Driving without a licence

colly10

Hi, I was just wondering what sort of punishment this normally picks up in court, I can't find any examples on google (which don't include being drunk or without insurance). Would you be likely to loose your licence, does it result in a large fine?

Grindylow

How could you lose your license if you were driving without a license?

colly10

Noel2k9 wrote: »

How could you lose your license if you were driving without a license?

I mean put of the road, banned from driving, the licence had expired

Grindylow

Yeah, then you can get banned for 7/9 years I think and a fine with it AFAIK.

colly10

Noel2k9 wrote: »

Yeah, then you can get banned for 7/9 years I think and a fine with it AFAIK.

Ye wouldn't get a ban like that for driving without insurance, this is a more minor offense

Paulw

colly10 wrote: »

Ye wouldn't get a ban like that for driving without insurance, this is a more minor offense

More minor to you, or more minor in the eyes of the law? There is where there is a large distinction.

Hooch

Its a three part summons. Failure to produce there an then, fail to produce within tens days and No licence.

It depends on the area you are in. I would say approx €300 - €500 (max) and no....no ban.

colly10

Paulw wrote: »

More minor to you, or more minor in the eyes of the law? There is where there is a large distinction.

More minor in the eyes of the law, I have looked at many cases (all of which the driver had no licence or insurance). It was the insurance that they got nailed hard for. No insurance is almost guaranteeing yourself a ban and a fine of 1500-2500 euro plus a possible short jail sentence depending on your record

colly10

nice guy always wrote: »

Its a three part summons. Failure to produce there an then, fail to produce within tens days and No licence.

It depends on the area you are in. I would say approx €300 - €500 (max) and no....no ban.

Thanks, im up for a few more bits and pieces for not producing (although I had everything but licence) but the driving without a licence conviction is the one im really worried about

eagle_&_bear

colly10 wrote: »

Thanks, im up for a few more bits and pieces for not producing (although I had everything but licence) but the driving without a licence conviction is the one im really worried about

It is usual that driving without a licence will be the lead offence and the others (depending on exactly what they are) will be taken into consideration - its the usual way they are dealt with, as they are a natural consequence of the lead offence

The max fine I have seen is 750euro but, it'll really depend on other offences

jhegarty

Was the license just expired ? or something more wrong with it ?

colly10

jhegarty wrote: »

Was the license just expired ? or something more wrong with it ?

It was just expired but had been out by a few months, I was asked to produce it and didn't then got the summons for no licence and failure to produce (along with a few other more minor summonses, I know none are minor but the licence is the worst)

sdanseo

colly10 wrote: »

More minor in the eyes of the law, I have looked at many cases (all of which the driver had no licence or insurance). It was the insurance that they got nailed hard for. No insurance is almost guaranteeing yourself a ban and a fine of 1500-2500 euro plus a possible short jail sentence depending on your record

Yes but by driving without any licence at all, aren't you invalidating your insurance as well?

That's as distinct from the fact that provisional/learner drivers always held a loophole because the policy never stated what kind of licence you needed to have (a provisional licence is still a licence) and the insurers guarenteed that L-Drivers would be covered. That was a while ago now, I wonder are Learner Permit holders covered if they have nobody with them?

I reckon an expired licence should be treated fairly, depending how long it's expired...a few weeks out rather than a few years won't make any difference to your driving abilities which are what's examined after all.

colly10

sdonn wrote: »

Yes but by driving without any licence at all, aren't you invalidating your insurance as well?

No, I don't think so, my insurance T&C's state that you must hold a licence or have held a licence to be insured, id be covered on the have held

cdaly_

colly10 wrote: »

No, I don't think so, my insurance T&C's state that you must hold a licence or have held a licence to be insured, id be covered on the have held

The usual phrasing is:

"Must hold a license or, having held a license are not barred from holding such a license"

Basically, your insurance is not invalidated by an expired license.

It was just expired but had been out by a few months,

Renew your license, bring it to the court, show it to the judge along with:

"I apologise sincerely your honour. I have since renewed my driving license and will try to ensure that I keep my documents up to date in the future."

Failing to produce will get you something of a fine anyway but be sure you have the license sorted before the court...

colly10

cdaly_ wrote: »

Failing to produce will get you something of a fine anyway but be sure you have the license sorted before the court...

Thanks, any idea how long this usually takes from the time you send away. I have already made a start before the summons and sent away by post for a test (I had to to get a a test for a new licence) and i've got the confirmation of my test now.
I know it takes 10 days for your licence to get posted out, just wondering if thats 10 days or 10 working days though

jhegarty

colly10 wrote: »

Thanks, any idea how long this usually takes from the time you send away. I have already made a start before the summons and sent away by post for a test (I had to to get a a test for a new licence) and i've got the confirmation of my test now.
I know it takes 10 days for your licence to get posted out, just wondering if thats 10 days or 10 working days though

What test ?

slimjimmc

colly10 wrote: »

Thanks, any idea how long this usually takes from the time you send away. I have already made a start before the summons and sent away by post for a test (I had to to get a a test for a new licence) and i've got the confirmation of my test now.
I know it takes 10 days for your licence to get posted out, just wondering if thats 10 days or 10 working days though

By 'test' I presume you mean the driving tests (theory and practical), not a medical or eye test.

If you previously held a full licence (even if it expired or was revoked) you don't need to sit a driving test unless:
your previous licence has expired over 10yrs ago, or
you want to add a new category to your licence (e.g licence to tow a trailer), or
your previous licence was foreign and not from one of the recognised countries.

It's normal that 10 days means 10 working days so I wouldn't interpret it to mean 10 calendar days.

Jo King

cdaly_ wrote: »

The usual phrasing is:


Renew your license, bring it to the court, show it to the judge along with:

"I apologise sincerely your honour. I have since renewed my driving license and will try to ensure that I keep my documents up to date in the future."

Failing to produce will get you something of a fine anyway but be sure you have the license sorted before the court...

Judges are not addresses in Ireland as "Your Honour" except by people who have been watching too much television. According to the rules of all the courts, the correct mode of address of "Judge" or "A Bhretiheamh".
The big variable in all of the is the form of the DJ who hears the case. Best thing to do is see the prosecuting guard in advance of the court date and show all of the correct documentation. There is a chance he may strike out some or all of the charges. Also go to the local District Court and see what happens. Note the attitude of the judge. Note also which solicitors deal with the legal aid cases and how they interact with the judge. Some judges do not like lay litigants. If you are in real trouble one of the solicitors would handle it for you for a relatively modest fee.

colly10

jhegarty wrote: »

What test ?

Just a practical driving test

jhegarty

colly10 wrote: »

Just a practical driving test

So it was an expired provisional/permit ?


Did you have L plates and an another driver with you ?

passtest

IF you driving with safty in roads . you must follow the traffic rules and get driving liecense.

Merch

passtest wrote: »

IF you driving with safty in roads . you must follow the traffic rules and get driving liecense.

Huh? what?

Reloc8

In soviet russia roads drive YOU.

BUBBLES1978

hav a friend who was caught saturday with no full licensed driver in the car with her and no nct asked to produce provisional licence within the ten days had since realised she has no licence for 2 years (whoops!!!)

what does she do now and what kinda fine / ban is she looking at

eagle_&_bear

BUBBLES1978 wrote: »

hav a friend who was caught saturday with no full licensed driver in the car with her and no nct asked to produce provisional licence within the ten days had since realised she has no licence for 2 years (whoops!!!)

what does she do now and what kinda fine / ban is she looking at

It really depends on the atittude of the member of An Garda Siochana as to what charge sheets they will produce:

If the Garda follows the book:

Failure to produce a licence when required

Operating a motor vehicle without having a driving licence

Driving without being accompanied by a fully qualified driver of 3 years standing

no NCT - mandatory court appearance

Depending on whether L plates are an issue may incur further points and penalties

Technically,
Driving a motor vehicle without insurance (even though you will have paid insurance, you must hold, during the period of the insurance, a valid driving licence so you are driving without a valid insurance)

Ideally, it would be better for you to deal with the matter by the fixed penalty option; However, because you have the no NCT issue, that imposes a mandatory court appearance which is a big issue as the points are significant now. As to what fine? the District Court can impose any fine. Usually they will take the most serious offence and set a fine and then take the others into consideration.

As for Penalty Points:

Penalty Points on Court Conviction Driving without a driving licence:
2 if you deal with it by fixed penalty notice
5 if you are convicted in court

Failure to produce licence
1 if you deal with it by fixed penalty notice
3 if you are convicted in court

Provisional licence holder driving without being accompanied by and under the supervision of qualified person
1 if you deal with it by fixed penalty notice
3 if you are convicted in court

No NCT displayed
Mandatory Court Appearance and 5 points

If you are in any doubt, speak to a solicitor but do look at http://www.penaltypoints.ie/ for a list of the points.

Bare in mind, the District Court will simply hear the evidence and set a monetary fine on the day. It is upto the Local Authority/Council to impose the points on your licence. you will receive a letter about this usually 4 weeks after the court. You will need to bring any documents you have with you on the day in court. By my calculations, you're looking at the potential of 16 points so you run the risk of being barred for 3 years automatically. Despite that, the court may also order a consequential disqualification order. It would not be out of character for the District Court to impose a fine in the region of 800 - 1,200 euro for this!!!

If you're not religious... find devotion somewhere. Counsel(barrister) would also be recommended. but DO speak to a solicitor. This is very serious

robbie99

eagle_&_bear wrote: »

Technically,
Driving a motor vehicle without insurance (even though you will have paid insurance, you must hold, during the period of the insurance, a valid driving licence so you are driving without a valid insurance)

Are you sure? My insurance T&Cs contain the following as described by cdaly_ and my understanding is that this is the same for _all_ motor insurance in Ireland.

cdaly_ wrote:

The usual phrasing is:

"Must hold a license or, having held a license are not barred from holding such a license"

Basically, your insurance is not invalidated by an expired license.

eagle_&_bear wrote: »

By my calculations, you're looking at the potential of 16 points so you run the risk of being barred for 3 years automatically.

No, only 5 points. When a driver is convicted for numerous offenses, all from the same occasion, they only receive the points for one of the offenses, whichever carries the most points.

And if a driver was to reach the 12 point threshold, the ban is for 6 months, with the points that triggered the ban expiring when the ban finishes.

MagicSean

eagle_&_bear wrote: »

It really depends on the atittude of the member of An Garda Siochana as to what charge sheets they will produce:

If the Garda follows the book:

Failure to produce a licence when required

Operating a motor vehicle without having a driving licence

Driving without being accompanied by a fully qualified driver of 3 years standing

no NCT - mandatory court appearance

Depending on whether L plates are an issue may incur further points and penalties

Technically,
Driving a motor vehicle without insurance (even though you will have paid insurance, you must hold, during the period of the insurance, a valid driving licence so you are driving without a valid insurance)

Actually she is looking at more

1)Failure to produce licence
2)Failure to produce licence in 10 days
3)Failure to produce NCT in 10 days
4)Driving without valid licence
5)Driving without valid NCT cert
6)Failure to display NCT disk
7)Obtaining insurance by fraud

(Driving with no L plates or accompanying driver is not an issue as she does not have a provisional licence. She has none)

(Insurance won't be an issue as most companies insure you if you have held a licence and it has expired)

If found guilty she is looking at a sizeable fine and possibly a ban depending on her criminal history. Also five penalty points.

colly10

eagle_&_bear wrote: »

Technically,
Driving a motor vehicle without insurance (even though you will have paid insurance, you must hold, during the period of the insurance, a valid driving licence so you are driving without a valid insurance)

Thats not the case, for your insurance to be valid you must have previously held a licence in the past, you do not need to have a current licence

eagle_&_bear

colly10 wrote: »

Thats not the case, for your insurance to be valid you must have previously held a licence in the past, you do not need to have a current licence

Are you sure on this? Is it not a condition precedent of the offence that inorder to have validated insurance you must hold a valid driving licence?

I'll go check my policy but I think the holding of a licence is a condition precedent to having effective insurance at the time the alleged offences are committed. It doesnt make sure to give cover on a car when at the time you dont have a licence, notwithstanding that you may have had a licence in the past - that doesnt make seem right.

Hooch

robbie99 wrote: »

No, only 5 points. When a driver is convicted for numerous offenses, all from the same occasion, they only receive the points for one of the offenses, whichever carries the most points.

And if a driver was to reach the 12 point threshold, the ban is for 6 months, with the points that triggered the ban expiring when the ban finishes.

Correct

eagle_&_bear wrote: »

Are you sure on this? Is it not a condition precedent of the offence that inorder to have validated insurance you must hold a valid driving licence?

I'll go check my policy but I think the holding of a licence is a condition precedent to having effective insurance at the time the alleged offences are committed. It doesnt make sure to give cover on a car when at the time you dont have a licence, notwithstanding that you may have had a licence in the past - that doesnt make seem right.

No. Your insurance policy will say you must hold a licence.....however legally once you held a licence at some stage that covers you and your insurance will cover and you have fullfilled your legal obligation.

If you never held a licence then you cannot be insured.

FreudianSlippers

A lot also depends on your previous convictions for road traffic offences... the more of a collection you have, the more likely a judge is to throw the book at you, so to speak.

MagicSean

OisinT wrote: »

A lot also depends on your previous convictions for road traffic offences... the more of a collection you have, the more likely a judge is to throw the book at you, so to speak.

I'd love if they actually threw a book at someone.

jimmystewart

Greetings

My girlfriend has a similar issue to the above. She was stopped at a checkpoint yesterday with no tax or nct. The car was impounded. To top it off she can't find her license now. She is a full license holder with no previous. She is freaking right the way out. Does any have idea what sort of fines points etc she is facing? Any help appreciated.

Crasp

jimmystewart wrote: »

Greetings

My girlfriend has a similar issue to the above. She was stopped at a checkpoint yesterday with no tax or nct. The car was impounded. To top it off she can't find her license now. She is a full license holder with no previous. She is freaking right the way out. Does any have idea what sort of fines points etc she is facing? Any help appreciated.

She has 10 days to get her ass to the tax office and get a dupliucate licence to produce to the gardaí (if requested, which I guess it was or she wouldn't be panicking). She needs to go the the garda station and fill in the form for lost documents and get it stamped.


Secondly, there is a €60 fine for failure to display tax. The impound and storage costs of the car would have been explained to her at the time of impounding.

Incidentally, I think cars are only impounded if the tax has expired by more than 3 months.




No NCT is 5 points + fine, if convicted. http://rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/new_penpoints_chart_apl09.pdf




These are basic things that all drivers should know. Then again, tax/NCT/carrying your licence at all times are actual legal requirements, and she didn't do them either.

jimmystewart

Thanks Crasp -I know what you mean, she can have no complaints.

I think the tax is out since April or May and the NCT since Oct. She is planning to be first in the queue in the tax office on Monday! I would have thought its a long shot that she will get her new license within 10 days though.

The gards explained that the impounding is €125 for the first day and €35 a day after that.

Looks like the lack of NCT will mean a court appearance and a fine. How hefty is the court fine?

Crasp

jimmystewart wrote: »

Thanks Crasp -I know what you mean, she can have no complaints.

I think the tax is out since April or May and the NCT since Oct. She is planning to be first in the queue in the tax office on Monday! I would have thought its a long shot that she will get her new license within 10 days though.

The gards explained that the impounding is €125 for the first day and €35 a day after that.

Looks like the lack of NCT will mean a court appearance and a fine. How hefty is the court fine?

I wouldn't worry about the licence thing, as she actually does have a licence. She should try to get one to present within the 10 days though, it'll be one less thing to worry about.

If she doesn't produce within the 10 days, she will be summonsed and she can explain that she has a licence, lost it, and couldn't get a new one within the 10 days (but it would be wise to bring the duplicate with her to court, at least). In Cork a new licence takes about 4 minutes + however long the queuing time is (anywhere from no time to an hour).



I have no idea how much the fine is for NCT.




She'd want to pick up the car soon then, wouldn't she?

jimmystewart

Yeah big time, the sooner this is all sorted the sooner she will let me relax! Thanks for your input!

dermot_sheehan

Just in relation to the driving licence being required for insurance cover point.

European Law requires that motor insurance policies cover a driver even if they do not have a driving licence as against third party claims.
Article 13(1)(b) of the Motor Insurance Directive (2009/103/EC)
A driver without a licence would be covered against third parties regardless of what's in their insurance policy, so would not be committing an offence under s. 56 of the Road Traffic Act

Delancey

gabhain7 wrote: »

Just in relation to the driving licence being required for insurance cover point.

European Law requires that motor insurance policies cover a driver even if they do not have a driving licence as against third party claims.
Article 13(1)(b) of the Motor Insurance Directive (2009/103/EC)
A driver without a licence would be covered against third parties regardless of what's in their insurance policy, so would not be committing an offence under s. 56 of the Road Traffic Act

Fascinating - I had always presumed that no licence meant the driver was automatically uninsured regardless of whether a policy was in place or not.
Interesting to learn otherwise.

dermot_sheehan

The Road Traffic (Compulsory Insurance) Regulations SI 14/1962 specify that an approved policy under the Road Traffic Act must comply with certain conditions
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1962/en/si/0014.html

The First Schedule of those Regulations prohibit an insurance company from having any conditions limiting payout, except those listed, including at 2(f)

(f) by limiting the cover to cases where the person driving a vehicle either holds a driving licence to drive the vehicle or having held such a licence has not been disqualified for holding it,

This was the position until 1987, that an insurance company could have as a condition precedent for an insurance policy under the road traffic act a requirement that the driver hold a licence.

In 1987 though Ireland implemented the Second Motor Insurance Directive which for the first time introduced the requirement that cover applies regardless of licence status of driver.
The Road Traffic (Compulsory Insurance) (Amendment) Regulations SI 321/1987
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/en/si/0321.html

inserted a new provision at end of paragraph 2 of the first schedule in the 1962 regulations:

The conditions referred to at (e), (f) and (g) of paragraph (2) shall provide that the limitations or restrictions shall not apply as respects a claim by a person to recover moneys from the insurer under section 76 of the Act

S. 76 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 permits a person injured by the negligent use of a motor vehicle to proceed directly against the insurance company for judgement

76.—(1) Where a person (in this section referred to as the claimant) claims to be entitled to recover from the owner of a mechanically propelled vehicle or from a person (other than the owner) using a mechanically propelled vehicle (in this section referred to as the user), or has in any court of justice (in proceedings of which the vehicle insurer or vehicle guarantor hereinafter mentioned had prior notification) recovered judgment against the owner or user for, a sum (whether liquidated or unliquidated) against the liability for which the owner or user is insured by an approved policy of insurance or the payment of which by the owner or user is guaranteed by an approved guarantee, the claimant may serve by registered post, on the vehicle insurer by whom the policy was issued, or on the vehicle insurer or the vehicle guarantor by whom the guarantee was issued, a notice in writing of the claim or judgment for the sum, and upon the service of the notice such of the following provisions as are applicable shall, subject to subsection (2) of this section, have effect:

(a) the insurer shall not after service of the notice pay to the owner or user in respect of the sum any greater amount than the amount (if any) which the owner or user has actually paid to the claimant in respect of the sum;

(b) where the claimant has so recovered judgment for the sum, or after service of the notice so recovers judgment for the sum or any part thereof, the insurer or guarantor shall pay to the claimant so much of the moneys (whether damages or costs) for which judgment was or is so recovered as the insurer or guarantor has insured or guaranteed and is not otherwise paid to the claimant, and the payment shall, as against the insured or principal debtor, be a valid payment under the policy or guarantee;

(c) where the claimant has so recovered judgment for the sum, or after service of the notice so recovers judgment for the sum or any part thereof, and has not recovered from the owner or user or such insurer or guarantor the whole amount of the judgment, the claimant may apply to the court in which he recovered the judgment for leave to execute the judgment against the insurer or guarantor, and thereupon the court may, if it thinks proper, grant the application either in respect of the whole amount of the judgment or in respect of any specified part of that amount;

(d) where the claimant has not so recovered judgment for the sum, the claimant may apply to any court of competent jurisdiction in which he might institute proceedings for the recovery of the sum from the owner or user for leave to institute and prosecute those proceedings against the insurer or guarantor (as the case may be) in lieu of the owner or user, and the court, if satisfied that the owner or user is not in the State, or cannot be found or cannot be served with the process of the court, or that it is for any other reason just and equitable that the application should be granted, may grant the application, and thereupon the claimant shall be entitled to institute and prosecute those proceedings against the insurer or guarantor, and to recover therein from the insurer or guarantor any sum which he would be entitled to recover from the owner or user and the payment of which the insurer or guarantor has insured or guaranteed;

(e) the insurer or guarantor shall not, as a ground for refusing payment of moneys to the claimant or as a defence to proceedings by the claimant, rely on or plead any invalidity of the policy or guarantee arising from any fraud or any misrepresentation or false statement (whether fraudulent or innocent) to which the claimant was not a party or privy and which, if constituting a misdemeanour under this Part of this Act, was not the subject of a prosecution and conviction under the relevant section of this Act.

S. 56 (1)(a) of the Road Traffic Act 1961 (as amended) creates the offence of driving without insurance, it provides:

56.—(1) A person (in this subsection referred to as the user) shall not use in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle unless either a vehicle insurer, a vehicle guarantor or an exempted person would be liable for injury caused by the negligent use of the vehicle by him at that time or there is in force at that time either—

(a) an approved policy of insurance whereby the user or some other person who would be liable for injury caused by the negligent use of the vehicle at that time by the user, is insured against all sums without limit (save as is hereinafter otherwise provided) which the user or his personal representative or such other person or his personal representative shall become liable to pay to any person (exclusive of the excepted persons) by way of damages or costs on account of injury to person or property caused by the negligent use of the vehicle at that time by the user, or

Since a person driving without a licence in breach of their insurance policy would have a policy of insurance, and pursuant to s. 76 of the Road traffic act the insurer would be liable for damages caused by their driving, they can not be convicted of driving without insurance for breaching this condition of their insurance policy.

kevinw07

Hi, I just received a summons for (1) no insurance user
(2) driving without a license (3) failure to produce license (4) failure to produce insurance,

I'm just wondering if anybody had anything similar to this or what to expect,
Any help would be great,
Thanks.

Merch

kevinw07 wrote: »

Hi, I just received a summons for (1) no insurance user
(2) driving without a license (3) failure to produce license (4) failure to produce insurance,

I'm just wondering if anybody had anything similar to this or what to expect,
Any help would be great,
Thanks.

What were the circumstances that you were driving without the above?

No licence on you or learner permit or none at all?? and then failing to produce it later because late producing or unable to because you dont have one, and is that the same for insurance, is the car covered under someone else? or none at all

kevinw07

The car was covered under somebody else, I had no learner permit at the time but I got it a month after the date of the offence

Milk & Honey

If there was insurance on the car, you might have a chance with the insurance which is the most serious offence. There is a case going to the Supreme Court at the moment on this. I think it was mentioned before on this forum. A lot will depend on your legal team.

lovelyirish

how does a gard know if ur full license is suspended .. if its on medical grounds....(becaue u wouldnt have committed any crime for them to have a record of)... does their speed vans or cars pick it up automatically.. or would they only know if they pull u over to manually check ur license like they do with the tax, nct etc...

slimjimmc

lovelyirish wrote: »

how does a gard know if ur full license is suspended .. if its on medical grounds....(becaue u wouldnt have committed any crime for them to have a record of)... does their speed vans or cars pick it up automatically.. or would they only know if they pull u over to manually check ur license like they do with the tax, nct etc...

They have to pull you over, how else would they know its is you who is driving? Your licence is associated with the driver not the car. I guess the medical suspension would have been imposed by a licensing authority and would therefore be on a national database. However I reckon it would only become apparent to the Gardaí if they checked back with the station or you admitted to driving on a suspended licence.

notcalled4

uh oh, I'm in trouble

Ok so I got into a bit of trouble about 8 year ago (quite serious charges think maybe 2 non driving) & around the same time I was caught with no licence, insurance etc & banned for 2 year,

I didnt need the licence or anything so never bothered applying for one when the ban ran out (about 6 years ago)

And tonight I got stopped for the same offence (yes I know I was an idiot)

What is the likely punishment for a second similar conviction, fine, prison term?
Do the courts allow free legal aid for driving offences?

& I am also unemployed, does anyone know what the standard fine would be for someone unemployed or is it any different & just have to pay up?

Paulw

notcalled4 wrote: »

What is the likely punishment for a second similar conviction, fine, prison term?
Do the courts allow free legal aid for driving offences?

& I am also unemployed, does anyone know what the standard fine would be for someone unemployed or is it any different & just have to pay up?

Hopefully there is a prison term for you. You'll also be banned (again) from driving, plus a fine. Considering this is your second offence for the same charge, I doubt the judge will have any sympathy for you at all.

I don't believe the fine is any different, employed or unemployed.

notcalled4

Paulw wrote: »

Hopefully there is a prison term for you.

Hopefully there is some bus that runs over you in the near future ignorant pr1ck!

The first time was 8 years ago when I was 18!

MagicSean

notcalled4 wrote: »

Hopefully there is some bus that runs over you in the near future ignorant pr1ck!

The first time was 8 years ago when I was 18!

So? You are 26 now and did the same thing. Hardly a good excuse to say you learned nothing.

You may get a prison term if you are charge with no insurance and have a previous conviction. You may be entitled to legal aid in this instance because of this.