Decent offer refused

tevion

My fiancee made what I thought was quite a reasonable offer for a property in the Beaumount area.
The asking price is 325K and she offered 280K.
The EA told us the seller refused, although there is isnt any other bids on the property currently.
Apparantly the seller wants to get close to the asking price, which I think in the current climate wont happen, and the EA are recommending to consider anything around 300K.
Either way, her bid remains the same, while she is still hunting, but you would imagine the seller would take hand and all, given what is happening these days!

jhegarty

Perhaps the seller isn't in a rush.

Pushtrak

Could ye go up another 10? If so, say that and final offer.

mathie

Pushtrak wrote: »

Could ye go up another 10? If so, say that and final offer.

The first rule of negotiating.

Never revise your offer without the other party revising theirs.

If the vendor thinks they'll get a better offer then good luck to them,
I'd walk away and when the EA calls back (maybe it's an EA who does a little bit of work - rare I know) then the correct response would be 'My offer is now 10K less'

It's a buyers market.

tevion

Pushtrak wrote: »

Could ye go up another 10? If so, say that and final offer.

No, 280K is the max.
Not the end of the world anyway, am sure there will be someone else with a similiar property if not a better one, that will happily accept her 280K, and maybe even less hopefully!

Thanos

If you are not in a hurry, then just leave the offer there and keep looking around. They may get back to you after a few days........
If after that you do not see anything you like better try offering 5k more and say you need an answer within 2 or 3 days.

3DataModem

IME the best way to handle this is to give an expiry date for the offer.

Say "the offer of 280k stands until Friday 5pm after which we are considering other properties". Ensure the agent passes this on to the actual seller (they are obliged to pass it on). If you feel the agent is not passing on the offer write to the owners directly just helpfully informing them that you have made an offer through the agent AND THE OFFER WILL EXPIRE.

The seller/agent us trying to squeeze 20k out of you. If you think it's worth 280k then stick to your guns.

tevion

3DataModem wrote: »

IME the best way to handle this is to give an expiry date for the offer.

Say "the offer of 280k stands until Friday 5pm after which we are considering other properties". Ensure the agent passes this on to the actual seller (they are obliged to pass it on). If you feel the agent is not passing on the offer write to the owners directly just helpfully informing them that you have made an offer through the agent AND THE OFFER WILL EXPIRE.

The seller/agent us trying to squeeze 20k out of you. If you think it's worth 280k then stick to your guns.

Yeah will be sticking to the guns alright.
Not bothered either way, we're in no hurry to buy, and confident we will get the right house at the right time eventually, things are going the right way for buyers, and about time.

djk1000

Call back and put a reasonable time limit on the offer, say that the offer is off the table in 30 days. Maybe the seller is lumbered with a big mortgage and they need to sit tight until someone offers the asking price so they don't crystalise a loss.

JJ

When the wife and I were looking at houses last year, we saw a house that was somewhere around the 325k range that I really liked. Unfortunately, the wife didn't like it and I think I can see now that it wouldn't have suited us though I did like the kitchen and the big back garden. The EA (who was a typical EA) said the seller would consider offers but not much lower than the asking price.

We eventually went for another house where we put in a slightly cheeky bid at first, which was refused then upped it 10k, which was refused. We stuck to that bid and the EA (who was a nicer than average EA) was able to have a word with the seller who eventually accepted. The EA of the other house rang after that and told me the asking price for the other house went down by about 15k but I was a little delighted to tell him we already had a place.

tevion

good luck to them if they get a better offer before we find another property.
About 4 months ago a mate of mine offered 320K for a property where the asking price was 340K.
The seller refused, so he bought a different property.
The same property is now being advertised with an asking price of 310K.

Gurgle

tevion wrote: »

you would imagine the seller would take hand and all, given what is happening these days!

You can imagine whatever you like.

If the seller has decided €300k or stay here then your imagination isn't going to buy the house for €280k.

faceman

djk1000 wrote: »

Call back and put a reasonable time limit on the offer, say that the offer is off the table in 30 days. Maybe the seller is lumbered with a big mortgage and they need to sit tight until someone offers the asking price so they don't crystalise a loss.

Id agree with this. Only giving a few days for the seller to mull over isnt going to give them enough time to realise that they could be on to a good thing.

30 days sounds good. Obviously in the meantime you might find somewhere else suitable.

RobAMerc

at least the EA didn't pretend there was another offer in above yours, however he'd be a fool if he wasn't telling the vendor to seriously consider the offer.

I think some houses aren't really for sale out there its just people trying to get out before they go into negative equity. If they get an offer that makes sense to go they'll take it otherwise not.

But it would be silly of you to increase your offer - another will come up that your happy with, and remember the extra 20k your being asked to pay, after increased stamp and the interest over X number of years will be significant even if it seems small in the scheme of things.

SoupyNorman

tevion wrote: »

My fiancee made what I thought was quite a reasonable offer for a property in the Beaumount area.
The asking price is 325K and she offered 280K.
The EA told us the seller refused, although there is isnt any other bids on the property currently.
Apparantly the seller wants to get close to the asking price, which I think in the current climate wont happen, and the EA are recommending to consider anything around 300K.
Either way, her bid remains the same, while she is still hunting, but you would imagine the seller would take hand and all, given what is happening these days!

Withdraw for sure, ask yourself is this your dream home? Do you HAVE to have this house?, Is there NO other house in the area to rival it?

There are people who are 'ansey' to buy all over the place (myself included) but I cant bring myself to buy in a falling market. Not once in the last 18months have the house price decreases slowed at all, not even tapered off. 2009 saw a 30-35% fall in property prices, do you really think it's just going to stop in 2010...

Your patience will save you a fortune, putting things simply.

tevion

wont be increasing the offer, not a chance.
Its only one house, there will be many more, and I agree, the market is falling, so its better to hold off for a while anyway.

SoupyNorman

tevion wrote: »

wont be increasing the offer, not a chance.
Its only one house, there will be many more, and I agree, the market is falling, so its better to hold off for a while anyway.

Read this, really make renting seem the more attractive option.

Mr. Presentable

tevion wrote: »

wont be increasing the offer, not a chance.
Its only one house, there will be many more, and I agree, the market is falling, so its better to hold off for a while anyway.

You are correct. Note, however, the small number similar of properties available in Dublin; you may have to wait quite a while.

Da GOAT

nice article. considering renting unless low offers are accepted.

ZYX

tevion wrote: »

Yeah will be sticking to the guns alright.
Not bothered either way, we're in no hurry to buy, and confident we will get the right house at the right time eventually, things are going the right way for buyers, and about time.

Remember though that many/most sellers are in no hurry to sell either. They are selling to buy a new house either trading up or down. Many will have a limit of what they are prepared to sell for, based on the price of the property they are moving to. As that price drops they may be willing to drop the price of their own property.

robd

tevion wrote: »

My fiancee made what I thought was quite a reasonable offer for a property in the Beaumount area.
The asking price is 325K and she offered 280K.
The EA told us the seller refused, although there is isnt any other bids on the property currently.
Apparantly the seller wants to get close to the asking price, which I think in the current climate wont happen, and the EA are recommending to consider anything around 300K.
Either way, her bid remains the same, while she is still hunting, but you would imagine the seller would take hand and all, given what is happening these days!

The problem here is that your other halfs initial offer was too high. You're unlikely to have a first offer accepted no matter how bad the market is. Market physcology and past behaviour means sellers and EA's believe there's always a bit more there.

In these situations you need to offer 20k less than final offer and inch up 2-3k at a time with a few days between each offer. The few days and between each offer invests time by the vendor and as time passes they become more anxious to close deal. Make sure you don't become same. Smaller and smaller offers pyschs them into believing there is no more.

Don't think you can rescuse this particular one now I'm afraid. Seller and EA both see 20k more.

Of course there's always the possiblity that the seller is just not motivated to sell. No way of working this one I'm afraid. It's generally just a matter of making offers on a few houses till you find one who is motivated.

daltonr

tevion wrote: »

My fiancee made what I thought was quite a reasonable offer for a property in the Beaumount area.
The asking price is 325K and she offered 280K.

You thought it was reasonable, the seller didn't.

The house is worth more to them than it is to you. That's not unusual.
They're in place. Moving is a hassle. They need to get an attractive bid to make it worthwhile. They're happy to stay in the house unless they get a certain amount.

It doesn't matter if you and they are the last two people on the planet, you don't get to buy it for less than they're willing to sell it for.

If you want it, up the bid.
If you don't want to up the bid, move along.

Simples.

No big deal, there's lots more houses out there.

-Rd

stepbar

I keep saying this. What will it rent for?

As far as I'm concerned you've made a very good offer. Walk away for the sake of your own sanity.

whizzbang

Always look up www.irishpropertywatch.com before putting in a bid so you can see how long the place is on the market. The longer it has been their the more open they may be to bids.

ei.sdraob

Theres a 20% difference between prices described in latest daft report (based on asking prices) and IAVI report (based on sales prices)

so that means that houses on average in last year were selling for 20% below asking price

hope that helps

jdivision

House prices are down 50% on average. It must be some house in Beaumont if it was worth E560k a couple of years ago based on your offer. Presuming it's the standard type house in Beaumont I doubt if it's worth more than E225k to be honest OP.

Taltos

Personally I would now contact the EA and tell them the offer is off the table.
Tell them that you may be open to reconsidering the offer at a later date - and at that time I would go in with 10k less than you just went in at.

Prices are dropping.

This will do 2 things.
1 establish your credibility with the EA - next time you place an offer on another property they will be able to tell the seller - this is the max - reject it and the next offer will be less

2 keeps you in control...

mastermind2005

If i was selling, id be in no rush tbh

seamus

tevion wrote: »

good luck to them if they get a better offer before we find another property.
About 4 months ago a mate of mine offered 320K for a property where the asking price was 340K.

Plenty of stories like this about. In early 2007 we made an offer of €360k on a house that was listed at €400k. The EA turned into a complete battleaxe and had a go at us about wasting her time and that only offers of €400k or over would be considered. 6 months later and the property was listed at €350k, but we weren't interested any longer.

mathie has a good point though in that both sellers and EAs have forgotten about how to play the haggling game because it was a seller's market for so long.

JJ

whizzbang wrote: »

Always look up www.irishpropertywatch.com before putting in a bid so you can see how long the place is on the market. The longer it has been their the more open they may be to bids.

That's a pretty cool site. It shows the house we bought was 350 when it was first put on the market then went down to about 299 a few months later and we bought it for 280. There's a similar house to ours across the street now on sale for 370. It is in better condition than ours when we bought it but that's still Cloud Cuckoo Land prices.

The_Conductor

Once interest rates start to rise later this year (increasingly probable- as EU inflation rates are increasing month on month)- the Irish and Spanish property sectors are going to take another nose dive.

Buyers are not going to get mortgages that they imagine they are entitled to- and sellers are going to have to readjust their expectations to meet changed circumstances.

The period from 1994 to 2007 was an anamoly- that is highly unlikely to ever be repeated again. If people do not accept this- they are going to be incredibly disappointed.

Tevion- the current offer you put in was/is a reasonable offer. If the seller does not accept this- that is also entirely his/her perogative. If he/she decides that unless they get a particular magic number they are going to stay put- then, most likely they are going to stay put. It is their right to turn down any offer whatsoever without explanation- similarly, it is your right to walk if you're unhappy. The boot may be on the other foot for buyers now, conditions having favoured sellers for a long period of time- however the simple laws of negotiation still exist.

Interest rates are going to rise- and our unemployment rate is forecast to rise another 3% in 2010 before stabilising around 15%.

A healthy dose of reality has to be accepted by all concerned.

west101

smccarrick wrote: »

Once interest rates start to rise later this year (increasingly probable- as EU inflation rates are increasing month on month)- the Irish and Spanish property sectors are going to take another nose dive.

Buyers are not going to get mortgages that they imagine they are entitled to- and sellers are going to have to readjust their expectations to meet changed circumstances.

The period from 1994 to 2007 was an anamoly- that is highly unlikely to ever be repeated again. If people do not accept this- they are going to be incredibly disappointed.

Tevion- the current offer you put in was/is a reasonable offer. If the seller does not accept this- that is also entirely his/her perogative. If he/she decides that unless they get a particular magic number they are going to stay put- then, most likely they are going to stay put. It is their right to turn down any offer whatsoever without explanation- similarly, it is your right to walk if you're unhappy. The boot may be on the other foot for buyers now, conditions having favoured sellers for a long period of time- however the simple laws of negotiation still exist.

Interest rates are going to rise- and our unemployment rate is forecast to rise another 3% in 2010 before stabilising around 15%.

A healthy dose of reality has to be accepted by all concerned.

Agree with you there intrest rates will rise this year creating huge problems. Although the property bubble was not an anomoly, it was only the first time it happened in Ireland. Its a good bet that in 50 years or so when all the lessons have been forgotten and NAMA is long gone (hopefully) it will all happen again.

The_Conductor

west101 wrote: »

Agree with you there intrest rates will rise this year creating huge problems. Although the property bubble was not an anomoly, it was only the first time it happened in Ireland. Its a good bet that in 50 years or so when all the lessons have been forgotten and NAMA is long gone (hopefully) it will all happen again.

Its not the first time it happened in Ireland though- I don't know if you're old enough to remember the bubble in land prices in the 1970s here?

It doesn't tend to repeat in the same sectors- but it does tend to repeat.

How do you reckon that the property price bubble was not/is not an anamoly? Its part of human nature- going back historically you can remember a lot of booms and busts- all the way back to the infamous Dutch tulip boom and bust.

daltonr

Taltos wrote: »

Personally I would now contact the EA and tell them the offer is off the table.
Tell them that you may be open to reconsidering the offer at a later date - and at that time I would go in with 10k less than you just went in at.

I understand the urge to go down this road, but I'd advise against it. I wouldn't always have advised against it, but hear me out.

This notion of ringing the EA to tell them your bid is off the table, is a bit like calling that girl you broke up with months ago to tell her you never really liked her anyway. It's getting emotion involved, and it's a bit childish.

It's an attitude of...I'll show them for not taking my offer. I'll show 'em they can't push me around. My offer is off the table...so there....Now you're screwed.

The reality is the EA couldn't give a toss and if you call him up in a months time is unlikely to even remember you.

Taltos wrote: »

This will do 2 things.
1 establish your credibility with the EA - next time you place an offer on another property they will be able to tell the seller - this is the max - reject it and the next offer will be less

2 keeps you in control...

I dunno.

A credible buyer makes it clear UP FRONT when an offer is the full and final offer. They don't need to go calling up EA's after offers have been refused to withdraw the offer.

"You can't break up with me, I already broke up with you!"

As for keeping you in control....

Calling up after an offer has been refused is just the sign an EA needs to know that the Buyer has a thing for this house.

Move on, find a different house. By all means when an offer is refused let the EA know that if a similar house comes on the market at a more reasonable price that he/she should give you a call.

Cordial, professional etc. That's the way to go.

-Rd

mathie

So I went to view a couple of houses last night.
The estate agent came out with some classics

- House prices in the area are dropping 10K a month.
- One house had an offer of 500K 6 months ago, the valuer came and said it was worth 460K and the poptential purchasers were very annoyed. Not annoyed at themselves or the sellers. No. Annoyed at the bank for not valuing it at what they felt it was 'worth'.
- The EA said in Sept 2006 the phones stopped ringing and that he spent 2007 trying to convince people the game wasn't up when he knew it was.
- The EA spoke of there being very little supply in the area (I didn't bring up the 300K empties). Then he mentioned one estate where they'd normally have 20 houses for sale at a time, they've only three at the moment. A couple splitting up, an investor and a 'guy who got himself into trouble'.
- He said 'if people don't have to sell then they won't'. They will 'wait it out'.

I didn't want to get into an argument with him.

The_Conductor

mathie wrote: »

'if people don't have to sell then they won't'. They will 'wait it out'.

I wonder do they bargain on waiting for 25-30 years.....:)

mathie

smccarrick wrote: »

I wonder do they bargain on waiting for 25-30 years.....:)

He also said that the house that was valued at 470K had subsequently got an offer of 470K but they turned that down.
Some classic logic there!

lion_bar

smccarrick wrote: »

I wonder do they bargain on waiting for 25-30 years.....:)

Why wouldn't they wait?

If you don't have to sell why would you sell in a falling market?

mathie

lion_bar wrote: »

Why wouldn't they wait?

If you don't have to sell why would you sell in a falling market?

True.
So the question is who will sell in a falling market?
Executor sales, investors with cold feet, reposessed homes, couple who split etc, etc...

jmayo

Pushtrak wrote: »

Could ye go up another 10? If so, say that and final offer.

Trigger is that you ?

Thanos wrote: »

If you are not in a hurry, then just leave the offer there and keep looking around. They may get back to you after a few days........
If after that you do not see anything you like better try offering 5k more and say you need an answer within 2 or 3 days.

Oh dear God no.
It is buyers market, the buyer isn't pushed about buying, so he has the ball and can go home with it if he wants leaving the seller to play with themselves.

smccarrick wrote: »

Once interest rates start to rise later this year (increasingly probable- as EU inflation rates are increasing month on month)- the Irish and Spanish property sectors are going to take another nose dive.

Buyers are not going to get mortgages that they imagine they are entitled to- and sellers are going to have to readjust their expectations to meet changed circumstances.

The period from 1994 to 2007 was an anamoly- that is highly unlikely to ever be repeated again. If people do not accept this- they are going to be incredibly disappointed.
...
Interest rates are going to rise- and our unemployment rate is forecast to rise another 3% in 2010 before stabilising around 15%.

A healthy dose of reality has to be accepted by all concerned.

Once again smccarrick speaks nothing but common sense and thus shines a very bright light on the big elephant hiding in the corner i.e. ECB interest rate hikes.

smccarrick wrote: »

Its not the first time it happened in Ireland though- I don't know if you're old enough to remember the bubble in land prices in the 1970s here?

It doesn't tend to repeat in the same sectors- but it does tend to repeat.

How do you reckon that the property price bubble was not/is not an anamoly? Its part of human nature- going back historically you can remember a lot of booms and busts- all the way back to the infamous Dutch tulip boom and bust.

Land prices adjusted for inflation and rise in living standards were higher circa 1979 than in 2007.
All due to EEC and agriculture booming mid to late 70s.
The fallout from the debts carried by some farmers lasted for years and had huge bearing on rural Ireland in 80s.

mathie wrote: »

True.
So the question is who will sell in a falling market?
Executor sales, investors with cold feet, reposessed homes, couple who split etc, etc...

I bet there are fair few investors hanging on with interest only mortgages that may have interest only terms expiring.
I know some banks are forcing them to go to normal mortgage with capital repayments.
The investors can't afford it so have to sell.

Also sooner or later the rent allowance scheme will take a hit and the artifical floor on rents will come tumbling down, that will send many investors to the wall.

Looking at some property sales (especially rural ones) in the last year, lots of properties appear to be older, in poorer condition and thus looking like executor sales.
These will continue as it could end up costing more to keep them and families members will all want their cut.

loyatemu

why would you sell in a falling market? well unless you own a time machine and can go back 2 years, prices are only going to get lower still over the next year or so and they're probably not going to bounce back in any major way. On that basis, if you think you're going to want to sell in the next few years, now is the time to do it. That's why I can't understand people saying they're going to wait it out - for what exactly? The return of the celtic tiger?

D3PO

tevion wrote: »

My fiancee made what I thought was quite a reasonable offer for a property in the Beaumount area.
The asking price is 325K and she offered 280K.
The EA told us the seller refused, although there is isnt any other bids on the property currently.
Apparantly the seller wants to get close to the asking price, which I think in the current climate wont happen, and the EA are recommending to consider anything around 300K.
Either way, her bid remains the same, while she is still hunting, but you would imagine the seller would take hand and all, given what is happening these days!

in your opinion its a decent offer that doesnt make it so.