staring a dairy farm

F.D

hi just wondering what the procedure would be to starting up a dairy farm, we are currently finishing beef and looking at different options, there is no milking facilitys on the farm, no quota, so a fair bit of investment would be required. looking at it from the point of view reasonable yeilding cows and looking to get as good a calf as possible, best of both worlds which is hard to do i know, suckler herd is not an option
wondering has anyone done this or gone back into milk over the past few years i know the price is down like every think else at the moment, and the trend seems to be people getting out of it

St James

given that newspapers and other media say that cost of production of a litre of milk is greater than the cost of sale, WITH all facilities in place, it would appear to be a no brainer NOT to get into milk at this stage.

perhaps you should consult your agri advisor?

There might be other things, such as organic beef, specialised beef such as WAGU or the more traditional breeds, HEREFORD or ANGUS.

You could also try open farm, pet farm, rare breeds such as KERRY or MOILED.

irish_bob

IMO , dairy farming in 2009 was still no worse than beef farming in terms of profit making and on average it is much more profitable so i would not be against getting into milk

sounds like you want a cow which is capable of producing a decent calf so i would recomend you source some quality british fresian cows , thier are a few excellent well known breeders in laois and limerick , they wont be cheap but its almost impossible to get good cows cheap anyhow , stay away from montbeliardes , they are bad tempered and they are too bloody big , with the amount of rain we get in this country , you dont want cows which poach too easily , besides thier not as good as good british fresians in terms of milk of beef IMO , one thing though , if you decide to stock with british fresian , breed replacements from A.I only , the country is full of dud stock bulls , beit british fresian , holstien or any other , remember , its tottally different with dairy bulls , you dont see the quality traits in front of you like with a limousin or charolais

as for infrastrusture , if your not a member of teagasc , become one , they will send someone out to your farm who will advise you on how best to set up a mikling parlour , roadways , paddock system and getting quota etc , might be an idea to join a discussion group too in your area , again , teagasc can help you out here

St James

agree that all facets of farming have been a disaster this year, but OP has NO facilities for dairying.

a new parlour - €50/100K

a new herd (50 cows) - €50/75K

Quota - ??k

milk at 30c/l means that to cover interest only, he will need to produce 17/30Kl. That is before one penny towards the debt, electricity used in milking, food on table etc. You can put in the sale of calves as reward for labour with €130 per calf, giving an income €6500. I am not considering AI, vet, extra food over and above grass, which he already has.

Assuming a yield of 4500l per cow, there is already ready 5/7 cows simply for interest.

it cannot make sense to commence dairying from a standing start at present.

PMU

contact jack kennedy at the farmers journal, he will encourage you and put you in contact with people who will help you!
pat

dar31

you'd be mad to concider starting into dairying from scratch, it will break you.
from your op you are very much undecided about the option, toying with it. firstly a bull calf is a buy product of dairying, a best of both worlds calf is in the middle its not beef nor dairy, these days you have to pick a side and go at it . beef for the beef men, tillage for the tillage men, look what happened recently to tillage, the price went sky high for a year, and every one with a corner of land sowed it the following year took the carpet from under the lads that depended on it(i know there is more to it that stated, but you get the picture) to pull off a new set up would have to go down the kiwi line you would have to be hitting figures in the top 15 -20% of profit monitors from day one dairying is only going to get tougher in the future may be not as bad at the 18 months gone by but i'd see a price of 25c/l going forward, ave for next 10 years. if you concider that the top 50% of dairy farmers complete a profit monitor, and the average cost of production for these is around 21c/l(range 15 - 30c/l) that leaves 75% of all dairy farmers at a loss. every one should get at least 10c/l for drawings 50,000gls = E22,730 cost 21 + 10=31c/l before any repayments are made
dont get me wrong it can be done, a strong mind and a set of brass ones would be required, but there is no point putting in the effort if you dont have the effort to put in??
little rant over xmas hangover dose that to one:rolleyes:

irish_bob

St James wrote: »

agree that all facets of farming have been a disaster this year, but OP has NO facilities for dairying.

a new parlour - €50/100K

a new herd (50 cows) - €50/75K

Quota - ??k

milk at 30c/l means that to cover interest only, he will need to produce 17/30Kl. That is before one penny towards the debt, electricity used in milking, food on table etc. You can put in the sale of calves as reward for labour with €130 per calf, giving an income €6500. I am not considering AI, vet, extra food over and above grass, which he already has.

Assuming a yield of 4500l per cow, there is already ready 5/7 cows simply for interest.

it cannot make sense to commence dairying from a standing start at present.

thats still an investment of well under 250 k , you wouldnt buy much land ( which is the biggest investment cost by far ) for that and it sounds like the OP has the land in place , thier are few employment options at the moment outside the farm gate , i dont see his possition as a big obstacle to where he wants to go , not in the slighests , in fact , i know several people in the past two years who changed from a beef farm to a dairy unit, all had to build parlours , change slatted sheds to cubicles sheds and buy cows , it can be done

leg wax

irish_bob wrote: »

thats still an investment of well under 250 k , you wouldnt buy much land ( which is the biggest investment cost by far ) for that and it sounds like the OP has the land in place , thier are few employment options at the moment outside the farm gate , i dont see his possition as a big obstacle to where he wants to go , not in the slighests , in fact , i know several people in the past two years who changed from a beef farm to a dairy unit, all had to build parlours , change slatted sheds to cubicles sheds and buy cows , it can be done

but paid for?

blue5000

Go work on a dairy farm for no pay this spring and see if you like it

F.D

we have enough land no outstanding debts luckly enough, but with beef the way it is, and who knows what grants or payments will be available in the future, it is very hard to make a profit without these payments and this is with me woking off farm also, the big problem is you are paying a lot for the animal from the start, i know the people selling them will say there not. i know you get a quality animal from the suckler cow but the downside is she is earning no money otherwise. it is a big investment but our yard only has strawbedded sheds at the moment so we are going to have to spend a fair bit of money to upgrade facilitys and i dont want to invest in the wrong thing without considering all the options.
I agree with irish bob about the british fresian and getting quality AI to get good calves,
Is there any other breeds that people are using that are worth looking at?

irish_bob

F.D wrote: »

we have enough land no outstanding debts luckly enough, but with beef the way it is, and who knows what grants or payments will be available in the future, it is very hard to make a profit without these payments and this is with me woking off farm also, the big problem is you are paying a lot for the animal from the start, i know the people selling them will say there not. i know you get a quality animal from the suckler cow but the downside is she is earning no money otherwise. it is a big investment but our yard only has strawbedded sheds at the moment so we are going to have to spend a fair bit of money to upgrade facilitys and i dont want to invest in the wrong thing without considering all the options.
I agree with irish bob about the british fresian and getting quality AI to get good calves,
Is there any other breeds that people are using that are worth looking at?

none that have enough of a genetic pool to fish from when it comes to breeding , besides , british fresian are the best dairy cow if getting a saleable or finishable calf is a priority , trust me , montbeliarde ( while a dual purpose animal ) are completley over rated , thier not near as popular as they used to be either , ask any experienced cattle man and they will tell you , montbeliarde bullocks are not a patch on a good british fresian bullock

btw , building cubicle sheds or modifying beef units into cubicle sheds is not all that expensive at the moment , you would do a world of work for 50 k , parlous are hardly ever cheap to put up though as those in the milking machine trade are like vets , thier boom is unending :mad:

pakalasa

I agree with 'Blue5000' work on a dairy farm for a while and see if you like it. You would learn a lot also.
I think dairying is the only way Irish farmers can survive if markets are opened up and subsidies go. Grass - it's our only natural advantage.

F.D

both myself and my wife have worked on dairy farms in the past and have had experience in milking and calving etc, and still do from time to time to help my relations on their farms, i know its hard work and its a routine you get stuck into doing until the cows dry off. i suppose i'm just trying to see what other peoples views are the way farming has changed in all sectors over the past few years would it be viable, i have to agree with pakalasa and dairying and try and do it as cost effectivly as possible making the best use of grass

snowman707

F.D wrote: »

I agree with irish bob about the british fresian and getting quality AI to get good calves,
Is there any other breeds that people are using that are worth looking at?

In contrast to what irish bob states we like the montbeliarde and MOX off BR fr
ideal for grass based system, big cattle able to take in large amounts of forage and convert it

they do not peak in yields like the BR Fr but maintain a more steady milk curve and produce more milk in the back end of the year with higher solids thus commanding a higher price.

we got up to €1100 for finished cull cows last year and the selling the bullocks as stores up to €100 above the fr

we have had no problems with temperament but some of the first heifers we bought were a little head strong but once they found out who was the boss they settled.

I think dairying will be the most profitable side of dairying in the future, but as with all systems will need to be very cautious about costs and inputs.

F.D

have to say i have milked montbeliardes in the past and found them easy handled aswell, whats the general opinion on dairy farming? do ye think the prices will come up much?
what will the ave price be per lt be?
what do you think the average herd size will have to be to be profitable?

EAMONNHEALY

F.D wrote: »

hi just wondering what the procedure would be to starting up a dairy farm, we are currently finishing beef and looking at different options, there is no milking facilitys on the farm, no quota, so a fair bit of investment would be required. looking at it from the point of view reasonable yeilding cows and looking to get as good a calf as possible, best of both worlds which is hard to do i know, suckler herd is not an option
wondering has anyone done this or gone back into milk over the past few years i know the price is down like every think else at the moment, and the trend seems to be people getting out of it

Glanbia Teagasc are in process of setting up 300 cow herd conversion from tillage land is reseeded building started open day early jan ???????
i do not think it iwill be profitable at to days price of milk
you will be able to get figures from them

babybrian

That Teagasc and Glanbia farm greenfield dairy has an open day of 19th of January. Im currently in the process of trying to grow cow numbers rapidly from small in the next 3 or 4 years so I'm going down for a look also.

F.D

i'm not a member of teagasc, would you have to be one to go on that open day?

whelan1

would recommend that you do join teagasc or a discussion group to get an idea of the commitment you need

F.D

We have an agri advisor just not a teagasc one, I will have to quiz him up on what information he has, would people think there would be more to be got out of the Teagasc ones, or is it all the same information.
Has anyone installed a new milking parlour over the past year or two, if so what size spec and cost did it come to, also if any one build a new cubicle shed, i know the prices were probably inflated over the past few years but it would be a rough guide
Thanks

Tipp Man

F.D wrote: »

We have an agri advisor just not a teagasc one, I will have to quiz him up on what information he has, would people think there would be more to be got out of the Teagasc ones, or is it all the same information.
Has anyone installed a new milking parlour over the past year or two, if so what size spec and cost did it come to, also if any one build a new cubicle shed, i know the prices were probably inflated over the past few years but it would be a rough guide
Thanks

How much land do you have?? In 1 block?? How many cows were you thinking??

4 span A type shed with 50 cubicles, mats and 70ft tank with 14'6" slat cost us about 48k to do this year (before VAT was returned)

3 years ago so not certain of exact costs but a 14 unit parlour cost us about 90k and we did a bit ourselves, nothing fancy at all but what a difference it makes. That includes new bulk tank and meal bin. We used pig feeders which kept cost down

Hope that helps but just in case your not fully aware I'd say that there is hardly a dairy farmer in the country making a profit this year nevermind paying tax (on 07) and drawings. We are on a low cost system with small borrowings and in the top 5% of the 2009 Glanbia report and we barely broke even.

Be VERY careful borrowing money nowadays for cows

cjpm

Anyone have any rough prices for cow cubicles and mats??

Recommended suppliers would be appreciated too, if ye have any past experiences...

Barname

St James wrote: »

agree that all facets of farming have been a disaster this year, but OP has NO facilities for dairying.

a new parlour - €50/100K

a new herd (50 cows) - €50/75K

Quota - ??k

milk at 30c/l means that to cover interest only, he will need to produce 17/30Kl. That is before one penny towards the debt, electricity used in milking, food on table etc. You can put in the sale of calves as reward for labour with €130 per calf, giving an income €6500. I am not considering AI, vet, extra food over and above grass, which he already has.

Assuming a yield of 4500l per cow, there is already ready 5/7 cows simply for interest.

it cannot make sense to commence dairying from a standing start at present.

thats based on your assumption of 30c/l

the sooner farmers realise new ways of adding value or eliminating the middlemen the better off they will be

(then again, middlemen often add the polish and dont whine as much, so that deserves a reward too I guess)

F.D

Thanks Tipp Man, We have approx 60 acres in the block around the yard, how many cows would you milk on that, its good ground with 20 acres going to be reseeded this year and the remainder on a smaller rotation after that?

Tipp Man wrote: »

How much land do you have?? In 1 block?? How many cows were you thinking??

4 span A type shed with 50 cubicles, mats and 70ft tank with 14'6" slat cost us about 48k to do this year (before VAT was returned)

3 years ago so not certain of exact costs but a 14 unit parlour cost us about 90k and we did a bit ourselves, nothing fancy at all but what a difference it makes. That includes new bulk tank and meal bin. We used pig feeders which kept cost down

Hope that helps but just in case your not fully aware I'd say that there is hardly a dairy farmer in the country making a profit this year nevermind paying tax (on 07) and drawings. We are on a low cost system with small borrowings and in the top 5% of the 2009 Glanbia report and we barely broke even.

Be VERY careful borrowing money nowadays for cows

yo!its_yoyo

60 acres? Too small to invest as much as you are going to need IMO.
Basically it will be 25c/l and thats it.
You have also missed out on the grant scheme that was there. It was for building things like slatted houses and milking parlours. It was a 40% grant and you could add your own work onto that.
If you are going to have to take out loans, I don't think it would be worth the risk.
The bright side for the suckler farmers is the new beef price grid which should see ye get more money, less money for dairy farmers though.

irish_bob

the grant scheme benefited no one only builders , anyone who waited untill 2009 done much better without any grant , IMO 60 acres is not enough to make starting a dairy farm worth while

massey 133

the new price grid is only a joke only paying for the cream of the crop. it is justa exsuce forthe factories to keep farmers of their back. anyway you have to choose if you want milk you cant have a beef. any way thanks to them b######s at the cattle factories their will be no beef farmers in the country in years to come.

stagg88

My own opinion on the matter is that if you can do alot of the building work yourself it would be a huge help in keeping costs to a minimum. Plans for lots of diiferent types of parlours is available in teageasc. Obviously there will be parts of that you wont be able to do like some plumbing and electrical work. Also there are lost of second hand equipment out there too. Youd really need to be looking at buying as much as possible of the equipment 2nd hand

dar31

60 ac/60 cows is not really enough to consider setting up a dairy unit esp as u have limited sheds infrastructure. are you going to give up you full time job, or set up dairy unit for 60 cows, run it and work full time
have you access to any land to lease joining main block
are you planning on the dairy contributing to your income, will it keep its head above water, or worse case your full time job supplementing the set up of this unit
IMO you would want to be looking at 120+ cows at a min to consider a dairy unit from scratch

F.D

Yea i would hope to keep working to pay the house hold bills for a few years at least until the milking side would be built up some what,
we have a further 15 acres attached to this block also but it was planted with trees 3 years ago by my grand uncle so it would have to be paid back to. it would need drainage and some reclamation to get the best out of it, but it has grazed a lot of cattle in the past, and the neighbouring land beside it is of the same quality and is still been grazed we were looking at the trees the other day and they are not thriving (douglas fir) we were since told they should not have been planted in that ground it might have been more suitable to ash or something like that.there is also land right beside us that is rented out so when ever it would come up again it would be possible to try and get it. we also own a further 56 acres 4-5 miles away in two different blocks which is not much use for milking but all the silage making and dry stock could be grazed there.

John_F

F.D wrote: »

Yea i would hope to keep working to pay the house hold bills for a few years at least until the milking side would be built up some what,
we have a further 15 acres attached to this block also but it was planted with trees 3 years ago by my grand uncle so it would have to be paid back to. it would need drainage and some reclamation to get the best out of it, but it has grazed a lot of cattle in the past, and the neighbouring land beside it is of the same quality and is still been grazed we were looking at the trees the other day and they are not thriving (douglas fir) we were since told they should not have been planted in that ground it might have been more suitable to ash or something like that.there is also land right beside us that is rented out so when ever it would come up again it would be possible to try and get it. we also own a further 56 acres 4-5 miles away in two different blocks which is not much use for milking but all the silage making and dry stock could be grazed there.

in that case if you really wanted to you could milk 100 cows on a high cost system of buying in alot of feed and more than likely zero grazing - - this system would be hard to pay for in a low milk price sineario and repayments to be made, however if you can see an opportunity of land coming up for long term lease on either boundaries of the 60 acre farm or 56 acre farm then it may become viable to build on either one of them, do your sums before you make any decisions, and keep in mind that you still need quota to supply a co op, this can go up if price if the milk price goes up as we saw in the 07 exchange, best of luck! we need some new blood in dairying and make better use of land resources than a pensioner making no money and doing it for the sake of it. The government isn't doing enough to encourage new young farmers like what the South Dakota agri dept was doing a few years ago seeking Irish farmers to milk over there as the ageing farmer population. Ireland has a world of resources and knowledge