Is suicide a sin?

mikemac

Now as I understand it at one stage you would not be buried on consecrated grounds.
And your family being told you would be denied entry to heaven.

Nowadays people who commit suicide do get church funerals. When did this change?

And is it still a sin? I understand it's the destruction of life and God's gift to you but will your family be told you'll never enter heaven?

Have attended such funerals
But that's all I know about it realy

Oh and I have searched for past threads, didn't find anything

ronaneire

A sin? Hardly. Look what the Catholic Church has done to this Country.... Thats a sin.

eringobragh

mikemac wrote: »

Now as I understand it at one stage you would not be buried on consecrated grounds.
And your family being told you would be denied entry to heaven.

Nowadays people who commit suicide do get church funerals. When did this change?

And is it still a sin? I understand it's the destruction of life and God's gift to you but will your family be told you'll never enter heaven?

Have attended such funerals
But that's all I know about it realy

Oh and I have searched for past threads, didn't find anything

In the last 20-30 years I'd imagine, on a similar note I was walking the dog down towards knocknacarra in Galway and I noticed a plaque at the golf course a few times, I stopped and read it, it was for all the still borns and unbaptised babies that were buried there, thought to myself "Weren't we absolute monsters" to carry on with that kind of crap.

Reasons like that is why I don't bother with Religion.

mikemac

ronaneire wrote: »

A sin? Hardly. Look what the Catholic Church has done to this Country.... Thats a sin.

You don't know so? But posted anyway

I don't know either so I asked in the Christianity forum

ronaneire

mikemac wrote: »

You don't know so? But posted anyway

I don't know either so I asked in the Christianity forum

No I don't know is correct. I would call it sad and very upsetting for the families & friends, that some person have to end their own life for what ever reason it may have been.
My point was that the Catholic Church in this Country commited worse sins than that of its people.

mikemac

I'm not disagreeing with you Ronaneire.

I just hope the thread doesn't get dragged offtopic which is why I posted here and not in After Hours

stringbox

Of course it's still a sin. Christianity isn't a fair weather religion. You can't sign up because boozing is a lot of fun at christenings and confirmations but then kill yourself expecting to go to heaven. You off yourself, your ass is goin straight to hell. Jesus was very specific about this.

krudler

stringbox wrote: »

Of course it's still a sin. Christianity isn't a fair weather religion. You can't sign up because boozing is a lot of fun at christenings and confirmations but then kill yourself expecting to go to heaven. You off yourself, your ass is goin straight to hell. Jesus was very specific about this.

Stealing is a sin, better remember that next time you download a song or watch something online, one way ticket to hell for filesharing

What if you commited suicide to ease your own suffering? say you were dying of a slow painful disease and instead of wasting away over months, watching your loved ones having to endure watching you slowly die, I'd take suicide over that any day, because if thats gods plan, to watch us suffer, then he doesnt deserve our worship

kev9100

Suicide is not a sin. Its a tragedy.

Fanny Cradock

It has been discussed before

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055257235&page=2

Let's try keep this on topic, please.

wolfsbane

mikemac wrote: »

Now as I understand it at one stage you would not be buried on consecrated grounds.
And your family being told you would be denied entry to heaven.

Nowadays people who commit suicide do get church funerals. When did this change?

And is it still a sin? I understand it's the destruction of life and God's gift to you but will your family be told you'll never enter heaven?

Have attended such funerals
But that's all I know about it realy

Oh and I have searched for past threads, didn't find anything

Depends on what one means by suicide. Killing yourself in despair or to punish someone else is a sin, as it takes what God has reserved to Himself. But even here the gravity of the offence greatly varies. Just as with stealing a loaf of bread if one is hungry is a crime, but a lot less than stealing it from a poor person to feed your dog.

On the other hand, killing oneself in order to protect another - jumping out of the overcrowded lifeboat, for example - is a righteous act. Or killing oneself when out of ones mind - no moral culpability is involved.

It is foolish idea that any sin is too little to merit hell, or any too great to prevent heaven (other than blasphemy of the Spirit). If a Christian dies without having repented of a sin - whether he died in a car crash after speaking harshly and unkindly to his wife, or by unwarranted suicide - he is immediately repentant in heaven and the blood of Christ as effective for that sin as it was for all the rest. His death in fact removes him from any liability to sin and he is now one of the spirits of just men made perfect.

The unbeliever who dies, dies in all his sins, including that of an unwarranted suicide.

That's a Protestant understanding of the issue. The Roman Catholic Church has it quite differently I'm sure.

Kelda09

stringbox wrote: »

Of course it's still a sin. Christianity isn't a fair weather religion. You can't sign up because boozing is a lot of fun at christenings and confirmations but then kill yourself expecting to go to heaven. You off yourself, your ass is goin straight to hell. Jesus was very specific about this.

Just wondering where exactly Jesus was so specific on this??????? I have had two cousins and a few family members of friends commit suicide, all of them had full roman catholic funerals and burials and buried in consecrated ground, as far as i know this has been the case for the last number of years.

As for the aspect of hell, I firmly believe that anybody who goes through the pain, desperation, sadness and darkness that leads to somebody loosing the fight or flight instinct and taking their own life has experienced their hell here before they die, and anything that the catholic church can tell us about or concoct could ever be as bad. I also do not believe that somebody who goes through such pain here would be condidered in need of punishment like child molesters or abusers.

chrisr001

Kev9100 is right.

The only sin is to not endeavour to be a good, loving person.
Those with no love preach about sin.

Iguana Bob

stringbox wrote: »

Of course it's still a sin. Christianity isn't a fair weather religion. You can't sign up because boozing is a lot of fun at christenings and confirmations but then kill yourself expecting to go to heaven. You off yourself, your ass is goin straight to hell. Jesus was very specific about this.

yet you can lead an entire life of sin and repent on your death bed and still go to heaven that makes loads of sense doesnt it

PDN

chrisr001 wrote: »

Kev9100 is right.

The only sin is to not endeavour to be a good, loving person.
Those with no love preach about sin.

Which would mean that Jesus, who preached about sin, had no love. Which would make your post contrary to the Charter. I would quit now if I were you.

Kelda09 wrote:

Just wondering where exactly Jesus was so specific on this??????? I have had two cousins and a few family members of friends commit suicide, all of them had full roman catholic funerals and burials and buried in consecrated ground, as far as i know this has been the case for the last number of years.

As far as I remember Jesus never specifically condemned suicide.

By the way, if posters want to discuss suicide then feel free to do so. Anyone wanting to make gratuitous pops at the Catholic Church about child abuse then please refrain. It will only mean I will have to delete your posts, which might be a shame if you have otherwise useful points to make.

kev9100

stringbox wrote: »

Of course it's still a sin. Christianity isn't a fair weather religion. You can't sign up because boozing is a lot of fun at christenings and confirmations but then kill yourself expecting to go to heaven. You off yourself, your ass is goin straight to hell. Jesus was very specific about this.

Speaking as an agnostic, this is what is wrong with the Catholic religion today. Are you that blind or insensitive that you cannot see how disgusting and hurtful these comments are? You should be ashamed of yourself.

PDN

Iguana Bob wrote: »

yet you can lead an entire life of sin and repent on your death bed and still go to heaven that makes loads of sense doesnt it

It makes perfect sense to me, but if you want to discuss that further (rather than this thread's topic, which is suicide) then take it somewhere else.

Kelda09

Iguana Bob wrote: »

yet you can lead an entire life of sin and repent on your death bed and still go to heaven that makes loads of sense doesnt it

That always bothered me as well, I always thought it was a bit of a cop out, someone who tries to live as good a life as possible yet may not live exactly by the rules of the bible can go to hell yet someone who does bad intentionally and causes pain for others just has to say sorry when their dying and all is forgiven. (Sorry, I know I made it sound very simplified there, I dont intend to belittle peoples beliefs, but it does sound unfair to me.)

Edit: Just after seeing PDNs comment. Apologies.

PDN

kev9100 wrote: »

Speaking as agnostic, this is what is wrong with the Catholic religion today. Are you that blind or insensitive that you cannot see how disgusting and hurtful these comments are? You should be ashamed of yourself.

While that poster's comments were trollish, you have no way of knowing if they are Catholic, Christian, or just a jerk. Please try to avoid being provoked into generalisations about Catholicism in general.

chrisr001

try thinking it through for yourself,
if there was no one to quote an answer for you.
Christ wrote no record,
he may be the most misquoted person ever.

Did Christ preach about sin?
I don't know!
Besides I said "those" not everyone.
Ought to know the type I mean.

kev9100

Yeah, you`re right. Sorry about that.

chrisr001

What's the story, then...
regarding slowly dying.
I mean, the final sudden act is a last resort
for someone who gave up on life,
or encountered something they could not deal with at all.
What if you gave up ages ago and were just going through the motions?
What was it about Lazarus' death that Christ felt was inappropriate?

Son Of A Vidic

My Best mate jumped from a bridge 4 years, he was drinking and was given cocaine by a 'friend' after he had just ended a long term relationship very badly. He rang me and my wife to say he was sorry and then he jumped. A total stranger dives in after him, punches him to stop him resisting him and gets him to the Shoreline. He got married to a wonderful woman last July and he's a new man. We often spoke about that night and only for that guy that pulled him out, I'd be speaking to a headstone. The tragedy of suicide is - if people could just hang on maybe, just maybe they might look back in years to come and be thankful they didn't go through with it. Suicide is a tragedy, how dare anyone judge or condemn these poor, poor people. I have no doubt no matter what your religion, that God will comfort and welcome home these poor souls.

krudler

wolfsbane wrote: »

Depends on what one means by suicide. Killing yourself in despair or to punish someone else is a sin, as it takes what God has reserved to Himself. But even here the gravity of the offence greatly varies. Just as with stealing a loaf of bread if one is hungry is a crime, but a lot less than stealing it from a poor person to feed your dog.

Where that written on the ten commandments? those tablets must have been huge with all these little get out clauses Christians wheel out when it suits them?
"Thou shall not steal....except when you're hungry, then its ok i guess"

Buffet religious beliefs at its best

chrisr001

Thank you for posting that, medicman2009,
wish someone was there for mine.

Fanny Cradock

krudler wrote: »

Where that written on the ten commandments? those tablets must have been huge with all these little get out clauses Christians wheel out when it suits them?
"Thou shall not steal....except when you're hungry, then its ok i guess"

Buffet religious beliefs at its best

Leave the generalisations at the door. Next person who engages in this type of rubbish get infracted. OK?

Kelda09

chrisr001 wrote: »

Thank you for posting that, medicman2009,
wish someone was there for mine.

I wish that too, but then other times I think with one of my cousins in particular if he had been stopped would any of our family ever really not be on gard, watching out for any hint of another attempt. I think sometimes some people have just reached such a dark edge there is no going back. My cousin had done everything by the textbook, got help, talked etc but nothing seemed to break through to him unfortunately.

lmaopml

mikemac wrote: »

Now as I understand it at one stage you would not be buried on consecrated grounds.
And your family being told you would be denied entry to heaven.

Nowadays people who commit suicide do get church funerals. When did this change?

And is it still a sin? I understand it's the destruction of life and God's gift to you but will your family be told you'll never enter heaven?

Have attended such funerals
But that's all I know about it realy

Oh and I have searched for past threads, didn't find anything

Hi Mikemac

I am sorry if you had a bad experience....Your experience sounds weird and at odds with anything I have ever encountered, and I have seen indirect family and some distant friends etc commit suicide...It leaves such a vast 'hole' in peoples lives and so many questions, that never truely get answered.....It must be awful to lose a loved one to suicide, no matter what the circumstances..... As I understand it, most Catholics would say that the final judgement is entirely up to God...He know's more about the person than we could ever hope to....Catholics don't think they 'judge' perfectly, it's one of the basics of our faith....

We know nowadays that people who commit suicide are in pain, and feel that the world would be better off without them....How sad...:( It's a pity that we don't all pay attention more often to eachother....but there is only so much we can do and see....

However, God knows all things and he is there waiting for everybody...It must sadden him when a life ends, but he, and only he is the perfect judge, and he knows the heart of the man/woman...

I hope this helps...

..and again, I'm really sorry if you had a crappy experience...

wolfsbane

krudler wrote: »

Where that written on the ten commandments? those tablets must have been huge with all these little get out clauses Christians wheel out when it suits them?
"Thou shall not steal....except when you're hungry, then its ok i guess"

Buffet religious beliefs at its best

Maybe you can point to the get out clause, especially where I'm supposed to say stealing is ok?

Or had you just made up your mind I was doing so and didn't let the text get in the way?

antiskeptic

mikemac wrote: »

And is it still a sin? I understand it's the destruction of life and God's gift to you but will your family be told you'll never enter heaven?

Dunno what the Roman Catholic view is but then again, the Roman Catholic view isn't necessarily the Christian view. My own view of the Christian view (assuming salvation by grace and not by works)?

Suicide a sin? Not necessarily. There can be different motivations behind suicide and I can think of a least one category example where that motivation can be argued to align with God's way of salvation.

Take the case of a person struggling with, for example, temptation unto rape. And in order to prevent themselves carrying out that temptation they hang themselves. In that case, they have comformed to the maxim "no greater love hath man than that he lay down his life for another". God, I think, would recognise this persons

a) hatred of that which is evil - even when recognised as residing in oneself

b) love of that which is good.

The would-be-rapists suicide would be motivated thus, by a love of that which God represents (goodness, love, selflessness) and a hatred of that against which God strives (evil, unrighteous hatred, selfishness) - whether or not the person actually believes in God. This motivation, I'd argue, is the basis on which God saves men: whether, in their heart of hearts they love or hate the Truth (i.e.: God). In other words; not only would this persons suicide not be a sin, their expression of heart would be the basis for God saving then - and so that persons suicide would not only not be a sin, but their expression of heart (which is seen by God) would form the basis by which they are saved by Gods grace.

Kidchameleon

Why would god abandon a person to hell when they are in most need of love?

AudreyHepburn

Of course suicide isn't sin! It never should have been seen that way. It's just a terrible tragedy and a truely horrible and lonely way to die.

Speaking as a Catholic I'm sorry the OP had such a bad experience and felt the need to ask this question but the Catholic church really isn't half as backward as people seem to think.

If anything I think it's come on leaps and bounds since the days when the local Priest was unerring and the be-all-and-end-all.

shanehillview

What an inconsiderate thread. At this time of year of all times. How will people feel coming onto boards and seeing their pain and misery trivialised in a pointless debate to label people who are the most vulnerable in society.

Xluna

shanehillview wrote: »

What an inconsiderate thread. At this time of year of all times. How will people feel coming onto boards and seeing their pain and misery trivialised in a pointless debate to label people who are the most vulnerable in society.

Agreed.

I'm not sure whether the R.C.C. still considers it a sin or not but I know why they made it a sin. When the Christians where being persecuted in Roman times many were eager to become martyrs that they sought persecution from Roman officials. There are primary documents which records Roman soldiers avoiding fanatical Christians who would have passively sought martrydom. The church knew Christianity could'nt grow if this continued so they made suicide a sin.

PDN

Xluna wrote: »

Agreed.

I'm not sure whether the R.C.C. still considers it a sin or not but I know why they made it a sin. When the Christians where being persecuted in Roman times many were eager to become martyrs that they sought persecution from Roman officials. There are primary documents which records Roman soldiers avoiding fanatical Christians who would have passively sought martrydom. The church knew Christianity could'nt grow if this continued so they made suicide a sin.

Whoever told you that was pulling your leg.

Suicide was first declared a sin by the Church in the Sixth Century - at least 200 years after persecution of Christians ceased in the Roman Empire.

Xluna

PDN wrote: »

Whoever told you that was pulling your leg.

Suicide was first declared a sin by the Church in the Sixth Century - at least 200 years after persecution of Christians ceased in the Roman Empire.

A history lecturer,who specialised in that era. It would have been at the end of the main era of Christian persecution, when Christianity was pretty much tolerated.They refused to pay lip service to official Pagan customs.

PDN

Xluna wrote: »

A history lecturer,who specialised in that era. It was a good while ago so I can't remember all the details but that was more or less the essence of what he said. What was the rationale for making suicide a sin from your knowledge?

The rationale was that suicide was breaking the commandment against murder. That's what Augustine argued in "The City of God".

Historically, of course, the periods when most Christians have been martyred for their faith have also been the times when the Church has grown the most. This led Tertullian to make his famous claim that "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church".

Xluna

The Donatists...I had a feeling it had something to do with them.

In the early Christian era suicide was not only tolerated, but condoned by the church, as a result certain sects such as the Donatists and the Circumcellions jumped off cliffs in great numbers to hasten an afterlife that promised greater rewards than those found on jolly old earth.
Faced with the loss of so many of its members, and rapidly shrinking collection plates, in (about) the sixth century the church decided that anyone else who committed suicide was going to hell.

The Donatists, of whom St Augustine said, "...to kill themselves out of respect for martyrdom is their daily sport." They were noted for jumping from cliffs, and also burned themselves to death in large numbers.
They are probably best known for their practice of stopping travelers and either paying them or threatening them with death to encourage them to kill the, presumably, heaven-bound martyr. The Donatists were eventually declared heretics and suppressed with a notable lack of Christian charity.

http://www.a1b2c3.com/suilodge/fachis1.htm

PDN

Xluna wrote: »

The Donatists...I had a feeling it had something to do with them.

In the early Christian era suicide was not only tolerated, but condoned by the church, as a result certain sects such as the Donatists and the Circumcellions jumped off cliffs in great numbers to hasten an afterlife that promised greater rewards than those found on jolly old earth.
Faced with the loss of so many of its members, and rapidly shrinking collection plates, in (about) the sixth century the church decided that anyone else who committed suicide was going to hell.

The Donatists, of whom St Augustine said, "...to kill themselves out of respect for martyrdom is their daily sport." They were noted for jumping from cliffs, and also burned themselves to death in large numbers.
They are probably best known for their practice of stopping travelers and either paying them or threatening them with death to encourage them to kill the, presumably, heaven-bound martyr. The Donatists were eventually declared heretics and suppressed with a notable lack of Christian charity.

http://www.a1b2c3.com/suilodge/fachis1.htm

For a more accurate, and less sensational, account of the Donatists I would recommend Alistair McGrath's recent book "Heresy" or skim through the wikipedia article on them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donatist

Hangsangwich

Nowadays, the word sin has a lot of negative connotations. Lots of people prefer to say something is not sinful, because they refuse to admit that they are sinners.
However, we are all sinners. St. John wrote in an epistle that those who say they are without sin are liars.
The ancient Hebrew word for sin was an archery term which meant missing the mark(target). I think this is a healthier way for us to look at the word "sin".
Therefore, yes, suicide is in itself sinful. The gravity of the sin may be mitigated by circumstances such as the state of mind of the deceased.
With regard to whether this person will gain eternal life is not really for anyone only God to decide. The Catholic Church has declared many people saints, but has never declared anyone to have suffered damnation to hell.
The Catholic Church no longer presumes to underestimate the mercy of God with regard to those who take their own lives. A suicide victim may have the opportunity to repent between the act of suicide and God's judgement.
Suicide is a horrible tragedy, and most people have been affected by suicide in their life. But lets not play God. Better to pray for those troubled souls.

Stephentlig

I just lost a cousin in 2005 and recently a neighbor due to this sin over New years and I got the message today that he had hung himself, I prayed as soon as I heard it although I was shocked on hearing it at first.

The Father of a young boy who had taken his life came to talk to us at St.Patricks Cathedral Dundalk on suicide and he was very brave to be able to stand up there and speak about it.

The following is the Catholic churches teaching on Suicide.


Suicide

[URL="javascript:openWindow('cr/2280.htm');"]2280[/URL] Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

[URL="javascript:openWindow('cr/2281.htm');"]2281[/URL] Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

[URL="javascript:openWindow('cr/2282.htm');"]2282[/URL] If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide. [URL="javascript:openWindow('cr/2283.htm');"]2283[/URL] We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

God bless, and my prayers are with all those gone and who have been left behind.

Stephen

Antbert

It's something I've never understood, and now even less so, especially after the debate between PDN and Xluna. As far as I'm aware it was at some point definitely considered a sin, so I don't see how these things just... change. Do they change with society's values? If so, will that eventually make the whole idea of sin in Christianity a bit meaningless? Or maybe Christianity is updated, for want of a better term, which is surely (big picture wise) no bad thing.

Anyway, a year ago, to the best of my knowledge, suicide was considered a sin. However, someone I knew shot himself and had a Catholic funeral and there was a lot of talk about him looking down on us from Heaven. It pissed me off then and it pisses me off now.

Hangsangwich

There is far too much emphasis on eulogising the dead, and not enough emphasis on prayers of intercedence and penance on behalf of the dead.
Today, funerals are more about honouring the memory of the deceased and keeping their family happy than actually praying to God. This is because there is a lack of faith.

Antbert

Hangsangwich wrote: »

There is far too much emphasis on eulogising the dead, and not enough emphasis on prayers of intercedence and penance on behalf of the dead.
Today, funerals are more about honouring the memory of the deceased and keeping their family happy than actually praying to God. This is because there is a lack of faith.

What? Have you actually been to a funeral?

The one I went to lately was the polar opposite (and as such really, really annoyed me, but y'know, up to the family). There was almost no mention of the guy that died.

And are you actually implying there's something wrong with honouring the deceased and keeping their family happy? I almost feel like I'm feeding a troll, reading that, but I can't be sure.

irishgirl2009

it is a very selfish thing to do...not a sin

EI111

irishgirl2009 wrote: »

it is a very selfish thing to do...not a sin

I can't stand people who say this.
Many people who commit suicide probably think they are doing society a favor as they see themselves as worthless.

Such an egocentric point of view, the suffering it causes to loved ones can't be compared to the pain the person themselves went through.

Hangsangwich

Antbert wrote: »

What? Have you actually been to a funeral?

The one I went to lately was the polar opposite (and as such really, really annoyed me, but y'know, up to the family). There was almost no mention of the guy that died.

And are you actually implying there's something wrong with honouring the deceased and keeping their family happy? I almost feel like I'm feeding a troll, reading that, but I can't be sure.

Fair point. Except that I said "honouring the MEMORY of the dead".
I should put it a better way. Talking about what a wonderful life the dead lived and how they are up in Heaven is not really going to help them get to Heaven. Whereas I believe prayers and penance for the soul of the dead will. In fact, comforting family and friends that their Johnny is up in heaven might actually prevent the family from taking time to pray for them.

Hangsangwich

irishgirl2009 wrote: »

it is a very selfish thing to do...not a sin

Selfishness is in itself sinful.
Actually, once it was even considered a sin to eat shellfish

Antbert

Hangsangwich wrote: »

Fair point. Except that I said "honouring the MEMORY of the dead".

No idea why that makes a difference.

I should put it a better way. Talking about what a wonderful life the dead lived and how they are up in Heaven is not really going to help them get to Heaven. Whereas I believe prayers and penance for the soul of the dead will. In fact, comforting family and friends that their Johnny is up in heaven might actually prevent the family from taking time to pray for them.

Pointless persuing this, because I'm an atheist so we'd be discussing it from two very different viewpoints.

sold

kev9100 wrote: »

Suicide is not a sin. Its a tragedy.

Suicide IS a sin, but we can't judge the mental state of the person to be able to say if they sinned. A sin is an act commited with your will and knowledge. Mentally ill people who kill or take their own lifes commited a wrong act but may not have sinned.

Xluna

irishgirl2009 wrote: »

it is a very selfish thing to do...not a sin

One could turn that argument on it's head and say the family and friends of the suicidal person are selfish for wanting him/her to live in torment just so they don't have to feel grief. Everyone has limits. Your limits were obviously not tested. Don't judge so easily.