Sense in banning PVC windows in Planning permission

millriver

Hello all, Our palnning permission has a condition in it banning the use of PVC windows. A window company is telling us is 'almost' irrelevant and can be ignored, due to a multitude or factors. It is expected to be removed as a standard PP stipulation. Grounds for pending change are 1. initial purcahse cost, 2. maintainability 3. value from PVC as an insulation material.4. lack of policy to effectively control this. 5. non environmental aspects of other solutions such as oiling and treatement of wood 6. County specific treatment of this issue 7. the greens gone mad. The list goes on. Personally we have lived very well with uPVC for many years and are now sold on their uPVC triple glaze solution but still have this planning issue. Any experiences on how to deal with this.

markok84

millriver wrote: »

...Any experiences on how to deal with this.

Specify Timber windows, they last longer albeit with more maintenance, they look better and their embodied energy is about a third that of uPVC. Alternatively you could go for alu-clad timber frames if the maintenance issue is what's pushing you toward uPVC, though these don't look as good as timber framed.

Here's proof of the longevity of timber frames over uPVC
http://www.cibse.org/pdfs/Masif.pdf

Supertech

millriver wrote: »

Hello all, Our palnning permission has a condition in it banning the use of PVC windows. A window company is telling us is 'almost' irrelevant and can be ignored, due to a multitude or factors. It is expected to be removed as a standard PP stipulation. Grounds for pending change are 1. initial purcahse cost, 2. maintainability 3. value from PVC as an insulation material.4. lack of policy to effectively control this. 5. non environmental aspects of other solutions such as oiling and treatement of wood 6. County specific treatment of this issue 7. the greens gone mad. The list goes on. Personally we have lived very well with uPVC for many years and are now sold on their uPVC triple glaze solution but still have this planning issue. Any experiences on how to deal with this.

Don't take planning advice from a window sales company !! If it's conditioned, then it forms part of your planning permission which is a legal document. If you don't comply with all the conditions, you don't comply with the permission, and you may find yourself in difficulty if you ever try to sell the house. Whether it is about to be removed does not matter - if if it's a condition on your permission then it stays in your case. Where will the window sales people be if you have to apply for retention and are refused ? It's grossly unprofessional of them to suggest that a planning condition is 'almost irrelevant'

Secondly, most of the reasons being given for using pvc over timber are nonsense - this sounds like a company trying to force a sale !!

sydthebeat

pvc windows look crap, they lack depth..

planning is all about how things look.

do as you have been conditioned to do, otherwise you are not building in compliance with conditions

Mellor

The above two posts pretty much covered it all.

You can appeal, but you can't ignore the condition

One Cold Hand

millriver wrote: »

A window company is telling us is 'almost' irrelevant and can be ignored, due to a multitude or factors.

He's obviously going to say that! He wants you to buy his windows! If you ask a timber window manufacturer what they think they will tell you not to ignore the condition!

onq

markok84 wrote: »

Specify Timber windows, they last longer albeit with more maintenance, they look better and their embodied energy is about a third that of uPVC. Alternatively you could go for alu-clad timber frames if the maintenance issue is what's pushing you toward uPVC, though these don't look as good as timber framed.

Here's proof of the longevity of timber frames over uPVC
http://www.cibse.org/pdfs/Masif.pdf

I'd be a little wary of an impervious material like aluminium used to clad a material like timber that absorbs moisture.

ONQ.

onq

millriver wrote: »

Hello all, Our palnning permission has a condition in it banning the use of PVC windows. <snip>

Why did this becoem an issue with your permission?

Does this follow a government guideline or a policy in the development plan?

Is there a white paper recommending this partisan view of PVC as a substance?

I'd be very interested to find out.

ONQ.

sydthebeat

onq wrote: »

Why did this becoem an issue with your permission?

Does this follow a government guideline or a policy in the development plan?

Is there a white paper recommending this partisan view of PVC as a substance?

I'd be very interested to find out.

ONQ.

a lot of recent development plans deal specifically with the issue of window material.

what i have seen generally is a restriction on the material choice in heritage towns, area of heritage, in town centres etc.

theres a lengthy thread about it here, on their ue in historical buildings, since 2004:
http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3267

Mellor

onq wrote: »

I'd be a little wary of an impervious material like aluminium used to clad a material like timber that absorbs moisture.

ONQ.

Why?

onq

sydthebeat wrote: »

a lot of recent development plans deal specifically with the issue of window material.

what i have seen generally is a restriction on the material choice in heritage towns, area of heritage, in town centres etc.

theres a lengthy thread about it here, on their ue in historical buildings, since 2004:
http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3267

Thanks Syd,

On the ball, as usual.

Y'know its funny, architects used to embrace new materials.

I suppose since all the hoi-polloi installed the cheap uPVC windows its not col to embrance them.
All this talk about embedded energy and re-usability seems to be doing the rounds now in this country.
All very well, but what the punter want's is affordable windows that keep in the heat and don't cause condensation.

I inspected an apartment building recently and saw a steady strema of condensate running out through a drain hole from a room with average levels of moisture vapour.
The window was ajar to vent the room at the same time - disaster: metal windows, not theremally broken at a guess and possibly not best of breed.
Still, it was only built within the last six years.

ONQ.

onq

Mellor wrote: »

Why?

Ah sure you know me Mellor, always saying the oddest things...

Think about it from the point of view of water vapour.
A "natural" material through which moisture can freely move.
A covering of vapour-impervious material as an external shield.
What happens when vapour migrating from within hits that shield?
If the materials are bonded the effect may be reduced or dealt with.
However timber moves a lot and in different ways to metallic substances
If there's an unventilated gap between the materials condensation may occur.
Depending on the bond and the choice and treatment of timber, I foresee issues.

Does that make some sense?

ONQ

Western_sean

millriver wrote: »

Hello all, Our palnning permission has a condition in it banning the use of PVC windows.

I am aware of one case of this being enforced last year. Local planners insisted on PVC windows coming out and being replaced with timber as specified in the planning conditions.

No6

here in Mayo the general condition is timber or timber effect PVC, as long as its not white pVC you are ok!!, In regards to the OP I would strongly advise discussing it with the planner, they may permit the timber effect or a coloured pvc window but get it in writing off them. As the numerous other posters have siad don't do what the window company is telling you, its very foolish and may cause difficulty for supervising architect / engineer when signing off and the banks could then have difficulties, a very large can of worms springs to mind!!!

onq

No6 wrote: »

here in Mayo the general condition is timber or timber effect PVC, as long as its not white pVC you are ok!!<snip>

You'd be tempted to lodge a house with an external envelope of white PVC framed hi performance glazing for divilment, just to see what they'd say...:p

ONQ.

S.L.F

OP my guess is that you bought an old house and want to put in PVC

millriver wrote: »

1. initial purchase cost,

if you are using this as grounds in your appeal it will be laughed out

millriver wrote: »

2. maintainability

having to paint the outside of your windows every 5 to 7 years is not high maintenance.

millriver wrote: »

3. value from PVC as an insulation material.

there is no proof of this

millriver wrote: »

4. lack of policy to effectively control this.

yeah that would be good to see on the grounds for appeal.

millriver wrote: »

5. non environmental aspects of other solutions such as oiling and treatment of wood

there are water based paints coming on the market now which don't have the same environmental effects as oil based paints.

millriver wrote: »

6. County specific treatment of this issue

millriver wrote: »

7. the greens gone mad.

the total amount of PVC that will have to be ripped out of houses in the next 20 years is frightening it will create an environmental nightmare, so for once I'm beind them on this issue.

millriver wrote: »

Any experiences on how to deal with this.

Yes do what the planning permission tells you to do.

markok84 wrote: »

Specify Timber windows, they last longer albeit with more maintenance, they look better and their embodied energy is about a third that of uPVC. Alternatively you could go for alu-clad timber frames if the maintenance issue is what's pushing you toward uPVC, though these don't look as good as timber framed.

Here's proof of the longevity of timber frames over uPVC
http://www.cibse.org/pdfs/Masif.pdf

The high maintenance thing people keep coming up with annoys me.

Wooden windows don't need to be painted anymore than 5 to 7 years, there are windows on Trafalgar Terrace at Seapoint that are in perfect nick and are there since well before 1900's.

sydthebeat wrote: »

pvc windows look crap, they lack depth..

planning is all about how things look.

do as you have been conditioned to do, otherwise you are not building in compliance with conditions

Planning is also about the longevity, PVC doesn't last as long as wood.

Western_sean wrote: »

I am aware of one case of this being enforced last year. Local planners insisted on PVC windows coming out and being replaced with timber as specified in the planning conditions.

I know one guy who installed double glazed PVC sliding sash windows thinking they look the exact same as single glazed wooden ones, too bad for him council enforcement thought otherwise.

No6

onq wrote: »

You'd be tempted to lodge a house with an external envelope of white PVC framed hi performance glazing for divilment, just to see what they'd say...:p

ONQ.

They cause enough divilment with planning application without me going looking for any more!!!

onq

No6 wrote: »

They cause enough divilment with planning application without me going looking for any more!!!

To paraphrase Death in The Hogfather:

"There's always time for a bit more divilment in a planning application."

Sure we'd all be bored without it!

LOL!

ONQ.

greenoverred

No6 wrote: »

here in Mayo the general condition is timber or timber effect PVC, as long as its not white pVC you are ok!!, In regards to the OP I would strongly advise discussing it with the planner, they may permit the timber effect or a coloured pvc window but get it in writing off them. As the numerous other posters have siad don't do what the window company is telling you, its very foolish and may cause difficulty for supervising architect / engineer when signing off and the banks could then have difficulties, a very large can of worms springs to mind!!!

I have the same condition on my planning. Just a quick question. What exactly is timber effect. Could we put in a cream sash PVC window with a grain effect or does it have to be brown

Mellor

onq wrote: »

Think about it from the point of view of water vapour.
A "natural" material through which moisture can freely move.
A covering of vapour-impervious material as an external shield.
What happens when vapour migrating from within hits that shield?
If the materials are bonded the effect may be reduced or dealt with.
However timber moves a lot and in different ways to metallic substances
If there's an unventilated gap between the materials condensation may occur.
Depending on the bond and the choice and treatment of timber, I foresee issues.

Does that make some sense?

ONQ

No, to be hoenst, it doesn't realy make sense.
I am well aware of the issues of water vapour, and passing of moisture. (all the reg here always advise against rigid insulation externally to quilt for example)

However, you comment don't apply to Alu-clad windows. Maybe you aren't too familiar with leading alu-clad windows, but the bond is done in such a way to allow some independent movement, there is also a gap between the inner face of aluminium and the timber, this would allow moisture to exit the timber and from here vent to the air.

In general, alu-clad windoes are built to a higher standard than the average PVC. I stress average before somebody replies with some nonsense about brand X being brilliant. Yes some are very good, but the average are poorly constructed. Example, the mitre joints on timber effect PVC is a good way to assess quality.

Mellor

greenoverred wrote: »

I have the same condition on my planning. Just a quick question. What exactly is timber effect. Could we put in a cream sash PVC window with a grain effect or does it have to be brown

It would have to be brown imo, and in a lot of cases it still wouldn't be suitable.
Check with your planning dept

onq

Mellor wrote: »

<snip>
Maybe you aren't too familiar with leading alu-clad windows,
but the bond is done in such a way to allow some independent movement,
there is also a gap between the inner face of aluminium and the timber,
this would allow moisture to exit the timber and from here vent to the air.

I don't have any empirical proof on this so I cannot rebut decisively, only question.
How can moisture be ventilated from a 1mm airgap - a droplet is bigger than 1mm.
By that I mean that once one forms it will limit the ability of vapour to evaporate.

Its not like having a 50mm attic air gap - although there will be less vapour too.
What trying to I'm say is that unless there's a free airflow it cannot evaporate.
I'm talking about north facing elevations in particular with little or no sunlight.

Once sunlight hits the metal, the moisture will be forced out due to heating.
No sunlight, low outside temp and the insulant timber, it will tend to remain.
Moisture in contact with untreated timber may encourage some form of rot.

ONQ.

Poor Uncle Tom

onq wrote: »

I don't have any empirical proof on this so I cannot rebut decisively, only question.
How can moisture be ventilated from a 1mm airgap - a droplet is bigger than 1mm.
By that I mean that once one forms it will limit the ability of vapour to evaporate.

Its not like having a 50mm attic air gap - although there will be less vapour too.
What trying to I'm say is that unless there's a free airflow it cannot evaporate.
I'm talking about north facing elevations in particular with little or no sunlight.

Once sunlight hits the metal, the moisture will be forced out due to heating.
No sunlight, low outside temp and the insulant timber, it will tend to remain.
Moisture in contact with untreated timber may encourage some form of rot.

ONQ.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem00/chem00705.htm

evapouration can and will occur...

No6

Is it just me or does anybody else had a problem with the planners instance in rural areas on the twee!!, timber or pretend timber windows, cottage or pretend cottage!! its absolute rubbish in my very humble opinion!!!:D

seclachi

markok84 wrote: »

Specify Timber windows, they last longer albeit with more maintenance, they look better and their embodied energy is about a third that of uPVC. Alternatively you could go for alu-clad timber frames if the maintenance issue is what's pushing you toward uPVC, though these don't look as good as timber framed.

Here's proof of the longevity of timber frames over uPVC
http://www.cibse.org/pdfs/Masif.pdf

I have my doubts about that report, the real world longevity test was taken from council surveys of windows. How long have uPVC windows been in use by the masses ? I`m guessing it could be around 25 years, the stated lifespan of uPVC windows.

I find myself pushed to care about the embodied energy of windows, at least as long as there is the comparatively massive waste of energy in other areas, considering that the windows will be used for at least 25 years. Just doesn't seem like a sound reason to base a decision on. It is interesting to note how wasteful aluminium windows are though.

OP, I would consider ringing your planning officer and see how receptive they are to the idea, I have been told that these days it can be quite easy to change things like windows and slating with just a letter back to the council. I would also avoid that cowboy windows salesman, making a quick sale at the expense of somebody's planning permission is not the sign of anybody trustworthy.

Mellor

onq wrote: »

I don't have any empirical proof on this so I cannot rebut decisively, only question.
How can moisture be ventilated from a 1mm airgap - a droplet is bigger than 1mm.
By that I mean that once one forms it will limit the ability of vapour to evaporate.

I understand your concern, but I don't think it's anything to worry about.
For a start, Timber deals with moisture quite well, don't think of it as droplets of water trapped in the gap, as it will evaporate directly from the timber surface. 1mm may be enough for moisture to escape, but worry not as the actual gap is much larger than this.

Here is a screen grab of a frame detail. The distance between the outer face of the timber, and the inner face of the aluminium is 10mm. Looking at this cross section I am happy that it is suitable engineered to deal with moisture. It's much more than sticking a piece of metal to a timber sash.

onq

I met the boys from Grady Joinery at Plan Expo 2009.
Apart from that I have absolutely no connection to the firm of their products.
They had a big picture of themselves with Duncan Stewart draped across their newest window product.

Have a look at:

http://www.tjgrady.ie/

Parading their brochure avec Duncan's beaming boat before the planner.
State that you intend to exceed the building regulations on your new build.
Note the trade off between embedded energy in uPVC and maintenance costs of timber windows.
Confirm the longevity, dimensional stability and re-usability of uPVC.

Best of luck.

ONQ.

PS the cost of them might put your budget through the roof of course - couldn't hurt to ask though...

onq

Mellor wrote: »

I understand your concern, but I don't think it's anything to worry about.
For a start, Timber deals with moisture quite well, don't think of it as droplets of water trapped in the gap, as it will evaporate directly from the timber surface. 1mm may be enough for moisture to escape, but worry not as the actual gap is much larger than this.

Here is a screen grab of a frame detail. The distance between the outer face of the timber, and the inner face of the aluminium is 10mm. Looking at this cross section I am happy that it is suitable engineered to deal with moisture. It's much more than sticking a piece of metal to a timber sash.

Thanks for that Mellor.

I agree those look very well detailed and would be surprised if they caused problems.

I had heard one or two rumours about north facing elevations on buildings with aluminium clad timber frames and thought I'd mention it in general terms.

ONQ.

Mellor

no worries ONQ.

To be clear to any lay-people reading. The above photo is taken from a highly regard manufacturer. A poor quaility product may cause problems. Luckily the higher manufacturing cost has kept the cowboys away from Alu-Clad. But at some stage, the knock offs will arrive.
Buyer beware

sydthebeat

Mellor wrote: »

no worries ONQ.

To be clear to any lay-people reading. The above photo is taken from a highly regard manufacturer. A poor quaility product may cause problems. Luckily the higher manufacturing cost has kept the cowboys away from Alu-Clad. But at some stage, the knock offs will arrive.
Buyer beware

just as an add-on to this.

Some manufacturers use bonded timber strips similar to engineered flooring in their alu-clad windows. This engineered timber also helps to act against any possible warping or twisting that a solid piece may experience, and also aids in keeping moisture from the cavity between the aluminium and timber.

greenoverred

Mellor wrote: »

It would have to be brown imo, and in a lot of cases it still wouldn't be suitable.
Check with your planning dept

Ok, Contacted the planning crowd to discuss this with them. The phrase tits on a bull comes to mind.

Didnt want to assist me any way at all. I asked about timber effect window and he said its exactly what it says it is. The colour has to be brown.

I then asked about aluclad windows and he tells me he doesnt know what they are and to send him some examples so he can see how they fit into a rural environment.

Surely he knows what an alu clad window is.

So after this very unhelpful call. does anyone know what I should do.
I hate the brown pvc windows. I dont mind wooden windows but the window companys tell me they are high maintenance and would have to be painted every couple of years.

muffler

greenoverred wrote: »

but the window companys tell me they are high maintenance and would have to be painted every couple of years.

That would be the PVC window companies I take it?

mickdw

I dont agree at all with you guys about timber windows having little maintenance requirement.
They have been a nightmare over the last 20 years in general. For appearance only, they need painting every year not to mention the requirement to paint to keep them in suitable condition.
Hardwood front doors for example being produced by some of the top companies in ireland are known for serious problems re warping and Ive lost count of the number of doors Ive seen completely replaced due to warping. Absolute disaster imo.

justflow1983

mickdw wrote: »

I dont agree at all with you guys about timber windows having little maintenance requirement.
They have been a nightmare over the last 20 years in general. For appearance only, they need painting every year not to mention the requirement to paint to keep them in suitable condition.
Hardwood front doors for example being produced by some of the top companies in ireland are known for serious problems re warping and Ive lost count of the number of doors Ive seen completely replaced due to warping. Absolute disaster imo.

First of all, Hardwood doors and timber windows are very different animals, I wouldn't use them for comparison. Windows use smaller timbers less prone to warping and are a more highly engineered product. Hardwood doors have huge dimensional stability problems unless they're made with traditional methods that give the wood float.

I have never known a timber window to need yearly painting. Even untreated raw timber cladding will look fine for much longer than that. I don't know what the "last 20 years" has to do with it, I worked on a refurb where the original windows from the 1860s were still in place and still OK, we just added brush seals to them. Its a bit of maintenance every few years, just as you have on the rest of a house.

The "green" credentials of timber are fairly solid. Trees sequester carbon, using them in buildings acts as a way to lock it in somewhere for a long term. It depends on the timber source, but as timber windows perform better thermally, last longer (25 yrs is about your limit on uPVC), and are a natural material its a great option.

The problem with uPVC has to do with chemicals it offgasses. It depends on whether you care about breathing it really, since we breathe nasty stuff all day regardless. The movement to get rid of the stuff has more to do with the fact that these chemicals leach into groundwater for a long time after disposal. The chemicals mimic natural hormones and can cause developmental problems in aquatic animals and possibly humans as well who drink that water. That and they really do look cheap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride#Health_and_safety

greenoverred

muffler wrote: »

That would be the PVC window companies I take it?

No. Actually it was NorDan and rationel that told me this

S.L.F

greenoverred wrote: »

I dont mind wooden windows but the window companys tell me they are high maintenance and would have to be painted every couple of years.

Just to get the record straight with oil based paint you need to paint your windows every 5 to 7 years.

I'm going to assume the people who told you they have to be painted every year are salesmen...well how would they know?

mickdw wrote: »

they need painting every year not to mention the requirement to paint to keep them in suitable condition.

Can you show me something that says they have to be painted every year.

Now if you were talking about applying the likes of Sadolin Natur then it would once a year but Sadolin Natur is extremely easy to apply.

justflow1983 wrote: »

Hardwood doors have huge dimensional stability problems unless they're made with traditional methods that give the wood float.

I do know of one company that used to send doors out where they put silicone into the groove a panel goes into and their doors were always swelling up and they could not understand why this was happening.

I explained to them the reason why was they were not allowing for expansion, (so simple when you think about it) the result was one guy got let go for lying on his CV about having been trained properly and a bunch of carpenters were sent around to the various houses to remove the silicone

justflow1983 wrote: »

I have never known a timber window to need yearly painting. Even untreated raw timber cladding will look fine for much longer than that. I don't know what the "last 20 years" has to do with it, I worked on a refurb where the original windows from the 1860s were still in place and still OK, we just added brush seals to them. Its a bit of maintenance every few years, just as you have on the rest of a house.

I have worked with windows that are 250s old still working today, if they had been painted every year they'd be twice the size they are now.

I think the 20 years thing has to do with what they reckon uPVC windows look ok for.

justflow1983 wrote: »

That and they really do look cheap.

and tacky...don't forget tacky...:D

S.L.F

greenoverred wrote: »

No. Actually it was NorDan and rationel that told me this

Then it's not paint they were talking about.

***EDIT***

I'm going to assume they said their windows are high maintenence

greenoverred

S.L.F wrote: »

Then it's not paint they were talking about.

***EDIT***

I'm going to assume they said their windows are high maintenence

The Rational sales rep told me months ago that the wooden windows they had in stock needed maintenance at least every two years. I presume this maintenance is either varnish or paint. Whatever it is its not something I want to be doing.

The Nordan sales rep told me that the windows he had also needed to be varnished every two year. The painted ones last longer.

Both sales reps recommended the aluclad windows.

Oh by the way I am living near the coast and the Nordan rep said this was a big factor

justflow1983

greenoverred... Varnishing the windows is an afternoon's work, although if they're painted its even less hassle.

I sent a PM with a very honest window supplier that should give you any advice you need. If you're in a very exposed location, I can see how they'd recommend aluclad, the last thing they want is for you to have a bad experience and be put off timber windows in the future.

millriver

HI folks, Thanks for an Informative Session on this one. We have just gone for planning again and I have decided not to fight it with the planners on the basis that winning battles but loosing wars is a game for loosers. Best of luck to anyone who gets a planner/coco to be as informative as you all have been here. BTW We are going for wooden windows.

S.L.F

millriver wrote: »

BTW We are going for wooden windows.

I'm pleased to hear that