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N2 - Slane Bypass [planning decision pending]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    You need to get the height and approach geometry spot on in Slane.

    I suggest the R168 becomes N51 instead.

    The N51 is there to serve major towns along the route and thus connect to the N52 in which links the North east to the south and Midlands. The N51 needs to be upgraded and not downgraded. Especially since the N52 from Birr to Mullingar is of a high standard now. Navan itself has a partial N51 bypass now. If any roads need proper upgrade and focus now it would be the N52 and N51. Navan and Drogheda are very large towns and the N51 itself is very under spec.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Aquarius34 wrote: »
    The N51 needs to be upgraded and not downgraded. Especially since the N52 from Birr to Mullingar is of a high standard now.

    Navan and Drogheda are very large towns and the N51 itself is very under spec.

    Eh , have you read ANY of this thread at all.????? :(

    The N51 east of Slane CANNOT be upgraded. It has to be moved north first.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭Aquarius34


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Eh , have you read ANY of this thread at all.????? :(

    The N51 east of Slane CANNOT be upgraded. It has to be moved north first.

    A new offline section can be built, yes, whatever. You seem to be going off on a tangent here.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    If you're not a campaigner, I'm a teapot.

    Pity you've convinced yourself that you're not; we might not be suffering the same circular arguments if you could realise.

    You are fundamentally opposed to this bypass for some unknown and are cloaking it in anything going.

    If I'm a campaigner you are too. If posting on boards somehow counts as being a campaigner there's a hell of a lot of campaigners out there.

    A broken record also springs to mind. Honestly, can you not grow up and give up your non-stop polarised nonsense, as well as your consistent attacking of posters rather than the point?


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,719 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    A broken record also springs to mind.

    Indeed, you continually trying to drag back to an unworkable HGV ban you seem obsessed with.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    HGV in NRA planning terms includes fairly small trucks and buses...not just Artics and Lowloaders dragging 40 ton Caterpillars behind etc. I don't think you can ban the lot of them from Slane TBH.

    http://www.nra.ie/RepositoryforPublicationsInfo/file,17943,en.pdf

    NRA Final Report National Roads Traffic Management Study 2010

    In identifying the importance of national roads to freight movement, it is useful to examine the
    proportion of freight vehicles using key roads as a fun
    ction of total traffic movement. Figure 3-6
    below highlights the proportion of HGVs on the nation
    al network in 2006. HGVs are defined as
    goods vehicles with three or more axles (OGV1 and OGV2)
    .

    As illustrated, a number of interurban routes display t
    ypical values of 10-15% HGVs. It is clear,
    however, that routes on the approach to Dublin exper
    ience the highest proportion of HGVs, with a
    large proportion of those routes experiencing between 1
    5-30% HGVs such as the M1, N2, M4,
    M7, M8, N9 and N81. The dominance of HGVs on Dublin r
    outes reflects the importance of Dublin
    Port in handling 50% of all Ireland’s imports and exp
    orts and two thirds of containerised trade to
    and from Ireland. Trade levels through the Port
    reached a record high of almost 31 million tonnes

    Furthermore there is a sort of centre of activity.
    Analysis of HGV activity highlights a high proportion o
    f HGV’s on the National Secondary Road
    Network connecting the Midlands with the North East and
    Northern Ireland via Monaghan, and
    also from Dundalk to Northern Ireland via Monaghan.
    This suggests that Monaghan is located in
    a strategically important ‘crossroads’ on the National
    Road Network

    Sadly Monaghan is on the wrong side of Slane from Dublin Port but luckily Monaghan is not a World Heritage Site so why not move Monaghan???? Simples! :D

    Anyway I


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »

    Indeed, you continually trying to drag back to an unworkable HGV ban you seem obsessed with.

    It takes two to tango, so there's more than one broken record playing here. I've looked to agree to disagree but clearly more headstrong poster can't even accept that.

    The "unworkable" idea is just one viewpoint. It's not a proven fact and it's not indisputable. But people confusing facts and views is common place so your apprent mistake is forgivenable.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    To be honest the selective targeting of the N2 and leaving out the need to sort the N51 from West of Slane to Drogheda as well ( and for which road a HGV ban was not proposed ...only for the bridge)...strikes me as bad and egregiously selective planning anyway.

    Banning North south traffic while leaving west east traffic gnashing and thundering through solves nothing really. Planning a partial bypass while ignoring the need for a wider solution to both N road axes through Slane and east of it is equally bad planning.

    Starting a full Bypass of Slane with the north south axis first is not bad planning as long as one admits it is a partial solution only and cannot fully deliver absent the rerouting of the N51 as well.

    The N51 is the ONLY major road in Ireland that runs THROUGH a World Heritage Site...to be joined soon by the N5 perhaps. Naturally once something is inside the site that changes everything in planning terms and so it should. But it hasn't in Slane and the anti message has constantly been that the people of Slane are somehow wrong in wishing to live peacefully and safely in their own homes.

    They have that right and only fully bypassing Slane for all N Roads will deliver that to them. The only alternative really is to fully upgrade the N52 including an N52 Ardee bypass and send the trucks thataway as well as on the M1 and M3.

    By far the most costly element would be upgrading the N52 from a few miles north of Mullingar to north of Ardee ( and possibly the N33 to 2+2 as well) ...that and many more will die and be injured in Slane before one finishes even an Ardee bypass for the N52.

    But were one to do so one could contemplate a more rigid HGV ban in Slane along with a permissive tagging regime for the remainder.


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Slane Resident


    I'm really interested to find out how these rigid HGV bans or complete regional bans are going to work. Not being argumentative, maybe I'm just not seeing something that others are. I don't see how blocking HGVs from the entire region will work - not for through-travel, deliveries, or the indigenous industries.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    First of all I dont think a HGV ban can work absent a bypass on the dangerous N2 side and then a HGV ban can't work absent at least a partial N51 Bypass either...seeing as the N51 actually goes through a World Heritage site....unlike either the old N2 or the N2 Bypass.

    Then the fact remains that Slane is between Navan and the nearest A and E unit so traffic will still use Slane itself ...often travelling fast even if there is a HGV ban unless there is a complete bypass of the N51 as well.

    Slane is on the main road betwen Drogheda and the Midlands/West so that traffic should be given an alternative route before full bans are put in place anyway. The problem with that is that the logical alternative route ( N52 Ardee - Mullingar) is another diabolical road that needs upgrading from south of Delvin to north of Ardee, each and every inch of it save for the Kells Bypass. That will take years, sure it took 10 years to do the Mullingar - Tullamore section of that road including bypassing the pair of them

    Consequently the only short term relief I can see,and of any real use, is bypass Slane N2 as proposed and also N51 west and send the N51 HGV traffic north and east to the M1 seeing as the N51 east to Drogheda cannot be upgraded unless you drop it into a cut and cover tunnel and cover it with clay or something.

    What I would do is regularly block the traffic lights in every direction on fridays until it makes the national media and get some proper attention on yourselves instead of letting the heritage lot get all the headlines in the Times making ye out to be a pack of philistines for asking for a bypass. If there is an election on at the same time ...all the better. :D

    Have one of those Enda Kenny specials, a 5 point plan. ready for the meeja. No need to go to Dublin when you can make the point at the traffic lights in the middle of Slane. :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1 Phoenix008


    Hi all,
    What do you think was the role of Dr Comer's heritage impact assessment in the oral hearing and the final outcome of the case?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    I'm really interested to find out how these rigid HGV bans or complete regional bans are going to work. Not being argumentative, maybe I'm just not seeing something that others are. I don't see how blocking HGVs from the entire region will work - not for through-travel, deliveries, or the indigenous industries.

    What rigid or regional HGV bans are you talking about? Where are these suggestions?

    It seems we have yet more shadow boxing!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    monument wrote: »
    What rigid or regional HGV bans are you talking about? Where are these suggestions?

    It seems we have yet more shadow boxing!

    If you read the NRA study posted within 10 posts of yours you may realise that Slane is of systemic national importance along with its hinterland all the way up to Emyvale on the Tyrone border and west to Delvin in Westmeath.

    A spot ban on HGVs in Slane cannot be done in isolation and absent a Regulatory Impact Study first. It is cheaper, simpler and less disruptive overall to proceed with bypassing.

    Nor does a solution to the N2 (in isolation) solve the issues of HGVs thundering daily THROUGH a world heritage site along the N51 not that it will contribute to same.

    Not shadow boxing, just quite a large scale problem and of systemic national importance so.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    We seem to be losing sight of the -- correct -- idea that the N2 at Slane is the real problem area...
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    If you read the NRA study posted within 10 posts of yours you may realise that Slane is of systemic national importance along with its hinterland all the way up to Emyvale on the Tyrone border and west to Delvin in Westmeath.

    Ok, but nobody is suggesting closing down Slane so I'm not sure what your point is.

    The N2 on the other hand seems to have lost a lot of its national importance with the building of the M1 and M3. If you want to think systemically you don't put too much importance on a route that goes parrall to two close by motorways - you make links off and between the motorways.

    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    A spot ban on HGVs in Slane cannot be done in isolation and absent a Regulatory Impact Study first. It is cheaper, simpler and less disruptive overall to proceed with bypassing.

    A bypass is cheaper than a HGV ban without one?! Pull the other leg.

    As for a Regulatory Impact Study... Dublin's ban area even with the Port Tunnell is wider.

    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Nor does a solution to the N2 (in isolation) solve the issues of HGVs thundering daily THROUGH a world heritage site along the N51 not that it will contribute to same.

    Current traffic traveling in a world heritage area is low down my list compared to a safety-critical issue.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    monument wrote: »
    We seem to be losing sight of the -- correct -- idea that the N2 at Slane is the real problem area...

    It is. However banning HGVs ( 3 axle jobbies) wont stop cars and vans and buses from crashing on the hill. You cannot ban the hills down to the old bridge. So what is a HGV ban supposed to fix anyway. It cannot obviate the need for a bypass on safety grounds to my mind. ????

    I am in favour of blanket banning super heavies but not buses vans delivery type trucks etc.
    The N2 on the other hand seems to have lost a lot of its national importance with the building of the M1 and M3. If you want to think systemically you don't put too much importance on a route that goes parrall to two close by motorways - you make links off and between the motorways.

    Ever heard of the N51 or N52 then??? More importantly have you driven either or both ?? Slane has two national roads.

    HGV bans are cheap, they don't necessarily fix anything in this case as HGVs will still travel east west on the N51...the intention should be to take all heavies out of Slane and the section east of there. What to do about 3 axle tourist buses?...sure ban them too. BAN THEM ALL!!! :D
    As for a Regulatory Impact Study... Dublin's ban area even with the Port Tunnell is wider.

    And....emm...so what?? Only artics are banned in Dublin from what I seee, 3 axle buses USE the tunnel.
    Current traffic traveling in a world heritage area is low down my list compared to a safety-critical issue.

    Grand.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    It's definitely not grand, as anyone who has to travel alongside the Boyne near Oldbridge can tell you. There hasn't been a fatal accident there in the last few years but the Louth side of the N51 is dangerous from the junction with Oldbridge onwards to the Meath border and between Slane and the M1 there are no hard shoulders anywhere on the road.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Sponge Bob wrote: »

    It is. However banning HGVs ( 3 axle jobbies) wont stop cars and vans and buses from crashing on the hill. You cannot ban the hills down to the old bridge. So what is a HGV ban supposed to fix anyway. It cannot obviate the need for a bypass on safety grounds to my mind. ????

    It's not suposed to obviate the need for a bypass -- I'm sick of staying this.

    A HGV ban could remove most or all larger trucks which pose a larger degree of danger -- what's included and what's not would be a question of how much risk there is and how much do you want to remove.


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Ever heard of the N51 or N52 then??? More importantly have you driven either or both ?? Slane has two national roads.

    Actually it does not have two, the N51 is a national secondary route, and you know that and I don't need to explain the different you.

    But as I said, I would favour the upgrading of links off and between the M1 and M3 -- the roads you mention could form part of that.

    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    HGV bans are cheap, they don't necessarily fix anything in this case as HGVs will still travel east west on the N51...

    An issue far lower down the list than the problem of the hill and the bridge on the N2.

    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    And....emm...so what?? Only artics are banned in Dublin from what I seee, 3 axle buses USE the tunnel.

    Dublin City Council views that a wider ban would not have legal issues. Buses can be excluded.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    monument wrote: »
    An issue far lower down the list than the problem of the hill and the bridge on the N2.
    Hmmm. How much lower down? Are you basing this on the level of accidents that take place there? That is shaky ground to make such a sweeping statement.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The N51 and N52 are crap roads on an epic scale. What is forgotten is that the N52 is a top priority National Road , more so than many Primarys are.

    The N52 ( N33 at its eastern end) cross connects M1 N2 N/M3 M4 M6 and M7 and is the only feasible route around incidents on those roads.....apart from the fact that only the Birr-Mullingar section is up to standard...the rest is complete crap.

    The NRA document I linked IS a traffic study and it arrived at some conclusions, namely that Slane is slap bang in the middle of THE key national logistics cluster meaning a localised ban is no solution to anything and should if anything be considered only after a bypass is built and to encourage its use, just like the Dublin tunnel opened BEFORE the ban down there. As for that idea of moving Dublin Port to up near Drogheda. :D:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Slane Resident


    monument wrote: »
    What rigid or regional HGV bans are you talking about? Where are these suggestions?

    It seems we have yet more shadow boxing!


    My post was in response to a post which has now been deleted, which suggested rigid or regional HGV bans. I'd be grateful if you could stop accusing everyone, and particularly me, of shadow boxing. It's getting boring at this stage.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Hmmm. How much lower down? Are you basing this on the level of accidents that take place there? That is shaky ground to make such a sweeping statement.

    Funny. Safety is the/a core reason used by residents, Meath Co Co, the NRA etc for a bypass.

    When I say the same thing it becomes "shaky ground" and "sweeping statement". Wow!



    My post was in response to a post which has now been deleted, which suggested rigid or regional HGV bans. I'd be grateful if you could stop accusing everyone, and particularly me, of shadow boxing. It's getting boring at this stage.

    Ok...

    You could quote posts you're replying to it would keep thing simple and avoid all of this after real or phantom posters delete their posts. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    monument wrote: »
    Funny. Safety is the/a core reason used by residents, Meath Co Co, the NRA etc for a bypass.

    When I say the same thing it becomes "shaky ground" and "sweeping statement". Wow!
    What sort of leap of logic is that?! I'm claiming that you're quite wrong to assert the safety of the N51 because "it's not Slane". I have to say that's a very immature response also. I happen to feel that the issues on the N51 are quite serious and there is a track record of accidents along with road conditions that are seriously inadequate at a small number of locations. Now let's hear your reasons for why you think it's an issue far lower down the list.

    Also, am I correct in saying that moderators can see deleted posts in the forums they overlook?
    My post was in response to a post which has now been deleted, which suggested rigid or regional HGV bans. I'd be grateful if you could stop accusing everyone, and particularly me, of shadow boxing. It's getting boring at this stage.
    I had also brought up the idea of a regional HGV ban in a previous post, I suppose the objective would be to send trucks via the Drogheda and Navan corridors, be it on the tolled bypasses or through the town centres pending the completion of the bypass. It would certainly impact on hauliers though the extent to which a HGV ban could stand up to legal challenge is still a matter of some debate here.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Attached are the changes I would make to the region.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    What sort of leap of logic is that?! I'm claiming that you're quite wrong to assert the safety of the N51 because "it's not Slane". I have to say that's a very immature response also. I happen to feel that the issues on the N51 are quite serious and there is a track record of accidents along with road conditions that are seriously inadequate at a small number of locations. Now let's hear your reasons for why you think it's an issue far lower down the list. .

    If my logic is such a leap then why do the NRA, Meath Co Co and residents all agree that the N2 is higher up the list?

    And I don't care what you think is immature -- something isn't immature just because you don't like it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    monument wrote: »
    If my logic is such a leap then why do the NRA, Meath Co Co and residents all agree that the N2 is higher up the list?

    And I don't care what you think is immature -- something isn't immature just because you don't like it.
    The difference here is that you said it was "far lower down" the list of priorities. You are forgetting that I did ask you to clarify the extent to which you feel this, but this was overlooked it seems. Actually I'll correct that, I asked twice for the reason why you felt N51 safety was "far down" the list of priorities but that still hasn't been addressed.

    This>>>>
    monument wrote:
    When I say the same thing it becomes "shaky ground" and "sweeping statement". Wow!

    Is a bizarre statement because you weren't saying the "same thing", whatever that exactly referred to and more importantly the sarcasm involved was rather immature in the context of a straightforward question I asked of you. I don't think my liking of it or otherwise comes into it - the response was a little curt and sarcastic, and failed to address the question and point I was making. By responding to my thoughts on the your response rather than the repeated question, it seems more likely in my mind that you rather do care about what I have to say on it. Though this is beside the immediate point, I only want to know why the safety concerns of the N51 (Slane to Drogheda) are a tiny matter in comparison to Slane bridge.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Attached are the changes I would make to the region.

    Very Good. I do question the need for the N51 east of the M3 at all when they can use the N52 (once upgraded) and then ban HGVs not accessing ( permit based) the area itself from a box along the Boyne and especially inside the World Heritage site.

    I'd look at a Dunshaughlin - Balbriggan M1 M2 M3 interceptor N51 instead, airport traffic a consideration too.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    The difference here is that you said it was "far lower down" the list of priorities. You are forgetting that I did ask you to clarify the extent to which you feel this, but this was overlooked it seems. Actually I'll correct that, I asked twice for the reason why you felt N51 safety was "far down" the list of priorities but that still hasn't been addressed.

    This>>>>

    Is a bizarre statement because you weren't saying the "same thing", whatever that exactly referred to and more importantly the sarcasm involved was rather immature in the context of a straightforward question I asked of you. I don't think my liking of it or otherwise comes into it - the response was a little curt and sarcastic, and failed to address the question and point I was making. By responding to my thoughts on the your response rather than the repeated question, it seems more likely in my mind that you rather do care about what I have to say on it. Though this is beside the immediate point, I only want to know why the safety concerns of the N51 (Slane to Drogheda) are a tiny matter in comparison to Slane bridge.

    Generally to answer your post:

    It was not sarcastic it was disbelieve! Disbelieve that somebody reading this thread has to ask why the N2 at Slane -- with the steep hill, old narrow bridge, national road status, the amount of serious collisions on such a short bit of road and all with the village setting -- is so far above the N51 as a priority.

    These factors have been outlined by myself, other posters, and many links posted on the thread.

    Your account of bring straightforward does not tally with your use of "shaky ground" and "sweeping statement" etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    The N51 has its share of serious problems, as people who've driven on the road or lived in the area would know. The problems at Slane don't make these any less real or serious in their own right! The vicinity of Townley Hall and the woods nearby, in itself a popular amenity with locals (i.e. pedestrians) runs literally alongside the N51 for about 500 metres. On the other side, lies the river boyne with little more than a few shrubs and a non-concreted steel barrier between the bank the road is on and the river beside it. The road itself has no hard shoulders and is less than 5 metres wide along this particularly bad stretch. Certainly in the context of sending more trucks onto the N51 with a HGV ban of Slane, there are serious problems with the N51 and the road is not fit for purpose.

    Also Sponge Bob, how can you call for the removal of one of the most stragetically important roads in the country that links the largest town and one of the largest towns in Ireland, and provides the route to the only 24 hour acute hospital in this region? For general transportation, sending every vehicle via Ardee on the N33 or indeed via Tullyallen/Collon on the equally if not more narrow R168 is an excessive detour. And there's no other acceptable route between the N2 and N3 apart from the N51 right now, as far south as Ashbourne!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I dd concede that ambulances will take the shortest route no matter what happens, that would indicate the need for an N51 bypass of Slane too...or at least that the N51 gets priority over a detrunked former N2 once that bypass is built...or both.

    But I would send trucks to Ardee and onto an upgraded N52 longer term.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I dd concede that ambulances will take the shortest route no matter what happens, that would indicate the need for an N51 bypass of Slane too...or at least that the N51 gets priority over a detrunked former N2 once that bypass is built...or both.

    But I would send trucks to Ardee and onto an upgraded N52 longer term.
    I know there was the unfortunate accident recently but the N51 road through the village itself is relatively wide and spacious, with hard shoulders available almost immediately in the Navan direction. Minor safety measures or provision of better pedestrian facilities would help. The serious safety and heritage issues lie outside of Slane, particularly on the Louth/Meath border.


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