Is suicide a sin?

AudreyHepburn

Of course suicide isn't sin! It never should have been seen that way. It's just a terrible tragedy and a truely horrible and lonely way to die.

Speaking as a Catholic I'm sorry the OP had such a bad experience and felt the need to ask this question but the Catholic church really isn't half as backward as people seem to think.

If anything I think it's come on leaps and bounds since the days when the local Priest was unerring and the be-all-and-end-all.

shanehillview

What an inconsiderate thread. At this time of year of all times. How will people feel coming onto boards and seeing their pain and misery trivialised in a pointless debate to label people who are the most vulnerable in society.

Xluna

shanehillview wrote: »

What an inconsiderate thread. At this time of year of all times. How will people feel coming onto boards and seeing their pain and misery trivialised in a pointless debate to label people who are the most vulnerable in society.

Agreed.

I'm not sure whether the R.C.C. still considers it a sin or not but I know why they made it a sin. When the Christians where being persecuted in Roman times many were eager to become martyrs that they sought persecution from Roman officials. There are primary documents which records Roman soldiers avoiding fanatical Christians who would have passively sought martrydom. The church knew Christianity could'nt grow if this continued so they made suicide a sin.

PDN

Xluna wrote: »

Agreed.

I'm not sure whether the R.C.C. still considers it a sin or not but I know why they made it a sin. When the Christians where being persecuted in Roman times many were eager to become martyrs that they sought persecution from Roman officials. There are primary documents which records Roman soldiers avoiding fanatical Christians who would have passively sought martrydom. The church knew Christianity could'nt grow if this continued so they made suicide a sin.

Whoever told you that was pulling your leg.

Suicide was first declared a sin by the Church in the Sixth Century - at least 200 years after persecution of Christians ceased in the Roman Empire.

Xluna

PDN wrote: »

Whoever told you that was pulling your leg.

Suicide was first declared a sin by the Church in the Sixth Century - at least 200 years after persecution of Christians ceased in the Roman Empire.

A history lecturer,who specialised in that era. It would have been at the end of the main era of Christian persecution, when Christianity was pretty much tolerated.They refused to pay lip service to official Pagan customs.

PDN

Xluna wrote: »

A history lecturer,who specialised in that era. It was a good while ago so I can't remember all the details but that was more or less the essence of what he said. What was the rationale for making suicide a sin from your knowledge?

The rationale was that suicide was breaking the commandment against murder. That's what Augustine argued in "The City of God".

Historically, of course, the periods when most Christians have been martyred for their faith have also been the times when the Church has grown the most. This led Tertullian to make his famous claim that "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church".

Xluna

The Donatists...I had a feeling it had something to do with them.

In the early Christian era suicide was not only tolerated, but condoned by the church, as a result certain sects such as the Donatists and the Circumcellions jumped off cliffs in great numbers to hasten an afterlife that promised greater rewards than those found on jolly old earth.
Faced with the loss of so many of its members, and rapidly shrinking collection plates, in (about) the sixth century the church decided that anyone else who committed suicide was going to hell.

The Donatists, of whom St Augustine said, "...to kill themselves out of respect for martyrdom is their daily sport." They were noted for jumping from cliffs, and also burned themselves to death in large numbers.
They are probably best known for their practice of stopping travelers and either paying them or threatening them with death to encourage them to kill the, presumably, heaven-bound martyr. The Donatists were eventually declared heretics and suppressed with a notable lack of Christian charity.

http://www.a1b2c3.com/suilodge/fachis1.htm

PDN

Xluna wrote: »

The Donatists...I had a feeling it had something to do with them.

In the early Christian era suicide was not only tolerated, but condoned by the church, as a result certain sects such as the Donatists and the Circumcellions jumped off cliffs in great numbers to hasten an afterlife that promised greater rewards than those found on jolly old earth.
Faced with the loss of so many of its members, and rapidly shrinking collection plates, in (about) the sixth century the church decided that anyone else who committed suicide was going to hell.

The Donatists, of whom St Augustine said, "...to kill themselves out of respect for martyrdom is their daily sport." They were noted for jumping from cliffs, and also burned themselves to death in large numbers.
They are probably best known for their practice of stopping travelers and either paying them or threatening them with death to encourage them to kill the, presumably, heaven-bound martyr. The Donatists were eventually declared heretics and suppressed with a notable lack of Christian charity.

http://www.a1b2c3.com/suilodge/fachis1.htm

For a more accurate, and less sensational, account of the Donatists I would recommend Alistair McGrath's recent book "Heresy" or skim through the wikipedia article on them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donatist

Hangsangwich

Nowadays, the word sin has a lot of negative connotations. Lots of people prefer to say something is not sinful, because they refuse to admit that they are sinners.
However, we are all sinners. St. John wrote in an epistle that those who say they are without sin are liars.
The ancient Hebrew word for sin was an archery term which meant missing the mark(target). I think this is a healthier way for us to look at the word "sin".
Therefore, yes, suicide is in itself sinful. The gravity of the sin may be mitigated by circumstances such as the state of mind of the deceased.
With regard to whether this person will gain eternal life is not really for anyone only God to decide. The Catholic Church has declared many people saints, but has never declared anyone to have suffered damnation to hell.
The Catholic Church no longer presumes to underestimate the mercy of God with regard to those who take their own lives. A suicide victim may have the opportunity to repent between the act of suicide and God's judgement.
Suicide is a horrible tragedy, and most people have been affected by suicide in their life. But lets not play God. Better to pray for those troubled souls.

Stephentlig

I just lost a cousin in 2005 and recently a neighbor due to this sin over New years and I got the message today that he had hung himself, I prayed as soon as I heard it although I was shocked on hearing it at first.

The Father of a young boy who had taken his life came to talk to us at St.Patricks Cathedral Dundalk on suicide and he was very brave to be able to stand up there and speak about it.

The following is the Catholic churches teaching on Suicide.


Suicide

[URL="javascript:openWindow('cr/2280.htm');"]2280[/URL] Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

[URL="javascript:openWindow('cr/2281.htm');"]2281[/URL] Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

[URL="javascript:openWindow('cr/2282.htm');"]2282[/URL] If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide. [URL="javascript:openWindow('cr/2283.htm');"]2283[/URL] We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

God bless, and my prayers are with all those gone and who have been left behind.

Stephen

Antbert

It's something I've never understood, and now even less so, especially after the debate between PDN and Xluna. As far as I'm aware it was at some point definitely considered a sin, so I don't see how these things just... change. Do they change with society's values? If so, will that eventually make the whole idea of sin in Christianity a bit meaningless? Or maybe Christianity is updated, for want of a better term, which is surely (big picture wise) no bad thing.

Anyway, a year ago, to the best of my knowledge, suicide was considered a sin. However, someone I knew shot himself and had a Catholic funeral and there was a lot of talk about him looking down on us from Heaven. It pissed me off then and it pisses me off now.

Hangsangwich

There is far too much emphasis on eulogising the dead, and not enough emphasis on prayers of intercedence and penance on behalf of the dead.
Today, funerals are more about honouring the memory of the deceased and keeping their family happy than actually praying to God. This is because there is a lack of faith.

Antbert

Hangsangwich wrote: »

There is far too much emphasis on eulogising the dead, and not enough emphasis on prayers of intercedence and penance on behalf of the dead.
Today, funerals are more about honouring the memory of the deceased and keeping their family happy than actually praying to God. This is because there is a lack of faith.

What? Have you actually been to a funeral?

The one I went to lately was the polar opposite (and as such really, really annoyed me, but y'know, up to the family). There was almost no mention of the guy that died.

And are you actually implying there's something wrong with honouring the deceased and keeping their family happy? I almost feel like I'm feeding a troll, reading that, but I can't be sure.

irishgirl2009

it is a very selfish thing to do...not a sin

EI111

irishgirl2009 wrote: »

it is a very selfish thing to do...not a sin

I can't stand people who say this.
Many people who commit suicide probably think they are doing society a favor as they see themselves as worthless.

Such an egocentric point of view, the suffering it causes to loved ones can't be compared to the pain the person themselves went through.

Hangsangwich

Antbert wrote: »

What? Have you actually been to a funeral?

The one I went to lately was the polar opposite (and as such really, really annoyed me, but y'know, up to the family). There was almost no mention of the guy that died.

And are you actually implying there's something wrong with honouring the deceased and keeping their family happy? I almost feel like I'm feeding a troll, reading that, but I can't be sure.

Fair point. Except that I said "honouring the MEMORY of the dead".
I should put it a better way. Talking about what a wonderful life the dead lived and how they are up in Heaven is not really going to help them get to Heaven. Whereas I believe prayers and penance for the soul of the dead will. In fact, comforting family and friends that their Johnny is up in heaven might actually prevent the family from taking time to pray for them.

Hangsangwich

irishgirl2009 wrote: »

it is a very selfish thing to do...not a sin

Selfishness is in itself sinful.
Actually, once it was even considered a sin to eat shellfish

Antbert

Hangsangwich wrote: »

Fair point. Except that I said "honouring the MEMORY of the dead".

No idea why that makes a difference.

I should put it a better way. Talking about what a wonderful life the dead lived and how they are up in Heaven is not really going to help them get to Heaven. Whereas I believe prayers and penance for the soul of the dead will. In fact, comforting family and friends that their Johnny is up in heaven might actually prevent the family from taking time to pray for them.

Pointless persuing this, because I'm an atheist so we'd be discussing it from two very different viewpoints.

sold

kev9100 wrote: »

Suicide is not a sin. Its a tragedy.

Suicide IS a sin, but we can't judge the mental state of the person to be able to say if they sinned. A sin is an act commited with your will and knowledge. Mentally ill people who kill or take their own lifes commited a wrong act but may not have sinned.

Xluna

irishgirl2009 wrote: »

it is a very selfish thing to do...not a sin

One could turn that argument on it's head and say the family and friends of the suicidal person are selfish for wanting him/her to live in torment just so they don't have to feel grief. Everyone has limits. Your limits were obviously not tested. Don't judge so easily.

Xluna

Hangsangwich wrote: »

Selfishness is in itself sinful.
Actually, once it was even considered a sin to eat shellfish

Yet were it not for the selfish gene we probably would not be having this discussion.