Denying our humanity

del88

Hi
After a friend passed away 2 weeks ago I've been giving a lot of thought to the whole idea of believing in god..
I've probably been an atheist/agnostic since the age of 12 and have been fairly vocal on the subject...
So a question that I can't seem to put right in my head is by not believing in a god am I denying my humanity.
I presume every one here is human and that most people except that 99% of early civisation belived in some sort of god...so by not believing in god am i denying a hardwired evolutionary urge to belive in god...thus denying our humanity???

Turtwig

Depends,

Belief in God is natural and we most probably evolved to believe in Gods. However, is what is natural what is human? I don't know. Arguments of appeal to nature certainly don't help either.

So my answer is : You're human either way.

chozometroid

del88 wrote: »

Hi
After a friend passed away 2 weeks ago I've been giving a lot of thought to the whole idea of believing in god..
I've probably been an atheist/agnostic since the age of 12 and have been fairly vocal on the subject...
So a question that I can't seem to put right in my head is by not believing in a god am I denying my humanity.
I presume every one here is human and that most people except that 99% of early civisation belived in some sort of god...so by not believing in god am i denying a hardwired evolutionary urge to belive in god...thus denying our humanity???

Sorry for your loss.

The way you ask your question, is it atheist-only responses you want?

PDN

Sorry to hear about your friend.

It depends what you mean by 'denying your humanity'. I assume you're looking for answers from Christians by posting this in the Christianity forum. Christianity would believe that God has a plan and a purpose for each of our lives and, by not seeking fellowship with God, we will miss out on some of our potential as human beings.

If you are looking for confirmation for your disbelief in God then I would suggest you might want to post a similar thread in the Atheism and Agnosticism thread. That way other atheists/agnostics can discuss how religion is only man-made, how being an atheist makes you more human etc. - the kind of stuff that pretty soon descends into attacks on Christianity and is more in tune with A&A's Charter than with the Charter of this forum.

liamw

del88 wrote: »

...so by not believing in god am i denying a hardwired evolutionary urge to belive in god...thus denying our humanity???

Sure, I think you're correct in thinking that the human mind has a predisposition to believing in the supernatural, most likely in my opinion as a result of misfiring evolved trait/s.

Let me put a simple analogy to you. If ANYTHING is a hardwired evolutionary urge, it is the urge to reproduce. Do you think that sexual protection is denying our humanity?

We don't have to play by our gene's rules.

Zombrex

del88 wrote: »

Hi
After a friend passed away 2 weeks ago I've been giving a lot of thought to the whole idea of believing in god..
I've probably been an atheist/agnostic since the age of 12 and have been fairly vocal on the subject...
So a question that I can't seem to put right in my head is by not believing in a god am I denying my humanity.
I presume every one here is human and that most people except that 99% of early civisation belived in some sort of god...so by not believing in god am i denying a hardwired evolutionary urge to belive in god...thus denying our humanity???

liamw beat me to the punch some what with this point, but the follow on question to your question is Is that a bad thing

You have an evolutionary urge to be afraid of heights and fire. Does that mean it is a bad thing that fire fighters are "denying their humanity" by rushing up a ladder to put out a burning building?

I don't see anything wrong with rationally concluding a position opposite to our instinctive urges, and I think it is a very good thing to be skeptical of conclusions reached based on our instinctive urges.

roger_pearse

del88 wrote: »

Hi
After a friend passed away 2 weeks ago I've been giving a lot of thought to the whole idea of believing in god..
I've probably been an atheist/agnostic since the age of 12 and have been fairly vocal on the subject...
So a question that I can't seem to put right in my head is by not believing in a god am I denying my humanity.
I presume every one here is human and that most people except that 99% of early civisation belived in some sort of god...so by not believing in god am i denying a hardwired evolutionary urge to belive in god...thus denying our humanity???

We have hard-wired urges to rape, steal, and murder*, as do we all. We are not denying our humanity by repressing these; we are asserting our humanity by prioritising our intellect over our animal half. It is our bestiality, as an animal in physical terms, that we deny. Evolution applies to the animal side of ourselves, surely?

But worship... I don't believe that our spiritual side is an animal passion.

* Especially on Thursdays.

doctoremma

roger_pearse wrote: »

We have hard-wired urges to rape, steal, and murder, as do we all

I think I disagree with this. I don't think we do.

1sittingduck

del88 wrote: »

Hi
After a friend passed away 2 weeks ago I've been giving a lot of thought to the whole idea of believing in god..
I've probably been an atheist/agnostic since the age of 12 and have been fairly vocal on the subject...
So a question that I can't seem to put right in my head is by not believing in a god am I denying my humanity.
I presume every one here is human and that most people except that 99% of early civisation belived in some sort of god...so by not believing in god am i denying a hardwired evolutionary urge to belive in god...thus denying our humanity???

Practicing Roman Catholic here. I'm very sorry to hear about your friend and I hope he (she?) is now at peace.
Regarding your question(s), no, I don't think you're denying your humanity - just the idea that God gave it to you.

kelly1

del88 wrote: »

Hi
After a friend passed away 2 weeks ago I've been giving a lot of thought to the whole idea of believing in god..
I've probably been an atheist/agnostic since the age of 12 and have been fairly vocal on the subject...
So a question that I can't seem to put right in my head is by not believing in a god am I denying my humanity.
I presume every one here is human and that most people except that 99% of early civisation belived in some sort of god...so by not believing in god am i denying a hardwired evolutionary urge to belive in god...thus denying our humanity???

Hello Del, sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.

I'm not sure how to answer your question really. First of all I don't believe our urge to seek God has anything to do with evolution because I believe this is a natural attribute of the soul and the soul didn't come about through evolution.

By denying God, I think we deny our ultimate purpose which is to be united to God in Christ. God is Alpha and Omega, beginning and end. Our journey towards God gives our lives true purpose and meaning. By cooperating with God's plan and His grace, we become what we were created to be. The mess we see in the world today is because people have decided to reject God and His plan for us.

I think when we reject God, we become nothing more than intelligent animals with no real purpose or hope for the future. I think this is the greatest tragedy.

Probably not the kind of answer you had in mind maybe?

God bless,
Noel.

Osgoodisgood

PDN wrote: »

If you are looking for confirmation for your disbelief in God then I would suggest you might want to post a similar thread in the Atheism and Agnosticism thread. That way other atheists/agnostics can discuss how religion is only man-made, how being an atheist makes you more human etc. - the kind of stuff that pretty soon descends into attacks on Christianity and is more in tune with A&A's Charter than with the Charter of this forum.

Atheists discuss that? Are you sure?

PDN

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

Atheists discuss that? Are you sure?

Why should I be sure of something I never said? I posted that atheists can discuss that - whether they do or not is entirely up to them.

Please try to concentrate.

liamw

kelly1 wrote: »

First of all I don't believe our urge to seek God has anything to do with evolution because I believe this is a natural attribute of the soul and the soul didn't come about through evolution.

If you accept evolution, then you'll agree that humans and slugs have a common ancestor. Where did the soul come from in your opinion, and at what point in evolution did the soul become part of the human species? Did Lucy and Ardi have souls?

Osgoodisgood

PDN wrote: »

Why should I be sure of something I never said? I posted that atheists can discuss that - whether they do or not is entirely up to them.

Please try to concentrate.

My concentration is just fine. Thanks for your concern.
A friend of mine in the US describes attempts at verbal trickery such as yours as a "greased pig in a house of mirrors".

Perhaps your time might be better invested in conjuring deprecating replies to comments that people actually make? You know, instead of the ones you'd like them to make?

PDN

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

My concentration is just fine. Thanks for your concern.
A friend of mine in the US describes attempts at verbal trickery such as yours as a "greased pig in a house of mirrors".

Perhaps your time might be better invested in conjuring deprecating replies to comments that people actually make? You know, instead of the ones you'd like them to make?

If you want to participate in the discussion of the OP then feel free to do so. If you want to pick a fight then go elsewhere.

It's not my fault that you chose to try to put words into my mouth. Next time you get offended at a moderator giving some instruction or directions I suggest you communicate it by PM and, I promise you, I will give it the attention it merits.

kelly1

liamw wrote: »

If you accept evolution, then you'll agree that humans and slugs have a common ancestor. Where did the soul come from in your opinion, and at what point in evolution did the soul become part of the human species? Did Lucy and Ardi have souls?

Liam, I do accept evolution but I'm also open to the possibility that man was specially created by God even though there were other humanoids around at the time. I'm not a creationist per se. Either way, I believe God directly created a soul in the first humans and these first people are commonly known as Adam and Eve.

chozometroid

PDN wrote: »

Sorry to hear about your friend.

It depends what you mean by 'denying your humanity'. I assume you're looking for answers from Christians by posting this in the Christianity forum. Christianity would believe that God has a plan and a purpose for each of our lives and, by not seeking fellowship with God, we will miss out on some of our potential as human beings.

If you are looking for confirmation for your disbelief in God then I would suggest you might want to post a similar thread in the Atheism and Agnosticism thread. That way other atheists/agnostics can discuss how religion is only man-made, how being an atheist makes you more human etc. - the kind of stuff that pretty soon descends into attacks on Christianity and is more in tune with A&A's Charter than with the Charter of this forum.

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

Atheists discuss that? Are you sure?

PDN wrote: »

Why should I be sure of something I never said? I posted that atheists can discuss that - whether they do or not is entirely up to them.

Please try to concentrate.

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

My concentration is just fine. Thanks for your concern.
A friend of mine in the US describes attempts at verbal trickery such as yours as a "greased pig in a house of mirrors".

Perhaps your time might be better invested in conjuring deprecating replies to comments that people actually make? You know, instead of the ones you'd like them to make?

PDN wrote: »

If you want to participate in the discussion of the OP then feel free to do so. If you want to pick a fight then go elsewhere.

It's not my fault that you chose to try to put words into my mouth. Next time you get offended at a moderator giving some instruction or directions I suggest you communicate it by PM and, I promise you, I will give it the attention it merits.

Osgoodisgood:

The thread creator, an atheist/agnostic, made the connection that having a false belief in God(a subtle attack on Christianity) as a result of evolution is part of our humanity. It appears he is looking for atheist support in saying that "no, you can be quite human without following your primitive urge to believe in an imaginary god."

This thread actually violated the forum charter in the finality of it's statements regarding the falsity of religious belief.

5. Arguments such as "There is no God, therefore..." or "The Bible is full of contradictions, therefore..." will not be tolerated. Don't start off with a conclusion which your audience is bound to disagree with!

liamw

kelly1 wrote: »

Liam, I do accept evolution but I'm also open to the possibility that man was specially created by God even though there were other humanoids around at the time. I'm not a creationist per se. Either way, I believe God directly created a soul in the first humans and these first people are commonly known as Adam and Eve.

So you believe in evolution for every species except for humans. So humans don't share a common ancestor with chimpanzee for example?

del88

chozometroid wrote: »

Osgoodisgood:

The thread creator, an atheist/agnostic, made the connection that having a false belief in God(a subtle attack on Christianity) as a result of evolution is part of our humanity. It appears he is looking for atheist support in saying that "no, you can be quite human without following your primitive urge to believe in an imaginary god."

This thread actually violated the forum charter in the finality of it's statements regarding the falsity of religious belief.

I don't think i violated any charters and if i did it was not meant to offend.....it was an honest question.....and if anything it questioned atheist/agnostic beliefs...not sure how you can say I'm looking for a particular answer.
I was christened in the catholic church so i felt it was a question i could ask in the Christian forum.
But if these offends people then I'd be happy for the mods to remove..

chozometroid

del88 wrote: »

I don't think i violated any charters and if i did it was not meant to offend.....it was an honest question.....and if anything it questioned atheist/agnostic beliefs...not sure how you can say I'm looking for a particular answer.
I was christened in the catholic church so i felt it was a question i could ask in the Christian forum.
But if these offends people then I'd be happy for the mods to remove..

I don't think you meant offense, and I doubt anyone took it that way, but the OP states your assumption that religious belief is the result of evolution and not based on truth.

Turtwig

chozometroid wrote: »

I don't think you meant offense, and I doubt anyone took it that way, but the OP states your assumption that religious belief is the result of evolution and not based on truth.

I don't really see a difference. There is no question that religious belief is a product of evolution.I think, the question of whether or not a religion is true is a separate entity to that fact.:)

del88

chozometroid wrote: »

I don't think you meant offense, and I doubt anyone took it that way, but the OP states your assumption that religious belief is the result of evolution and not based on truth.

Fair enough .....as i said , i'm happy for mods to remove.
And thanks to all for replys .....still a bit lost.....no easy answers

chozometroid

Malty_T wrote: »

I don't really see a difference. There is no question that religious belief is a product of evolution.I think, the question of whether or not a religion is true is a separate entity to that fact.:)

Umm...even if a theist believes in evolution, I don't think this means they must accept that religious belief is a "product" of evolution. Religious belief is a product of God's revelation to man.

Darragh29

Malty_T wrote: »

Depends,

Belief in God is natural and we most probably evolved to believe in Gods. However, is what is natural what is human? I don't know. Arguments of appeal to nature certainly don't help either.

So my answer is : You're human either way.

How can you argue that "belief in God natural"??? No more than understanding the English language at the point of birth is natural??? We are taught from an early age who "God" is, very clearly depending upon the religious persuasion of our parents...

Turtwig

chozometroid wrote: »

Umm...even if a theist believes in evolution, I don't think this means they must accept that religious belief is a "product" of evolution. Religious belief is a product of God's revelation to man.

Okays we're getting a wee bit pedantic here:), but I'm referring to all religion (those which you would consider false) many of which predate Christianity by several thousand years. Religious belief is a product of evolution, if you want you can believe that Christianity is the product of God's revelation 2000 or so years ago. I'm just saying that religion is a product of evolution, the idea of god(s) and the supernatural were around hundreds of thousands of years before Jesus of Nazareth came to town.

antiskeptic

Malty_T wrote: »

Okays we're getting a wee bit pedantic here:), but I'm referring to all religion (those which you would consider false) many of which predate Christianity by several thousand years..

Yet Christianity see's itself as latent in OT times. Which predates the Christianity you're probably talking about.

Religious belief is a product of evolution,

And the proof is.. (given that there isn't even proof of evolution)

if you want you can believe that Christianity is the product of God's revelation 2000 or so years ago. I'm just saying that religion is a product of evolution, the idea of god(s) and the supernatural were around hundreds of thousands of years before Jesus of Nazareth came to town.

Hundreds of thousands of year before? Surely you mean "squillions"

Turtwig

antiskeptic wrote: »

And the proof is.. (given that there isn't even proof of evolution)

No "proof" in science.:pac:

Hundreds of thousands of year before? Surely you mean "squillions"

Nope, Hundreds of thousands.

Turtwig

Darragh29 wrote: »

How can you argue that "belief in God natural"???.

I don't really like the term "natural" as it is commonly used as a fallacy to rationalise something or other. I'm looking at things from the history perspective of homo-sapiens their predecessors. There is a fair deal of physical evidence that suggest our most distant ancestors began burying their own and carving stone symbols of worship. There is also a good deal of neuroscience that confirms human beings have a predisposition towards the supernatural. That's why I say belief in God is natural.

Darragh29

Malty_T wrote: »

I don't really like the term "natural" as it is commonly used as a fallacy to rationalise something or other. I'm looking at things from the history perspective of homo-sapiens their predecessors. There is a fair deal of physical evidence that suggest our most distant ancestors began burying their own and carving stone symbols of worship. There is also a good deal of neuroscience that confirms human beings have a predisposition towards the supernatural. That's why I say belief in God is natural.

The word "natural" also has a well understood meaning, it can be looked up in a dictionary and easily defined. This is the problem with any religious discussion, simple words with well understood meanings are heavily bent and different constructions are placed upon words that have a clear and very well understood meaning.

The OP here asks a very simple question. If those of a religious persuasion on here could just keep the discussion on topic, and stop waffling about matters that are not relevant to the OP's question, we might get somewhere with this thread.

Turtwig

Darragh29 wrote: »

The word "natural" also has a well understood meaning, it can be looked up in a dictionary and easily defined. This is the problem with any religious discussion, simple words with well understood meanings are heavily bent and different constructions are placed upon words that have a clear and very well understood meaning.

The OP here asks a very simple question. If those of a religious persuasion on here could just keep the discussion on topic, and stop waffling about matters that are not relevant to the OP's question, we might get somewhere with this thread.

I answered the OP in my original post, you then asked me why I said belief in God was natural and I explained why it is. I also clarified to you my reservations about the term natural both in the original post and in the post previous to this. Hope that was succinct enough.

Several posters here thought that the fact the OP was A/A and mentioned evolutionary hard-wired to believe in God meant that God was a product of evolution; not God. I just wanted to clarify that such a statement meant no such thing because many people have stigmas against evolution (for various reasons) and the last thing I wanted was them to develop another misconception. I apologise if it dragged this thread further off topic, but I felt it was necessary to correct an important misconception.

chozometroid

Darragh29 wrote: »

The word "natural" also has a well understood meaning, it can be looked up in a dictionary and easily defined. This is the problem with any religious discussion, simple words with well understood meanings are heavily bent and different constructions are placed upon words that have a clear and very well understood meaning.

The OP here asks a very simple question. If those of a religious persuasion on here could just keep the discussion on topic, and stop waffling about matters that are not relevant to the OP's question, we might get somewhere with this thread.

It's hard to keep things on topic when you have a seemingly atheist-only thread in a Christianity forum.

All that can be said is that you can be human and not religious, which is obvious.
The idea behind the OP can be applied to anything.
Do you deny your humanity by abandoning any beliefs that humans have developed over the years? No.
Humanity is just the state of being human.

As a Christian, I would say that it's not at all surprising that one would deny God. I see it as being human, but lost.

Denying your humanity would be when you start pretending you are not human and treat other humans though you are not a member of the same species.

Turtwig

chozometroid wrote: »

Denying your humanity would be when you start pretending you are not human and treat other humans though you are not a member of the same species.

QFT and all that.:)

antiskeptic

Malty_T wrote: »

No "proof" in science.:pac:

Quite. Perhaps it was "science" you were relying on when you said that..

Malty wrote:

Religious belief is a product of evolution,

Quite how you expect your brain, the product of evolution (as commonly understood) to arrive at any kind of truth statement whatsoever (including the truth statement "evolution happened" and "my brain is capable of deciding evolution happened") is beyond my reasoning. And in all probability, your reasoning too.

Were it not that you ignore that particular (unwelcome) elephant..

Turtwig

antiskeptic wrote: »

Quite how you expect your brain, the product of evolution (as commonly understood) to arrive at any kind of truth statement whatsoever (including the truth statement "evolution happened" and "my brain is capable of deciding evolution happened") is beyond my reasoning. And in all probability, your reasoning too.

Were it not that you ignore that particular (unwelcome) elephant..

Quite how you expect your brain, the product of a evolution via a divine creator (as commonly understood) to arrive at any kind of truth statement whatsoever (including the truth statement "biblical events happened" and "my brain is capable of deciding biblical events happened") is beyond my reasoning. And in all probability, your reasoning too.

Were it not that you ignore that particular (unwelcome) elephant..


I rephrased your sentence because I honestly haven't a clue what you are saying.
But if you were being pedantic, then :
"Religion is most probably a product of evolution."

Osgoodisgood

chozometroid wrote: »

Osgoodisgood:

The thread creator, an atheist/agnostic, made the connection that having a false belief in God(a subtle attack on Christianity) as a result of evolution is part of our humanity. It appears he is looking for atheist support in saying that "no, you can be quite human without following your primitive urge to believe in an imaginary god."

This thread actually violated the forum charter in the finality of it's statements regarding the falsity of religious belief.

I don't have a view on the OP's religious views. FWIW I didn't think he was an atheist anyway but that's not really important. Whether his post violates the charter seems to hinge on a technicality and you are welcome to argue the "religion has evolved/ is true" point amongst yourselves, at least, I won't be contributing because I don't know the answer.

My post addressed what I considered to be an entirely unprovoked and unsubstantiated comment by PDN about what the A&A forum would offer the OP if he posted there. Whilst I remain unconvinced of the purpose of such a statement, at PDN's suggestion I have exchanged PMs with him and now consider the matter dealt with and I suspect PDN does too.

kumate_champ07

I think our ancestors would have witnessed things in nature that they could not explain and associated that with 'God/s'

thunder+lightning, sunrise, total eclipse, full moon, shooting stars, hurricanes, hailstones, northern lights etc

how else could they explain them

we arent hard wired to believe in a God, our intelligence has evolved over thousands of years and we have learned some of lifes mysteries, but there are things that we maybe perhaps will never know. people turn to 'God' for different reasons, some due to fear/the need for salvation, others thru family ie people are born into religion. there are many reasons.

I guarantee that any Irish Christian here in this forum would be a Muslim if they had been born in Iran instead of Ireland., because they were born into it

my parents did not force religion on me, I have looked into religion myself and the posibility if a God exists and came to my own conclusions, some people dont have that privilege

Humanity is made of both good and evil. denial is having morals

Turtwig

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I guarantee that any Irish Christian here in this forum would be a Muslim if they had been born in Iran instead of Ireland.

That is quite the statement to make. Quite the statement. Are you saying 100% gurantee? Or 59%? What about the Irish Muslims here in this forum?

kumate_champ07

Malty_T wrote: »

That is quite the statement to make. Quite the statement. Are you saying 100% gurantee? Or 59%? What about the Irish Muslims here in this forum?

I had a feeling I might get a response like that, how many ex 'practicing Christians' Irish muslim converts are there in Ireland?

yes guarantee is a strong word but I'd be confident in a figure of at the very least 95%


did you have any issues with anything else I said or just semantics?

roger_pearse

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I think our ancestors would have witnessed things in nature that they could not explain and associated that with 'God/s'

This would appear to be the fallacy of generalisation.

I guarantee that any Irish Christian here in this forum would be a Muslim if they had been born in Iran instead of Ireland., because they were born into it

But how can you know any of these things? And how, living by convenience as you suggest you do, can you object to people doing what you do?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

kumate_champ07

roger_pearse wrote: »

And how, living by convenience as you suggest you do, can you object to people doing what you do?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Are you suggesting that I think its wrong for people to believe in a god?
I think religion or a belief in god can be good for some people, but it can be bad for others.
George W Bush said God told him to go to war, he says he talks to god.
perhaps he was talking to Ares?



All the best,

Kumate_Champ07

Fanny Cradock

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Are you suggesting that I think its wrong for people to believe in a god?
I think religion or a belief in god can be good for some people, but it can be bad for others.
George W Bush said God told him to go to war, he says he talks to god.
perhaps he was talking to Ares?



All the best,

Kumate_Champ07

AFAIK, Bush never made such a claim.

liamw

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I had a feeling I might get a response like that, how many ex 'practicing Christians' Irish muslim converts are there in Ireland?

yes guarantee is a strong word but I'd be confident in a figure of at the very least 95%


did you have any issues with anything else I said or just semantics?

I would agree in principle given statistical data of belief as based on geographical location. However, simply saying that the majority would probably be Muslim would suffice.

PDN

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

AFAIK, Bush never made such a claim.

Urban legend, apparently.

kumate_champ07

PDN wrote: »

Urban legend, apparently.

no, but its not 100% confirmed.