Why no Name And Shame?

J.D.R

I have (very) recently read a thread about a team not calling shots, and yet in the same thread, people are saying they can't be named and shamed. I don't see why not.

I myself am only getting into the sport (My first skirmish only 2 weeks away) but from the sounds of these boards, its a great way to spend an afternoon and 40 quid, but I would hate to play games with lads who cheat. I personally would like to know who to avoid, but by the sounds of the people, I will have to find out by myself, and I want to know why this is?

It would be fair enough if it was unjustified, but if some people are proven to cheat, say by not calling shots on regular occaisions, or having been banned from multiple sites, or repeatedly getting "Warned" by marshals, then I think they should be mentioned.

Thats just what I am thinking, and by the looks of it, others think it too.

Tigger

J.D.R wrote: »

I have (very) recently read a thread about a team not calling shots, and yet in the same thread, people are saying they can't be named and shamed. I don't see why not.

I myself am only getting into the sport (My first skirmish only 2 weeks away) but from the sounds of these boards, its a great way to spend an afternoon and 40 quid, but I would hate to play games with lads who cheat. I personally would like to know who to avoid, but by the sounds of the people, I will have to find out by myself, and I want to know why this is?

It would be fair enough if it was unjustified, but if some people are proven to cheat, say by not calling shots on regular occaisions, or having been banned from multiple sites, or repeatedly getting "Warned" by marshals, then I think they should be mentioned.

Thats just what I am thinking, and by the looks of it, others think it too.

never gonna happen

J.D.R

Tigger wrote: »

never gonna happen

Why not? I know the mods might be concerned with bullying and whatnot, but if some peope don't play by the rules, people should know

Private Snafu

Because you have to prove people are cheating first.... separating fact from fiction is next to impossible unfortunately in airsoft due to rumors and half truths constantly doing the rounds here

J.D.R

Would it not be a simple matter of asking sites which teams stand out the most in terms of cheating?

senordingdong

There could be serious legal implications of saying such things about people on a public forum.

Stonewolf

senordingdong wrote: »

There could be serious legal implications of saying such things about people on a public forum.

You already sign a waiver to play on most sites.

Tigger

to clarify

i'd love it but its never gonna happen

that and the fps cheats buit tbh i reckon the no hits ase the bigger issue nowadays

tonyj_mc

its very issue to accuse a team of cheating in a public form hidden behind user names.

In theory i agree that it should be name and shame its very difficult to prove people not taking their hits.

my opinion would be raise it with a marshal when you see it happneing or think its happening, the marshalls will keep an eye out for it and take action if nessecray, if not vote with your feet don't go back to the site.

Sperminator

lperrozzi wrote: »

Because you have to prove people are cheating first....

i agree, they have a right to have there say too. i know from experance that some time a person will not feel the hit due to the amount of clothing, or it the bb hit a flap on the trouser leg pocket. this does not mean that these people are cheating. this has happend to me in the past and a marshal pointed it out to me afterwards, i did'nt disagree and said fair enough.

J.D.R

Stonewolf wrote: »

You already sign a waiver to play on most sites.

Yeah. If you break a legal document, you cannot hide behind the law

Tigger

Stonewolf wrote: »

You already sign a waiver to play on most sites.

not a waiver that allows your sporting charachter to be labiled (not a legal term )

J.D.R

Sperminator wrote: »

i agree, they have a right to have there say too. i know from experance that some time a person will not feel the hit due to the amount of clothing, or it the bb hit a flap on the trouser leg pocket. this does not mean that these people are cheating. this has happend to me in the past and a marshal pointed it out to me afterwards, i did'nt disagree and said fair enough.

Thats why I'd propose the name and shame for repeat offenders

Vents

If you take the name and shame idea on to it's natural conclusion you would find individuals using it as a vendetta. How many people would need to agree that this person or tea should be 'outed' as a cheat and for how long would the black mark be hanging over their head? one mistake in a game and your mentioned if not tagged as a cheat?

The only way I can see anything like this working is on a site by site basis. Each site taking it upon themselves to regulate the patrons on their own sites (This is being done on a daily basis as we speak)
An open thread discussion on perceived cheating players and teams would only be seen as unfair and bulling.

Tigger

Vents wrote: »

If you take the name and shame idea on to it's natural conclusion you would find individuals using it as a vendetta. How many people would need to agree that this person or tea should be 'outed' as a cheat and for how long would the black mark be hanging over their head? one mistake in a game and your mentioned if not tagged as a cheat?

The only way I can see anything like this working is on a site by site basis. Each site taking it upon themselves to regulate the patrons on their own sites (This is being done on a daily basis as we speak)
An open thread discussion on perceived cheating players and teams would only be seen as unfair and bulling.

that said i 'm willing no one would ever say i don't take my hits

nor anyone on teams i play on

J.D.R

But is there a name and shame on sites? I can see where you are coming from with the vendetta thing, but I still think there should be some way of finding these things out. Its OK for serious teams who play on a regular basis, as they would have their ear to the ground, but the only way I can find out about the happenings of the airsoft world is through this site, and my local shop

Rogue-Trooper

J.D.R. wrote:

Thats why I'd propose the name and shame for repeat offenders

Who will police it?

What's to stop me posting someone's name on the list because I don't like them and not because they are actually guilty of cheating?

The system is too flawed and too open to abuse. Do you really think Boards.ie is going to let you post a list of potential cheaters? You are in deep libel doo-doo there I'd reckon.

J.D.R

Rogue-Trooper wrote: »

Who will police it?

What's to stop me posting someone's name on the list because I don't like them and not because they are actually guilty of cheating?

The system is too flawed and too open to abuse. Do you really think Boards.ie is going to let you post a list of potential cheaters? You are in deep libel doo-doo there I'd reckon.

Thats why I would leave it to higher powers, ie Sites, and mod approved marshals

Brabazone

Would it not be posible for the site operators to setup a website on one of those free web hosting sites that only the skirmish site operators have access to. Every time some one breaks the rules let the site operators log it in the web site for the other site operators to see. This way they would know who the offenders are. Don't most skirmish sites state in there rules that they have the right to refuse admission.

I don't know how legal it would be with the current wavers an all but couldn't the wording of the wavers be changed to allow for this.

Maybe its a bit mad but I'm just putting it out there.

Inari

You could have it as a locked thread with a dedicated mod/member who is PM'd accusations which must include Accusers name, supposed-cheater's name, details of the event, the site in which it happened, what was done (i.e. marhsalls made aware) and that way the mod/member/person can get in touch, verify each claim before naming and shaming. A lot of work, but if someone was devoted to it, the idea could work

Tigger

Inari wrote: »

You could have it as a locked thread with a dedicated mod/member who is PM'd accusations which must include Accusers name, supposed-cheater's name, details of the event, the site in which it happened, what was done (i.e. marhsalls made aware) and that way the mod/member/person can get in touch, verify each claim before naming and shaming. A lot of work, but if someone was devoted to it, the idea could work

unless you have video evidence a coinfession its not gonna happen

we coulkd use a news group to avoid any slander issues but then there'd be no real verification

Leftyflip

Tigger wrote: »

that and the fps cheats buit tbh i reckon the no hits ase the bigger issue nowadays

"The fps cheats", I'd be interested to know where this is happening. Every airsoft device should be chrono'd by site marshals before any players are allowed play. I'd also be interested in seeing how said "fps cheats" actually work, because it's not very easy to increase the fps with out someone noticing. I think personally that hot guns are a bigger problem than people who don't take hits. I get annoyed when someone doesn't take hits, but I get fairly p*ssed off when someone uses a hot gun, now how they get that past the chrono is beyond me.

If I'm marshalling and I catch someone using a hot gun, that they somehow got past me, they'd be kicked out of the game so fast they'd be spinning. If someone gets caught not taking hits, they get a warning, then if I get another complaint, they get sin binned. Player marshals are a valuable asset on the field, if the marshall can pick out a few players, he or she knows and trusts, they are one of the best ways to catch cheaters. They can see who doesn't take hits and have more of a chance of catching them than a marshal. If they catch someone they point them out to the marshals and they are warned or sin binned as necessary.

If people insist on cheating constantly, they'll get kicked off site. Simple as. A name and shame system will never work, there are too many complications to it, as Rogue said, there won't be much to stop him from saying that "X" from "Y Team" is a cheater, etc. You as a player have to let marshals know, they aren't every where at once.

Sperminator

Tigger wrote: »

unless you have video evidence a coinfession its not gonna happen

we coulkd use a news group to avoid any slander issues but then there'd be no real verification

i have to agree with you on that

Boston

I saw JDR not take a hit two weeks ago at the local airsoft venue.

Q.E.D

Sperminator

Boston wrote: »

I saw JDR not take a hit two weeks ago at the local airsoft venue.

Q.E.D

will we take it your are making a point

Leftyflip

Sperminator wrote: »

will we take it your are making a point

We could equally call it trolling...

ravydavygravy

Agree with earlier posters - name and shame (in any subject) is a legal minefield, and not very clever with no hard evidence. Just tell the marshalls like you are supposed to, and let them deal with it.

Dave

Brabazone

A few years ago I used to be a taxi driver. While doing this, if I ever had a problem with a customer I would share this information with all the taxi drivers in the area. It would be agreed by all that these people would not be carried in any cab by any of the cab company's.

All I am say is that if a person or persons are repeatable caught cheating by a marshal then they should some way of the information being shared with other sites so these people cant move form one site to the next ruining it for everyone.

gerrowadat

Brabazone is exactly right.

Do people honestly believe that blatant cheaters aren't well-known by site owners?

I know I've personally seen site owners both take and receive calls about groups of lads going between sites and being turned away for hot guns, cheating, aggression. It happens. It doesn't need to be organised.

Sperminator

just one last thing to say on this subject. when i go out to airsoft i go out for fun, if i hit someone and they don't take there hit, i don't let it gat to me anymore, why should i allow them to ruin my good nature, no i just make sure that next time he feels the hit(s).

Hivemind187

*sigh*

(perhaps the mods could merge this one with the original ""name and shame" thread from last year).

Name and shame requires someone accusing someone else. Suggesting that someone is a cheat is defamation. The accuser can be sued, the site hosting the content can be sued and likely any venue implicated could be sued as well.

There is absolutely no way to police a system for naming and shaming without creating an authorative class within the airsoft culture - a kind of gestapo who would have the power to decide whether someone is or isnt actually a cheat. Frankly, the kind of people who would volunteer for that sort of job are precisely the types you wouldnt want to have them.

Bullets point was that it would be so easy to accuse anyone of anything i we were to be allowed to hide behind user names. Anonymity also robs the accused of the right to face their accuser (natural justice).

All in all, a bad idea.