St.Mary Doctrine

Stephentlig

Here in this thread I shall discuss the Doctrine of Mary, step by step with Wolfsbane.

The Marian title "Co-redemptrix" refers to the unique participation of Mary in the work of our redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ. The prefix "co" comes from the Latin word "cum," which means "with" and "not equal to."

philologos

Is this open to other posters or strictly for wolfsbane alone?

Stephentlig

Jakkass wrote: »

Is this open to other posters or strictly for wolfsbane alone?

well could you imagine yourself as a protestant coming into a forum group of ten catholics, debating them all whilst juggling a family at home and the other demans of life? :P because I cant. Unless wolfsbane wants to pass it on to you thats no probs, but otherwise I'd say no, unless you can persuade me otherwise? :pac:

God bless
Stephen

PDN

Stephentlig wrote: »

well could you imagine yourself as a protestant coming into a forum group of ten catholics, debating them all whilst juggling a family at home and the other demans of life? :P because I cant. Unless wolfsbane wants to pass it on to you thats no probs, but otherwise I'd say no, unless you can persuade me otherwise? :pac:

God bless
Stephen

Other Catholics post here as well.

If you post a thread like this then any poster is entitled to chip in with their opinion.

You can label a thread as "Christian Only" and there is a precedent for threads being "Catholic Only" - but a public thread is a public thread.

Stephentlig

PDN wrote: »

Other Catholics post here as well.

If you post a thread like this then any poster is entitled to chip in with their opinion.

You can label a thread as "Christian Only" and there is a precedent for threads being "Catholic Only" - but a public thread is a public thread.

well then since its just between me and wolfsbane, I request that wolfsbane Pm me and I apologise for my breach of the forum rules and for any offence I may have caused.

God bless
Stephen

Soul Winner

Stephentlig wrote: »

well then since its just between me and wolfsbane, I request that wolfsbane Pm me and I apologise for my breach of the forum rules and for any offence I may have caused.

God bless
Stephen

I don't think anyone was really offended, more like, just really eager to lock horns with you on this topic than anything else

philologos

Not offended at all in the slightest. Mary was indeed a servant of the Lord, but I don't believe that she atoned for my sins or co-atoned for my sins.

What scriptural basis is there for such a position?

Stephentlig

Hi Jakass thats the thing about our protestant brothers, is that they think that we are by giving Mary the Title Co-Redemptrix that we are making her equal to God and calling her our saviour too, but we are not. If the Catholic church taught that she was equal to God then I could see your position as being a valid one, to contrary we know that nowhere does the Catholic church put her above God. But for now I feel that your taking an eisegesis on the title ''Co-Redemptrix'', [for those of the public who do not understand what eisegesis means, it means to impose ones view upon a text rather than see whats really there. ]

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

philologos

Stephen, just because one is born of a woman doesn't tell us much about Mary being co-redeemer. Jesus saved me. Mary bore Jesus. One a Son, the other a servant.

Stephentlig

Jakkass wrote: »

Stephen, just because one is born of a woman doesn't tell us much about Mary being co-redeemer. Jesus saved me. Mary bore Jesus. One a Son, the other a servant.

Yes Jesus saved you. Mary Bore Jesus, one The Son the other a servant, who is arguing with that? I've given you the interpretation of Co-redemptrix but your still seeing it your way. If you would like to move on to something else just let me know.

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

philologos

Stephentlig wrote: »

Yes Jesus saved you. Mary Bore Jesus, one The Son the other a servant, who is arguing with that? I've given you the interpretation of Co-redemptrix but your still seeing it your way. If you would like to move on to something else just let me know.

I see it in this way, because I believe that Jesus paid for my sins in full.

Stephentlig wrote: »

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Indeed, this is grief. The disciples grieved too, does this mean that they were co-redeemers too?

Stephentlig

I see it in this way, because I believe that Jesus paid for my sins in full.

of course the Catholic church beleives that Jesus did this also and that we can lose our salvation too, however that is another topic/debate

your still in your stubborn system of Belief that we are saying that Mary is equal to God when the Catholic church does not teach this at all, thats where you err.

Indeed, this is grief. The disciples grieved too, does this mean that they were co-redeemers too?

St.Mary plays a unique role in the Catholic church which is why they put more emphasis on her being Co-redemptrix. She is the greatest of all saints ( which would bring us to another Marion Doctrine ).

to show how we all participate in Christ sufferings Paul says ''I complete in my body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, the church ( col 1:24 ). Was anything lacking in the sufferings of Christ? Of course not. Paul is teaching us that God invites us to participate in the work of Jesus Christ, whether it be through intercession, suffering, works of charity and so forth.

philologos

Stephentlig wrote: »

of course the Catholic church beleives that Jesus did this also and that we can lose our salvation too, however that is another topic/debate

your still in your stubborn system of Belief that we are saying that Mary is equal to God when the Catholic church does not teach this at all, thats where you err.

I'm believing in what I can account for. I can't account for extra-Biblical teachings concerning co-redemption. I've never said that Mary is equal to God, what I do say is that Mary was a servant to God, but that is all.

Stephentlig wrote: »

St.Mary plays a unique role in the Catholic church which is why they put more emphasis on her being Co-redemptrix. She is the greatest of all saints ( which would bring us to another Marion Doctrine ).

All the Apostles served a unique role.

Stephentlig wrote: »

to show how we all participate in Christ sufferings Paul says ''I complete in my body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, the church ( col 1:24 ). Was anything lacking in the sufferings of Christ? Of course not. Paul is teaching us that God invites us to participate in the work of Jesus Christ, whether it be through intercession, suffering, works of charity and so forth.

I agree that Paul encourages us to be as Christ to others, and to be a part of Christ's body on earth. I don't believe it is necessary to regard Mary as co-redeemer.

Stephentlig

I'm believing in what I can account for. I can't account for extra-Biblical teachings concerning co-redemption. I've never said that Mary is equal to God, what I do say is that Mary was a servant to God, but that is all.

All the Apostles served a unique role.

I agree that Paul encourages us to be as Christ to others, and to be a part of Christ's body on earth. I don't believe it is necessary to regard Mary as co-redeemer.

You dont beleive in Mary being equal to God and neither do the Catholic Church, but I suspect you do beleive that the Catholic church puts her in that light? as in your earliar post you said "Mary was indeed a servant of the Lord, but I don't believe that she atoned for my sins or co-atoned for my sins."


St.Mary being Co-Redemptrix is biblical though, but in order for you to regard her as Co-redeemer you must first come to understanding how she plays an important unique role as Queen, Medatrix etc etc and how she is the greatest disciple of all and above all the angels. Your obviously not gonna move, but its not my duty to change you, only God can do that, my duty in this thread is to explain the many errors or views protestants have of my Catholic faith.

If you wish to move on to the next marion doctrine such as ''Medatrix'' then thats no problem. I'm off out now, thank you for your chat this morning, and I humbly request that you pray for me as I shall pray for you also.

God bless and take care.
Stephen

philologos

Stephentlig wrote: »

You dont beleive in Mary being equal to God and neither do the Catholic Church, but I suspect you do beleive that the Catholic church puts her in that light? as in your earliar post you said "Mary was indeed a servant of the Lord, but I don't believe that she atoned for my sins or co-atoned for my sins."

I don't believe in anything more than Mary being a humble servant to the Lord.

Stephentlig wrote: »

St.Mary being Co-Redemptrix is biblical though, but in order for you to regard her as Co-redeemer you must first come to understanding how she plays an important unique role as Queen, Medatrix etc etc and how she is the greatest disciple of all and above all the angels. Your obviously not gonna move, but its not my duty to change you, only God can do that, my duty in this thread is to explain the many errors or views protestants have of my Catholic faith.

The Scripture you have provided isn't all that clear on the issue.

Interesting as you say "only God can do that". This surely isn't something that my salvation is depending on?

I personally don't regard Mary as Queen or anything else that goes beyond what we are told of her in the Bible. I don't see how this is necessary either.

I merely disagree with you Stephen, there is a lot we can agree on, but there is a lot where we will merely have to mark our differences and leave it at that.

Stephentlig wrote: »

If you wish to move on to the next marion doctrine such as ''Medatrix'' then thats no problem. I'm off out now, thank you for your chat this morning, and I humbly request that you pray for me as I shall pray for you also.

Which source are you getting these doctrines from?

Stephentlig

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't believe in anything more than Mary being a humble servant to the Lord.



The Scripture you have provided isn't all that clear on the issue.

Interesting as you say "only God can do that". This surely isn't something that my salvation is depending on?

I personally don't regard Mary as Queen or anything else that goes beyond what we are told of her in the Bible. I don't see how this is necessary either.

I merely disagree with you Stephen, there is a lot we can agree on, but there is a lot where we will merely have to mark our differences and leave it at that.



Which source are you getting these doctrines from?

Hi Jakass I see your stuck where you are but I'll have to drop it here as I'm gonna take it up now with wolfsbane as he has just pm'ed me.

The doctrines are found in Bible and Tradition I suggest that if your interested more in the truth then I invite you to take a look at www.scripturecatholic.com and e-mail John Salza who is great at giving answers.

we have our many differences but at least we agree on some levels.

God bless and have a good new year.

Stephen.<3

antiskeptic

Stephentlig wrote: »

well then since its just between me and wolfsbane, I request that wolfsbane Pm me and I apologise for my breach of the forum rules and for any offence I may have caused.

God bless
Stephen

Why don't you and Wolfsbane simply agree to reply to each other alone in this thread. That way others can read what's written and comment etc. For example, I've love to see how you wend your way from Mary baring a son to whatever "Mary with the redeemer" is supposed to mean (assuming you think she plays a role outside the 'unique role in salvation' of baring and raising Christ).

Stephenlig wrote:

- God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Soul Winner

Stephentlig wrote: »

She is the greatest of all saints ( which would bring us to another Marion Doctrine )

What makes you think that she is the greatest of all saints? Didn't Jesus give that accolade to John the Baptist?

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:" Matthew 11:11

Wasn't Mary born of a woman? And before John the Baptist?

Stephentlig

Soul Winner wrote: »

What makes you think that she is the greatest of all saints? Didn't Jesus give that accolade to John the Baptist?

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:" Matthew 11:11

Wasn't Mary born of a woman? And before John the Baptist?

I have a response for this as I've heard it many times, and should wolsfbane wish to use it in his discussion with me he can do so. commenting in here leaves people to come in and tease me into having respond to them, meaning I end up debating with loads of different people, I like a little organisation.

were as when I was single I'd all the time in the world to have lengthy debates with loads of people these days I have little time to do so.

God bless and take care.

philologos

It is however a pity that wolfsbane didn't post here rather than in PM.

keano_afc

Jakkass wrote: »

It is however a pity that wolfsbane didn't post here rather than in PM.

Indeed.

@Stephen: Do you think it is a sin NOT to pray to Mary and elevate her status? I'm at a loss, and always have been, to see the basic point in praying to Mary. After all, she was a sinner just like the rest of us. Do you think God will hold us accountable if we dont treat her more special than the apostles, say?

postcynical

Stephentlig wrote: »

I have a response for this as I've heard it many times, and should wolsfbane wish to use it in his discussion with me he can do so. commenting in here leaves people to come in and tease me into having respond to them, meaning I end up debating with loads of different people, I like a little organisation.

were as when I was single I'd all the time in the world to have lengthy debates with loads of people these days I have little time to do so.

God bless and take care.

Stephen, as a Catholic I think this is a real pity. I'd love to see a knowledgeable Catholic defend and explain our church's position. I wish you and wolfsbane would reconsider.

I myself recently got a reading list that will keep me busy until the summer. I spoke with a priest in confession about some issues I had related to heresy. It was precisely wolfsbane's incisive questioning which led me to try and deepen my own knowledge of Catholic teachings. And next summer please God I'm going to pwn wolfsbane's arguments here:D and wolfsbane and I will pray the mysteries of light together.

santing

In practice, Mary receives more devotion, more worship than God the Father, the Son and the Spirit together. Think about the Rosary - more devotion time ("prayers") to Mary than to God.

The Rosary gives Mary great power, either equal or greater than God, the following are quoted from the 15 promises:

2) I promise My special protection and the greatest graces to all who shall recite the Rosary.
5) The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary shall not perish.
6) Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries, shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death. If he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God and become worthy of eternal life.
7) Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.
8) Those who are faithful in reciting the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces. At the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.
9) I shall deliver from Purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
10) The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.
11) You shall obtain all you ask of Me by the recitation of the Rosary.
12) All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by Me in their necessities.

Stephentlig

postcynical wrote: »

Stephen, as a Catholic I think this is a real pity. I'd love to see a knowledgeable Catholic defend and explain our church's position. I wish you and wolfsbane would reconsider.

I myself recently got a reading list that will keep me busy until the summer. I spoke with a priest in confession about some issues I had related to heresy. It was precisely wolfsbane's incisive questioning which led me to try and deepen my own knowledge of Catholic teachings. And next summer please God I'm going to pwn wolfsbane's arguments here:D and wolfsbane and I will pray the mysteries of light together.

I am not Knowledgable at all, if what I say is correct though and conforms to the truth then it came not from me but from the Holy Spirit. This year I got accepted into the Maryvale institute of theology for my B.A in Divinity unfortuntately I could not attend because my funding from SVP didnt come through, which is funny because I was gonna go for the government grant and someone mentioned SVP and when I did go with them they said at the last minute that they could only pay some of the fee and not for the full year.

I've debated before with protestant theologian ''Eric Landstorm'' on this subject and was succesful in doing so, therefore dont see the problem in any Catholic (knowledgable or not) having to retort and defend their faith.

I hope you enjoy your lesson from the priest, and thank you for your humbling post.

PDN

Stephentlig wrote: »

I've debated before with protestant theologian ''Eric Landstorm'' on this subject and was succesful in doing so,

Do you mean Eric Landstrom? Eric is a stockbroker who enthusiastically posts on the subject of evangelism & apologetics. It would be stretching it a bit to call him a 'theologian' - but he is fairly knowledgable and serves as one of the Directors of CARM - an Apologetics Ministry.

antiskeptic

Stephentlig wrote: »

I've debated before with protestant theologian ''Eric Landstorm'' on this subject and was succesful in doing so, therefore dont see the problem in any Catholic (knowledgable or not) having to retort and defend their faith.

Was this debate a public one (on CARM for instance)?

antiskeptic

PDN wrote: »

Do you mean Eric Landstrom? Eric is a stockbroker who enthusiastically posts on the subject of evangelism & apologetics. It would be stretching it a bit to call him a 'theologian' - but he is fairly knowledgable and serves as one of the Directors of CARM - an Apologetics Ministry.

IIRC, his CARM avatar describes him(self) as a "Full Contact Theologian" so Stephen is probably warranted in supposing him so.

Stephentlig

PDN wrote: »

Do you mean Eric Landstrom? Eric is a stockbroker who enthusiastically posts on the subject of evangelism & apologetics. It would be stretching it a bit to call him a 'theologian' - but he is fairly knowledgable and serves as one of the Directors of CARM - an Apologetics Ministry.

Really? someone told me he was a protestant theologian lol. He was very good, it had to do with praying to the saints, it was sometime last year when he came into the thread claiming we couldnt pray to the dead, I thought his knowledge of scripture was good but his exegesis of it very poor indeed. :pac:

I also had public discussions on the immaculate conception in the RC forum, I havnt visited carm that much in a long time, its a good site for anyone wanting to learn more, it certainly taught me a few things

I always tryed to get people into the private debate forum but for some reason nobody was ever interested.

antiskeptic

Stephentlig wrote: »

Really? someone told me he was a protestant theologian lol. He was very good, it had to do with praying to the saints, it was sometime last year when he came into the thread claiming we couldnt pray to the dead, I thought his knowledge of scripture was good but his exegesis of it very poor indeed. :pac:

That doesn't sound like the Eric I'm familiar with. Have you a link to that discussion?

Piano man

Hey!
Have a look at this article - it explains pretty clearly the Catholic basis for Mary's Queenship.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp
God bless:)

santing

Piano man wrote: »

Hey!
Have a look at this article - it explains pretty clearly the Catholic basis for Mary's Queenship.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp
God bless:)

It doesn't explain how Mary can be part of the Church (the Bride of Christ) and simultaneously be the Queen/Mother...

Piano man

santing wrote: »

It doesn't explain how Mary can be part of the Church (the Bride of Christ) and simultaneously be the Queen/Mother...

I didn't realise this was an issue. Mary was the one person who was nearest Jesus for His whole life, she was his most devoted follower, she bore Him in her womb, nourished His vocation and stuck by Him even on the Cross and afterwards; of course she is part of the Church. To use a human analogy, can someone be married and simultaneously have a mother? Of course!
And from a previous point you made about the Rosary, it is incorrect to say that we pray to Mary, it is more correct to say we pray through her. Why? Here's a reason to add to the many in the article I referenced.
In the Magnificat, Mary says 'My soul doth magnify the Lord'. Mary is the prime example of human purity and how a human can be transformed by Love. So she is as close as possible to God as it is possible for a human to be. So asking Mary to intercede for us is just us recognising that her prayers are better than ours by virtue of her unique relationship with God.
And we don't worship Mary, we honour the mother of our Saviour, as Jesus did Himself.
God bless:)

homer911

Piano man wrote: »

Mary was the one person who was nearest Jesus for His whole life, she was his most devoted follower,

..yet there is virtually no mention of her in the Gospels during Jesus' years of ministry

And from a previous point you made about the Rosary, it is incorrect to say that we pray to Mary, it is more correct to say we pray through her.

Protestants wouldnt see any difference. Jesus is our intercessor with God the Father, not Mary, we dont need anyone else.

To pray through her, she would have to hear your prayers. I dont believe there is anything in the Bible to suggest that anyone other than God can hear and respond to prayer.

So asking Mary to intercede for us is just us recognising that her prayers are better than ours by virtue of her unique relationship with God.

Define "better"

Even accepting your referenced article (which I don't, outside of the actual kings and queens mentioned), the situations referred to all relate to earthly Kings and Queens - there are many examples in history and literature of this type of relationship - not all good (Coriolanus anyone?) The idea that Jesus, as both man and God, would have the same kind of relationship with his mother, in life and in Heaven, is stretching things beyond credibility for all non-Catholics

While I appreciate the debate, It's going to take a lot more than this to convince me

1 Timothy 2: 5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Piano man

Sorry to be ceaselessly referencing articles, but I learnt what I know from these sources, and I think they are a bit better at explaining them than I would be, so I encourage you all, it you really seek the answers to your questions instead of trying to find fault, to have a look at the following, and ask the Holy Spirit to guide your understanding of them.

This should answer your query relating to saints and angels being able to hear prayers.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=409551&highlight=mediator\

And this should shed some light on the Mediator issue.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/Mary/page5

Here's a quote from the second source above that should explain:

'Even we are mediators, in a lesser sense. The word mediator means someone who is a go-between. In 1 Timothy 2:5, which refers to Jesus as the "one mediator," the Greek word for "one" is heis, which means "first" or "primary" and does not denote something exclusive. In fact, we are all mediators when we pray for one another. As members of the Mystical Body of Christ, we all share in Christ’s role as mediator, but our efforts at being go-betweens "work" only because of what he has done.

Our mediating in no way diminishes the role of Christ as mediator; in fact, it glorifies the Father, because it is through Jesus that we can approach with confidence the throne of grace (Heb 4:14-16). How much more does Jesus give his mother Mary the privilege to be a participant in the distribution of grace!'

You say that there is virtually no mention of Mary during His years of ministry, but on the contrary, if you go through the Gospels, counting the times Mary appears compared with any of the disciples, you'll find it's a lot more. Now, I haven't done this myself so I can't quote figures, but the first few chapters of Luke are enough really. If you still are not convinced of the importance of Mary in Jesus' life, I suggest you go through the Gospels again.

You say 'there are many examples in history and literature of this type of relationship' but actually there are no other examples where God would take on human form and honour the woman who bore Him into this world. The only reason the comparison with the Old Testament Kings and Queen Mothers is valid is because God explicitly stated that Jesus would inherit the throne of David, which had with it the position of Queen Mother. Jesus' kingdom is of course different to that of David's as He rules from heaven, but the fact that it is a Davidic Kingdom implies that the dignity of the Queen Mother is retained. The article I referenced explains it clearer than I can.

Also I would strongly recommend www.catholic.com as an excellent source for anyone who really seeks to understand the Catholic view.

God bless:)

philologos

Piano man wrote: »

I didn't realise this was an issue. Mary was the one person who was nearest Jesus for His whole life, she was his most devoted follower, she bore Him in her womb, nourished His vocation and stuck by Him even on the Cross and afterwards; of course she is part of the Church. To use a human analogy, can someone be married and simultaneously have a mother? Of course!
And from a previous point you made about the Rosary, it is incorrect to say that we pray to Mary, it is more correct to say we pray through her. Why? Here's a reason to add to the many in the article I referenced.
In the Magnificat, Mary says 'My soul doth magnify the Lord'. Mary is the prime example of human purity and how a human can be transformed by Love. So she is as close as possible to God as it is possible for a human to be. So asking Mary to intercede for us is just us recognising that her prayers are better than ours by virtue of her unique relationship with God.
And we don't worship Mary, we honour the mother of our Saviour, as Jesus did Himself.
God bless:)

I actually agree with most of this post. The line in bold is the real issue for me.

I believe that I have the best intermediary of all. Jesus Christ. I believe that nobody gets to the Father except through Him (John 14:9). If we believe in Jesus, we have been made clean already as He has stood in our place for us, allowing us an audience with God again.

Don't get me wrong. Mary is a servant of God, but Jesus is the way to God. It's like in Hebrews when the author contrasts the difference between Moses as the Servant to the Jewish people, and Jesus as their Saviour, and the Son of God (Hebrews 3:1-6).

Piano man

Yes, Jesus is a sure path to God. Of course, that's because He is God.
Of course going direct to God is great.
I suppose the reason some Catholics choose to pray through saints is down to humility, that we recognise our unworthiness in approaching the throne of God. Praying through saints does not divert from God, as the focus of prayer is always God, but asking saints to intercede for us is recognising their better position with respect to God, by virtue of the fact that they are united with Him in heaven.
Of course, praying through saints is a choice, it just seems to make sense.

And, for completeness, to answer that last question of homer, 'define better'; better derives from the word 'good' and as God is the source of all goodness, I think 'proximity to God' as a measure of goodness is a suitable definition for this discussion, with unity being perfection.

God bless:)

BrianCalgary

Piano man wrote: »

Yes, Jesus is a sure path to God. Of course, that's because He is God.
Of course going direct to God is great.
I suppose the reason some Catholics choose to pray through saints is down to humility, that we recognise our unworthiness in approaching the throne of God. Praying through saints does not divert from God, as the focus of prayer is always God, but asking saints to intercede for us is recognising their better position with respect to God, by virtue of the fact that they are united with Him in heaven.
Of course, praying through saints is a choice, it just seems to make sense.

And, for completeness, to answer that last question of homer, 'define better'; better derives from the word 'good' and as God is the source of all goodness, I think 'proximity to God' as a measure of goodness is a suitable definition for this discussion, with unity being perfection.

God bless:)

Mu issue with praying through saints is that if you are in ireland praying to St Mary, whilst I am in Calgary at the same time praying to St Mary, she would have to be in both places at the same time to hear our prayer in order to intercede.
That means she would have to be omnipresent, which she is not, which makes skingher to intereced sor of an exercise in futility.

Jesus however, being God, is omnipresent which means praying to Him the best option as you can do so in Ireland and I can in Western Canada at the same time, knowing that our prayer would be heard.

Piano man

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Mu issue with praying through saints is that if you are in ireland praying to St Mary, whilst I am in Calgary at the same time praying to St Mary, she would have to be in both places at the same time to hear our prayer in order to intercede.
That means she would have to be omnipresent, which she is not, which makes skingher to intereced sor of an exercise in futility.

Jesus however, being God, is omnipresent which means praying to Him the best option as you can do so in Ireland and I can in Western Canada at the same time, knowing that our prayer would be heard.

Not at all!:) Heaven is where God dwells and all the saints united with Him, and so share in the omniprescence of God.
Heaven is outside time, which is a pretty tricky concept to grasp, because our lives are so dependent on time. So if I pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary at the same time as you do in Calgary, then because heaven is outside time, Mary must be aswell, so she can hear both prayers instantaneously and for all eternity aswell. I don't think as humans we can imagine that though.
God bless:)

philologos

Isn't it not more bureaucracy though? Kind of like passing a letter through another level of paper work to get to the reciprient?

We don't need to pray to Mary, and if we have been all justified by the blood of Christ on the cross we can reach Him directly. We are after all told, that nothing can separate us from the love of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:39-40).

If I have been justified by Jesus' blood, through baptism (Romans 6:1-4) and we have been (if I am to use the clichéd phrase) "born again" in Him. It boggles the mind to think that there is additional benefit in praying to Mary also.

Thanks for putting your point across, it is interesting all the same.

Piano man

Bureacracy isn't the right analogy, because that implies a distancing of the one who prays from God. It's more like submitting an assignment and getting someone more knowledgeable to proofread it before submitting it - I know that's not a perfect analogy but the point I'm trying to make is that by going through Mary or any other saint, the prayer does not become diminished because of the 'extra level' of transmission, rather it becomes magnified, purified in the Love of Heaven so it is made more perfect as an offering to God.
Of course, again, praying through Mary or the saints is not necessary, it just seems to make sense.
God bless:)

philologos

Interesting that you provide Mary as the more knowledgable proof reader. Not trying to be petty here, and I hope you know that isn't my intention. I believe that the Holy Spirit intercedes in my prayers when I do not know what to say. I sometimes, have to ask God to help me better pray to Him. It seems like a tautology, but my mind is often set on the ways of the world rather than what is truly better for me, for others I pray for, and for whatever respective ministries, and group activities that I really want to take off.

Romans 8:26-27 wrote:

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

God offers us the Spirit to help proofread our prayers if you will.

postcynical

Pianoman, do you have an answer for the point that none greater than John the Baptist has ever been?

Piano man

Jakkass wrote: »

Interesting that you provide Mary as the more knowledgable proof reader.

Maybe I should have said 'more knowledgeable than I'. I think it was clear I did not mean Mary is more knowledgeable than God.
Those in heaven have full knowledge of God (1Cor13:12) and so their petitions are perfect, unlike mine here on Earth.
And yes, of course the Holy Spirit intercedes for us, what a grace that is!
Praying to the saints is a choice - see my post on humility above (no. 36).

postcynical wrote: »

Pianoman, do you have an answer for the point that none greater than John the Baptist has ever been?

Actually I was wondering if this would come up.
Here's the link - third question down
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/Mary/page3

Here is the specific question and answer given.

Q:
Protestants point to Matthew 11:11, where Jesus claims that John the Baptist is the greatest born of woman. Yet we consider Mary to be the greatest human creature as Theotokos. How do we reconcile these arguments?

A:
Obviously a literal, uninformed reading of this verse can be problematic. Jesus must have had a specific context in mind when he made that statement. The context comes into focus when we consider the preceding verses, where Jesus asked, "Why then did you go out? To see a prophet?" and then answered, "Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet" (Matt. 11:9).

Clearly Jesus was proclaiming John the Baptist to be the greatest of all the prophets, indeed even something greater than a prophet, i.e. the Precursor.


God bless:)

santing

Piano man wrote: »

And from a previous point you made about the Rosary, it is incorrect to say that we pray to Mary, it is more correct to say we pray through her.

So if you say "Hail Mary" you are talking through her???
The catechism says:

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

It looks like you are praying to Mary and even expect her to be in your homes...

santing

Piano man wrote: »

I suppose the reason some Catholics choose to pray through saints is down to humility, that we recognise our unworthiness in approaching the throne of God.

Humility? I would argue it is because of pride... When Jesus and the Apostles time and time express that the way to God is open, that we can pray to the Father, that the Spirit in us says "Abba, Father" only unbelief and human pride seeks a different way.

Piano man

santing wrote: »

So if you say "Hail Mary" you are talking through her???

It looks like you are praying to Mary and even expect her to be in your homes...

When I say pray 'through her' I'm referring to the intended destination of the prayer, ie God. However, as Mary is united with God, to say pray 'to Mary' is not wrong. You'll find the two used interchangeably throughout any discussion of prayer, esp in Catholic theology. Of course I don't mean that Mary 'is' God, but I do mean that she has a position of unique dignity in the Kingdom of God.
If I was asking you to deliver a message to someone, I would send it 'through' you, but I would address you directly ('Hail, Santing', or whatever:))

santing wrote: »

Humility? I would argue it is because of pride...

Pride cannot beget a feeling of our unworthiness before God.

God bless:)

Stephentlig

postcynical wrote: »

Pianoman, do you have an answer for the point that none greater than John the Baptist has ever been?

I thought Catholic apologist John Salza nailed this one pretty much.

Lidia: Dear John. Christ is Risen! Thank you so much for your response and assistance with this!

Regarding to Matthew, my brother in law was referring to Mary. That there is no one born greater than John the Baptist including Mary. So he asks: why do Catholics honor her? I believe I can explain it, as Mary was born without original sin, and John the Baptist was? Thank you.

J. Salza: Does this mean that John the Baptist is greater than Jesus, since Jesus was also “born of woman”? Because if you take your brother-in-law’s argument to its logical extreme, you have to conclude that this is the case. I love John the Baptist; he is my patron saint. But how can he possibly be greater than the very person who brought forth the Incarnate Word of God from her womb? We don’t need to be Scripture scholars to figure this out.

This also demonstrates that you can’t read Scripture in a vacuum. This is like when Jesus says “call no man father” or “call no one good.” And yet throughout Scripture holy people refer to their spiritual leaders as “father” and Jesus calls people “good.” You must read Scripture in its proper context. Jesus was emphasizing the holiness of St. John the Baptist, but would not have been contradicting the other Scriptures where Mary is also called holy. For example, the Scripture where God, through Gabriel, calls Mary “full of grace” (Lk 1:28; in Greek, kecharitomene). There is only one other person in Scripture described as “full of grace,” and that person is Jesus Christ (Jn 1:14).

Stephentlig

sorry about the big writing, I've no idea how that happened it does it sometimes, perhaps it has something to do with copy and paste? *confused*

antiskeptic

Stephentlig wrote: »

I thought Catholic apologist John Salza nailed this one pretty much.

Let's have a look at the reasoning then..

Regarding to Matthew, my brother in law was referring to Mary. That there is no one born greater than John the Baptist including Mary. So he asks: why do Catholics honor her? I believe I can explain it, as Mary was born without original sin, and John the Baptist was? Thank you.

This supports one dubious RC notion with yet another so can hardly be considered ample support for the position

J. Salza: Does this mean that John the Baptist is greater than Jesus, since Jesus was also “born of woman”? Because if you take your brother-in-law’s argument to its logical extreme, you have to conclude that this is the case.

Whilst it's reasonable not to go to logical extremes in supposing Jesus mean John the Baptist was greater than he, there is no reason to suppose Mary greater than John the Baptist given the high place given John.

I love John the Baptist; he is my patron saint. But how can he possibly be greater than the very person who brought forth the Incarnate Word of God from her womb? We don’t need to be Scripture scholars to figure this out.

I'm afraid we do.

The reasoning here is circular: it is supposed that the person who brought forth the Incarnate Word of God ocupies a super-elevated position. And that supposition is used to support the supposition that Marys position is super-elevated.

antiskeptic

Piano man wrote: »

Maybe I should have said 'more knowledgeable than I'. I think it was clear I did not mean Mary is more knowledgeable than God.
Those in heaven have full knowledge of God (1Cor13:12) and so their petitions are perfect, unlike mine here on Earth.

The Corinthians passage talks about "then". It doesn't suggest anyone is at the "then" point now. Whilst we know Christ is currently seated at the right hand of the Father, the whereabouts of Mary is currently unknown. Could you elaborate on the detail for your position?

What basis is there for supposing Mary (or any other of the dead saints) petitioning for anything?

Stephentlig

Piano man, I would hold off debating them and I usually take them to PM's, because your debating with protestants that arent looking for the truth, they are speaking to you from a fixed position and state of belief, so no matter what you say, your still gonna get a response and antiskeptics responses are the funniest and most convuluted of them all.

seriously, if I was a psychiatrist looking for a funny qoute to frame and put on my wall I'd use this one of antiskeptics.

it is supposed that the person who brought forth the Incarnate Word of God ocupies a super-elevated position. And that supposition is used to support the supposition that Marys position is super-elevated.

you see even when you slap them in the face ( nicely of course ) with the truth, they still come back with the same responses.

its not supposed, you ignored the last part of John Salzas post where he says "the Scripture where God, through Gabriel, calls Mary “full of grace” (Lk 1:28; in Greek, kecharitomene). There is only one other person in Scripture described as “full of grace,” and that person is Jesus Christ (Jn 1:14)."

Mary is the ark of the new covenant, moses brought us the word on stone, and was feared so much so that when one person touched it they died. Mary actually brings us the word made ''flesh'' and Job says in 14:4 ''who can bring a clean thing from an unclean?'' surely antiskeptic isnt gonna argue that God would let the finger of Satan touch his only son in the womb of Mary? therefore she was made immaculate.