Possible merger of TCD and UCD

El Siglo

Peter Sutherland has suggested with the budget crisis of Irish universities etc... that some kind of super university should be created. Here's the article.

Peter Sutherland, the chairman of Goldman Sachs who was speaking in Dublin last Friday, said Ireland can't afford seven universities if it hopes to have any world-class institutions. He said: "Surely seven is too many if we're talking about comprehensive world-class research universities with undergraduate education, postgraduate training and research. Personally I can't see how Ireland can afford this." Mr Sutherland also said that Trinity and UCD should combine to create a world-class institution. He added: "We would have a top-20 or even a top-10 player to compete in the big leagues and, if so, wouldn't that be the best thing for Ireland?"

What do ye think? Will there be as much protest to it like there was the last time they tried this?

Boston

We're already a world class university. Sounds like a bean counting accounting talking nonsense with no eye on the logics involved. Galway, UCC and Maynooth and all the same university, but at soon to be split.

electrogrimey

I assume they'd mean having UCD as a college under Dublin University. Basically, all it would change is that UCD students could say they're in Dublin University, and they'd get a better degree. If it helps with finances, I'd be up for it. Trinity would still be a better college than UCD, even if they're both in the same university.

Doug Cartel

TCD is a big fish in a small pond - and even then, not that big - and I think it's easy to forget that. Since starting here I've found it amusing the way people say "We're the 43rd best in the world, isn't that really good?" when in the place I did my MSc it was "We're in the top twenty, how can we get into the top ten?"

EDIT: BTW, what would this mean for the NUI?

Doug Cartel

Doug Cartel wrote: »

the NUI?

Who?

Doug Cartel

Dammit, I was all set with a let me google that for you link, before I checked the NUI's website and saw it's being abolished, so I guess it doesn't matter who they are/were.

phlegms

I'm sure that would work wonderfully..

electrogrimey

Doug Cartel wrote: »

TCD is a big fish in a small pond - and even then, not that big - and I think it's easy to forget that. Since starting here I've found it amusing the way people say "We're the 43rd best in the world, isn't that really good?" when in the place I did my MSc it was "We're in the top twenty, how can we get into the top ten?"

EDIT: BTW, what would this mean for the NUI?

In fairness, having a college in the top 50 in a country as small and insignificant as Ireland is pretty good. Especially considering how useless our government is.

Doug Cartel

electrogrimey wrote: »

In fairness, having a college in the top 50 in a country as small and insignificant as Ireland is pretty good. Especially considering how useless our government is.

You know what you're right. Let's all sit on our arses and talk about how great we are.

El Siglo

You should never rest on your laurels, 43rd is still 43rd and can be better.:D All that would happen is a change in the degree parchment for the UCD heads and that's it. Nothing major apart from that. Colours matches and all that would as I assume still be the same, the usual mickey mouse rivalry that exists between colleges of a university (e.g. UCL and KCL) etc... but we'd be all under the same umbrella. Can't see any major obstacles to that.

electrogrimey

Doug Cartel wrote: »

You know what you're right. Let's all sit on our arses and talk about how great we are.

Great idea, and then we can hop over to the SU election thread and complain about how shit life is.

Doug Cartel

To a certain extent these things are done to simply game the scores in these kinds of league tables, so just by nominally merging the two universities you would probably jump up a places or two.

Having taken a quick look at the sizes of the two universities and the expertise they contain, it appears to me that a true merger could produce an actual world leading organisation. Maybe top twenty, with potential for growth.

I'm not that naive though, politics and bureaucracy would be too big an obstacle. Still though, a nominal merger combined with greater skills/expertise transfer and a serious gentleman's agreement not to step on each others toes academically could produce some great results.

electrogrimey

To be honest, if you wanted to make DU a great university, you'd be better off merging colleges that are completely different to Trinity under it. UCD is more or less the same as Trinity, with perhaps not the same level of quality. Whereas, you could merge the business parts of DCU which are well respected, as Trinity isn't known for business, or merge the RIAM under DU, seeing as Trinity doesn't have any performance music courses, or merge NCAD etc.

Doug Cartel

electrogrimey wrote: »

To be honest, if you wanted to make DU a great university, you'd be better off merging colleges that are completely different to Trinity under it. UCD is more or less the same as Trinity, with perhaps not the same level of quality. Whereas, you could merge the business parts of DCU which are well respected, as Trinity isn't known for business, or merge the RIAM under DU, seeing as Trinity doesn't have any performance music courses, or merge NCAD etc.

These are some good ideas. (Though I can't imagine DCU would be too thrilled if all their strongest departments were taken away from them and given to DU.)

The major thing that merging TCD and UCD would give is sheer numbers. I think one problem with a lot of things in Ireland is that they don't have critical mass. TCD + UCD would have over 30k students and the facilities and staff needed to teach them.

That's a pretty sweet size - it allows you to start throwing your weight around on an international scale, crowding out conferences, becoming major partners in big international projects, etc. It also gives you room to start really developing some of the "prestige" subjects (e.g. esoteric branches of physics that may change our understanding of the universe, but have no immediate value to the economy.)

Boston

Doug Cartel wrote: »

These are some good ideas. (Though I can't imagine DCU would be too thrilled if all their strongest departments were taken away from them and given to DU.)

The major thing that merging TCD and UCD would give is sheer numbers. I think one problem with a lot of things in Ireland is that they don't have critical mass. TCD + UCD would have over 30k students and the facilities and staff needed to teach them.

That's a pretty sweet size - it allows you to start throwing your weight around on an international scale, crowding out conferences, becoming major partners in big international projects, etc. It also gives you room to start really developing some of the "prestige" subjects (e.g. esoteric branches of physics that may change our understanding of the universe, but have no immediate value to the economy.)

The basic flaw in your premise is the assumption that the two universities don't already work extensively together in every area that matters to sell Ireland Inc. In areas where they don't work together, their isn't much overlap or two much politics to be resolved by mergers. League tables are great and all, but that's all this would be, an exercise in getting higher up the league tables. If size really meant better education and a better university, UCD would be kicking ass. The reality is physical separation of the two colleges will always be the limiting factor.

Doug Cartel

Boston wrote: »

The basic flaw in your premise is the assumption that the two universities don't already work extensively together in every area that matters to sell Ireland Inc.

I have the occasional project meeting in Belfield, so I am aware of the existing level of cooperation.

If size really meant better education and a better university, UCD would be kicking ass.

1. It's not just a matter of size, but of critical mass.
2. It's a necessary, though not sufficient condition.

The reality is physical separation of the two colleges will always be the limiting factor.

I don't understand this statement. Are you saying that they will always be separate, and that's how it is, or are you saying that because the two campuses are separate, the colleges will remain separate?

RexMundi

Doug Cartel wrote: »

1. It's not just a matter of size, but of critical mass.
2. It's a necessary, though not sufficient condition.

!?!?!?!

Especially point one...

Alex_Jones

Great. Dilute the name of the University of Dublin to satisfy the needs of a bunch of bean counters who have no appreciation as to how universities work and have never submitted a journal article in their lives.

This is the problem with a reliance on state funding. But this war will be lost - those Fellows who put their name to the Universities Act 2000 are to blame for this mess.

Boston

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I have the occasional project meeting in Belfield, so I am aware of the existing level of cooperation.

Doubtful. I'd imagine few people have a full grapes of it. Point is, they work together where possible. This wouldn't be improved by bringing both colleges into the one organisation. I'm sure some departments work more closely with other unversities then they do other trinity departments.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

]
1. It's not just a matter of size, but of critical mass.
2. It's a necessary, though not sufficient condition.

Sorry, talking in terms of logical predicates in order to demonstrate how smart you are fails to impress me. I know the distinction between size and critical mass. You assumption is that neither university has the critical mass needed, my hypothesis is that both universities have the necessary critical mass and any enlargement would provide only minimal benefits of scale while directly increasing the levels of bureaucracy. Big isn't always beautiful. A big slow lumbering monolithic monster would be bad. Mkay.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

]
I don't understand this statement. Are you saying that they will always be separate, and that's how it is, or are you saying that because the two campuses are separate, the colleges will remain separate?

The inclusion of the word physical should have been a clue to the context in which I speak. Proximity is an important factor in facilitating collaboration. Look at NUI as an example.

Alex_Jones

So how many half-time administrators and dead-wood academics (some of whom haven't published in 5+ years) will lose their jobs in this "merger"? None: because you can't fire people with tenureship no matter how fat and parasitical they have become.

Nowadays, the College would sooner let a post-doc who has published 30 papers in 3 years go than have him stay on and therefore have to give him a permanent position (by virtue of the 3 year rule).

Doug Cartel

RexMundi wrote: »

!?!?!?!

Especially point one...

Most of the Universities in the top 20 either have 25k+ students or are part of some larger organisation (eg ICL is in the Russel Group). This gives them access to much more resources than we have. Now the thing is if you don't have the resources to compete with the big boys, you don't have them. Most international projects require some kind of monetary contribution to enter, and if you don't have the cash, you don't get in. It doesn't matter if you could almost afford it.

As for necessary but not sufficient: Being a big institution gives you access to resources that you can use to go places, but that doesn't mean success is guaranteed.

Doug Cartel

Boston, I already said that politics and bureaucracy would prevent this from working properly. I'm just saying that hypothetically it's not a bad idea. I'm trying to find the endowment TCD has access to, but I'm turning up blanks. I would guess it's quite a bit short of the world class institutes. A merger could potentially push our resources up by a huge amount. (Yes I am aware that UCD are in quite a bit of debt at the moment.)

As to the using logical predicates, you're not supposed to be impressed. I just use that kind of stuff because I'm a maths guy not a writer. Unless I put a lot of effort into it, my prose is pretty bad and easily misunderstood. This just makes it easier for everyone.



The distance between TCD and Belfield wouldn't be a problem btw. I used to Work in Edinburgh and they have one main campus in the city centre, the other main one is on the edge of the city, and they have plenty of satellite campuses even further apart.

Alex_Jones

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Boston, I already said that politics and bureaucracy would prevent this from working properly. I'm just saying that hypothetically it's not a bad idea. I'm trying to find the endowment TCD has access to, but I'm turning up blanks. I would guess it's quite a bit short of the world class institutes. A merger could potentially push our resources up by a huge amount. (Yes I am aware that UCD are in quite a bit of debt at the moment.)

As to the using logical predicates, you're not supposed to be impressed. I just use that kind of stuff because I'm a maths guy not a writer. Unless I put a lot of effort into it, my prose is pretty bad and easily misunderstood. This just makes it easier for everyone.



The distance between TCD and Belfield wouldn't be a problem btw. I used to Work in Edinburgh and they have one main campus in the city centre, the other main one is on the edge of the city, and they have plenty of satellite campuses even further apart.

The Fellows would sooner be martyrs than allow UCDD get their hands on the College endowment. Thank God for conservative election proceedures to Fellowship which will stand firm through the coming storms.

Boston

Doug Cartel wrote: »

The distance between TCD and Belfield wouldn't be a problem btw. I used to Work in Edinburgh and they have one main campus in the city centre, the other main one is on the edge of the city, and they have plenty of satellite campuses even further apart.

So does Trinity, the fact your unaware of them is the root problem.

Alex_Jones

Boston wrote: »

So does Trinity, the fact your unaware of them is the root problem.

They're not proper colleges in that they haven't been fully incorporated into the University of Dublin. In Oxbridge, full incorporation involves the granting of a royal charter and this process takes decades. (the College must also demonstrate that they are financially independent for a period of at least 10 years before the university will even consider allowing them be a constituent college).

Didn't the Fellow (I forget his name) who went up against Heggo in the last Provost elections want to build a new college where the Trinity enterprise centre currently is? It's a pity he didn't get elected. There could be a lovely little college (for perhaps 200 or 300 students) down there.

Doug Cartel

Boston wrote: »

So does Trinity, the fact your unaware of them is the root problem.

So what's the problem with the distance again?

Alex_Jones

UCD should fock off. Get your own house in order before trying to leech off Trinity.

Doug Cartel

Alex_Jones wrote: »

UCD should fock off. Get your own house in order before trying to leech off Trinity.

Ha, ha. This is actually quite true. If a merger were done just to fix their deficit, it would be a pretty big disaster.

Alex_Jones

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Ha, ha. This is actually quite true. If a merger were done just to fix their deficit, it would be a pretty big disaster.

This is about a lot more than just a deficit.

Boston

Doug Cartel wrote: »

So what's the problem with the distance again?

Read up.

Alex_Jones wrote: »

They're not proper colleges in that they haven't been fully incorporated into the University of Dublin. In Oxbridge, full incorporation involves the granting of a royal charter and this process takes decades. (the College must also demonstrate that they are financially independent for a period of at least 10 years before the university will even consider allowing them be a constituent college).

They are largely separate entities with little interaction with the "university". Like little forgotten sheep.

El Siglo

All any merger would produce is that the UCD crowd would have their degree parchments from the University of Dublin. Next to postgraduate research collaboration, I can scarcely see any change in the status quo. It was all well and good back in the hey day of sectarianism and bullshit rivalry to object to such a merger. The fact is if both places want to actually have a snowballs chance of getting up the league tables and attracting the ever elusive big research grants then they're going to have to go in with each other.
This distance argument is absolute rubbish! What's the distance, four miles? And that's reason enough to oppose a merger? Ridiculous so it is. The fact is, both places are on the track to a merger anyway, ever since the innovation partnership thing of last March. We're going to Belfield to do research and they're coming into town to do research.
Regarding bureaucracy, well I think it's fair enough to say that both places are as bad as one another and nothing will ever change there, but at least us or Belfield are not as bad as some of our continental European partners. They're can only be benefits made from such a merger, really it boils down to research potential and in fairness both places joining up formally would be pretty damn impressive.
On the college endowment, I doubt Brady will have the chance and I definitely doubt the fellows or Hegarty will give him the chance to get his paws on it, UCD might be in debt but so are a lot of other places. Honestly, some of this thread sounds like children arguing over sweets!:D

Alex_Jones

Boston wrote: »

They are largely separate entities with little interaction with the "university". Like little forgotten sheep.

Yeah, like King's, Cambridge and Merton, Oxford... "forgotten sheep"

Alex_Jones

You'd feel a bit sorry for the poor UCDD'ites. It's the next phase in their ongoing identity crisis.

They spend millions on "re-branding" the university (whatever that means), yet they still maintain the proper coat of arms for emblazoning on their degree parchments. Now that some bright-spark in government has decided to simply "disband" the NUI, it leaves UCD in a bit of a mess in terms of historical continuity.

Personally, I think they should rename "UCD" Newman College and get the Chief Herald of Ireland to grant them a new coat of arms.

Red_Marauder

Back in the first half of the 20th century Trinity and UCD shared what was then the Veterinary College of Ireland in Ballsbridge. For every subject there were the Trinity lecturers for Trinity students, and UCD lecturers for the UCD students running the courses side by side, too competitive to collaborate and too self important to consult each other in college clinics.

Is that not exactly the kind of disaster this move would end up with - Intense competition for funding and a huge beauraucratic mess except on an enormous scale?

El Siglo

In fairness UCD is only what, €13 million in the red, I'd hardly call this crippling debt given the money one academic managed to bring in with one grant alone. Apart from Brady sacking some staff, bringing in short term contracts, abandoning the "gateway" architecture project then I seriously doubt anyone in Trinity should be worried about its financial endowment going to Belfield in any merger situation.

Alex_Jones

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Back in the first half of the 20th century Trinity and UCD shared what was then the Veterinary College of Ireland in Ballsbridge. For every subject there were the Trinity lecturers for Trinity students, and UCD lecturers for the UCD students running the courses side by side, too competitive to collaborate and too self important to consult each other in college clinics.

Is that not exactly the kind of disaster this move would end up with - Intense competition for funding and a huge beauraucratic mess except on an enormous scale?

The problem is that the idiots who are making these decisions are not academics, they're bean counters/career politicians. Their life-span is on the order of 5 to 10 years. Trinity has been around for 400 years - and that has not come about by accident.

It's our College, not the State's. The Fellows will decide what's best for Trinity.

El Siglo

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Back in the first half of the 20th century Trinity and UCD shared what was then the Veterinary College of Ireland in Ballsbridge. For every subject there were the Trinity lecturers for Trinity students, and UCD lecturers for the UCD students running the courses side by side, too competitive to collaborate and too self important to consult each other in college clinics.

Is that not exactly the kind of disaster this move would end up with - Intense competition for funding and a huge beauraucratic mess except on an enormous scale?

Yeh but you have to remember the massive sectarianism and historical rivalry on both sides that existed then, I mean for feck sake if you were RC and wanted to go to Trinity you need a dispensation from the bishop up until 1970. If both places can cooperate on research and carry that out well, wouldn't a merger not just formalise this? I'm probably wrong and it could go horribly, but it could work well. The fact is you wont know till its tried.

Doug Cartel

El Siglo wrote: »

In fairness UCD is only what, €13 million in the red, I'd hardly call this crippling debt given the money one academic managed to bring in with one grant alone. Apart from Brady sacking some staff, bringing in short term contracts, abandoning the "gateway" architecture project then I seriously doubt anyone in Trinity should be worried about its financial endowment going to Belfield in any merger situation.

€13M is nothing, and if you run at a surplus you get less money next year. Back in my last job we had guys working on data-sets that would have cost the university several million in project buy-in money. €13M just means they bought in to one or two too many things this year.

I would object to any merger being used to cover up deeper down money flow problems though. Look at what happened with the PPARC/CCLRC merger in the UK a few years ago to see where that gets you.

Alex_Jones

El Siglo wrote: »

The fact is you wont know till its tried.

Trinity is not volunteering for experiments thank you very much. Especially experiments that put it's reputation at risk.

El Siglo

Alex_Jones wrote: »

The problem is that the idiots who are making these decisions are not academics, they're bean counters/career politicians. Their life-span is on the order of 5 to 10 years. Trinity has been around for 400 years - and that has not come about by accident.

True, they are idiots but those are the only people that go into politics in the first place.:D

It's our College, not the State's. The Fellows will decide what's best for Trinity.

Listen, it doesn't matter who owns the place. But when the state pours money into a university it expects something in return. Trinity might have been around a lot longer than this state, but it's this state that pays the undergrad fees and pours money through the SFI, IRCHSS, IRCSET, EPA etc... then you can be sure that they'll have a voice in how the place is run. I don't like it as much as anyone else but that's the situation we're in.

Red_Marauder

El Siglo wrote: »

Yeh but you have to remember the massive sectarianism and historical rivalry on both sides that existed then, I mean for feck sake if you were RC and wanted to go to Trinity you need a dispensation from the bishop up until 1970. If both places can cooperate on research and carry that out well, wouldn't a merger not just formalise this? I'm probably wrong and it could go horribly, but it could work well. The fact is you wont know till its tried.

It wasn't the relic of sectarianism, students themselves seem to have enjoyed one another's company. It was people trying to be efficient by sharing facilities, in the most obtuse way possible.
I'm afraid that's what this would turn into. Imagine two medical deans, two engineering deans, and two science deans all trying to out-do the other for funding or facilities or trying to pawn academics, I think it would all get pretty nasty and not very collaborative at all, to be honest.

Having had a lot of contact with the administration people running UCD recently, and their Kremlin-style bureaucracy, I shudder to think how much worse it would be if you combined it with its sister administration. You'd end up with some incestuous, mentally defective monster. with a tail.

Doug Cartel

El Siglo wrote: »

The fact is you wont know till its tried.

Woops, I meant to address this in my last post. That sounds a bit gung-ho for my liking. I don't think this is something to be rushed into, but it's worth a serious look.

El Siglo

Doug Cartel wrote: »

€13M is nothing, and if you run at a surplus you get less money next year. Back in my last job we had guys working on data-sets that would have cost the university several million in project buy-in money. €13M just means they bought in to one or two too many things this year.

I would object to any merger being used to cover up deeper down money flow problems though. Look at what happened with the PPARC/CCLRC merger in the UK a few years ago to see where that gets you.

+1 on this!:D
I wouldn't like it either if it was €50 million+ of debt, but come on €13 million is nothing in university terms. For God's sake Manchester United is £400 million in debt and it's still running, and in fairness a football club like them would have even higher running costs. Damn you Berbatov, lazy fecker!:D

I would nearly say that this is a thread fail because all the argument is coming down to is posterity, bullshit history and 'my college is better than your college' mentality. Well here's the scoop folks, there's nothing after college right now, employment is fucked, people are back emigrating again. Eventually the state will not be able to sub the colleges anymore. Now we can all sit around with our thumbs up are back side, swords by our side with a glass of red wine and piss and moan endlessly about how tradition is tradition and that's it. Or we can take the offensive and give our graduates (from both colleges) a fighting chance in the work place. At the end of the day a degree from the TCD or UCD means all the same thing when you're in a dole queue, nothing.

Alex_Jones

El Siglo wrote: »

Listen, it doesn't matter who owns the place. But when the state pours money into a university it expects something in return. Trinity might have been around a lot longer than this state, but it's this state that pays the undergrad fees and pours money through the SFI, IRCHSS, IRCSET, EPA etc... then you can be sure that they'll have a voice in how the place is run. I don't like it as much as anyone else but that's the situation we're in.

If Trinity has to bring back fees, then so be it. Might go some way to addressing the flippant undergraduate culture that currently exists. It would also put an end to a large part of the State interference in what ultimately is an academic institution (i.e. serving the needs of the economy is not our primary aim). Maybe the State should create a top-50 institution of their own to educate €30k a year drones to fill positions in multinationals? I can just imagine FF in charge of such an initiative: they'd fill up the board with their mates, who in turn sign cheques for their mates' companies, just as they do at the Institutes of Technologies up and down the country.

Alex_Jones

El Siglo wrote: »

I would nearly say that this is a thread fail because all the argument is coming down to is posterity, bullshit history and 'my college is better than your college' mentality. Well here's the scoop folks, there's nothing after college right now, employment is fucked, people are back emigrating again. Eventually the state will not be able to sub the colleges anymore. Now we can all sit around with our thumbs up are back side, swords by our side with a glass of red wine and piss and moan endlessly about how tradition is tradition and that's it. Or we can take the offensive and give our graduates (from both colleges) a fighting chance in the work place. At the end of the day a degree from the TCD or UCD means all the same thing when you're in a dole queue, nothing.

This is not the first time Trinity College, Dublin has been through a recession.

El Siglo

Red_Marauder wrote: »

It wasn't the relic of sectarianism, students themselves seem to have enjoyed one another's company. It was people trying to be efficient by sharing facilities, in the most obtuse way possible.
I'm afraid that's what this would turn into. Imagine two medical deans, two engineering deans, and two science deans all trying to out-do the other for funding or facilities or trying to pawn academics, I think it would all get pretty nasty and not very collaborative at all, to be honest.

Apologies for jumping to that conclusion. You make a good point there, but you have to remember this was at a time when the NUI was in charge of UCD. The NUI is gone, UCD is a free agent, I would say it would be more amenable if given the chance to join up with Trinity. As for having two medical deans etc... well good old fashioned Irish bureaucracy and cronyism will solve that problem for us!;) I'd say that if the two places were to join up a number of these problems of staffing etc... could be hammered out and in the spirit of cost cutting I can safely say a number of academics from both places will be taking their pensions if given the chance.

Having had a lot of contact with the administration people running UCD recently, and their Kremlin-style bureaucracy, I shudder to think how much worse it would be if you combined it with its sister administration. You'd end up with some incestuous, mentally defective monster. with a tail.

I could have said the same thing about the Student Records office! It's like something out of Gorky Park!:D Awful place, they manage to make you feel like shit no matter what you go in for!

Alex_Jones

El Siglo wrote: »

Apologies for jumping to that conclusion. You make a good point there, but you have to remember this was at a time when the NUI was in charge of UCD. The NUI is gone, UCD is a free agent, I would say it would be more amenable if given the chance to join up with Trinity. As for having two medical deans etc... well good old fashioned Irish bureaucracy and cronyism will solve that problem for us!;) I'd say that if the two places were to join up a number of these problems of staffing etc... could be hammered out and in the spirit of cost cutting I can safely say a number of academics from both places will be taking their pensions if given the chance.

UCDD's identity crisis is your problem, not Trinity's.

El Siglo

Alex_Jones wrote: »

This is not the first time Trinity College, Dublin has been through a recession.

No, and it wont be last time either, but at least it would be nice that after your undergrad or postgrad that your college actually gave a shit about you and tried to give you a chance at gaining employment. Not every student goes to college to become the next Russell or Derrida, some go to college believe it or not to gain a set of qualifications so that they can be productive members of society and contribute to the tax base. Even some TCD students believe it or not, go to Trinity for this very same reason!;)

El Siglo

Alex_Jones wrote: »

UCDD's identity crisis is your problem, not Trinity's.

It's not my problem, I don't go to UCD. Sounds like your doing a spot of trolling to be honest.

Alex_Jones

El Siglo wrote: »

No, and it wont be last time either, but at least it would be nice that after your undergrad or postgrad that your college actually gave a shit about you and tried to give you a chance at gaining employment. Not every student goes to college to become the next Russell or Derrida, some go to college believe it or not to gain a set of qualifications so that they can be productive members of society and contribute to the tax base.

Trinity aspires to produce high quality academics, not high quality employees. High quality Trinity graduates who make good employees are a by-products of a much bigger agenda.

If you want to make money: my advice is to go and learn how to sell stuff. No university can teach you sales. In America, it's norm rather than the exception for a company's top sales guy to make more than the company president.

Boston

Alex_Jones wrote: »

Yeah, like King's, Cambridge and Merton, Oxford... "forgotten sheep"

They're not trinity campus satellites, your point is null.