What makes you believe?

Denerick

Hello there,

Personally I'm an agnostic, but have always had a huge amount of respect for the more individualistic and thoughtful strands of Christianity, such as the Methodist Church. I was reared a Catholic but I'm afraid I simply 'amn't bothered' for various reasons.

I'd be interested to know what motivates the average Christian on the forum. How can you believe? Do you often question the existance of God? How do you deal with doubts? Do you believe in an afterlife?

I'm one of these people that would love to be a Christian if I could just find a way of shutting up the cold voice in my head that demands 'EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE!' (That voice is a bit of a Nazi really!) Not that demanding evidence is a bad thing by any means, but I often find that I find it hard to trust the average Joe on the street or humanity at large with this mindset, and I've seen enough works of art and read enough books and lived long enough to know that there is such a thing as 'perfection' in this world, beyond my comprehension as a mere mortal.

wolfsbane

Denerick wrote: »

Hello there,

Personally I'm an agnostic, but have always had a huge amount of respect for the more individualistic and thoughtful strands of Christianity, such as the Methodist Church. I was reared a Catholic but I'm afraid I simply 'amn't bothered' for various reasons.

I'd be interested to know what motivates the average Christian on the forum. How can you believe? Do you often question the existance of God? How do you deal with doubts? Do you believe in an afterlife?

I'm one of these people that would love to be a Christian if I could just find a way of shutting up the cold voice in my head that demands 'EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE!' (That voice is a bit of a Nazi really!) Not that demanding evidence is a bad thing by any means, but I often find that I find it hard to trust the average Joe on the street or humanity at large with this mindset, and I've seen enough works of art and read enough books and lived long enough to know that there is such a thing as 'perfection' in this world, beyond my comprehension as a mere mortal.

I believe because God has given me the assurance that His word is true. That is the basic cause - the internal witness of the Holy Spirit.

I find support for that in the many times God has specifically intervened for me in answer to prayer, and in seeing Him do so for others.

Supporting evidence is also found in how history has developed in regard to the survival of the Jews and the survival of the gospel and the Church.

The message of the Bible also makes sense of the world we see - accounts for its beauty and horror, accounts for man and his meaning/purpose.

I only occasionally question if God is real or am I imagining it all. Once I review the evidence, I am fully persuaded.

Specific doubts - can so many scientists be right about evolution and so few contradict, if the Bible is true? I examine the way the majority of scientists arrive at their conclusions, how they treat other competing theories, and how they answer the creationist scientists. That gives me reasonable assurance that their case is far from water-tight. I move on to the more certain ground of the Bible and see if it is open to re-interpretation. I find it not on the basic evolutionary case. So I am even more assured that what I have found trustworthy on heavenly matters is also trustworthy on earthly matters.

Yes, I believe in an eternity of happiness in Heaven with God, and an eternity of woe in Gehenna without God.

Your innate sense of 'perfection' is what God put in each of our hearts. We all know life is not the materialist accident atheism proclaims - but our hearts are naturally in rebellion against God and we suppress much of it or subvert it to belief in false gods.

Here's some good news for you:
Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Genghiz Cohen

Back in the day when I considered myself Christian, it was the idea that there had to be something more than this. Life had to come from somewhere and we didn't just pop out of holes in the ground!

chozometroid

wolfsbane wrote: »

Here's some good news for you:
Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Beautiful. I read this with Amazing Grace (music only) playing in the background, and it was a perfect fit.

lmaopml

Hi Denerick,

This is a really cool thread title....and something that I have often wondered about...how God works on the individual etc.

I can only speak from a personal stance, and I'll try to be honest. I guess, at one stage in my life I didn't feel there was anything much 'out there' as such, and I just 'got on with it'. I never really felt alone though - and some of the things that have happened in my somewhat (shortish) life so far I don't think I was actually coping with, and some of it I have amazed myself that I did even....I defo 'felt' I was being held up.....I just didn't know by whom. I think God found me tbh, rather than the other way around...at least that's how it feels...

..and I'm no weak cookie..lol..

I see him in the quiet moments in life. When I wake up in the morning and just look out at the glory of the day - or when I see 'people' who seem to be full up with 'God' and his presence.....I think people who have a very deep, genuine and unpresuming or with no 'intentions' faith show me so much more about God and I see him in them...It's truely beatiful....Unconditional...

Anyway, no matter what is said here...nobody will ever be able to 'show' you God, we just approach him in our own unique way, so long as it's with good heart and an open mind, I truely feel he does the rest....and perhaps we are all meant to be where we are.

St Paul once said that each and every one of us is given a 'measure' of grace - we just need to look inside and see it and recognise it for what it is.....without feeling ashamed or looking for the EVIDENCE...lol...that you speak of so highly....I come from a background of EVIDENCE...:)

Faith is a journey, and sometimes it's rocky, and sometimes it's really hard to always try to do the right thing in the name of God, but I think when we do, then the path we choose may look more difficult - but it's not, it's infinitly lighter a burden. He carries us....and guides us. It takes practice and effort, but it's really only opening the door to him - that's the single biggest step...

Hope this helps.

Denerick

wolfsbane wrote: »

I believe because God has given me the assurance that His word is true. That is the basic cause - the internal witness of the Holy Spirit.

Hi, please don't take this the wrong way but your post highlighted some of my reservations about Christians (But not Christianity as the abstract concept.)

I find support for that in the many times God has specifically intervened for me in answer to prayer, and in seeing Him do so for others.

How? How can you be sure it wasn't a coincidence?

Supporting evidence is also found in how history has developed in regard to the survival of the Jews and the survival of the gospel and the Church.

Why is the survival of the Jews in any way 'evidence'? How is the survival of the Gospel? What of Plato's 'Republic'? Or any of the Greek epics? They predate the Gospels? Why is it important that the Gospels survived? Its not particularly unusual.

And whats this about the 'survival of the church'? Why is that unusual in your eyes? How is that even remotely relevant as some kind of historical evidence which proves the authenticity of the Christian faith? What about the various religions which predate Christianity and still thrive in the world today? How does the fact of Christianity's continued survival actually prove anything?

The message of the Bible also makes sense of the world we see - accounts for its beauty and horror, accounts for man and his meaning/purpose.

But so does Dickens! And Huxley, and Eco, and Golding, and Steinbeck, and Hugo, and Zola, and pretty much any half talented author in the history of the world! I don't see how this is re-inforcing your faith to be honest!?

I only occasionally question if God is real or am I imagining it all. Once I review the evidence, I am fully persuaded.

Do you not stop to question your own assumptions though? I'm plagued by these doubts. I'm a doubting agnostic you might almost say

Specific doubts - can so many scientists be right about evolution and so few contradict, if the Bible is true? I examine the way the majority of scientists arrive at their conclusions, how they treat other competing theories, and how they answer the creationist scientists. That gives me reasonable assurance that their case is far from water-tight. I move on to the more certain ground of the Bible and see if it is open to re-interpretation. I find it not on the basic evolutionary case. So I am even more assured that what I have found trustworthy on heavenly matters is also trustworthy on earthly matters.

I'm sorry, but it is getting hard to take this argument seriously. Spirituality and science are by nature polar opposites, but they don't have to endure apartheid. The scientific method is all about doubt and questioning consensus - this doesn't mean that the scientific method is incorrect, in fact it proves that it works. You don't have to make it into a bipolar argument i.e, 'well if science got x wrong, then surely its wrong about y as well'? I'm confused.

Yes, I believe in an eternity of happiness in Heaven with God, and an eternity of woe in Gehenna without God.

Why?

Your innate sense of 'perfection' is what God put in each of our hearts. We all know life is not the materialist accident atheism proclaims - but our hearts are naturally in rebellion against God and we suppress much of it or subvert it to belief in false gods.

I also find this rather hard to stomach. How can you speak on behalf of any atheist? Its rather arrogant. My heart is not in 'rebellion' against God, its in rebellion are irrationality. I'm trying to explore whether faith and reason can co-incide - I believe they can, but it requires a certain amount of 'leaping'.

Here's some good news for you:
Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

To be perfectly honest, I don't see why St. Paul is in anyway relevant. He's not Jesus Christ, and to be honest the way people like to quote anything other than Christ from the gospels in conversations like these are one of the main reasons why I'm suspicious of Christians as a whole. (In case that comes out wrong, I mean to say that I'm suspicious about whether you stop to think if Jesus is the centre of your faith, or if those who came before and after him are? In my unlearned opinion, the Christian religion should begin and end with the gospels that deal with the life and times of Jesus Christ)

I hope you don't take offense - that wasn't necessarily directed at you personally, but on the mindset of Christianity you represent. Anyone is free to respond and I apologise if I come off as being a little harsh.

philologos

Denerick wrote: »

How can you believe?

The main motivation behind my belief is that I decided at one point that I needed to understand if there was an underlying meaning to life, I decided to give Christianity a shot, reading the Bible, praying and exploring. I found it yielded results that were beyond my expectations. I believe I was filled with the Holy Spirit for the first time while doing so. This experience is the strongest conviction I personally have for believing in the Gospel.

I'm a curious person, I've never been satisfied with answers like "that's it", "that's all there is", "it just is". Such answers tell me that it is likely there is something else behind what we actually know. The question is, do we really want to find out what that something else is, and do we want to accept the implications in doing so?

Denerick wrote: »

Do you often question the existence of God?

I have done in the past, and I do occasionally still when doubts creep in. I wouldn't say that it is a regular occurrence however.

Denerick wrote: »

How do you deal with doubts?

Reading, finding out more about the area in particular I'm doubting. I often pray to God in times like this that He would help me to find a solution, or an answer in what I am doubting about.

Denerick wrote: »

Do you believe in an afterlife?

Yes.

Denerick wrote: »

I'm one of these people that would love to be a Christian if I could just find a way of shutting up the cold voice in my head that demands 'EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE!' (That voice is a bit of a Nazi really!) Not that demanding evidence is a bad thing by any means, but I often find that I find it hard to trust the average Joe on the street or humanity at large with this mindset, and I've seen enough works of art and read enough books and lived long enough to know that there is such a thing as 'perfection' in this world, beyond my comprehension as a mere mortal.

If we are considering evidence as material that would point us towards God's existence, much can be considered to be evidence for God's existence.

If we are considering evidence as absolute proof, there isn't any.

One has to determine for ones self what is more probable, that there is a God, or that there isn't.

Good luck with the search.

Edit: As for Paul and his relevance. Jesus gave authority to the Apostles, and the Apostles by the guiding power of the Holy Spirit elected Paul to be a missionary to the Gentiles. According to the Scriptures he had a direct encounter with Jesus after being a persecutor of Christians, and received visions while on his missionary trips. He brought the Gospel to the non-Jews in a very big way, and this is why he is important.

antiskeptic

Denerick wrote: »

Hello there, Personally I'm an agnostic, but have always had a huge amount of respect for the more individualistic and thoughtful strands of Christianity, such as the Methodist Church. I was reared a Catholic but I'm afraid I simply 'amn't bothered' for various reasons.

Hi Denerick,

As others will have no doubt pointed out, God is about one-to-one relationship (man with God) and corporate relationship amongst men (man with man). The Roman Catholic church forgoes (by and large) the first category of relationship by installing itself between man and God. Which only results in a dead church/Religion.

-

I'd be interested to know what motivates the average Christian on the forum. How can you believe? Do you often question the existance of God? How do you deal with doubts? Do you believe in an afterlife?

I believe because God has made himself known to me - personally. That's the only reason my belief has any foundation. And when you think of it, that's the only reason you believe anything: because evidence which satisfies the criteria for belief is available. It doesn't matter that that evidence in this case is non-empirical - all that matters is that you have the information necessary to believe available to you.

I've never gotten to the point of questioning whether God exists or not (not since he first turned up about 8 years ago). Sometimes I can detect him close up. Other times it appears as if he's miles away. But that's the same as in any relationship - I don't quit believing in the existance of my mates just because the relationship has dwindled somewhat.

I believe in an afterlife as biblically described. And I'm certain I'm going to be with God for eternity in a place "where only righteousness dwelleth"

My motivation to come on this forum has largely to do with sharing the good news of Jesus Christ. Rather than tackle things directly however, I tend towards talking of elements of the gospel whilst wrapping things up in the guise of 'apologetics'. I don't believe reasoned argumentation can cause a person to believe in God's existance. But I do believe the gospel of God contains "the power of God unto salvation" - and so I deliver that when and where I can.

-

I'm one of these people that would love to be a Christian if I could just find a way of shutting up the cold voice in my head that demands 'EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE!' (That voice is a bit of a Nazi really!) Not that demanding evidence is a bad thing by any means, but I often find that I find it hard to trust the average Joe on the street or humanity at large with this mindset, and I've seen enough works of art and read enough books and lived long enough to know that there is such a thing as 'perfection' in this world, beyond my comprehension as a mere mortal.

As stated, I'm not convinced that anyone can be reasoned into the kingdom of God. Nor do I believe that an anything like iron-clad case can be made from any of the physical evidences (which certainly permit notions of a greater intelligence than our own.). Rather, I believe that God must bring you to the necessary convictions regarding your position before him and that if he manages to do so, you will reach a point where he can himself turn up - and so you will believe he exists.

It seems to me that God's job is to convince you of what is called "sin, righteousness and judgement". That is something he can achieve without you necessarily having to believe in God's existance. Which is good news! Arrival at the convinction (or belief) that you are a vile sinner (for example) doesn't require that you formally identify with the biblical description of sin. It's more down to earth and pragmatic than that - all that's required is that you see yourself as you actually are when all the excuses and rationalisations that mask that truth about you have been stripped back. At that point you'll see yourself as you are: somehow rotten at core but understanding that that's not the way it should be and yearning to be otherwise - but finding it impossible to dig yourself out of the hole you're in.

Conviction of sin might not mean you attach the name 'sinner' to yourself (how could you if you're not a believer?). It will mean though, that you will be disturbed about your state and your heart and your motivations and your thoughts and desires.

You are right in demanding evidence. But the correct category of evidence you need at this stage in the process isn't that for Gods existance - that evidence would come later - after you are saved. What's required first in your case is that you be convinced of your rotteness (for example). And the person best placed to decide on the evidence of that .. is you. The evidence is the fact of your thoughts, words and deeds. It's for you to evaluate you based on that evidence.

PDN

I believe because of evidence.

The evidence contained in the writings of the early Christians as to their faith, particularly in the New Testament.

The evidence of people's lives transformed by the Gospel.

The evidence of my own life transformed by the Gospel.

The evidence of answered prayer.

The evidence of miracles.

Denerick

There's a whole lot of talk about God 'being there', or that its impossible to reason his existance - how then, can you believe? The argument can be flipped around so easily to say that you believe that an elephant with nine noses commands the fate of the cosmos... I really don't understand how anyone can believe on these grounds alone. I'm sorry, as much respect as I have for the more thoughtful brands of Christianity (Rowan Williams might make me an anglican yet!) I find it rather difficult to stomach the dogmatic variation.

PDN

Denerick wrote: »

I'm sorry, as much respect as I have for the more thoughtful brands of Christianity (Rowan Williams might make me an anglican yet!) I find it rather difficult to stomach the dogmatic variation.

No need to apologise. Everyone has their prejudices, so I'm sure we should allow you yours.

philologos

Denerick wrote: »

There's a whole lot of talk about God 'being there', or that its impossible to reason his existance - how then, can you believe? The argument can be flipped around so easily to say that you believe that an elephant with nine noses commands the fate of the cosmos... I really don't understand how anyone can believe on these grounds alone. I'm sorry, as much respect as I have for the more thoughtful brands of Christianity (Rowan Williams might make me an anglican yet!) I find it rather difficult to stomach the dogmatic variation.

Nobody said it is impossible to reason God's existence. It is impossible to absolutely prove God, but it isn't difficult to reason as to why God probably does exist.

Christians have been doing this for centuries.

I don't think PDN is dogmatic in the slightest. He's just making it clear there is evidence for God's existence.

Denerick

PDN wrote: »

No need to apologise. Everyone has their prejudices, so I'm sure we should allow you yours.

Thanks for dragging polemics in. A class act. I wasn't even referring to your post.

PDN

Denerick wrote: »

Thanks for dragging polemics in. A class act. I wasn't even referring to your post.

No polemics. I merely noted your prejudices against the views of some others.

Did you really think you should criticise other's positions, but that your own is somehow sacrosanct?

Denerick

Jakkass wrote: »

Nobody said it is impossible to reason God's existence. It is impossible to absolutely prove God, but it isn't difficult to reason as to why God probably does exist.

Christians have been doing this for centuries.

I don't think PDN is dogmatic in the slightest. He's just making it clear there is evidence for God's existence.

I think he's saying that good things happen as a result of a belief in God - to drag in a rather cheeky analogy, good things happen to some patients when doctors prescribe placebo's! Over the last couple of years I've been trying to work out whether my impulses towards God are a placebo (In other words an invention of my head) or the real deal.

Denerick

PDN wrote: »

No polemics. I merely noted your prejudices against the views of some others.

Did you really think you should criticise other's positions, but that your own is somehow sacrosanct?

How am I being prejudiced? I'm respectfully disagreeing. Its not a prejudice. Is a protestant prejudiced against a Catholic when he tells him that he doesn't believe in transubstantiation?

Please do stop trying to aggravate me. Its not behaviour befitting a moderator (Or a Christian for that matter )

Dr. Loon

PDN wrote: »

I believe because of evidence.

The evidence contained in the writings of the early Christians as to their faith, particularly in the New Testament.

The evidence of people's lives transformed by the Gospel.

The evidence of my own life transformed by the Gospel.

The evidence of answered prayer.

The evidence of miracles.

What evidence? There is none.

Genghiz Cohen

PDN wrote: »

I believe because of evidence.

The evidence contained in the writings of the early Christians as to their faith, particularly in the New Testament.

The evidence of people's lives transformed by the Gospel.

The evidence of my own life transformed by the Gospel.

The evidence of answered prayer.

The evidence of miracles.

Why not some other religion? I'm sure that there is at least one Muslim, one Jew, one Hindu (and so on) that would quote those exact reasons for their belief (change a few words here and there of course ).

So why do you chose this one?

Fannymcslap

wolfsbane wrote: »

I only occasionally question if God is real or am I imagining it all. Once I review the evidence, I am fully persuaded.

[/COLOR]

Please believe me when I say that I'm not trying to flame at all, I'm merely curious as to specifically what evidence you're referring to here?

Denerick

Please lads, this thread was exciting before somebody decided to initiate a polemics war. Don't let rip with the 'Atheist V Christian war of the internetz' thing, please!??

Fannymcslap

Denerick wrote: »

Please lads, this thread was exciting before somebody decided to initiate a polemics war. Don't let rip with the 'Atheist V Christian war of the internetz' thing, please!??

I'm honestly just curious as to what specific evidence the 2nd poster referred to, I'm not arguing one way or the other, it's curiosity.

hinault

Faith is subjective to the extent that people believe in God/Jesus for different reasons and because of differing viewpoints.

When non believers ask for "evidence", their question cannot actually be answered because the evidence which may persuade me to believe, may not persuade someone else to believe.

And that is the dilemma here.

antiskeptic

Denerick wrote: »

There's a whole lot of talk about God 'being there', or that its impossible to reason his existance - how then, can you believe? The argument can be flipped around so easily to say that you believe that an elephant with nine noses commands the fate of the cosmos... I really don't understand how anyone can believe on these grounds alone. I'm sorry, as much respect as I have for the more thoughtful brands of Christianity (Rowan Williams might make me an anglican yet!) I find it rather difficult to stomach the dogmatic variation.

I take it you'd have no problem with the notion of God existing in a fashion that is not detectable by us by classical empirical means (via the 5 senses). I take it too that you'd have no problem with the notion of God being able to render himself known to man by:

a) installing in man another sense - one able to detect that which the 5 senses cannot

b) God placing himself in the 'field of vision' of said sense.

In this case the man knows God exists. But he hasn't arrived there by reasoning it out. Instead, God just becomes part of the rest of reality which man hasn't reasoned out. It's important to note that there is no reliance on man for his knowledge of God. God does all the work.

Anton.Mamyko

Denerick wrote: »

Please lads, this thread was exciting before somebody decided to initiate a polemics war. Don't let rip with the 'Atheist V Christian war of the internetz' thing, please!??

Sounds liek you and I are in the same positions. I am leaning towards the conclusion that if there is something out there that controls all it is a dimension of science that is not known (or wont be known). I feel like I would have to step over myself if I was to say that I believed in any of the religions of the world. Even though the religious people I have met seem to be descent enough I cannot shake the thought at the back of my mind that all religions work on manufacturing consent and systems of control over people (or should I say sheeple?) which through out history resulted in wars wars wars wars......control..

philologos

Anton.Mamyko wrote: »

Even though the religious people I have met seem to be descent enough I cannot shake the thought at the back of my mind that all religions work on manufacturing consent and systems of control over people (or should I say sheeple?) which through out history resulted in wars wars wars wars......control..

I can't help but sympathise with your post to a degree. You're right, religion, or rather it's corruption in this decade alone has brought about pain for thousands of people if not millions of people. War and religion seem to have had a close relationship.

However, when we look to the words of Jesus we see a way of life that is clearly distinct from what we see from religion often.

If I may ask you a question:
Is it us that have got it wrong, or is it the core message of Christianity?

I believe it is the former, but I think we can do better and that is why I don't give up on the church.

The quote that wolfsbane provided with Paul speaking in Athens in the book of Acts, provides agnostics in particular with a strong question:
Is it really true that we cannot know about God, or is that just more comfortable for us?

In my personal capacity I found it to be the latter.

Anton.Mamyko

Can I ask the Christians participating in this thread a question that makes me most cautious towards religions..?

After you have found God, how do you view people of other beliefs and atheists?
Are they doomed and it is only up to the (self) righteous to "save" them?


Simple question-straight answer please.

philologos

Anton.Mamyko wrote: »

After you have found God, how do you view people of other beliefs and atheists?

I believe that they are mistaken, and that they are in need of salvation.

Anton.Mamyko wrote: »

Are they doomed and it is only up to the (self) righteous to "save" them?

It's not about being righteous. None of us are righteous by ourselves. It is only through God that people are saved. Nobody saves anyone else, rather people sow seeds that God will use if people are willing to find Him.

antiskeptic

Anton.Mamyko wrote: »

Sounds liek you and I are in the same positions. I am leaning towards the conclusion that if there is something out there that controls all it is a dimension of science that is not known (or wont be known). I feel like I would have to step over myself if I was to say that I believed in any of the religions of the world. Even though the religious people I have met seem to be descent enough I cannot shake the thought at the back of my mind that all religions work on manufacturing consent and systems of control over people (or should I say sheeple?) which through out history resulted in wars wars wars wars......control..

As a Christian I'd largely agree.

The worlds Religions (including many of Christian denomination) would have Jesus turning in his grave (were it that he occupied one). Christianity says to expect that Religions would be so: they are afterall merely fronts for the activity of Satan

Anton.Mamyko

Jakkass wrote: »

I can't help but sympathise with your post to a degree. You're right, religion, or rather it's corruption in this decade alone has brought about pain for thousands of people if not millions of people. War and religion seem to have had a close relationship.

However, when we look to the words of Jesus we see a way of life that is clearly distinct from what we see from religion often.

If I may ask you a question:
Is it us that have got it wrong, or is it the core message of Christianity?

I believe it is the former, but I think we can do better and that is why I don't give up on the church.

The quote that wolfsbane provided with Paul speaking in Athens in the book of Acts, provides agnostics in particular with a strong question:
Is it really true that we cannot know about God, or is that just more comfortable for us?

In my personal capacity I found it to be the latter.

I respect that and I hope religions will change to just fulfilling the need of people for spirituality, while allowing questioning and dissent against systems of control.
However, I cannot join any system of belief that exists today. Two reasons being that I have a scientific mindset (comes with engineering) which does not allow for discrepancies and the other being the evidence of history. After all, we are supposed to study history to avoid repeating the same mistakes

philologos

Anton.Mamyko wrote: »

However, I cannot join any system of belief that exists today. Two reasons being that I have a scientific mindset (comes with engineering) which does not allow for discrepancies and the other being the evidence of history. After all, we are supposed to study history to avoid repeating the same mistakes

A scientific mindset for me isn't a reason. A lot of Christians I know are involved in science. Many Christians are also scientists. There is no reason why one cannot believe that God exists from a scientific mindset.

As for evidence of history. The New Testament accounts are more authentic than any other ancient document. We have 40,000 manuscripts in Greek, Syriac, Aramaic and Latin. This comes in comparison to 600 for Homer's Odyssey, it also surpasses anything that we have on Aristotle or Plato. Yet people still trust the authenticity of Aristotle's philosophy.

The historical case for the accuracy of the Bible is one of the strongest.

Anton.Mamyko

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe that they are mistaken, and that they are in need of salvation.

See, I cannot help but being scared of hearing the same response from all believers that I have asked (I only had the chance to ask Christians but I am certain that Islam says the same)
so for the 6bn of us in this world believing the same system (but a different king) we will always fight......