St.Mary Doctrine

Stephentlig

Here in this thread I shall discuss the Doctrine of Mary, step by step with Wolfsbane.

The Marian title "Co-redemptrix" refers to the unique participation of Mary in the work of our redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ. The prefix "co" comes from the Latin word "cum," which means "with" and "not equal to."

philologos

Is this open to other posters or strictly for wolfsbane alone?

Stephentlig

Jakkass wrote: »

Is this open to other posters or strictly for wolfsbane alone?

well could you imagine yourself as a protestant coming into a forum group of ten catholics, debating them all whilst juggling a family at home and the other demans of life? :P because I cant. Unless wolfsbane wants to pass it on to you thats no probs, but otherwise I'd say no, unless you can persuade me otherwise? :pac:

God bless
Stephen

PDN

Stephentlig wrote: »

well could you imagine yourself as a protestant coming into a forum group of ten catholics, debating them all whilst juggling a family at home and the other demans of life? :P because I cant. Unless wolfsbane wants to pass it on to you thats no probs, but otherwise I'd say no, unless you can persuade me otherwise? :pac:

God bless
Stephen

Other Catholics post here as well.

If you post a thread like this then any poster is entitled to chip in with their opinion.

You can label a thread as "Christian Only" and there is a precedent for threads being "Catholic Only" - but a public thread is a public thread.

Stephentlig

PDN wrote: »

Other Catholics post here as well.

If you post a thread like this then any poster is entitled to chip in with their opinion.

You can label a thread as "Christian Only" and there is a precedent for threads being "Catholic Only" - but a public thread is a public thread.

well then since its just between me and wolfsbane, I request that wolfsbane Pm me and I apologise for my breach of the forum rules and for any offence I may have caused.

God bless
Stephen

Soul Winner

Stephentlig wrote: »

well then since its just between me and wolfsbane, I request that wolfsbane Pm me and I apologise for my breach of the forum rules and for any offence I may have caused.

God bless
Stephen

I don't think anyone was really offended, more like, just really eager to lock horns with you on this topic than anything else

philologos

Not offended at all in the slightest. Mary was indeed a servant of the Lord, but I don't believe that she atoned for my sins or co-atoned for my sins.

What scriptural basis is there for such a position?

Stephentlig

Hi Jakass thats the thing about our protestant brothers, is that they think that we are by giving Mary the Title Co-Redemptrix that we are making her equal to God and calling her our saviour too, but we are not. If the Catholic church taught that she was equal to God then I could see your position as being a valid one, to contrary we know that nowhere does the Catholic church put her above God. But for now I feel that your taking an eisegesis on the title ''Co-Redemptrix'', [for those of the public who do not understand what eisegesis means, it means to impose ones view upon a text rather than see whats really there. ]

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

philologos

Stephen, just because one is born of a woman doesn't tell us much about Mary being co-redeemer. Jesus saved me. Mary bore Jesus. One a Son, the other a servant.

Stephentlig

Jakkass wrote: »

Stephen, just because one is born of a woman doesn't tell us much about Mary being co-redeemer. Jesus saved me. Mary bore Jesus. One a Son, the other a servant.

Yes Jesus saved you. Mary Bore Jesus, one The Son the other a servant, who is arguing with that? I've given you the interpretation of Co-redemptrix but your still seeing it your way. If you would like to move on to something else just let me know.

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

philologos

Stephentlig wrote: »

Yes Jesus saved you. Mary Bore Jesus, one The Son the other a servant, who is arguing with that? I've given you the interpretation of Co-redemptrix but your still seeing it your way. If you would like to move on to something else just let me know.

I see it in this way, because I believe that Jesus paid for my sins in full.

Stephentlig wrote: »

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Indeed, this is grief. The disciples grieved too, does this mean that they were co-redeemers too?

Stephentlig

I see it in this way, because I believe that Jesus paid for my sins in full.

of course the Catholic church beleives that Jesus did this also and that we can lose our salvation too, however that is another topic/debate

your still in your stubborn system of Belief that we are saying that Mary is equal to God when the Catholic church does not teach this at all, thats where you err.

Indeed, this is grief. The disciples grieved too, does this mean that they were co-redeemers too?

St.Mary plays a unique role in the Catholic church which is why they put more emphasis on her being Co-redemptrix. She is the greatest of all saints ( which would bring us to another Marion Doctrine ).

to show how we all participate in Christ sufferings Paul says ''I complete in my body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, the church ( col 1:24 ). Was anything lacking in the sufferings of Christ? Of course not. Paul is teaching us that God invites us to participate in the work of Jesus Christ, whether it be through intercession, suffering, works of charity and so forth.

philologos

Stephentlig wrote: »

of course the Catholic church beleives that Jesus did this also and that we can lose our salvation too, however that is another topic/debate

your still in your stubborn system of Belief that we are saying that Mary is equal to God when the Catholic church does not teach this at all, thats where you err.

I'm believing in what I can account for. I can't account for extra-Biblical teachings concerning co-redemption. I've never said that Mary is equal to God, what I do say is that Mary was a servant to God, but that is all.

Stephentlig wrote: »

St.Mary plays a unique role in the Catholic church which is why they put more emphasis on her being Co-redemptrix. She is the greatest of all saints ( which would bring us to another Marion Doctrine ).

All the Apostles served a unique role.

Stephentlig wrote: »

to show how we all participate in Christ sufferings Paul says ''I complete in my body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, the church ( col 1:24 ). Was anything lacking in the sufferings of Christ? Of course not. Paul is teaching us that God invites us to participate in the work of Jesus Christ, whether it be through intercession, suffering, works of charity and so forth.

I agree that Paul encourages us to be as Christ to others, and to be a part of Christ's body on earth. I don't believe it is necessary to regard Mary as co-redeemer.

Stephentlig

I'm believing in what I can account for. I can't account for extra-Biblical teachings concerning co-redemption. I've never said that Mary is equal to God, what I do say is that Mary was a servant to God, but that is all.

All the Apostles served a unique role.

I agree that Paul encourages us to be as Christ to others, and to be a part of Christ's body on earth. I don't believe it is necessary to regard Mary as co-redeemer.

You dont beleive in Mary being equal to God and neither do the Catholic Church, but I suspect you do beleive that the Catholic church puts her in that light? as in your earliar post you said "Mary was indeed a servant of the Lord, but I don't believe that she atoned for my sins or co-atoned for my sins."


St.Mary being Co-Redemptrix is biblical though, but in order for you to regard her as Co-redeemer you must first come to understanding how she plays an important unique role as Queen, Medatrix etc etc and how she is the greatest disciple of all and above all the angels. Your obviously not gonna move, but its not my duty to change you, only God can do that, my duty in this thread is to explain the many errors or views protestants have of my Catholic faith.

If you wish to move on to the next marion doctrine such as ''Medatrix'' then thats no problem. I'm off out now, thank you for your chat this morning, and I humbly request that you pray for me as I shall pray for you also.

God bless and take care.
Stephen

philologos

Stephentlig wrote: »

You dont beleive in Mary being equal to God and neither do the Catholic Church, but I suspect you do beleive that the Catholic church puts her in that light? as in your earliar post you said "Mary was indeed a servant of the Lord, but I don't believe that she atoned for my sins or co-atoned for my sins."

I don't believe in anything more than Mary being a humble servant to the Lord.

Stephentlig wrote: »

St.Mary being Co-Redemptrix is biblical though, but in order for you to regard her as Co-redeemer you must first come to understanding how she plays an important unique role as Queen, Medatrix etc etc and how she is the greatest disciple of all and above all the angels. Your obviously not gonna move, but its not my duty to change you, only God can do that, my duty in this thread is to explain the many errors or views protestants have of my Catholic faith.

The Scripture you have provided isn't all that clear on the issue.

Interesting as you say "only God can do that". This surely isn't something that my salvation is depending on?

I personally don't regard Mary as Queen or anything else that goes beyond what we are told of her in the Bible. I don't see how this is necessary either.

I merely disagree with you Stephen, there is a lot we can agree on, but there is a lot where we will merely have to mark our differences and leave it at that.

Stephentlig wrote: »

If you wish to move on to the next marion doctrine such as ''Medatrix'' then thats no problem. I'm off out now, thank you for your chat this morning, and I humbly request that you pray for me as I shall pray for you also.

Which source are you getting these doctrines from?

Stephentlig

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't believe in anything more than Mary being a humble servant to the Lord.



The Scripture you have provided isn't all that clear on the issue.

Interesting as you say "only God can do that". This surely isn't something that my salvation is depending on?

I personally don't regard Mary as Queen or anything else that goes beyond what we are told of her in the Bible. I don't see how this is necessary either.

I merely disagree with you Stephen, there is a lot we can agree on, but there is a lot where we will merely have to mark our differences and leave it at that.



Which source are you getting these doctrines from?

Hi Jakass I see your stuck where you are but I'll have to drop it here as I'm gonna take it up now with wolfsbane as he has just pm'ed me.

The doctrines are found in Bible and Tradition I suggest that if your interested more in the truth then I invite you to take a look at www.scripturecatholic.com and e-mail John Salza who is great at giving answers.

we have our many differences but at least we agree on some levels.

God bless and have a good new year.

Stephen.<3

antiskeptic

Stephentlig wrote: »

well then since its just between me and wolfsbane, I request that wolfsbane Pm me and I apologise for my breach of the forum rules and for any offence I may have caused.

God bless
Stephen

Why don't you and Wolfsbane simply agree to reply to each other alone in this thread. That way others can read what's written and comment etc. For example, I've love to see how you wend your way from Mary baring a son to whatever "Mary with the redeemer" is supposed to mean (assuming you think she plays a role outside the 'unique role in salvation' of baring and raising Christ).

Stephenlig wrote:

- God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Soul Winner

Stephentlig wrote: »

She is the greatest of all saints ( which would bring us to another Marion Doctrine )

What makes you think that she is the greatest of all saints? Didn't Jesus give that accolade to John the Baptist?

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:" Matthew 11:11

Wasn't Mary born of a woman? And before John the Baptist?

Stephentlig

Soul Winner wrote: »

What makes you think that she is the greatest of all saints? Didn't Jesus give that accolade to John the Baptist?

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:" Matthew 11:11

Wasn't Mary born of a woman? And before John the Baptist?

I have a response for this as I've heard it many times, and should wolsfbane wish to use it in his discussion with me he can do so. commenting in here leaves people to come in and tease me into having respond to them, meaning I end up debating with loads of different people, I like a little organisation.

were as when I was single I'd all the time in the world to have lengthy debates with loads of people these days I have little time to do so.

God bless and take care.

philologos

It is however a pity that wolfsbane didn't post here rather than in PM.

keano_afc

Jakkass wrote: »

It is however a pity that wolfsbane didn't post here rather than in PM.

Indeed.

@Stephen: Do you think it is a sin NOT to pray to Mary and elevate her status? I'm at a loss, and always have been, to see the basic point in praying to Mary. After all, she was a sinner just like the rest of us. Do you think God will hold us accountable if we dont treat her more special than the apostles, say?

postcynical

Stephentlig wrote: »

I have a response for this as I've heard it many times, and should wolsfbane wish to use it in his discussion with me he can do so. commenting in here leaves people to come in and tease me into having respond to them, meaning I end up debating with loads of different people, I like a little organisation.

were as when I was single I'd all the time in the world to have lengthy debates with loads of people these days I have little time to do so.

God bless and take care.

Stephen, as a Catholic I think this is a real pity. I'd love to see a knowledgeable Catholic defend and explain our church's position. I wish you and wolfsbane would reconsider.

I myself recently got a reading list that will keep me busy until the summer. I spoke with a priest in confession about some issues I had related to heresy. It was precisely wolfsbane's incisive questioning which led me to try and deepen my own knowledge of Catholic teachings. And next summer please God I'm going to pwn wolfsbane's arguments here:D and wolfsbane and I will pray the mysteries of light together.

santing

In practice, Mary receives more devotion, more worship than God the Father, the Son and the Spirit together. Think about the Rosary - more devotion time ("prayers") to Mary than to God.

The Rosary gives Mary great power, either equal or greater than God, the following are quoted from the 15 promises:

2) I promise My special protection and the greatest graces to all who shall recite the Rosary.
5) The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary shall not perish.
6) Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries, shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death. If he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God and become worthy of eternal life.
7) Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.
8) Those who are faithful in reciting the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces. At the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise.
9) I shall deliver from Purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
10) The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.
11) You shall obtain all you ask of Me by the recitation of the Rosary.
12) All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by Me in their necessities.

Stephentlig

postcynical wrote: »

Stephen, as a Catholic I think this is a real pity. I'd love to see a knowledgeable Catholic defend and explain our church's position. I wish you and wolfsbane would reconsider.

I myself recently got a reading list that will keep me busy until the summer. I spoke with a priest in confession about some issues I had related to heresy. It was precisely wolfsbane's incisive questioning which led me to try and deepen my own knowledge of Catholic teachings. And next summer please God I'm going to pwn wolfsbane's arguments here:D and wolfsbane and I will pray the mysteries of light together.

I am not Knowledgable at all, if what I say is correct though and conforms to the truth then it came not from me but from the Holy Spirit. This year I got accepted into the Maryvale institute of theology for my B.A in Divinity unfortuntately I could not attend because my funding from SVP didnt come through, which is funny because I was gonna go for the government grant and someone mentioned SVP and when I did go with them they said at the last minute that they could only pay some of the fee and not for the full year.

I've debated before with protestant theologian ''Eric Landstorm'' on this subject and was succesful in doing so, therefore dont see the problem in any Catholic (knowledgable or not) having to retort and defend their faith.

I hope you enjoy your lesson from the priest, and thank you for your humbling post.

PDN

Stephentlig wrote: »

I've debated before with protestant theologian ''Eric Landstorm'' on this subject and was succesful in doing so,

Do you mean Eric Landstrom? Eric is a stockbroker who enthusiastically posts on the subject of evangelism & apologetics. It would be stretching it a bit to call him a 'theologian' - but he is fairly knowledgable and serves as one of the Directors of CARM - an Apologetics Ministry.

antiskeptic

Stephentlig wrote: »

I've debated before with protestant theologian ''Eric Landstorm'' on this subject and was succesful in doing so, therefore dont see the problem in any Catholic (knowledgable or not) having to retort and defend their faith.

Was this debate a public one (on CARM for instance)?

antiskeptic

PDN wrote: »

Do you mean Eric Landstrom? Eric is a stockbroker who enthusiastically posts on the subject of evangelism & apologetics. It would be stretching it a bit to call him a 'theologian' - but he is fairly knowledgable and serves as one of the Directors of CARM - an Apologetics Ministry.

IIRC, his CARM avatar describes him(self) as a "Full Contact Theologian" so Stephen is probably warranted in supposing him so.

Stephentlig

PDN wrote: »

Do you mean Eric Landstrom? Eric is a stockbroker who enthusiastically posts on the subject of evangelism & apologetics. It would be stretching it a bit to call him a 'theologian' - but he is fairly knowledgable and serves as one of the Directors of CARM - an Apologetics Ministry.

Really? someone told me he was a protestant theologian lol. He was very good, it had to do with praying to the saints, it was sometime last year when he came into the thread claiming we couldnt pray to the dead, I thought his knowledge of scripture was good but his exegesis of it very poor indeed. :pac:

I also had public discussions on the immaculate conception in the RC forum, I havnt visited carm that much in a long time, its a good site for anyone wanting to learn more, it certainly taught me a few things

I always tryed to get people into the private debate forum but for some reason nobody was ever interested.

antiskeptic

Stephentlig wrote: »

Really? someone told me he was a protestant theologian lol. He was very good, it had to do with praying to the saints, it was sometime last year when he came into the thread claiming we couldnt pray to the dead, I thought his knowledge of scripture was good but his exegesis of it very poor indeed. :pac:

That doesn't sound like the Eric I'm familiar with. Have you a link to that discussion?

Piano man

Hey!
Have a look at this article - it explains pretty clearly the Catholic basis for Mary's Queenship.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp
God bless:)

santing

Piano man wrote: »

Hey!
Have a look at this article - it explains pretty clearly the Catholic basis for Mary's Queenship.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp
God bless:)

It doesn't explain how Mary can be part of the Church (the Bride of Christ) and simultaneously be the Queen/Mother...