Longford Cathedral on fire

MDFM

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

The goodness of people is not something I fail to understand, nor the fact the building meant/means something to them. What I seem to be failing to understand is people contributing to a fund that is by all accounts unnecessary thanks to insurance. If people feel the need to contribute to something why not do so to this fund instead, http://www.redcross.ie/help/donate_floods.php

and i'm sure people have donated to the red cross and will continue to do so..that is a separate issue
People as a rule tend to donate to a cause that they feel is close to their heart...and in the case of the cathedral we like to feel our contributions will help in some way to rebuild it as its part of our community. Its no big deal really. why question people's heartfelt need to donate to something they feel close to?

Ghost Buster

MDFM wrote: »

you still fail to understand..
why?? why, because there are people out there whom out the goodness of their hearts they would like to contribute, because it means something to them, every little helps and why not? i've already contributed, only a small amount, but it means something to me, and unlike you, i don't feel the need to over analyse the need why i've contributed..its just something i wanted to do.
if you are in doubt as to where the contributions are going then why not knock on the door of the prespretry (not sure how its spelt) and question the priests there..maybe they'll give u the answer to the questions you need answered.

To be quite frank The Irish Catholic Church dont have a wonderful track record in respect to how they handle diocesen funds or on how they respond to straight questions. Canon law, in their eyes, supercedes common law. That said I still do understand why folk would like to contribute. Perhaps if a nonreligious / non Church group were to take responsibility for funds folk may be a bit more confident. A historical or architectural group perhaps.
Personally I wouldnt trust the irish catholic church as far as I can throw them

dollydimples82

the people of Longford felt a deep sense of loss on christmas morning, and every time we pass the once beautiful and well lit cathedral we feel that loss once again, all the Longford people want is to have their cathedral restored as soon as is possible. Like mdfm has said no one has been asked to contribute to the restoration fund and we all know that the cathedral is insured but we still feel the need to contribute something no matter how small to help rebuild it. the families in Longford have many connections with the cathedral, whether its a baptism, wedding, communion, confirmation, funeral or just lighting a candle and this leaves us wanting to give something back. i am not a very religious person, i lost my way as they say, after my brother became ill and died however i still feel a deep loss of the cathedral as his funeral mass was held there and the priests were tremendous to support to us at that time and even now. as i sat in the temperance hall on christmas morning for mass, i longed to be able to go to the cathedral having not realized what we had until it was gone and as the people at that mass cried i knew everything possible needed to be done to rebuild the cathedral even thinking during mass that i would have no hesitation in giving my christmas bonus (which was 200e) to the restoration fund that wasnt even mentioned at that time. sorry for rambling!
also the possible reason for the restoartion fund to be set up could be somewhere safe for people to put their donation in rather than hand or post it to the bishop as many people were doing.

Ghost Buster

dollydimples82 wrote: »

the people of Longford felt a deep sense of loss on christmas morning, and every time we pass the once beautiful and well lit cathedral we feel that loss once again, all the Longford people want is to have their cathedral restored as soon as is possible. Like mdfm has said no one has been asked to contribute to the restoration fund and we all know that the cathedral is insured but we still feel the need to contribute something no matter how small to help rebuild it. the families in Longford have many connections with the cathedral, whether its a baptism, wedding, communion, confirmation, funeral or just lighting a candle and this leaves us wanting to give something back. i am not a very religious person, i lost my way as they say, after my brother became ill and died however i still feel a deep loss of the cathedral as his funeral mass was held there and the priests were tremendous to support to us at that time and even now. as i sat in the temperance hall on christmas morning for mass, i longed to be able to go to the cathedral having not realized what we had until it was gone and as the people at that mass cried i knew everything possible needed to be done to rebuild the cathedral even thinking during mass that i would have no hesitation in giving my christmas bonus (which was 200e) to the restoration fund that wasnt even mentioned at that time. sorry for rambling!
also the possible reason for the restoartion fund to be set up could be somewhere safe for people to put their donation in rather than hand or post it to the bishop as many people were doing.

Handing cash directly to the bishop is perhaps not the wisest course of action. I know little about the bishop but I definately think that a proper trust fund is the way forward. That course of action exposes the Bishop to all sorts of possible malicious mischief!
Ask any club treasurer or cash handler and they will tell you how handling of cash can come back to bite you on the bum if not 100% accounted for!
Now call me pedantic too but i keep reading about "all the people of Longford" etc. I know a good many folk, Longford natives and blow-ins, who, though not rejoicing about the fire are not exactly grief stricken either. They are also not enthused about the sum of money involved in restoring St Mels. They are not horned demons or anarchistic athiests either. You would be surprised about the walks of life they come from.
Whether I am one of them or not I wont divulge as it is irrelevant

dollydimples82

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Handing cash directly to the bishop is perhaps not the wisest course of action. I know little about the bishop but I definately think that a proper trust fund is the way forward. That course of action exposes the Bishop to all sorts of possible malicious mischief!
Ask any club treasurer or cash handler and they will tell you how handling of cash can come back to bite you on the bum if not 100% accounted for!

I could be wrong but i would say this is the reason the restoration fund was set up....Not to get people to contribute or ask them for money, but as so many people were handing and posting money to the priest and bishop it was probably the best way to ensure no money went astry!:)

Now call me pedantic too but i keep reading about "all the people of Longford" etc. I know a good many folk, Longford natives and blow-ins, who, though not rejoicing about the fire are not exactly grief stricken either. They are also not enthused about the sum of money involved in restoring St Mels. They are not horned demons or anarchistic athiests either. You would be surprised about the walks of life they come from.
Whether I am one of them or not I wont divulge as it is irrelevant

i know there are probably lots of people who arent upset but the majority of them especially the older people are upset. also under the current economic climate lots of people think that money used to restore the cathedral would be better spent on something else. there are many families struggling to keep going from one week to another and would give anything to have some of the money that will be used to fund the restoration, however we all know this wont happen. there are many reasons why poeple dont want to see the cathedral restored and we could talk about them in lenght however it still wont change the fact that the restoration will go ahead, and my personal opinion is that i will be very happy when it does.!:D:D:D

Apelles

There's a Poll running on Archiseek to try & ascertain in what manner the Cathedral should be restored. http://www.archiseek.com/content/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=100
So far it's showing a desire to be rebuilt faithfully as to its pre-Vatican II design before its 70's style makeover. I'd like to know what way Longfordians & others who read this thread feel about the way in which the works should be approached.
Thanks..Apelles.

dollydimples82

Apelles wrote: »

There's a Poll running on Archiseek to try & ascertain in what manner the Cathedral should be restored. http://www.archiseek.com/content/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=100
So far it's showing a desire to be rebuilt faithfully as to its pre-Vatican II design before its 70's style makeover. I'd like to know what way Longfordians & others who read this thread feel about the way in which the works should be approached.
Thanks..Apelles.

I wasnt born until '82 so i have no idea what the interior looked like before the makeover. I do believe that it should be restore to what it looked like before the fire, simply because its how i remember it. i dont think it should be modernised or left as a ruins. Why? because modernising such a beautiful catheral would loss its appeal. It is one of the only things Longford has as a tourist attraction and turning into another concert building lacking design would be a waste. leaving it as a ruins its just a no-no, as it is an important part of Longford and would have no benefit for Longford if left as it is. It is already a big loss for people who attend mass on a daily basis, weekend, weddings, etc..Longford needs this cathedral:)

silver campaign

It should be restored as close to it's original condition as is possible. I'm sure that will be difficult, as I'd imagine, the trades and tradesmen that were around when it was originally built simply don't exist anymore. (The tradesmen certainly) Putting a modern interior inside the existing shell would look wrong to me, but then i'm not an architect.

Another thing is that people keep referring to the cathedral as Longfords Cathedral, and talking about the 'people of Longford.' Remeber this is the Cathedral for the Diocese of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise. This covers an area much larger than Longford. Just thought I'd through that in.

dollydimples82

[quote=Another thing is that people keep referring to the cathedral as Longfords Cathedral, and talking about the 'people of Longford.' Remeber this is the Cathedral for the Diocese of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise. This covers an area much larger than Longford. Just thought I'd through that in.[/quote]

we all know that its the cathedral for the Diocese of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise, i guess we keep refering to people of longford and longfords cathedral as its in longford and we see it every day, we dont intend to cause offence and claim ownership! Its just a figure of speech with no harm intended and if i have caused offence to anyone i apologise:)

james1852

silver campaign wrote: »

It should be restored as close to it's original condition as is possible. I'm sure that will be difficult, as I'd imagine, the trades and tradesmen that were around when it was originally built simply don't exist anymore. (The tradesmen certainly) Putting a modern interior inside the existing shell would look wrong to me, but then i'm not an architect.

Another thing is that people keep referring to the cathedral as Longfords Cathedral, and talking about the 'people of Longford.' Remeber this is the Cathedral for the Diocese of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise. This covers an area much larger than Longford. Just thought I'd through that in.

While the actual tradesmen that originally worked on the Cathedral are not around anymore , at least one firm that worked on St.Mels over 120 years ago still exists.
The following photos are from our archive and taken in 1925 when St. Mels was decorated by J.Hodkinson & Sons , Ecclesiastical Decorators Limerick , under the management of Louis Hodkinson. The Cathedral had previously been decorated by his father ,James, in 1886. On both these occassions the Cathedral was richly decorated with elaborate stencil designs and gold leaf work on the ceilings and walls. Some of this can be seen in the interior photo below.
This company still exists today, using the same methods and techniques for the past 150 years.

Groarty

With regard to the organ in the cathedral - I'd imagine it was completley destroyed, does anyone know if there was anything left of it, anything that could be salvaged?

Also, I understand the instrument in the cathedral at the time of the fire was relatively new - are there any pictures out there of the previous instrument?

ballsymchugh

Groarty wrote: »

With regard to the organ in the cathedral - I'd imagine it was completley destroyed, does anyone know if there was anything left of it, anything that could be salvaged?

Also, I understand the instrument in the cathedral at the time of the fire was relatively new - are there any pictures out there of the previous instrument?

one of the photos from the inside shows a big cylindrical thing which i think is the organ, there's something alongside it that may have been connected to the pedals.
in one of the photos looking towards the front of the Cathedral, you can juat about make out the metal frame of the balcony too.

Groarty

ballsymchugh wrote: »

one of the photos from the inside shows a big cylindrical thing which i think is the organ, there's something alongside it that may have been connected to the pedals.
in one of the photos looking towards the front of the Cathedral, you can juat about make out the metal frame of the balcony too.

I know the one you mean.. It looks like a big drum from an old fashioned music box.

Wonder what the last thing to be played on it was - I'm sure it was used at the midnight mass.

ballsymchugh

Groarty wrote: »

I know the one you mean.. It looks like a big drum from an old fashioned music box.

Wonder what the last thing to be played on it was - I'm sure it was used at the midnight mass.

it'd be pretty easy to find out, the organist used to play the same song after midnight mass and the easter vigil every year when the crowd were leaving. the tune is going around my head now!!
he's a cracking organist, it always sounded mental when he got going into that tune.

Groarty

ballsymchugh wrote: »

it'd be pretty easy to find out, the organist used to play the same song after midnight mass and the easter vigil every year when the crowd were leaving. the tune is going around my head now!!
he's a cracking organist, it always sounded mental when he got going into that tune.

Sounds fantastic, wouldn't have been the Widor Tocatta by any chance?

ballsymchugh

Groarty wrote: »

Sounds fantastic, wouldn't have been the Widor Tocatta by any chance?

just looked it up on youtube, you're spot on, that's what it was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKejfYzB3ak

Groarty

ballsymchugh wrote: »

just looked it up on youtube, you're spot on, that's what it was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKejfYzB3ak

Its a terrific piece.. at least it went out in style

Groarty

silver campaign wrote: »

It should be restored as close to it's original condition as is possible. I'm sure that will be difficult, as I'd imagine, the trades and tradesmen that were around when it was originally built simply don't exist anymore. (The tradesmen certainly) Putting a modern interior inside the existing shell would look wrong to me, but then i'm not an architect.

They did it really well in Dresden and they really had little more than a pile of rubble:

http://www.frauenkirche-dresden.de/wiederaufbau+M5d637b1e38d.html

Apelles

james1852 wrote: »

While the actual tradesmen that originally worked on the Cathedral are not around anymore , at least one firm that worked on St.Mels over 120 years ago still exists.
The following photos are from our archive and taken in 1925 when St. Mels was decorated by J.Hodkinson & Sons , Ecclesiastical Decorators Limerick , under the management of Louis Hodkinson. The Cathedral had previously been decorated by his father ,James, in 1886. On both these occassions the Cathedral was richly decorated with elaborate stencil designs and gold leaf work on the ceilings and walls. Some of this can be seen in the interior photo below.
This company still exists today, using the same methods and techniques for the past 150 years.

And hopefully & God willing...we will once again see Hodkinson & Sons , Ecclesiastical Decorators from Limerick decorating the interior of St. Mel's Cathedral with their beautiful artistry.

garfieldsghost

ballsymchugh wrote: »

one of the photos from the inside shows a big cylindrical thing which i think is the organ, there's something alongside it that may have been connected to the pedals.
in one of the photos looking towards the front of the Cathedral, you can juat about make out the metal frame of the balcony too.

I think that cylinder is actually a part of the system that automatically rang the bells. Each bell would've been triggered each time the corresponding stylus hit one of the notches on the cylinder as it rotated...

Groarty

garfieldsghost wrote: »

I think that cylinder is actually a part of the system that automatically rang the bells. Each bell would've been triggered each time the corresponding stylus hit one of the bumps on the cylinder as it rotated...

Did the bells themselves survive? - its difficult to tell from the photos as to whether the tower burnt the whole way up. Certainly the upper section looks fairly unscathed.

garfieldsghost

Groarty wrote: »

Did the bells themselves survive? - its difficult to tell from the photos as to whether the tower burnt the whole way up. Certainly the upper section looks fairly unscathed.

The tower is damaged internally and one bell did fall to the ground on Christmas evening after the emergency services had cleared the site. It rang for one last time before it came crashing down...

drBill

Ah yes that makes sense, I originally thought it might be for automatically playing music on the organ although it didn't really look capable of representing organ music, but should be well matched to bell ringing.

Hadn't heard much about the tower and I was hoping that it may have been saved but was saddened when I found this article by Tiernan Dolan in the Leader:
http://www.longfordleader.ie/news/A-nightmare-unfolds-in-Longford.5943747.jp
Sadly the bell(s) collapsed down through the tower late on Christmas day so the tower seems to have been gutted too.

Groarty

drBill wrote: »

Ah yes that makes sense, I originally thought it might be for automatically playing music on the organ although it didn't really look capable of representing organ music, but should be well matched to bell ringing.

Hadn't heard much about the tower and I was hoping that it may have been saved but was saddened when I found this article by Tiernan Dolan in the Leader:
http://www.longfordleader.ie/news/A-nightmare-unfolds-in-Longford.5943747.jp
Sadly the bell(s) collapsed down through the tower late on Christmas day so the tower seems to have been gutted too.

Well, hopefully it can be put right and the bells fully restored..

ballsymchugh

i never kopped that that's what the cylinder was, but it makes sense now. the inside frame of the steeple was wooden. from about 10am the fire brigade were mainly concentrating on it trying to save that.

Arkana

dollydimples82 wrote: »

My conscience is clear, thank you. I am not going to justify why i feel a loss or saddness just because you obviously dont understand what our cathedral meant to us, it wasnt about the building as much as it is our memories, that are close to our hearts.:( I am in no doubt that the cathedral will be rebuilt but it will never be the same.

I attended st johns church in Longford for another funeral once and never felt out of place there either, it is a place of worship for many longford people also, and yes i think i would feel a sense of loss over it too. More the memories of my grandads funeral.

Perhaps you have never experienced moments like these???

Very nice that your conscience is 'clear' (by the way, that is a very favourite Scientology term!), but in all your following elaborate you did NOT answer my initial question.

Why am I not surprised?:p

dollydimples82

welcome back arkana...i think..

Had to go back through all the post to find what ur question was....here is you quote....

"Despite the fact that this is a horrible incident (still there has been no evidence for arson but it cannot 100% be excluded) and a huge loss...
would you be equally upset if the destroyed building would have been a Pagan Temple or a Muslim Mosque?

Check your conscience, please..."

yes i would feel the same loss if it were a pagan temple or a muslim mosque....i have been too and attended some services in these places also.. obviuosly i am a catholic (not a good one) and as a result of this felt a deep loss as sooooo much of my childhood involved attending the cathedral..hope this pleases u ;-)

Arkana

Well, my objective was not to be pleased but to check whether in this brainwashed catholic country are at least SOME people who can think for themselves - without the all-present catholic doctrine.
I answer with a quote from the bible (the story from Sodom and Gomhorra): "Show me one good man (=human being) in this city and I will not destroy it nor the land around it..."
Obviously you 'qualified' - so, yes, in a certain way I am satisfied (takes a bit more to 'please' me!) and signalize my sympathy to you. Whilst I am not in the position to 'destroy this city' and never have/had the slightest idea to do so (in fact, Jahwe in that particular story in the bible is in my humble opinion the first peoples murderer in human history - not very godly though!), this was simply - for me personally - to make up my mind about the people here.
You give me some hope, dear!;)

dollydimples82

haha, arkana, us catholics (well this one at least), are more than capable of thinking for ourselves!! I have very strong views on what i believe in. i am at present very angry with the whole god/jesus thing and about 8/9 years ago, i turned my back slightly from the whole lot. (personal reasons), having said that i didnt realise how the cathedral burning down would have impact on it, it didnt change my mind or anythin crazy like that but i felt such a loss on christmas morning, it almost made me cry. i personally would like to think that if another church or temple was destroyed that in perhaps a different way, that i too would feel the loss of the buildings. I am sometimes refered to as a pagan and prehaps in ways i am, i still pray when i need to and i always knew that when i decided that i wanted to attend mass that the cathedral doors were always open, i guess it was like getting a kick up the back side when the fire occured. you see you dont have to be a good catholic to suffer the loss of such a fine historic building

Arkana

Well - I am not a friend of generalizations (though there are many people who contradict me - but those are simply not reading/hearing my elaborates properly) - but at least you restricted your own generalization with your attached note in brackets.;)
To my experience, many (more two thirds of those I know to my perception - but I am not doing personal statistics) people who call themselves 'catholic' (and not only in this country - but in this country very expressively) follow more or less the main stream of the doctrines.:( (and I don't mean only 'little' things like the 'condom issue' or similar).
I quote you "...obviously I am a catholic (not a good one)..." - well, if thinking for yourself is making you a 'bad' or 'not so good' catholic, then, gladly, welcome to my realm! It does make you a better human being at least. It is part of the (neo-)Pagan thinking, that you cannot handle out your responsibility at the confession and get responses like :"Say three OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN... here you have a cookie, good guy/girl, continue..." :eek:
We are and we stay responsible for what we are doing, saying and even thinking. Yes, thoughts are free - but with that freedom comes responsibility. And giving up this responsibility just by showing some remorse (whether you really feel it or not - just by SHOWING) and being given the opportunity to continue your previous evil - that is hypocritical for me! :mad:
I am glad that you obviously not a good catholic but a better human being.
If I may be so bold: Feel hugged.;)