Possible merger of TCD and UCD

Alex_Jones · 25-01-2010 12:08pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

You're largely right regarding the requisites for becoming a full college, but not all colleges have a royal charter.

Never said they had. The point is, that Marino and the Milltown Institute can hardly be described as "constituent colleges" given the fullest sense of the word. They are not proper colleges of the University of Dublin.

Podge_irl wrote: »

The ship has pretty much sailed on making the University of Dublin a collegiate university. It's essentially impossible at this stage.

No it's not. Particularly when people with views like yours are destined never to have the FTCD post-nominals.

Alex_Jones · 25-01-2010 12:11pm

griffdaddy wrote: »

It always makes me chuckle how Trinity students think their college is some kind of world-renowned international power-house of academia when the truth is that it's not very well known at all, anyone who's studied abroad will probably know this. Ucd isn't either though, and it's also amusing when you hear students from there (particularly commerce students) talking as if they just graduated from Harvard Business School or something. If you wanna know who the big boys of Europe are, or at least who're going to be look at organisations like LERU. These guys are basically forming their own mega-research organisation through collaboration, and the EU loves them for it. Ireland should be trying to get one of our universities in there if we want to actually have a top tier university, otherwise we'll be left even more behind than we are already.

Trinity is a top-50 institute. We also attract a lot of top-quality researchers with international experience - our salaries are very high (particularly when compared against the UK) and such people are attracted to Trinity's unique Collegiate atmosphere (albeit a deteriorating one) as well as it's reputation.

BTW, what institute educated you, mate?

Podge_irl · 25-01-2010 12:22pm

Alex_Jones wrote: »

Never said they had. The point is, that Marino and the Milltown Institute can hardly be described as "constituent colleges" given the fullest sense of the word. They are not proper colleges of the University of Dublin.

You said full incorporation for Oxbridge colleges involves the granting of a royal charter. This isn't true (though I think most of them have one).

No it's not.

Yes it is. If you're talking about the Oxbridge model then its simply not feasible. There is far more to the system then merely having some colleges. The collegiate infrastructure extends to the very core of the system. Suggestions of a "nice college for 2-300 people" under the University of Dublin would be a college in name only and have no similarities to an Oxbridge one. Each college has their own administration and teaching which fits intricately into things at the university level. Its simply not possible to change the very nature of Trinity to that degree at this stage.

Particularly when people with views like yours are destined never to have the FTCD post-nominals

I'll get over it.

griffdaddy · 25-01-2010 12:57pm

Alex_Jones wrote: »

Trinity is a top-50 institute. We also attract a lot of top-quality researchers with international experience - our salaries are very high (particularly when compared against the UK) and such people are attracted to Trinity's unique Collegiate atmosphere (albeit a deteriorating one) as well as it's reputation.

BTW, what institute educated you, mate?

UCD, Utrecht University and the University of Amsterdam. I'm not saying they're not both excellent universities, I just think they've been mismanaged a bit when it comes to focus on research, particularly in UCD where they seem hellbent on competing in industries and disciplines where they are already far behind. I'd hardly call the Collegiate atmosphere in trinity unique either.

PrinceMax · 25-01-2010 2:27pm

If this happens, does that mean there would be an end to debates with titles such as: 'This house believes that UCD is better than Trinity.' ?

I don't think this should happen anyway. Trinity is doing fine by itself. It has been increasing in the rankings every year for the past few. All it needs is more funding. I can't really see how making a bigger university makes a better university. It will probably be an excuse for the govt. to cut funding. The main problem is there are two many students in both university. We need to cut student numbers to really make a world class university.

Doug Cartel · 25-01-2010 5:48pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Oxford and Cambridge are no bigger than TCD.

They have much bigger endowments (billions of quid). Student numbers are another source of funding, so increasing the student population would be a quick route to the cash-money.

(No it's not the perfect way of doing it, but it's *a* way. It would also require some pretty ruthless restructuring that probably wouldn't fly, but like I said hypothetically a merger could be a winning idea, so it should definitely be looked at in detail.)

Podge_irl · 25-01-2010 5:57pm

Doug Cartel wrote: »

They have much bigger endowments (billions of quid). Student numbers are another source of funding, so increasing the student population would be a quick route to the cash-money.

More students means more students to cater for. Most of the lecture theatres wouldn't be big enough and there probably isn't enough staff, academic or otherwise. What student services there are at the minute are creaking under the pressure of the current student population.

If the extra numbers just come from a merger with UCD then it won't really change anything. I can't imagine it would be administratively much cheaper, if cheaper at all, to run the two colleges under the same university banner

Increasing the numbers isn't really going to solve anything. It certainly won't increase the endowment of the college in the short to medium term. Even Oxford and Cambridge are falling well behind the top American universities and unfortunately their name recognition is something TCD will never have.

Michaelrsh · 25-01-2010 8:24pm

El Siglo wrote: »

Peter Sutherland has suggested with the budget crisis of Irish universities etc... that some kind of super university should be created. Here's the article.

What do ye think? Will there be as much protest to it like there was the last time they tried this?

El Siglo, you stole this from the UCD forum.

El Siglo · 25-01-2010 8:31pm

There's only one way for universities to get money and the government by far isn't the best source. Now Trinity has industrial partners and so does UCD. If either place wants to have a chance at survival they'll join up. Why is this important, because there's some stuff TCD does better than UCD (obviously:rolleyes:), but there's other stuff UCD does that's better than TCD (believe it or not!:D).
The government might never abolish free fees, but that doesn't mean it won't severely cut funding, which it's doing anyway. Trinity and UCD, real grew big out of the Celtic Tiger years and that's where their major research reputation was founded. Regardless of how long either place was established, the last 20 years has been the best for research in both. So going in with industry and increasing research is probably the best bet to bringing in money, I wouldn't count on this government for money. However, either place individually, while they're good (credit where credit is due for the folks down in Stillorgan!), but in comparison to the top tier universities (who rake in research funing) we're nowhere near that capacity at present. Now you can argue against this and go on and on about tradition, but it all boils down to money and how much of it can be made.
Regarding an example of where the innovation alliance has worked well is the ITRAX Core Scanner. In UCD they have an ITRAX Core Scanner, it's like an x-ray for sediment cores. Now there's only 13 of these in the world and believe it or not Belfield got their hands on one and not Trinity. Now, before the research merger, if you were in Trinity, it was entirely dependent on whether you knew the UCD academics in charge of such a machine and whether something could've been worked out, it involved a lot of red tape essentially and in most cases it wasn't done unless of course it was a massive joint research venture between TCD and UCD. Now with the merger, it's easy peasy! All you have to do is contact them, give them info on what you're doing, what research, how long etc... and that's it!
Now, tell me if this can happen for such a small example, can you imagine what other stuff might be possible? Another example might be improving undergraduate education. TCD has a really good geography department and does a lot of stuff on limnology (lakes), however the UCD geography department does a lot on rivers and climatology. Now can you imagine the scope available for undergrads going to either place? Can you imagine the amount of choice that would be available and you could literally specialise in not just your subject field, but even a single branch of study, in this case geography, one could specialise entirely in physical or human. How does this not sound good? You're increasing, in this case an undergraduates degree options and giving them the chance to learn something that they're actually interested in.
Now we can go on and on about the bureaucratic challenges, at least either place isn't as bad as the HSE or FÁS. However, both places have a well established 'civil service' so you wouldn't have to create a new one to run each college, they're run as well as each other.
The student class sizes would only ever increase by the applications to each place respectively.
The fact is though we can argue and argue for and against it, but as things go, twice such a merger has been blocked. I doubt anyone's lucky for a third time.:D

El Siglo · 25-01-2010 8:32pm

Michaelrsh wrote: »

El Siglo, you stole this from the UCD forum.

I wasn't able to quote the chap in the UCD forum, my computer is acting like a bastard and every time a I open a new tab or window it crashes and even trying to get that post to work was an ordeal! Apologies!

Michaelrsh · 25-01-2010 8:41pm

El Siglo wrote: »

I wasn't able to quote the chap in the UCD forum, my computer is acting like a bastard and every time a I open a new tab or window it crashes and even trying to get that post to work was an ordeal! Apologies!

Do employers give a ****e if you have an undergraduate from UCD and then a masters from Trinity?

Alex_Jones · 25-01-2010 9:39pm

The College is bursting at the seams. It's less students we need, not more.

I think we should be aiming towards a 40:60 undergrad to postgrad ratio (with at least 75% of those postgrads persuing research degrees).

4,000 fee-paying undergrads and 6,000 fee-paying postgrads sounds about right.

Only allowing people with 550+ points to matriculate would do this place the world of good.

El Siglo · 25-01-2010 10:15pm

Michaelrsh wrote: »

Do employers give a ****e if you have an undergraduate from UCD and then a masters from Trinity?

No, they don't care at all, all employers want is experience. What's this got to do with having an undergrad and postgrad?

Podge_irl · 26-01-2010 1:46am

Alex_Jones wrote: »

Only allowing people with 550+ points to matriculate would do this place the world of good.

No, it would be unbelievably stupid.

gearoidof · 26-01-2010 10:33am

Or just make the Leaving cert harder...
But this isn't the point...

Let's just ignore radical solutions, because they won't happen, realistically.

Alex_Jones · 26-01-2010 11:57am

Podge_irl wrote: »

No, it would be unbelievably stupid.

Try apply to Oxbridge or Ivy League with less than 550 points and see how far you get.

Fad · 26-01-2010 12:16pm

Alex_Jones wrote: »

The College is bursting at the seams. It's less students we need, not more.

I think we should be aiming towards a 40:60 undergrad to postgrad ratio (with at least 75% of those postgrads persuing research degrees).

4,000 fee-paying undergrads and 6,000 fee-paying postgrads sounds about right.

Only allowing people with 550+ points to matriculate would do this place the world of good.

That implies that there would be demand for that, and the fact that the vast majority of course come in at well under 550 mean that TCD as we know it would crumble and fall because of lack of students.

In FACT only 1,383 students managed to achieve that......in 09 [url=http://www.cao.ie/index.php?page=points=Points stats here[/url]

I probably shouldn't feed him.....but anyway

And that implies that high points students want to go to TCD. The two guys who came joint 2nd in my year (580 each) both applied to UCD ahead of TCD (One for Med, which I can understand, and one for TP, which he had several reasons for, but then he decided to go live on a beach and apply for Cambridge.......he got accepted too

)

Podge_irl · 26-01-2010 12:21pm

Alex_Jones wrote: »

Try apply to Oxbridge or Ivy League with less than 550 points and see how far you get.

You do realise that in 2006 that would have amounted to 1,579 people, of whom not all would be going to Trinity obviously.

Cambridge entrance requirements wrote:

Irish Leaving Certificate
Applicants from the Republic of Ireland who are studying towards the Irish Leaving Certificate are also welcome to apply. Typical offers for the Irish Leaving Certificate vary from AAAAA to AAABB at Higher Level. For advice about suitable subject choices see course requirements.

Funny, I could have sworn AAAAA would only get you 500 points. And AAABB? They're really dredging the bottom of the barrel with that one.

I get the distinct impression you've never actually attending Oxbridge or an Ivy League university given your uninformed opinions of them.

Alex_Jones · 26-01-2010 12:29pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Funny, I could have sworn AAAAA would only get you 500 points. And AAABB? They're really dredging the bottom of the barrel with that one.

That metric is for the English applying to Irish universities. If you go in for an interview at Oxford, Cambridge, the first thing they'll ask is what happened in that exam that you only got a B in.

Podge_irl wrote: »

I get the distinct impression you've never actually attending Oxbridge or an Ivy League university given your uninformed opinions of them.

Wrong.

I get the distinct impression you'll happily accept the mediocrity as it currently exists. Some of us strive for higher things, it's just there's too many people like you around to cancel out the effort.

Podge_irl · 26-01-2010 12:37pm

Alex_Jones wrote: »

That metric is for the English applying to Irish universities. If you go in for an interview at Oxford, Cambridge, the first thing they'll ask is what happened in that exam that you only got a B in.

What? That's the requirements for Irish people applying to Cambridge with the Leaving Certificate.

Wrong.

Fine, I apologise for the inference.

I get the distinct impression you'll happily accept the mediocrity as it currently exists. Some of us strive for higher things, it's just there's too many people like you around to cancel out the effort.

No, I'm just realistic about what can actually be done. Reducing the university to 4,000 undergrads for example is both unrealistic and stupid. Where are these 6,000 quality post-grads supposed to all come from? Educating undergrads is not some kind of frivolous exercise for the university, it helps them identify potential post-grads as well as producing members of society who can ultimately return something to the university - be it monetary or through services.

Introducing a proper collegiate system at this point is also impossible.

Fad · 26-01-2010 12:46pm

Alex_Jones wrote: »

That metric is for the English applying to Irish universities. If you go in for an interview at Oxford, Cambridge, the first thing they'll ask is what happened in that exam that you only got a B in.

No, no it is not (As Podge_irl pointed out.....). Very few people take 5 alevels (If any...)

And generally people apply to UCAS before they they sit the leaving, and their interview is before any results......

El Siglo · 26-01-2010 6:39pm

To be honest the points system is bollocks, I didn't actually get the points for my course but managed to sneak in and do well out of it (got the highest first and two awards, hooray for me!:rolleyes:). I honestly think there's a bit of trolling going on.

griffdaddy · 26-01-2010 6:55pm

Points are based on demand, not quality control of applicants. The whole idea of requiring 'x' amount of points for entry is stupid and would never work. The leaving cert has very little relation to intelligence or ability to conduct research. In fact, I'd argue it hinders the development of independant research, so there would be no improvement in candidates really.

El Siglo · 26-01-2010 7:18pm

griffdaddy wrote: »

Points are based on demand, not quality control of applicants. The whole idea of requiring 'x' amount of points for entry is stupid and would never work. The leaving cert has very little relation to intelligence or ability to conduct research. In fact, I'd argue it hinders the development of independant research, so there would be no improvement in candidates really.

Yeh but we'd get plenty of drones though! Can you imagine what would happen if such ludicrous standards were put in place? You'd have a load of undergrads from the Institute or some other grind school or fee paying school making up all of the undergrad numbers, absolutely stupid idea. It's like academic incest at research level.

Boston · 27-01-2010 7:16pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

You do realise that in 2006 that would have amounted to 1,579 people, of whom not all would be going to Trinity obviously.

Funny, I could have sworn AAAAA would only get you 500 points. And AAABB? They're really dredging the bottom of the barrel with that one.

I get the distinct impression you've never actually attending Oxbridge or an Ivy League university given your uninformed opinions of them.

Fad wrote: »

That implies that there would be demand for that, and the fact that the vast majority of course come in at well under 550 mean that TCD as we know it would crumble and fall because of lack of students.

In FACT only 1,383 students managed to achieve that......in 09 [url=http://www.cao.ie/index.php?page=points=Points stats here[/url]

I probably shouldn't feed him.....but anyway

And that implies that high points students want to go to TCD. The two guys who came joint 2nd in my year (580 each) both applied to UCD ahead of TCD (One for Med, which I can understand, and one for TP, which he had several reasons for, but then he decided to go live on a beach and apply for Cambridge.......he got accepted too )

Pwned

Possible merger of TCD and UCD

Comments