Why no Name And Shame?

J.D.R

I have (very) recently read a thread about a team not calling shots, and yet in the same thread, people are saying they can't be named and shamed. I don't see why not.

I myself am only getting into the sport (My first skirmish only 2 weeks away) but from the sounds of these boards, its a great way to spend an afternoon and 40 quid, but I would hate to play games with lads who cheat. I personally would like to know who to avoid, but by the sounds of the people, I will have to find out by myself, and I want to know why this is?

It would be fair enough if it was unjustified, but if some people are proven to cheat, say by not calling shots on regular occaisions, or having been banned from multiple sites, or repeatedly getting "Warned" by marshals, then I think they should be mentioned.

Thats just what I am thinking, and by the looks of it, others think it too.

Tigger

J.D.R wrote: »

I have (very) recently read a thread about a team not calling shots, and yet in the same thread, people are saying they can't be named and shamed. I don't see why not.

I myself am only getting into the sport (My first skirmish only 2 weeks away) but from the sounds of these boards, its a great way to spend an afternoon and 40 quid, but I would hate to play games with lads who cheat. I personally would like to know who to avoid, but by the sounds of the people, I will have to find out by myself, and I want to know why this is?

It would be fair enough if it was unjustified, but if some people are proven to cheat, say by not calling shots on regular occaisions, or having been banned from multiple sites, or repeatedly getting "Warned" by marshals, then I think they should be mentioned.

Thats just what I am thinking, and by the looks of it, others think it too.

never gonna happen

J.D.R

Tigger wrote: »

never gonna happen

Why not? I know the mods might be concerned with bullying and whatnot, but if some peope don't play by the rules, people should know

Private Snafu

Because you have to prove people are cheating first.... separating fact from fiction is next to impossible unfortunately in airsoft due to rumors and half truths constantly doing the rounds here

J.D.R

Would it not be a simple matter of asking sites which teams stand out the most in terms of cheating?

senordingdong

There could be serious legal implications of saying such things about people on a public forum.

Stonewolf

senordingdong wrote: »

There could be serious legal implications of saying such things about people on a public forum.

You already sign a waiver to play on most sites.

Tigger

to clarify

i'd love it but its never gonna happen

that and the fps cheats buit tbh i reckon the no hits ase the bigger issue nowadays

tonyj_mc

its very issue to accuse a team of cheating in a public form hidden behind user names.

In theory i agree that it should be name and shame its very difficult to prove people not taking their hits.

my opinion would be raise it with a marshal when you see it happneing or think its happening, the marshalls will keep an eye out for it and take action if nessecray, if not vote with your feet don't go back to the site.

Sperminator

lperrozzi wrote: »

Because you have to prove people are cheating first....

i agree, they have a right to have there say too. i know from experance that some time a person will not feel the hit due to the amount of clothing, or it the bb hit a flap on the trouser leg pocket. this does not mean that these people are cheating. this has happend to me in the past and a marshal pointed it out to me afterwards, i did'nt disagree and said fair enough.

J.D.R

Stonewolf wrote: »

You already sign a waiver to play on most sites.

Yeah. If you break a legal document, you cannot hide behind the law

Tigger

Stonewolf wrote: »

You already sign a waiver to play on most sites.

not a waiver that allows your sporting charachter to be labiled (not a legal term )

J.D.R

Sperminator wrote: »

i agree, they have a right to have there say too. i know from experance that some time a person will not feel the hit due to the amount of clothing, or it the bb hit a flap on the trouser leg pocket. this does not mean that these people are cheating. this has happend to me in the past and a marshal pointed it out to me afterwards, i did'nt disagree and said fair enough.

Thats why I'd propose the name and shame for repeat offenders

Vents

If you take the name and shame idea on to it's natural conclusion you would find individuals using it as a vendetta. How many people would need to agree that this person or tea should be 'outed' as a cheat and for how long would the black mark be hanging over their head? one mistake in a game and your mentioned if not tagged as a cheat?

The only way I can see anything like this working is on a site by site basis. Each site taking it upon themselves to regulate the patrons on their own sites (This is being done on a daily basis as we speak)
An open thread discussion on perceived cheating players and teams would only be seen as unfair and bulling.

Tigger

Vents wrote: »

If you take the name and shame idea on to it's natural conclusion you would find individuals using it as a vendetta. How many people would need to agree that this person or tea should be 'outed' as a cheat and for how long would the black mark be hanging over their head? one mistake in a game and your mentioned if not tagged as a cheat?

The only way I can see anything like this working is on a site by site basis. Each site taking it upon themselves to regulate the patrons on their own sites (This is being done on a daily basis as we speak)
An open thread discussion on perceived cheating players and teams would only be seen as unfair and bulling.

that said i 'm willing no one would ever say i don't take my hits

nor anyone on teams i play on

J.D.R

But is there a name and shame on sites? I can see where you are coming from with the vendetta thing, but I still think there should be some way of finding these things out. Its OK for serious teams who play on a regular basis, as they would have their ear to the ground, but the only way I can find out about the happenings of the airsoft world is through this site, and my local shop

Rogue-Trooper

J.D.R. wrote:

Thats why I'd propose the name and shame for repeat offenders

Who will police it?

What's to stop me posting someone's name on the list because I don't like them and not because they are actually guilty of cheating?

The system is too flawed and too open to abuse. Do you really think Boards.ie is going to let you post a list of potential cheaters? You are in deep libel doo-doo there I'd reckon.

J.D.R

Rogue-Trooper wrote: »

Who will police it?

What's to stop me posting someone's name on the list because I don't like them and not because they are actually guilty of cheating?

The system is too flawed and too open to abuse. Do you really think Boards.ie is going to let you post a list of potential cheaters? You are in deep libel doo-doo there I'd reckon.

Thats why I would leave it to higher powers, ie Sites, and mod approved marshals

Brabazone

Would it not be posible for the site operators to setup a website on one of those free web hosting sites that only the skirmish site operators have access to. Every time some one breaks the rules let the site operators log it in the web site for the other site operators to see. This way they would know who the offenders are. Don't most skirmish sites state in there rules that they have the right to refuse admission.

I don't know how legal it would be with the current wavers an all but couldn't the wording of the wavers be changed to allow for this.

Maybe its a bit mad but I'm just putting it out there.

Inari

You could have it as a locked thread with a dedicated mod/member who is PM'd accusations which must include Accusers name, supposed-cheater's name, details of the event, the site in which it happened, what was done (i.e. marhsalls made aware) and that way the mod/member/person can get in touch, verify each claim before naming and shaming. A lot of work, but if someone was devoted to it, the idea could work

Tigger

Inari wrote: »

You could have it as a locked thread with a dedicated mod/member who is PM'd accusations which must include Accusers name, supposed-cheater's name, details of the event, the site in which it happened, what was done (i.e. marhsalls made aware) and that way the mod/member/person can get in touch, verify each claim before naming and shaming. A lot of work, but if someone was devoted to it, the idea could work

unless you have video evidence a coinfession its not gonna happen

we coulkd use a news group to avoid any slander issues but then there'd be no real verification

Leftyflip

Tigger wrote: »

that and the fps cheats buit tbh i reckon the no hits ase the bigger issue nowadays

"The fps cheats", I'd be interested to know where this is happening. Every airsoft device should be chrono'd by site marshals before any players are allowed play. I'd also be interested in seeing how said "fps cheats" actually work, because it's not very easy to increase the fps with out someone noticing. I think personally that hot guns are a bigger problem than people who don't take hits. I get annoyed when someone doesn't take hits, but I get fairly p*ssed off when someone uses a hot gun, now how they get that past the chrono is beyond me.

If I'm marshalling and I catch someone using a hot gun, that they somehow got past me, they'd be kicked out of the game so fast they'd be spinning. If someone gets caught not taking hits, they get a warning, then if I get another complaint, they get sin binned. Player marshals are a valuable asset on the field, if the marshall can pick out a few players, he or she knows and trusts, they are one of the best ways to catch cheaters. They can see who doesn't take hits and have more of a chance of catching them than a marshal. If they catch someone they point them out to the marshals and they are warned or sin binned as necessary.

If people insist on cheating constantly, they'll get kicked off site. Simple as. A name and shame system will never work, there are too many complications to it, as Rogue said, there won't be much to stop him from saying that "X" from "Y Team" is a cheater, etc. You as a player have to let marshals know, they aren't every where at once.

Sperminator

Tigger wrote: »

unless you have video evidence a coinfession its not gonna happen

we coulkd use a news group to avoid any slander issues but then there'd be no real verification

i have to agree with you on that

Boston

I saw JDR not take a hit two weeks ago at the local airsoft venue.

Q.E.D

Sperminator

Boston wrote: »

I saw JDR not take a hit two weeks ago at the local airsoft venue.

Q.E.D

will we take it your are making a point

Leftyflip

Sperminator wrote: »

will we take it your are making a point

We could equally call it trolling...

ravydavygravy

Agree with earlier posters - name and shame (in any subject) is a legal minefield, and not very clever with no hard evidence. Just tell the marshalls like you are supposed to, and let them deal with it.

Dave

Brabazone

A few years ago I used to be a taxi driver. While doing this, if I ever had a problem with a customer I would share this information with all the taxi drivers in the area. It would be agreed by all that these people would not be carried in any cab by any of the cab company's.

All I am say is that if a person or persons are repeatable caught cheating by a marshal then they should some way of the information being shared with other sites so these people cant move form one site to the next ruining it for everyone.

gerrowadat

Brabazone is exactly right.

Do people honestly believe that blatant cheaters aren't well-known by site owners?

I know I've personally seen site owners both take and receive calls about groups of lads going between sites and being turned away for hot guns, cheating, aggression. It happens. It doesn't need to be organised.

Sperminator

just one last thing to say on this subject. when i go out to airsoft i go out for fun, if i hit someone and they don't take there hit, i don't let it gat to me anymore, why should i allow them to ruin my good nature, no i just make sure that next time he feels the hit(s).

Hivemind187

*sigh*

(perhaps the mods could merge this one with the original ""name and shame" thread from last year).

Name and shame requires someone accusing someone else. Suggesting that someone is a cheat is defamation. The accuser can be sued, the site hosting the content can be sued and likely any venue implicated could be sued as well.

There is absolutely no way to police a system for naming and shaming without creating an authorative class within the airsoft culture - a kind of gestapo who would have the power to decide whether someone is or isnt actually a cheat. Frankly, the kind of people who would volunteer for that sort of job are precisely the types you wouldnt want to have them.

Bullets point was that it would be so easy to accuse anyone of anything i we were to be allowed to hide behind user names. Anonymity also robs the accused of the right to face their accuser (natural justice).

All in all, a bad idea.

Boston

Leftyflip wrote: »

We could equally call it trolling...

You misspelled Irony lad.

Sperminator wrote: »

will we take it your are making a point

The best points are simply made, nei?

se conman

I don't think it is that hard to set up a name and shame system.
As an example;
In motorsport , the hosting club appoints a few "judges of fact"They watch for cheeting and their word is final with no appeal. You agree to this when you sign your entry form.
The same could be written into every waiver form also agreeing to be named and shamed if so deemed by a judge of fact (marshell)

Boston

se conman wrote: »

The same could be written into every waiver form also agreeing to be named and shamed if so deemed by a judge of fact (marshell)

You can't sign away your legal rights. The waiver wouldn't stand up.

Stercus Accidit

How many times need people be told.

Legally this is defamation, if it is printed it is libel, I could be cheaty mc cheaterson but when I sue you, I guarantee I'd win against your unprovable accusation.

There is no waiver for this, where did that sh1te come from? There is no way around the law.

Brabazone

Boston wrote: »

You can't sign away your legal rights. The waiver wouldn't stand up.

would it not be along the lines of a credit agreement with a bank. If you fail to make payments on a loan will a bank not put you on some kind of defaulters list. And will they not use this to determine your eligibility for loans in the future.

I am not saying we should have a public name and shame system. BTW, I thought in the beginning that wouldn't have been a bad idea but after reading some of the comments that the more informed posters submitted I have now change my mind on that one. I think that a system just for the site owners is something that could be looked at. A system that only allowed for marshals to submit information on teams that cheat. I'm not saying I am right, I'm sure someone will post here stating why that cant be done. However, if noting is done the sport will go down the toilet with all the cheaters and all we will be left with is a cupboard full a Airsoft gear and no where to use it.

I think cheaters must be made to fear the consequences of there actions or they will just keep on doing it.

Boston

Brabazone wrote: »

would it not be along the lines of a credit agreement with a bank. If you fail to make payments on a loan will a bank not put you on some kind of defaulters list. And will they not use this to determine your eligibility for loans in the future.

Interesting thing about libel and slander is that legally speaking even if the accusation is true, if you're deemed to no be in a position to prove it, you'll be found guilty. Banks can prove poor credit history. This nonsense cannot be proven.

Brabazone

Your right it cant be proven, there is only the marshal to say that an individual is cheating or not. But the issue I have with that is you can pick any sport where there is a referee and there decision is final. Why is the difference between this and site owners and their officials? BTW, i'm only asking the question, I not arguing the point, I'm just curious to know what differentiates airsoft form other sports with this regard.

thermo

I for one think site owners/operators should be able to post a list of people they have had to deal with over the weekend.
If mr x who runs site x said he has had to sin bin mr y and z from team a for cheating or he has denied entry to 4 players from team f for having aeg's shooting hot, then that is a public service to the community as a whole and if he only reports the truth( that he did infract players) then surly that can't be libel?????

Firekitten

I voted no.... Why?

Firstly, This will be abused. Look at the papers when they do this... even if its proven false, "There's no smoke without fire" Springs up.

Secondly, Airsoft is not about this... There isnt that much cheating tbh... and with such a system, should someone accidentally not take hits... thier reputation is screwed for life...

Third... a case I'll present here. Take this as you will.


I was banned from using 500fps sniper rifles at a site. People reported me for taking under minimum engagement range headshots.

I can tell you, on one hand, the number of headshots ive made in 6 years as an airsoft sniper. Three. And I appologised to all 3 players, directly after, or later. I dont like doing it.

The head marshal said he saw me once aproach, and sight a corner of a building, under range. Then by his own admission. BACK UP, to the correct range.

'ah but you must have seen him'.

It boiled down to the fact that a lot of the oldschool players at that site didnt apreciate being out shot, and out fought by a female... they felt emasculated.

Oddly, i left that site, and never returned out of disgust. I had been a regular player for 3 years... and trusted, and known personally to the owner. But reports are reports. Funnily enough no other site has ever had a single complaint... I've played at over twenty in my time.

Fair use of the system similar to this... or a weaker form. But see how open to abuse that is?

repeatedly report someone till they get 'blacklisted'... it works... people will see that, and abuse it in this idea. It can lead to plain and simple bulling.




I know some of you will read this and think "ah well shes making excuses/whining/trying to blame others for her evil ways.... what a bad player...."


My point exactly. :rolleyes:

KonFusion

if noting is done the sport will go down the toilet with all the cheaters and all we will be left with is a cupboard full a Airsoft gear and no where to use it.

I disagree, and also voted No, for various reasons which have already been mentioned, but also because I've been to around 100 skirmishes, and I'm really enjoying the sport/hobby, and I have been since the day I started, I have not come across the rampant cheating which is inferred quite a bit in threads such as this, and I hope I never will. Perhaps I've just been lucky.

I enjoy airsoft as it is, and have so far, I don't want Big Brother watching over me when I play, and therefore would not enforce such on anyone else, and I think threads such as these do nothing in reality to help the apparent problem, or airsoft as a whole. Nor do "Is our sport really full of Morons" threads, and I have often found an underlying elitism within such threads, but that's a topic for another day.

I think cheaters must be made to fear the consequences of there actions or they will just keep on doing it.

With all the quasi hate-mongering that goes in with regards to cheaters, I'm surprised such a fear has not already been instilled.

Also remember we each have a responsibility as an airsofter to our sport, and we should bear that in mind when posting, especially since this forum is a central point for people new to airsoft in Ireland who want to learn more. We do not want them to be presented with such negatives before they've even had a chance to form their own opinion.

I also took out the poster's name of the quotes above, as I was using them more as examples of a possible shared consensus of viewpoints, and did not want anything I said to seem to be intended towards that individual poster.

J.D.R

Right, so in an ideal society, this would work, where everyone in honest nd upfront, but also if this was an ideal society, we would not need such a system.

Since we do not live in said society, this would be open to law suits and blackmail.

fayer

Serious work was put into this last year by the IAA to support site operators that wanted to introduce it without being sued off the face of the planet, it went no were due to lack of support.

I said it last time this was talked about. The Justice system holds tree things in Law above all else, Live, Liberty and the right to your good name, you need a smoking gun to take any of them away.

If site operators catch people cheating on ther site, BAN THEM, if this happened they would run out of places to play very fast, but sadly it dose not happen in all sites and the cheaters are let run free because they are the "home team" or a well known group. Sites do not need the business of cheaters because other players will quickly stop going their. I know 3 sites that enforce strict zero tolerance on repeat cheaters these sites have more than enough business.

We don't need a list, and it is totally unworkable legally, we need all site owners to stand up to cheaters and not wait for someone to solve the problem for them. (Sorry for the general statement, its for the exception not the rule in site operators)

Brabazone

thermo wrote: »

I for one think site owners/operators should be able to post a list of people they have had to deal with over the weekend.
If mr x who runs site x said he has had to sin bin mr y and z from team a for cheating or he has denied entry to 4 players from team f for having aeg's shooting hot, then that is a public service to the community as a whole and if he only reports the truth( that he did infract players) then surly that can't be libel?????

Boston put me straight on this one, He is right when he says that someone, ie marshal cannot say a player or team was cheating and publish that information in some kind of public media. The reason he cant do that is because it is his word against another person or persons. If they took him to courts he would be found guilty on the fact that it is his word against theirs and that someone's word alone does not constitute fact. The alleged offenders do not have to prove anything where as the marshal has to have actual physical prof to prove his case.

But, in saying all that I still personally cannot understand what the difference between a ref in a football match and a marshal at a skirmish site. I ask that as a question because a ref can red card you and you have to take your punishment but if a marshal witness a player cheating he doesn't share the same rights. By that I mean the information cannot be shared with other sites in the same way a footballer could have a ban imposed for a couple of games. Or maybe he does have the same rights and I'm just missing something here, If that is the case will someone explain what I'm missing?.

Firekitten

fayer wrote: »

If site operators catch people cheating on ther site, BAN THEM,

Oh.... we already have that... score.



Next topic?

JonnyTwoCombs

I also voted NO...

I have often been in the postion of 'hey this f#cker isn't calling his hit'.

I'll give you an example... my 'target' would have been just on the range limit of my AEG. I give him a quick burst, and there is no call. So I give it another burst, and still no call. I'm getting a bit annoyed now, so I give it another burst!

Still no call!!! Now I could start thinking CHEATING B######!

But I move a bit closer, give another.... and what do you know. The person calls out the hit.

Was this person cheating, NO! They were just out of range, which is just one of the things that effects us all because we are limited to 1J, there are also wind and other environmental aspects that affect the performance and accuracy of our equipment.

I wonder how many others would give a fellow player the benefit of the doubt.

Vents

I would agree with Johnny whole heartedly. It is quite amazine how ofeten you miss a "target" when playing out side.

Point in case; I was a marshal at the weekend and was 3 meters away from a player under extream fire. He was up against the wall of a base and was taking fire from a covered position who had overwatch on him from 8 meters away. BB's flying all around him, hiting twigs and wall but not him. NOT ONE. I watched every richoche and not one hit him. I was amazed. I, as anyone would have thought, he was hit for sure, but no. everyone was a miss.

There are so many issues with a flying BB that honesty is the only policy.:)

thebillynator

well sometime the player might genuinely not notice or it may hit loose clothing for example if they are running ,hits clothes player might genuinely not notice and i dont mind but if it hits them and you see them flinch and do not raise the hand that annoys me

Firekitten

JonnyTwoCombs wrote: »

But I move a bit closer, give another.... and what do you know. The person calls out the hit..

As a Marshal... I see that far too often....

'Hey marshal my gun must be hitting him.. (its mine, its awesome etc) he therefore must be cheating!'

Spooky-Vinny

As much as i like the thought of "name and shame" but agree with everyone that says it is next to impossible to prove that someone is actualy cheating which will more than likely result in a huge arguement over what "actualy" happened!
It's a bad idea but if its as big of a situation as we all might have encountered we do not need to name names as we all know already.
Best way i believe is to inform the marshall and let them keep a extra on them and hopefully they can sort it out before it can get any worse.
I think all marshalls should have som kind of meeting in relation to "rules" "punishment" and "what to look out for"!
I'm just say...
xXx