baritone 6 .
but the you lose the high e so your limiting yourself then too.

but saying theres endless possibilties on a 6 string is fair enough but anyone on a 7 can do that and more so techincally you are limiting yourself in a sense. thats just my 2 cents thought