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Bi-Polar/Depression, exacerbated by anti-depressants?
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Does such a things as 'Bi-polar' as defined by Psychiatry truly exist?...
I have trouble believing that people are born with a chemical imbalance which makes them lifelong depressed....again no test exists to prove such...depression does exist but I have trouble believing that it's causes are not environmental, however deeply buried they are.
If you want to know you should read Kay Redfield Jamison's book the 'Unquiet Mind'. She is a clinical psychologist and has bipolar disorder and takes lithium to stabilise her mood. She resisted taking lithium for years but in the end came to the realisation that she could either take lithium or end up dead or insane.
I agree antidepressants are over-prescribed and many people with emotional problems are inappropriated labelled as having a 'mood disorder' that needs life long 'managment'. However, for others such mood disorders really do exist. The human mind is extremely complex. That said, the mind does have a physical substrate. It it is not unreasonable to assume that some forms of mental illness have a physical basis. In addition there is evidence from twin and adoption studies that bipolar disorder and many other mental illnesses have a genetic component.
There is no point being dogmatic about it either way. What is needed is better assessment and diagnosis, more psychological support and education, and better resourced mental health services.0 -
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Then you said:SLUSK wrote:These day they say almost all mental illnesses are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. Has that been proven to be so?
I posted this:yes, yes it has. in the pages and pages of trials of antidepressant drugs.
This is where I'm confused:Valmont wrote:Unfortunately, it is far from conclusive. If you could read this article (maybe you have already) you will see that the serotonin hypothesis is tentative at best.
You say that the chemical imbalance theory of mental illness has been proved in the pages and pages of trials of antidepressant drugs yet you then go on to say the above? Where do you stand on this?jtsuited wrote:I didn't mention the serotonin hypothesis. the serotonin hypothesis is an inaccurate marketing blurb perpetuated mainly by advertising departments in big-pharma.
Despite your evasive accusations and protestations against people claiming that depression does not exist, I have pointed out a very well researched article that summarises the aforementioned evidence and throws reasonable doubt upon it regarding the efficacy of antidepressant medication.
Just because the medical model of depression has some success does not mean we should ignore any critical evidence and cease aiming for higher standards and better theories; there is always another discovery waiting to happen but with a dismissive attitude that will only be delayed.0 -
That's a very interesting article Valmont,similar to a few I've read before....there is at very least a level of dishonesty within the pharmeutical industry and related hypothese.0
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why would you buy medication when you have a cold? that stuff passes anyway.There are a nr on illnesses out there that everyone accepts as being such and such without any tests, they have symptoms and that is what doctors use, symptoms.
For instances I now have a cold, I don't have a test to tell me i have a cold, what I have is a cough, a runny nose and feel under the weather, I bought my self some cold & flu medication and I'm feeling better, should I have not done this because there are no tests to tell me I have a cold?0 -
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I actually read today that coffee is an anti-depressant, by raising serotonin and dopamine levels...in lifestyle section of todays Irish Independent...! ...was new to me:)...has anyone here tried it?0
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I actually read today that coffee is an anti-depressant, by raising serotonin and dopamine levels...in lifestyle section of todays Irish Independent...! ...was new to me:)...has anyone here tried it?
Coffee and exercise. Hmmm I could trademark this combination as a new therapeutic approach. Get loaded on coffee and go sprinting.
I have a great idea for a tagline:
"You think you're crazy? Have a look at our prices!"0 -
coff-ee + run/sprint-ing = coff-ing
"Combat your cold with coffing(rtm)"0 -
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BPAD needs medication.
Typically Lithium or some other mood stabilizer.
Antidepressants can trigger a manic episode of course.0 -
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Hi I've been reading the thread and I've seen some interesting opinions on Anti Depressant. I have Cyclothymia, which is considered a milder form of Bipolar Disorder.
I was on Anti Depressants for a time and used to crash really bad. Now I manage the symptoms will healthy eating and exercise. I feel much better, but still have the occasional day of an ups and downs! Has anyone else come off medication and how are they coping without it!0 -
It's amazing the difference that exercise can make for me....and others I know too...barely used medication so can't comment in that respect, but hugely benefical, makes anxiety much more manageable.0
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Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 18486
The worse thing you do is go on and off your medication! If you can manage symptions without medication, then you should stay off them, otherwise you should stay on the medication.
Inconsistancy with the medication used to mess me up big time and took ages to readjust to the medication again!0 -
These day they say almost all mental illnesses are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. Has that been proven to be so?
Research from twin and adoption studies have shown that bipolar disorder does have a significant genetic component. In his book ‘Coping with Depression and Elation’ Professor Patrick McKeon’s writes:
“One of the most striking aspects of manic-depressive illness is that it tends to run in families; whereas 1 per cent of the population will develop this illness, some 15 per cent on average of the immediate relatives (parents, brothers, sisters and children) of a person with manic depressive illness will have a mood swing at some time in their lives. But does this necessarily mean that mood swings are inherited rather than acquired?
“This question can be answered by two ingenious types of research: twin and adoption studies… Research of mood swings has produce very interesting results. The essence of these investigations is that if there are 100 pairs of identical twins where one of each pair has mood swings, some 70 of the 100 fellow twins will also have a mood swing, whereas a comparable study of non-identical twins only 15 of the fellow twins will have a similar mood disorder. In other words, the closer one is genetically to a person with this disorder the greater the risk of suffering a mood swing.
"It might be argued that the very close relationship which exists between identical twins and, thus, their very similar environments, would explain the high rate of mood swings in fellow twins. However, studies of twins who were separated from birth and reared apart show the same results: the fellow twins of identical pairs with manic depression have a five times higher rate of mood swings that the fellow twins from non-identical pairs whether the pairs were reared together or separately. Furthermore, findings from adoption studies generally concur with these results. They show that the rate of manic depression is considerably higher in the natural than in the adoptive parents of those who have mood swings in adult life. So whether we are prone to mood swings depends to a greater extent on our natural parents than on the environment in which we grew up.
“These interesting and clear-cut findings indicate the reason why mood swings tend to run in families is that they are passed from one generation to the next in the genes. However, this is not the full story. Whereas twin studies show that genetic inheritance accounts for the development of 70 per cent of these mood disorders, in the remaining 30 per cent heredity is not the determining factor. Here, childhood experiences, head injuries, stress, seasonal variations, medical disorders of the brain and other, as yet unknown, influences are the deciding forces.”
Furthermore, using neuro-imagining technology (PET and MRI scans) doctors can see abnormalities/ imbalances in the chemical interaction of neurotransmitters in the brain during an episode of mental illness. These chemical imbalances remit when an antidepressant, mood stabiliser, anti-psychotic or some combination of the three is prescribed for several weeks. The remission of the chemical imbalances correlates with a remission of symptoms.
Of course there are many who become depressed as a result of life experiences. What is needed is better assessment, diagnosis, education and better resources services so that patients can get the treatment that is most appropriate to them.0 -
An excellent post by Alias above, represents the widely accepted view on depression, by the vast majority of researchers,doctors,nurses, carers and patients.
Its worth pointing out that almost all of the anti psychiatry movement are scientology fronts....They typically try to hide their origins, but some of the language used in this by some posters in this thread really sounds like some of the Scientology literature... wonder is it just co-incidence.0 -
That isn't true about the anti-Psychology movement. Are Dr Ivor Browne, or Terry Lynch Scientologists? I personaly have little or no knowledge of Scientology. Reminds me of Berites rant that doubters of the bubble 'should commit suicide'. That's a sad attempt to dismiss legitimate concerns by denigrating the charachter of the bearer. More than a billion people believe Jesus was the son of God, doesn't necessarily make it true, my point being that majorities can be and frequently are wrong, with Group think being a major culprit.
Scans can show unusual patterns, doesn't mean that the cause isn't environmental, a physiological manifestation of an environmental problem.
Much of the above examples can be as a result of inadequate investigation, do little to prove any chemical theories.0 -
That isn't true about the anti-Psychology movement. Are Dr Ivor Browne, or Terry Lynch Scientologists? I personaly have little or no knowledge of Scientology. Reminds me of Berites rant that doubters of the bubble 'should commit suicide'. That's a sad attempt to dismiss legitimate concerns by denigrating the charachter of the bearer. More than a billion people believe Jesus was the son of God, doesn't necessarily make it true, my point being that majorities can be and frequently are wrong, with Group think being a major culprit.
Scans can show unusual patterns, doesn't mean that the cause isn't environmental, a physiological manifestation of an environmental problem.
Much of the above examples can be as a result of inadequate investigation, do little to prove any chemical theories.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the above authors would be anti-psychiatry rather that anti-psychology. I am not really familar with their work, but from what I know they would be in favour of psychotherapeutic interventions. Or am I off track on that? I think its important to note that though some of us here agree about meds in varying degrees. As therapists whether a psychologist, psychotherapist or counsellor we don't prescribe, that the job of a medical professional.0 -
Dr Ivor Browne is a former chief Psychiatrist of the Eastern Health Board and lecturer at U.C.D., he is for the most part opposed to the medical model as it has he says huge flaws. He propheses that in most cases, the vast majority of cases, there is an environmental cause for mental health problems, however deeply buried. That current Psychiatry views patients as "machines" whose composition can simply be altered and correct functioning will occur, ignoring the huge complexities of every human being. That any imbalances that due exist (and there is no test to prove such)are as a result of environmental difficulties (stress, failure to deal with a trauma etc) and that at best medication can only wall paper over symptoms and not cure the problem . That long term allievation of problems is only possible through psychotherapy or some form of talk therapy.
Terry Keane, a G.P. who has since branced into Psychotherapy is in short an advocate of the Humanistic model as well. But neither he nor Dr Browne deny a role for medication in some circumstances, as I don't. The Book "Madness explained", cant remember the author adopts a similar slant.
Look I think Psychiatry is misled in many respects, I think there's a lot of deceit and Group think at play. I'm hopeful of a more holistic approach to mental health care in the future but disturbed and deeply saddened by majority Psychiatric opinion.0 -
Look I think Psychiatry is misled in many respects, I think there's a lot of deceit and Group think at play. I'm hopeful of a more holistic approach to mental health care in the future but disturbed and deeply saddened by majority Psychiatric opinion.
That's my point Filan, with the exception of one poster who occassionally posts here, there are no psychiatrists here. We work psychologically with people, we may have various opinions on the use of meds, but it's not part of our work, at the most some therapists may work with the client around medication compliance but that's as near as we get to it. I think there have been some interesting posts on this thread, but just my opinion I think threads like this are better suited to the Health Sciences forum, that where the people with the script pads hang out. I think I said this eariler I do have some issues around the use of meds, but when I see threads like this my main concern is someone who reads it will stop their meds when maybe they really need them.
I can the other side where some may be motivated to discuss their meds with their GP/Psychiatrist and if someone can do without meds great. However, like others I have seen too many lives damaged by people stopping something that was facilitating a functioning lifestyle, and to be honest it's not nice to see.0 -
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Dr Ivor Browne ..... is for the most part opposed to the medical model
Not true. He believes in holistic treatment, as do almost all psychiatrists in Ireland.He propheses that .... any imbalances that due exist (and there is no test to prove such)are as a result of environmental difficulties
Again thats just not true. Firstly he believes that imbalances in brain chemistry can result in mood disorders (a point which some posters are contesting) .
Secondly he believes in a holistic model of treatment, where a combination of cognitive behavior therapy or counselling and sometimes medication are the best modes of treatment.
This is widely accepted in the medical and psychiatric field as the standard of care.That long term allievation of problems is only possible through psychotherapy or some form of talk therapy.
Again not true, he believes in a holistic therapy, as I mentioned above. Why would he prescribe anti depressants at all if he believed this?That isn't true about the anti-Psychology movement. Are Dr Ivor Browne, or Terry Lynch Scientologists?
Ivor Browne and Terry Lynch are not part of the anti psychiatry movement - they both represent the views of mainstream psychiatry in Ireland. *Everybody* accepts that some medication is being overused. But that doesn't mean that the medication shouldnt be used. For example antibiotics are also over prescribed. But that doesn't mean antibiotics shouldnt be used at all.
The scientologists like to pretend that psychiatrists only use medication to treat patients, but it just isn't true. Almost all of the psychiatric hospitals in Ireland have cognitive behviour therapy available.
http://www.stvincentshospital.ie/cognitive-behavioural-therapy.html
http://www.stvincentshospital.ie/psychoanalytic-psychotherapy.html
http://www.stpatrickshosp.com/index.php/the-programmes/cognitive-behavioural-psychitgerapy0 -
If Dr Browne represents mainstream Psychiatric opinion in Ireland why does he say that "It (the Psychiatric profession in Ireland) has developed in completely the wrong direction?. He does for the record in his book express regret at involvment in certain Psychiatric treatments, but he was part of a system and wasn't always easy to act independtly. He says that mood disorders are as a result of negative life experience and that resolution of this experience is the key to balanced moods.
It would be great if Terry Lynch was likewise representative of mainstream psychiatry, if he was then it would be a much better system. If you really believe this I suggest you read his book 'Beyond Prozac'. He says that Psychiatry is a 'completely illegitimate profession' ...yes very mainstream. He even suggests that post natal depression is as a result of the emotional upheaval of childbirth rather than a chemical cause.
While I'm sure most Psychiatrists do believe in a holisitc treatment, medication almost always on the front line
The serotonin hypotheis is highly quesionable, a great link was earlier provided.
That doesnt mean that Im advocatin any readers to stop taking any already prescribed medication, this should not be done without medical supervision.0 -
SLUSK wrote:These day they say almost all mental illnesses are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. Has that been proven to be so?
That doesn't answer his question at all. The evidence supporting a genetic basis for depression does not support the serotonin hypothesis. I suggest you read this article which I posted earlier in the thread. There is a multitude of studies suggesting that the serotonin hypothesis is tentative at best. You could at least read the abstract and peruse the references.Research from twin and adoption studies have shown that bipolar disorder does have a significant genetic component.
I shouldn't have to mention that correlation does not imply causation. You don't hear anyone touting an aspirin hypothesis for headaches because it helps ease them.alias06 wrote:These chemical imbalances remit when an antidepressant, mood stabiliser, anti-psychotic or some combination of the three is prescribed for several weeks. The remission of the chemical imbalances correlates with a remission of symptoms.
That's quite a generalisation and I would politely ask for some evidence to back it up. Wide acceptance of a particular theory does not imply its veracity, especially when you mention the patients themselves.Occam wrote:An excellent post by Alias above, represents the widely accepted view on depression, by the vast majority of researchers,doctors,nurses, carers and patients.
You might be confusing the rational skepticism expressed by some posters with the anti-psychiatry movement.Occam wrote:Its worth pointing out that almost all of the anti psychiatry movement are scientology fronts....
Would you care to engage with some of the posts you disagree with rather than simply labelling them as scientological? Mentioning some generalisations loosely assembled around a scientology conspiracy does not really amount to much of a contribution given the subject of this thread. If you could elaborate beyond statements such as "it's widely accepted" (an obvious logical fallacy) we might be able to have an objective look at the research.Occam wrote:but some of the language used in this by some posters in this thread really sounds like some of the Scientology literature... wonder is it just co-incidence.0 -
That doesn't answer his question at all. The evidence supporting a genetic basis for depression does not support the serotonin hypothesis. I suggest you read this article which I posted earlier in the thread. There is a multitude of studies suggesting that the serotonin hypothesis is tentative at best. You could at least read the abstract and peruse the references.
Yes yes I agree with you. I wasn't arguing for the seretonin hypothesis. I was just saying that there is good evidence for a genetic/biological causation for at least some mental illnesses. The seretonin hypothesis is just that: i.e. a hypothesis and it is as yet unproven.I shouldn't have to mention that correlation does not imply causation. You don't hear anyone touting an aspirin hypothesis for headaches because it helps ease them.
Again I agree. The twin and adoption studies indicate that there is a significant biological/genetic component to some mental illnesses such as bipolar disorder. Then doctors can see that the correction of certain chemical imbalances correlates with the remission of symptoms. Of course this doesn't prove causation - but taken together with the twin and adoption studies it is reasonable to assume that at least in some cases there is a biological cause for the symptoms which are relieved by medication.
I don't believe Terry Lynch and Ivor Browne are scientologists. I think they are genuinely concerned about the over-prescribing of anti-d's and the over reliance on the medical model which is not appropriate to a great number of cases of mental distress in our community. I think most professionals accept this as fact, certainly in discussions I have heard on the subject. Furthermore, I think that there is a growing acceptance that the effectiveness of antidepressants [not mood stabilisers like lithium] above and beyond placebo is quite limited in all but the most severe cases of depression.
Like I said before, there is no point in being domatic about it either way. There are definitely people out there with mental health problems that need medication and there are people who don't need it at all. What is needed is better diagnosis and assessment, more psychological support, education, and much much better resourced mental health services so that patients can get the treatment that is most appropriate to them.
The reason the psychiatric services are the way they are has less to do with ideology than the fact that they have been starved of funding. Politicians don't believe there are any votes in mental health. Next time a politician comes knocking on your door point out the state of our psychiatric services.0 -
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Ok, I'm a bipolar sufferer and am on a combination of mood stabilisers, antipsychotics and a very small amount of anti-depressants. My quality of life since I was started on the them is hugely improved than it was prior to that point. I can't begin to list the benefits they've brought, from reducing psychosis to something I can handle and which doesn't ruin my friendships and relationships with others to reducing my anxiety to the point where I don't feel distinctly uncomfortable simply from being in a crowded place or by simply walking out my front door. I won't bore ye with the list but my symptoms have become manageable for the most part. Anyone who has had psychosis and come out of it can tell you what a big quality of life boost it is to no longer suffer from them. I literally couldn't be where I am today, happily married with kids and stable relationships with all my friends and family, without the help of medication. I can guarantee you of that.
With regards to psychotherapy, I've never found it any use and I've tried many different therapists including some group therapy. I never found I got much from it and find that I can manage the psychological side of my illness better on my own. Others I know (with depression) have found quite the opposite and couldn't do without their therapist in the same way I couldn't do without my meds so obviously individuals vary a lot here. I've yet to meet someone with bipolar who benefits much from psychotherapy instead of or in conjunction with medication. That said, I've not really met that many other people with bipolar so take that observation with a large pinch of salt!
As regards the thread:
Reducing the meds argument to the serotonin hypothesis is a straw man argument. I've not seen anyone argue for it in years, a much broader view of the chemical aspects of mental illness is now prevalent and the days when a "serotonin booster" was viewed as the be all and end all are gone, if they were ever even that prevalent amongst front line psychiatrists to begin with.
This short video by Dr. Patrick McKeon is a good quick look at what psychiatrists actually think: http://www.videomd.com/MedicationforDepression-fv-2661.aspx
Note: his beginning caveat about antidepressants working better for some "types" of depression than others and his later noting the role of psychotherapy with medication for acute management and also as an alternative to long term antidepressant use in cases of recurring unipolar depression.
The idea that people are machines and you just put in drugs and that fixes everything is not something I've ever seen in a psychiatrist and I've met a fair few! GPs may misunderstand what they're dealing with and overprescribe anti-depressants but their behaviour shouldn't be taken as indicative of the behaviour of psychiatrists! GPs are by their nature far more restricted in how much of their time they can spend studying mental illness as a topic and as such there will be quite an uneven distribution of knowledge about how to treat mental illness amongst them similar to how there will be an uneven distribution about dealing with unusual rashes or some other more specialised topic that some GPs may know more than others for reasons of interest or previous work experience. That said anyone who has seen what a dose of antipsychotics can achieve in a manic person suffering from psychosis can not begin to doubt that psychiatric medication has a place in treatment for at least some conditions!
Much of this thread to me seems to be a wasteful debate by some posters against ideas that aren't actually widespread in the treatment world on the frontline amongst specialists, i.e. solely believing in the serotonin hypothesis and extreme biological fundamentalist view of people as only having "chemical imbalances" to correct.0 -
I've yet to meet someone with bipolar who benefits much from psychotherapy instead of or in conjunction with medication. That said, I've not really met that many other people with bipolar so take that observation with a large pinch of salt!
A page on a psychiatry education website linking to studies showing the effacity of different psychological treatments at lowering recurrence/relapse rates when compared to just medication for bipolar (i.e. therapy + meds versus meds alone): http://www.psycheducation.org/depression/Psychotherapy.htm
A fair presentation of the usefulness of psychotherapies in managing bipolar with plenty of citations for those interested in the studies themselves presented by a psychiatrist rather than a psychologist. Just to further underline the fallacy of the suggestions of psychiatrists believing that treatments other meds don't work. This is on a website that mostly deals with medication approaches (i.e. his area of expertise) yet he in no uncertain terms gives support and evidence for the benefits of other treatments.
Just thought I'd use my insomnia to dig up something more substantial and scientific than my observations above. I assume it's bipolar I that's mostly being discussed in the above studies versus bipolar II or rapid cycling forms of the the illness but I haven't actually checked!
From a serious perspective: I'm genuinely curious about whether psychotherapy alone is even a runner with bipolar. As a conjunctive therapy yes, as a replacement for lithium, mood stabilisers and possibly most importantly anti-psychotics, I'm having a hard time seeing it as a replacement to be honest as a patient. Though I have not done any research on this specific question so my doubts are baseless conjecture to be brutally honest about it! Also, the question of its use in cases of partial recovery rather than full remission after mood episodes is worth considering separately I think. Then that's pretty much a Bipolar II/NOS versus Bipolar I problem and as many here would know the meds differ to a fair degree between the two "wings" of the illness anyway to begin with.0 -
Some more on the current thinking biological mechanisms involved in major depression: http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/cmaj;180/3/305 (2009 review paper, full pdf available for free, no registration required)
Very short synopsis: Present evidence against the simplistic monoaimine hypotheses but presents evidence for more complicated biological explanations.0 -
Hi to all.I would like to know if anyone knows any psychothapist that would have balls to deal with people that are suffering with mental health problem's that they ended up with after taken the drug Mefloquine (Lariam) We have a good number of people that are in a bad way ever since taken Lariam.Some have loss the families, friend's and so on.The funny thing about it we find it hard for us to get psychothapist or any one eles that work in that field to work with us,so if there is anyone that could help us I would be greatful. One other think I would say is before anyone jump the gun and go on about Lariam please read up on it. Look up (Lariam side effects), (Lariam Honor the name) or go to facebook and look up (Action Lariam) This will let you see the problem's you get from Lariam.0
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Hippoman, no need to revive a zombie thread which has nothing to do with your topic.
JC0
This discussion has been closed.
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