St.Mary Doctrine

Piano man

santing wrote: »

It doesn't explain how Mary can be part of the Church (the Bride of Christ) and simultaneously be the Queen/Mother...

I didn't realise this was an issue. Mary was the one person who was nearest Jesus for His whole life, she was his most devoted follower, she bore Him in her womb, nourished His vocation and stuck by Him even on the Cross and afterwards; of course she is part of the Church. To use a human analogy, can someone be married and simultaneously have a mother? Of course!
And from a previous point you made about the Rosary, it is incorrect to say that we pray to Mary, it is more correct to say we pray through her. Why? Here's a reason to add to the many in the article I referenced.
In the Magnificat, Mary says 'My soul doth magnify the Lord'. Mary is the prime example of human purity and how a human can be transformed by Love. So she is as close as possible to God as it is possible for a human to be. So asking Mary to intercede for us is just us recognising that her prayers are better than ours by virtue of her unique relationship with God.
And we don't worship Mary, we honour the mother of our Saviour, as Jesus did Himself.
God bless:)

homer911

Piano man wrote: »

Mary was the one person who was nearest Jesus for His whole life, she was his most devoted follower,

..yet there is virtually no mention of her in the Gospels during Jesus' years of ministry

And from a previous point you made about the Rosary, it is incorrect to say that we pray to Mary, it is more correct to say we pray through her.

Protestants wouldnt see any difference. Jesus is our intercessor with God the Father, not Mary, we dont need anyone else.

To pray through her, she would have to hear your prayers. I dont believe there is anything in the Bible to suggest that anyone other than God can hear and respond to prayer.

So asking Mary to intercede for us is just us recognising that her prayers are better than ours by virtue of her unique relationship with God.

Define "better"

Even accepting your referenced article (which I don't, outside of the actual kings and queens mentioned), the situations referred to all relate to earthly Kings and Queens - there are many examples in history and literature of this type of relationship - not all good (Coriolanus anyone?) The idea that Jesus, as both man and God, would have the same kind of relationship with his mother, in life and in Heaven, is stretching things beyond credibility for all non-Catholics

While I appreciate the debate, It's going to take a lot more than this to convince me

1 Timothy 2: 5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Piano man

Sorry to be ceaselessly referencing articles, but I learnt what I know from these sources, and I think they are a bit better at explaining them than I would be, so I encourage you all, it you really seek the answers to your questions instead of trying to find fault, to have a look at the following, and ask the Holy Spirit to guide your understanding of them.

This should answer your query relating to saints and angels being able to hear prayers.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=409551&highlight=mediator\

And this should shed some light on the Mediator issue.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/Mary/page5

Here's a quote from the second source above that should explain:

'Even we are mediators, in a lesser sense. The word mediator means someone who is a go-between. In 1 Timothy 2:5, which refers to Jesus as the "one mediator," the Greek word for "one" is heis, which means "first" or "primary" and does not denote something exclusive. In fact, we are all mediators when we pray for one another. As members of the Mystical Body of Christ, we all share in Christ’s role as mediator, but our efforts at being go-betweens "work" only because of what he has done.

Our mediating in no way diminishes the role of Christ as mediator; in fact, it glorifies the Father, because it is through Jesus that we can approach with confidence the throne of grace (Heb 4:14-16). How much more does Jesus give his mother Mary the privilege to be a participant in the distribution of grace!'

You say that there is virtually no mention of Mary during His years of ministry, but on the contrary, if you go through the Gospels, counting the times Mary appears compared with any of the disciples, you'll find it's a lot more. Now, I haven't done this myself so I can't quote figures, but the first few chapters of Luke are enough really. If you still are not convinced of the importance of Mary in Jesus' life, I suggest you go through the Gospels again.

You say 'there are many examples in history and literature of this type of relationship' but actually there are no other examples where God would take on human form and honour the woman who bore Him into this world. The only reason the comparison with the Old Testament Kings and Queen Mothers is valid is because God explicitly stated that Jesus would inherit the throne of David, which had with it the position of Queen Mother. Jesus' kingdom is of course different to that of David's as He rules from heaven, but the fact that it is a Davidic Kingdom implies that the dignity of the Queen Mother is retained. The article I referenced explains it clearer than I can.

Also I would strongly recommend www.catholic.com as an excellent source for anyone who really seeks to understand the Catholic view.

God bless:)

philologos

Piano man wrote: »

I didn't realise this was an issue. Mary was the one person who was nearest Jesus for His whole life, she was his most devoted follower, she bore Him in her womb, nourished His vocation and stuck by Him even on the Cross and afterwards; of course she is part of the Church. To use a human analogy, can someone be married and simultaneously have a mother? Of course!
And from a previous point you made about the Rosary, it is incorrect to say that we pray to Mary, it is more correct to say we pray through her. Why? Here's a reason to add to the many in the article I referenced.
In the Magnificat, Mary says 'My soul doth magnify the Lord'. Mary is the prime example of human purity and how a human can be transformed by Love. So she is as close as possible to God as it is possible for a human to be. So asking Mary to intercede for us is just us recognising that her prayers are better than ours by virtue of her unique relationship with God.
And we don't worship Mary, we honour the mother of our Saviour, as Jesus did Himself.
God bless:)

I actually agree with most of this post. The line in bold is the real issue for me.

I believe that I have the best intermediary of all. Jesus Christ. I believe that nobody gets to the Father except through Him (John 14:9). If we believe in Jesus, we have been made clean already as He has stood in our place for us, allowing us an audience with God again.

Don't get me wrong. Mary is a servant of God, but Jesus is the way to God. It's like in Hebrews when the author contrasts the difference between Moses as the Servant to the Jewish people, and Jesus as their Saviour, and the Son of God (Hebrews 3:1-6).

Piano man

Yes, Jesus is a sure path to God. Of course, that's because He is God.
Of course going direct to God is great.
I suppose the reason some Catholics choose to pray through saints is down to humility, that we recognise our unworthiness in approaching the throne of God. Praying through saints does not divert from God, as the focus of prayer is always God, but asking saints to intercede for us is recognising their better position with respect to God, by virtue of the fact that they are united with Him in heaven.
Of course, praying through saints is a choice, it just seems to make sense.

And, for completeness, to answer that last question of homer, 'define better'; better derives from the word 'good' and as God is the source of all goodness, I think 'proximity to God' as a measure of goodness is a suitable definition for this discussion, with unity being perfection.

God bless:)

BrianCalgary

Piano man wrote: »

Yes, Jesus is a sure path to God. Of course, that's because He is God.
Of course going direct to God is great.
I suppose the reason some Catholics choose to pray through saints is down to humility, that we recognise our unworthiness in approaching the throne of God. Praying through saints does not divert from God, as the focus of prayer is always God, but asking saints to intercede for us is recognising their better position with respect to God, by virtue of the fact that they are united with Him in heaven.
Of course, praying through saints is a choice, it just seems to make sense.

And, for completeness, to answer that last question of homer, 'define better'; better derives from the word 'good' and as God is the source of all goodness, I think 'proximity to God' as a measure of goodness is a suitable definition for this discussion, with unity being perfection.

God bless:)

Mu issue with praying through saints is that if you are in ireland praying to St Mary, whilst I am in Calgary at the same time praying to St Mary, she would have to be in both places at the same time to hear our prayer in order to intercede.
That means she would have to be omnipresent, which she is not, which makes skingher to intereced sor of an exercise in futility.

Jesus however, being God, is omnipresent which means praying to Him the best option as you can do so in Ireland and I can in Western Canada at the same time, knowing that our prayer would be heard.

Piano man

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Mu issue with praying through saints is that if you are in ireland praying to St Mary, whilst I am in Calgary at the same time praying to St Mary, she would have to be in both places at the same time to hear our prayer in order to intercede.
That means she would have to be omnipresent, which she is not, which makes skingher to intereced sor of an exercise in futility.

Jesus however, being God, is omnipresent which means praying to Him the best option as you can do so in Ireland and I can in Western Canada at the same time, knowing that our prayer would be heard.

Not at all!:) Heaven is where God dwells and all the saints united with Him, and so share in the omniprescence of God.
Heaven is outside time, which is a pretty tricky concept to grasp, because our lives are so dependent on time. So if I pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary at the same time as you do in Calgary, then because heaven is outside time, Mary must be aswell, so she can hear both prayers instantaneously and for all eternity aswell. I don't think as humans we can imagine that though.
God bless:)

philologos

Isn't it not more bureaucracy though? Kind of like passing a letter through another level of paper work to get to the reciprient?

We don't need to pray to Mary, and if we have been all justified by the blood of Christ on the cross we can reach Him directly. We are after all told, that nothing can separate us from the love of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:39-40).

If I have been justified by Jesus' blood, through baptism (Romans 6:1-4) and we have been (if I am to use the clichéd phrase) "born again" in Him. It boggles the mind to think that there is additional benefit in praying to Mary also.

Thanks for putting your point across, it is interesting all the same.

Piano man

Bureacracy isn't the right analogy, because that implies a distancing of the one who prays from God. It's more like submitting an assignment and getting someone more knowledgeable to proofread it before submitting it - I know that's not a perfect analogy but the point I'm trying to make is that by going through Mary or any other saint, the prayer does not become diminished because of the 'extra level' of transmission, rather it becomes magnified, purified in the Love of Heaven so it is made more perfect as an offering to God.
Of course, again, praying through Mary or the saints is not necessary, it just seems to make sense.
God bless:)

philologos

Interesting that you provide Mary as the more knowledgable proof reader. Not trying to be petty here, and I hope you know that isn't my intention. I believe that the Holy Spirit intercedes in my prayers when I do not know what to say. I sometimes, have to ask God to help me better pray to Him. It seems like a tautology, but my mind is often set on the ways of the world rather than what is truly better for me, for others I pray for, and for whatever respective ministries, and group activities that I really want to take off.

Romans 8:26-27 wrote:

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

God offers us the Spirit to help proofread our prayers if you will.

postcynical

Pianoman, do you have an answer for the point that none greater than John the Baptist has ever been?

Piano man

Jakkass wrote: »

Interesting that you provide Mary as the more knowledgable proof reader.

Maybe I should have said 'more knowledgeable than I'. I think it was clear I did not mean Mary is more knowledgeable than God.
Those in heaven have full knowledge of God (1Cor13:12) and so their petitions are perfect, unlike mine here on Earth.
And yes, of course the Holy Spirit intercedes for us, what a grace that is!
Praying to the saints is a choice - see my post on humility above (no. 36).

postcynical wrote: »

Pianoman, do you have an answer for the point that none greater than John the Baptist has ever been?

Actually I was wondering if this would come up.
Here's the link - third question down
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/Mary/page3

Here is the specific question and answer given.

Q:
Protestants point to Matthew 11:11, where Jesus claims that John the Baptist is the greatest born of woman. Yet we consider Mary to be the greatest human creature as Theotokos. How do we reconcile these arguments?

A:
Obviously a literal, uninformed reading of this verse can be problematic. Jesus must have had a specific context in mind when he made that statement. The context comes into focus when we consider the preceding verses, where Jesus asked, "Why then did you go out? To see a prophet?" and then answered, "Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet" (Matt. 11:9).

Clearly Jesus was proclaiming John the Baptist to be the greatest of all the prophets, indeed even something greater than a prophet, i.e. the Precursor.


God bless:)

santing

Piano man wrote: »

And from a previous point you made about the Rosary, it is incorrect to say that we pray to Mary, it is more correct to say we pray through her.

So if you say "Hail Mary" you are talking through her???
The catechism says:

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

It looks like you are praying to Mary and even expect her to be in your homes...

santing

Piano man wrote: »

I suppose the reason some Catholics choose to pray through saints is down to humility, that we recognise our unworthiness in approaching the throne of God.

Humility? I would argue it is because of pride... When Jesus and the Apostles time and time express that the way to God is open, that we can pray to the Father, that the Spirit in us says "Abba, Father" only unbelief and human pride seeks a different way.

Piano man

santing wrote: »

So if you say "Hail Mary" you are talking through her???

It looks like you are praying to Mary and even expect her to be in your homes...

When I say pray 'through her' I'm referring to the intended destination of the prayer, ie God. However, as Mary is united with God, to say pray 'to Mary' is not wrong. You'll find the two used interchangeably throughout any discussion of prayer, esp in Catholic theology. Of course I don't mean that Mary 'is' God, but I do mean that she has a position of unique dignity in the Kingdom of God.
If I was asking you to deliver a message to someone, I would send it 'through' you, but I would address you directly ('Hail, Santing', or whatever:))

santing wrote: »

Humility? I would argue it is because of pride...

Pride cannot beget a feeling of our unworthiness before God.

God bless:)

Stephentlig

postcynical wrote: »

Pianoman, do you have an answer for the point that none greater than John the Baptist has ever been?

I thought Catholic apologist John Salza nailed this one pretty much.

Lidia: Dear John. Christ is Risen! Thank you so much for your response and assistance with this!

Regarding to Matthew, my brother in law was referring to Mary. That there is no one born greater than John the Baptist including Mary. So he asks: why do Catholics honor her? I believe I can explain it, as Mary was born without original sin, and John the Baptist was? Thank you.

J. Salza: Does this mean that John the Baptist is greater than Jesus, since Jesus was also “born of woman”? Because if you take your brother-in-law’s argument to its logical extreme, you have to conclude that this is the case. I love John the Baptist; he is my patron saint. But how can he possibly be greater than the very person who brought forth the Incarnate Word of God from her womb? We don’t need to be Scripture scholars to figure this out.

This also demonstrates that you can’t read Scripture in a vacuum. This is like when Jesus says “call no man father” or “call no one good.” And yet throughout Scripture holy people refer to their spiritual leaders as “father” and Jesus calls people “good.” You must read Scripture in its proper context. Jesus was emphasizing the holiness of St. John the Baptist, but would not have been contradicting the other Scriptures where Mary is also called holy. For example, the Scripture where God, through Gabriel, calls Mary “full of grace” (Lk 1:28; in Greek, kecharitomene). There is only one other person in Scripture described as “full of grace,” and that person is Jesus Christ (Jn 1:14).

Stephentlig

sorry about the big writing, I've no idea how that happened it does it sometimes, perhaps it has something to do with copy and paste? *confused*

antiskeptic

Stephentlig wrote: »

I thought Catholic apologist John Salza nailed this one pretty much.

Let's have a look at the reasoning then..

Regarding to Matthew, my brother in law was referring to Mary. That there is no one born greater than John the Baptist including Mary. So he asks: why do Catholics honor her? I believe I can explain it, as Mary was born without original sin, and John the Baptist was? Thank you.

This supports one dubious RC notion with yet another so can hardly be considered ample support for the position

J. Salza: Does this mean that John the Baptist is greater than Jesus, since Jesus was also “born of woman”? Because if you take your brother-in-law’s argument to its logical extreme, you have to conclude that this is the case.

Whilst it's reasonable not to go to logical extremes in supposing Jesus mean John the Baptist was greater than he, there is no reason to suppose Mary greater than John the Baptist given the high place given John.

I love John the Baptist; he is my patron saint. But how can he possibly be greater than the very person who brought forth the Incarnate Word of God from her womb? We don’t need to be Scripture scholars to figure this out.

I'm afraid we do.

The reasoning here is circular: it is supposed that the person who brought forth the Incarnate Word of God ocupies a super-elevated position. And that supposition is used to support the supposition that Marys position is super-elevated.

antiskeptic

Piano man wrote: »

Maybe I should have said 'more knowledgeable than I'. I think it was clear I did not mean Mary is more knowledgeable than God.
Those in heaven have full knowledge of God (1Cor13:12) and so their petitions are perfect, unlike mine here on Earth.

The Corinthians passage talks about "then". It doesn't suggest anyone is at the "then" point now. Whilst we know Christ is currently seated at the right hand of the Father, the whereabouts of Mary is currently unknown. Could you elaborate on the detail for your position?

What basis is there for supposing Mary (or any other of the dead saints) petitioning for anything?

Stephentlig

Piano man, I would hold off debating them and I usually take them to PM's, because your debating with protestants that arent looking for the truth, they are speaking to you from a fixed position and state of belief, so no matter what you say, your still gonna get a response and antiskeptics responses are the funniest and most convuluted of them all.

seriously, if I was a psychiatrist looking for a funny qoute to frame and put on my wall I'd use this one of antiskeptics.

it is supposed that the person who brought forth the Incarnate Word of God ocupies a super-elevated position. And that supposition is used to support the supposition that Marys position is super-elevated.

you see even when you slap them in the face ( nicely of course ) with the truth, they still come back with the same responses.

its not supposed, you ignored the last part of John Salzas post where he says "the Scripture where God, through Gabriel, calls Mary “full of grace” (Lk 1:28; in Greek, kecharitomene). There is only one other person in Scripture described as “full of grace,” and that person is Jesus Christ (Jn 1:14)."

Mary is the ark of the new covenant, moses brought us the word on stone, and was feared so much so that when one person touched it they died. Mary actually brings us the word made ''flesh'' and Job says in 14:4 ''who can bring a clean thing from an unclean?'' surely antiskeptic isnt gonna argue that God would let the finger of Satan touch his only son in the womb of Mary? therefore she was made immaculate.

antiskeptic

Stephentlig wrote: »

Piano man, I would hold off debating them and I usually take them to PM's,

...bar for the odd foray into the open of course

.. because your debating with protestants that arent looking for the truth, they are speaking to you from a fixed position and state of belief,

Why should that cause someone to run for the hills? Either your 'truth' can withstand interrogation. Or it cannot.

its not supposed, you ignored the last part of John Salzas post where he says "the Scripture where God, through Gabriel, calls Mary “full of grace” (Lk 1:28; in Greek, kecharitomene). There is only one other person in Scripture described as “full of grace,” and that person is Jesus Christ (Jn 1:14)."

And? The point of such discussions is to progress form where scripture starts to where your own doctrine ends. How does one progress from what scripture limits itself to saying ..to whatever "Mary with the redeemer" is supposed to mean?

Speaking of ignoring posts:

We've seen support for one RC doctrine regarding Mary "supported" by supposing another RC doctrine (Mary born without sin) to be the case. When most here are interested in scriptural support for a position, that's hardly useful.

Then there's the circular argument where a supposition (something super-elevated about baring Jesus) supporting the notion that there is something super-elevated about baring Jesus.

Mary is the ark of the new covenant, moses brought us the word on stone, and was feared so much so that when one person touched it they died. Mary actually brings us the word made ''flesh'' and Job says in 14:4 ''who can bring a clean thing from an unclean?'' surely antiskeptic isnt gonna argue that God would let the finger of Satan touch his only son in the womb of Mary? therefore she was made immaculate.

Are we to suppose Mary's mother also without sin? If not, why not?

From whence "made immaculate". If such a supernatural intervention is to be created in order to fill a hole in some doctrine, why not a supernatural intervention preventing her sin from being transmitted to him in the womb? Scripture/logic only ...please!

seriously, if I was a psychiatrist looking for a funny qoute to frame and put on my wall I'd use this one of antiskeptics.

Er... that's a portion of your argument in a nutshell. Circular.

philologos

Stephentlig: I'm not really looking to get into a sectarian argument. Rather I don't think your view of Mary is reasonable or demonstrable in the light of Scripture. Therefore I hold to the Scriptural position that Mary was God's servant who helped bring His plan into fruition.

Stephentlig

Are we to suppose Mary's mother also without sin? If not, why not?

From whence "made immaculate". If such a supernatural intervention is to be created in order to fill a hole in some doctrine, why not a supernatural intervention preventing her sin from being transmitted to him in the womb? Scripture/logic only ...please!

Mary was human and was not equal to God, therefore God intervened and spared her from original sin by making her immaculate at the moment of her conception, to make her wholly pure for his Son, ( who is God ) therefore God descended from his throne to his throne ( St.Mary )

we know that she was made immaculate from conception from what scripture tells us, even when we revisit the greek we get a more clear answer. Luke 1:28 - the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14

Mary is the ark of the new covenant, human yet spared from original sin for God to be in her. Alma Mater

Piano man

I understand where you're coming from Stephen.

It's clear that some people are looking for a meaningless debate, rather than seeking to genuinely and charitably understand the Catholic viewpoint.
I have attempted to answer important queries charitably and have given a number of sources that are far better at explaining than I am.

The thing is, there is no short answer for many of these questions, and an individual interpretation of Scripture is doomed to be riddled with faults because we can only see the words as they are presented in the light of the twenty-first century society, and also some nuances of the Bible can be lost in translation from Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic. It is vital if we are to read the Bible and draw conclusions from it, that we read it in the light it was written.

I've spent the last while reading this article by Scott Hahn
http://www.catholic-pages.com/bvm/hahn.asp

It explains thoroughly the Biblical support for the Catholic position, going right through the Old Testament, explaining the original meanings of words and their implications, and describing the society of the time and what certain passages of Scripture implied in that sense. Then it goes through the Gospels, relating the various references to the Old Testament.
I encourage you all to read it.
Now I know some of you won't because you don't seek to understand the Catholic view, just pick holes in the bits you don't understand. But if you are genuinely interested in learning why Catholics have always venerated Mary, something that went undisputed until the Reformation, then do take the time to read that article. And if you have any questions after reading that, look up different sources yourself, (Scott Hahn is particularly good) because I am only a mediator after all, and all I can do is direct you to articles that explain what I believe.

(Here's another link you might want to try http://deborahgyapong.blogspot.com/2008/04/scott-hahn-explains-doctrines-on-mary.html )

And in all you research and read, may the Holy Spirit be your guide.
If anyone is looking for valid sources on a specific topic that you can't find, I'm more than willing to help.

God bless:)

philologos

I'm really just curious then, is my faith deficient according to the Roman Catholic Church if I choose not to pray the Rosary, but instead pray to God as one does to a friend (like in Exodus 33:11)?

Edit: Stephentlig - How's the discussion with wolfsbane going?

Stephentlig

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm really just curious then, is my faith deficient according to the Roman Catholic Church if I choose not to pray the Rosary, but instead pray to God as one does to a friend (like in Exodus 33:11)?

Edit: Stephentlig - How's the discussion with wolfsbane going?

Hi Jak, he pmed me I pm'ed him back and havnt heard from him in three days. perhaps he is busy, so I didnt wanna come in here and shout ''Next'' so soon.

Jak when we honour or venerate the virgin Mary we are really honouring God himself ( Gal 1:24 ) "and they glorified God in me. "

protestants confuse you into thinkin that we are worshipping mary and the saints as idols , but If you pm me or e-mail me I'll demonstrate to you using scripture how that is not so venerate is different that worship.

If I am to put my faith into God then I put my faith ( both belief and trust ) in his doctrine that he has crowned Mary Queen of Heaven and the greatest of saints.

I'm starting to get tired, *yawn* probably gonna go to bed soon, sorry if my teasing antiskeptic seemed argumentive, I'm just teasing him.

wolfsbane

Stephentlig wrote: »

Hi Jak, he pmed me I pm'ed him back and havnt heard from him in three days. perhaps he is busy, so I didnt wanna come in here and shout ''Next'' so soon.

Jak when we honour or venerate the virgin Mary we are really honouring God himself ( Gal 1:24 ) "and they glorified God in me. "

protestants confuse you into thinkin that we are worshipping mary and the saints as idols , but If you pm me or e-mail me I'll demonstrate to you using scripture how that is not so venerate is different that worship.

If I am to put my faith into God then I put my faith ( both belief and trust ) in his doctrine that he has crowned Mary Queen of Heaven and the greatest of saints.

I'm starting to get tired, *yawn* probably gonna go to bed soon, sorry if my teasing antiskeptic seemed argumentive, I'm just teasing him.

Yes, I've been busy. Apologies to Stephen. I hope to respond fully tomorrow, both here and pm.

chozometroid

Piano man wrote: »

I suppose the reason some Catholics choose to pray through saints is down to humility, that we recognise our unworthiness in approaching the throne of God. Praying through saints does not divert from God, as the focus of prayer is always God, but asking saints to intercede for us is recognising their better position with respect to God, by virtue of the fact that they are united with Him in heaven.

Approaching the throne:
Hebrews 4:16 (King James Version)
16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Where in the Bible does it say that it's humble, or even proper, to pray through saints instead of to Jesus Christ/God Himself? Where is this concept of "through" mentioned in the Bible other than through Christ?

antiskeptic

Stephentlig wrote: »

Mary was human and was not equal to God, therefore God intervened and spared her from original sin by making her immaculate at the moment of her conception, to make her wholly pure for his Son, ( who is God ) therefore God descended from his throne to his throne ( St.Mary )

You'd agree technically, that God need not have done this with Mary but could have ensured the same of Jesus at the point of his conception? In which case we're left to examine the evidence which suggests Mary was conceived immaculately.

we know that she was made immaculate from conception from what scripture tells us, even when we revisit the greek we get a more clear answer.

Okay, let's look.

Luke 1:28 - the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event.

How does one work their way back to conception from here?

Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14

Question: is the same word "kecharitomene" used at John 1:14?

santing

antiskeptic wrote: »

Question: is the same word "kecharitomene" used at John 1:14?

It is not. The same verb is used in Ephesians 1:6 "He has made us accepted" (KJV) or "He has freely given us" (NIV)