Dublin Bus Network Map

KC61

A new Dublin Bus network map has been released, using the spider map style employed by TfL. First impressions are very good I have to say - it's fairly clear and easy to follow. A major step forward in terms of passenger information.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/Route-Network-Diagram/

Dublin Bus is pleased to advise customers that a spider diagram of the Dublin Bus Network across the Greater Dublin Area is now available in our Head Office, 59 Upper O’Connell Street, Dublin 1 and to download as a PDF here (http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/2814/NetworkDiagram.pdf). Customers should note that due to the level of detail included the map is best printed to A3 if possible.

Rawr

Wow. Not bad at all.
Fair play on DB for finally making this.

With a little effort, they could have probably done this years ago. But it exists now, and that's what matters.

devnull

That is pretty good, and is exactly the kind of map we have needed for a while, whilst there is still a lot of work for DB to do to have anywhere near the kind of information that is needed throughout the city, this along with the stops on maps feature is a good start and big step forward, but there are still many more to be taken.

Cookie_Monster

That's pretty good actually.

That said still no recognition of the fact that the one 7B goes to Cherrywood.
Though the depot still deny this too.

loyatemu

its pretty good, though it does give the somewhat false impression that you can get anywhere in the city by following the pretty interconnecting lines (you can but only if you've got all day). In reality many of the routes are very infrequent - perhaps this could be indicated in some way (dotted lines for anything with a less-than 20 mins frequency maybe). There's also no sign of the X routes.

Getting parochial I note that while major destinations such as "Captains Hill" and "Newgrove Cross" are listed on page 2, Greystones and Kilcoole are not.

KC61

loyatemu wrote: »

its pretty good, though it does give the somewhat false impression that you can get anywhere in the city by following the pretty interconnecting lines (you can but only if you've got all day). In reality many of the routes are very infrequent - perhaps this could be indicated in some way (dotted lines for anything with a less-than 20 mins frequency maybe). There's also no sign of the X routes.

Getting parochial I note that while major destinations such as "Captains Hill" and "Newgrove Cross" are listed on page 2, Greystones and Kilcoole are not.

I think you have to bear in mind that it is a map not a timetable. I would think that dotted lines would only confuse the user.

It does specifically say at the top left that it does not include Xpresso and Nitelink routes on the map - I suspect they may be planning separate guides for those.

The index could do with some improvement, I would agree.

Cookie_Monster

Not strictly related to the map but how did they come up with those letters for the stops in town.

What a mess of confusing mumbo jumbo

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Not strictly related to the map but how did they come up with those letters for the stops in town.

What a mess of confusing mumbo jumbo

It's not actually when you think of it:

In each area the second letter is sequentially lettered A, B, C, D etc.

The first letter refers to the geographical area, so you have:
Parnell Square - P
O'Connell Street - O
Trinity College - C
Nassau Street - N
St Stephen's Green - S
Aston Quay (and south quays) - A
Eden Quay (and north quays) - E

So you get PA - Stop A at Parnell Square

It's a new way of thinking and it's worked pretty well in London.

Cookie_Monster

Yeah but if you don't know the names of places it meaningless regardless

Should use letter number combo, be easier.

Why is there no differenciation between northbound southbound westbound and eastbound busstops in general, that would be more useful

KC61

Just to expand on the city centre bus stops - there are more detailed maps online of each of the areas at:

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/City-Centre-Bus-Stops/

Click onto one of the areas and you will get a more detailed map with the stops highlighted.

loyatemu

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Yeah but if you don't know the names of places it meaningless regardless

Should use letter number combo, be easier.

It sounds like a reasonable system to me - you decide where you want to go (so long as its not Greystones or Kilcoole), check the index to see which stop you need, and then check the map to see where it is. Simple enough.

tom payne

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Should use letter number combo, be easier.

Do you not think it might get confusion to have a letter number combo for the stop codes when they use letter number combos on the buses?

"catch the 27c from 5d, or you might want to walk to Parnell Square and catch the 13a from 12g"

Seems like that would be more confusing to me...

Metrobest

KC61 wrote: »

A new Dublin Bus network map has been released, using the spider map style employed by TfL. First impressions are very good I have to say - it's fairly clear and easy to follow. A major step forward in terms of passenger information.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/Route-Network-Diagram/

The map looks absolutely horrendous to me and more confusing than ever. Mutton cannot be dressed as lamb. Until somebody sits down and sorts out Dublin Bus's medieval route network, there is no point wasting tens of thousands of euros on graphic design consultants creating maps that will have no utility for anybody except Dublin Bus management who will claim that they have now 'done something'. Still, good to know that Dublin Bus is still good at wasting money, even in a recession some things never change....

KC61

I think that you could wait and wait and wait to produce a map.

There is a basis for going forward now, which presumably can be updated fairly easily.

People have given out for ages here and on other forums about no online map - therefore I think it is something that is needed and I fundamentally have to disagree with you about it being wasteful.

Spider maps are easy to follow and I have yet to see a clearer method of depicting the network.

The network review will follow next year but the improvement in information has to start somewhere. This is in my view a big step forward in that context.

ad hoc

Metrobest wrote: »

The map looks absolutely horrendous to me and more confusing than ever. Mutton cannot be dressed as lamb. Until somebody sits down and sorts out Dublin Bus's medieval route network, there is no point wasting tens of thousands of euros on graphic design consultants creating maps that will have no utility for anybody except Dublin Bus management who will claim that they have now 'done something'. Still, good to know that Dublin Bus is still good at wasting money, even in a recession some things never change....

Bah! Humbug!

Metrobest

I suppose it is a step forward, on some level. Let's wait and see what the network review brings!

Gurgle

Metrobest wrote: »

The map looks absolutely horrendous to me and more confusing than ever. Mutton cannot be dressed as lamb. Until somebody sits down and sorts out Dublin Bus's medieval route network, there is no point wasting tens of thousands of euros on graphic design consultants creating maps that will have no utility for anybody except Dublin Bus management who will claim that they have now 'done something'. Still, good to know that Dublin Bus is still good at wasting money, even in a recession some things never change....

Couldn't agree more.
This is a pile of useless kack.
How hard would it have been to overlay it on a street map ffs?

Cookie_Monster

Gurgle wrote: »

How hard would it have been to overlay it on a street map ffs?

a bit too big then to be usefully accurate then...

Vic_08

Gurgle wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.
This is a pile of useless kack.
How hard would it have been to overlay it on a street map ffs?

It is an overview diagram to give a general view of the entire network and connections.

A full streetmap with all bus routes traced has been available for many years.

noelfirl

I don't see how anyone cant see the spider map as a step up from below (albeit anything would be a step up)


Anyway I thought the idea was eventually to have individual spider maps for areas with concise information on stops where routes intersect, etc., to replace the (already removed) ordinance survey maps at bus stops. Personally I thinks the draft is nice, simple and straightforward, and is a good first step.

Chris_533976

Good idea, even though the city centre is terribly confusing.

What they need to do is a flash based version where you can zoom in and out and exact routes are shown. And the ability to turn on and off each route as you go.

triple-M

would anybody happen to have a link to any other cities around ireland including belfast's transport network map ??

Mrs OBumble

triple-M wrote: »

would anybody happen to have a link to any other cities around ireland including belfast's transport network map ??

Galway's is here. It's "unofficial", produced by one business-systems-analyst doing this as a hobby and using only free tools. But - critical point - it includes city services provided by ALL operators, not just the dominant company.

There's a regional one that I'm not at all happy with - but I can't figure out how to do it better with these tools, and anyway I know that it's hardly ever looked at.

Looking way outside Ireland, this is an interesting one. It covers one city that's a bit like Cork, three other cities the same-ish size as Waterford, and quite a few rural areas in between. And notice how you can zoom in/out, right inside the page. I've seen it on big customer display signs in the city, and 'twas very handy.

Mrs OBumble

Metrobest wrote: »

The map looks absolutely horrendous to me and more confusing than ever. Mutton cannot be dressed as lamb. Until somebody sits down and sorts out Dublin Bus's medieval route network, there is no point wasting tens of thousands of euros on graphic design consultants creating maps that will have no utility for anybody except Dublin Bus management who will claim that they have now 'done something'. Still, good to know that Dublin Bus is still good at wasting money, even in a recession some things never change....

Having been a tourist in Dublin, I couldn't disagree more. Would have loved to get my hands on something like this, which helps people to understand the way the city is laid out, as well as where the buses go. There is a knack to reading them, though (you can't be too literal), and they really don't work for some people.

Even if there are fundamental problems with how the routes are currently organised, that's NOT an excuse to put off doing a map. It could be years, even decades, before that's sorted, and newcomers need to figure out how to catch the bus tomorrow!

Metrobest

Here's Amsterdam's with every bus (public and private), tram, ferry and metro. A large blown-up version of this map is displayed at every stop. Being geographical, it's also very handy if you are going by bike to an unfamiliar area!

http://www.gvb.nl/reizigers/toegankelijkov/Documents/Lijnenkaart-dec09-kaartzijde.pdf

Metrobest

JustMary wrote: »

Having been a tourist in Dublin, I couldn't disagree more. Would have loved to get my hands on something like this, which helps people to understand the way the city is laid out, as well as where the buses go. There is a knack to reading them, though (you can't be too literal), and they really don't work for some people

To understand the way the city is laid out a map needs to have landmarks. The only geographical reference on this map is the river Lifffey...

stop

Bit of Google Transit would be nice.

Getting rid of the OS maps from stops was a step backwards I believe. Spider maps clarify the fare structure, but thats about it, they offer zero information as to detailed locations a bus goes near.

Mrs OBumble

stop wrote: »

Bit of Google Transit would be nice.

It's a hard call, though. If I worked for a council, I'd find it hard to be recommending that we should adopt Google as our IT tool for delivering public-transport geographical information.

• To make printed copies, we'd have to buy licences from Google. Initially the pricing probably - I'm guessing here) be very reasonable. But after we invested a lot of time/money loading our data into Google, we'd be locked in to whatever pricing model they want to move to in the future.
  
• Also, we'd have little or no control over the delivery method and some of the other content that's also delivered at the same time (ads, and also some of Google's user-generated content, eg "landmarks" which are in the wrong place, or described in ways that we don't like 'em described).

There are some counter-arguments too, about the accessibility, level of public acceptance and functionality. But I'm not sure if they'd be strong enough to convince senior managers that it's worth the risks involved. (Remembering that they're spending public money, so should be fully accountable/responsible for using it well.)

KC61

stop wrote: »

Bit of Google Transit would be nice.

Getting rid of the OS maps from stops was a step backwards I believe. Spider maps clarify the fare structure, but thats about it, they offer zero information as to detailed locations a bus goes near.

Well reading the signs on the stops I would say that the plan is for new street maps (similar to the city centre map at http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/City-Centre-Bus-Stops/OConnell-Street-Bus-Stops/ ) developed for the individual bus stops.

I would imagine that the OS licence was costing an arm and a leg.

What the spider map provides is a simple overview of the bus network and where the bus routes go.

Both are necessary and I would say again that this is a start, as are the provision of proper laminated signage on bus stops when diversions are in place, and the introduction of the trueform bus stops in the city centre.

Gurgle

That bus map is exactly the same style / format as...
This,thisand this
Its a very useful, internationally recognized format.
For trains

KC61

Gurgle wrote: »

That bus map is exactly the same style / format as...
This,thisand this
Its a very useful, internationally recognized format.
For trains

It is also exactly the format that Transport for London use for their bus network. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaround/maps/buses/pdf/trafalgarsquare-2262.pdf

As I said above, my understanding is that there will still be a local map on bus stops, but schematic maps are far easier to follow. This is a schematic overview of the route network and that needs to be borne in mind.

If you want a full map with streets and bus routes marked in, then the Ordnance Survey do exactly that!

Metrobest

KC61 wrote: »

It is also exactly the format that Transport for London use for their bus network. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaround/maps/buses/pdf/trafalgarsquare-2262.pdf

As I said above, my understanding is that there will still be a local map on bus stops, but schematic maps are far easier to follow.

If you want a full map with streets and bus routes marked in, then the Ordnance Survey do exactly that!

That map is just a diagram of routes leaving from Trafalgar Square and it doesn't have the level of clutter as Dublin Bus's map. A similar spider diagram of routes out of College Green, Parnell Sq, etc, displayed at those locations, might be somewhat useful.

If I want to see good bus maps, I would look at Paris, Barcelona or Amsterdam. London is not a best practice to follow.

This new Dublin Bus spider map gives the false impression that Dublin is equipped with an extensive, interconnected bus network.

It also misses out on important city landmarks. The Spire, the Phoenix Park, Trinity College.

Cool Mo D

Metrobest wrote: »

That map is just a diagram of routes leaving from Trafalgar Square and it doesn't have the level of clutter as Dublin Bus's map. A similar spider diagram of routes out of College Green, Parnell Sq, etc, displayed at those locations, might be somewhat useful.

If I want to see good bus maps, I would look at Paris, Barcelona or Amsterdam. London is not a best practice to follow.

This new Dublin Bus spider map gives the false impression that Dublin is equipped with an extensive, interconnected bus network.

It also misses out on important city landmarks. The Spire, the Phoenix Park, Trinity College.

The Phoenix Park and Trinity College are both explicitly mentioned on the map, as is O'Connell street for the spire.

I personally think the map is excellent, but it needs to be paired with the dublinbus.ie website for full effect.
You can now easily look up what bus routes serve the general area you want on this map, and then check the exact individual routes on the google map provided on the website.

I do agree though, that another map with all the low frequency services taken off should be produced - a map with services that have an off-peak service of every half hour or better should be provided.

Chris_533976

Heres Munichs. Rail, tram and (major) bus routes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/VerkehrsnetzMuenchen2008.png

dowlingm

Two bits of fail

1. No pretence at indicating other modes like rail and tram (too busy "competing" with them) - this map should be a DTA/NTA/whateveryou'rehavingyourself production, especially given its TFL provenance.

2. Wot's an I.S.F.C.?

Sulmac

Metrobest wrote: »

Here's Amsterdam's with every bus (public and private), tram, ferry and metro. A large blown-up version of this map is displayed at every stop. Being geographical, it's also very handy if you are going by bike to an unfamiliar area!

http://www.gvb.nl/reizigers/toegankelijkov/Documents/Lijnenkaart-dec09-kaartzijde.pdf

That map is excellent; the exact same kind of thing for Dublin is what is needed for every bus stop, Luas halt and train station - along with real-time information at every bus stop (complete with bus shelter) and timetables showing the time that a bus should depart from that stop - none of this "from terminus" crap.

Another thing Dublin needs is the Nitelink service every night in some shape or form, as well as some (limited) services on Christmas Day.

However, this new map is still a good start, but they've still a long way to go.

dowlingm

Toronto Transit Commission:
Full System Map (PDF 1.25Mb, showing adjoining routes run by neighbouring systems, posted in stations and many shelters)
Night Routes (PDF, 0.2Mb)
Downtown Core (PDF, 0.2Mb)
Accessible Routes (PDF 1.4Mb)
Bike Rack equipped routes (PDF 1.4Mb)

What we don't have is a shaggin' trip planner because four years later they're still trying to figure it out, even though a bunch of volunteers built one in months.

Ernest

The map is quite nice for the suburbs but all routes stop at a huge black hole that is the city centre where there is no information of where exactly each bus route goes.
Still, a slight improvement from the people who brought us buses that won't take banknotes or give change and which abolished prepaid packs of tickets before introducing smart cards.

Capt'n Midnight

KC61 wrote: »

Well reading the signs on the stops I would say that the plan is for new street maps (similar to the city centre map at http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/City-Centre-Bus-Stops/OConnell-Street-Bus-Stops/ ) developed for the individual bus stops.

I would imagine that the OS licence was costing an arm and a leg.

All the bus stops are on Google Maps

They could get maps free from open street map. DB should have a list of stops already (see above)

KC61

Metrobest wrote: »

That map is just a diagram of routes leaving from Trafalgar Square and it doesn't have the level of clutter as Dublin Bus's map. A similar spider diagram of routes out of College Green, Parnell Sq, etc, displayed at those locations, might be somewhat useful.

Reading the notice at my bus shelter again last night, it would appear that the intention is to have local spider maps at bus shelters, together with a local street map in the same design as the city centre maps already referred to.

I think we need to be patient here - there are encouraging signs and hopefully as the network review takes shape next year we'll see these maps rolled out.

Colm R

The map is good, albeit with some faults.

But really gets me is I think this is Dublin Bus trying to become the dominant player in the NTA.

Most people would agree that a serious reorginasation/simplification of the bus routes is badly needed and this is probably in the domain of the NTA. So what I worry about is the cost of:

1. Produce the map that is publish now.

2. Put all these local Spider and OS maps at local bus stops.

3. Replace these maps with NTA maps at the bus stops.

MiniD

I agree this is a step forward, but it could be better.

There is no consistency with parts of this map and the Dublin Bus website or it's timetables.

For example, Dartry is listed as being the terminus for the 128 and 142, which is correct. The problem is, buses and timetables display Rathmines. If you look up Dartry on the Dublin Bus website, the closest thing you get is Dartry Road, and that just displays 14A.

It's similar with route 19. The map lists route 19 as terminating in Inchicore. Nowhere on the Dublin Bus website or timetable is route 19 mentioned as serving Inchicore. Try search Inchicore on the "place name" section, you'll see the one route missing is Route 19.

The index is missing large parts of Dublin. If you were a tourist needing to find a bus to Raheny, Crumlin or Templeogue you would be a long time searching that map. Yet, the index includes places like Poolbeg, which has 2 buses a day and is used by a handful of people.

There are key routes missing from the index. For example, the busiest service on Leeson Street is the 46A. There is no mention of this route on the index for Leeson Steet. It's similar for places like Drimnagh Road and Dundrum, which are missing busy routes.

It would be better if this map didn't have an index at all, rather than leave out information and exclude orbital routes.

Aard

This diagram is good for one thing for sure - it points out the ridiculous baroqueness of the network! So many convoluted routes. They're trying to please everyone and end up pleasing no-one. A very Irish way of thinking.

Cookie_Monster

Incidentally the 10a to Stillorgan is wrong too.

KC61

The 10a does operate to Stillorgan. Some journeys have however been curtailed to UCD for health and safety reasons.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

The 10a does operate to Stillorgan. Some journeys have however been curtailed to UCD for health and safety reasons.

Ah, i thought they cut them all...

dowlingm

health and safety? Like overcrowding?

KC61

Lack of space at Stillorgan while buses lay over for their next journey I believe.

Sulmac

After my last post on this thread, I e-mailed the new National Transport Authority giving the ideas (I encourage you all to do the same if you have the time!) that I outlined here already (such as an integrated map like Amsterdam's, decent timetables, smartcards, etc.).

To my (pleasant) surprise I got an e-mail this morning back, here's what it said:

Dear ________,

Thank you for your suggestions. We agree strongly with the points you make.
The National Transport Authority (established 1/12/09) will be picking up on an item in the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 which states that the Authority will publish information for all modes of transport.

My view is that this will take the shape of integrated information for all stops/stations (not just termini) nationally.

It will be both electronic and paper based.

As we are a young organisation, we actually haven’t set the work into motion yet but I believe it will in the work programme for 2010.

In the meantime, a couple of gentlemen built this tool privately some time ago which is quite useful. http://www.justroutes.com/

Yours sincerely,

_______ ________

It looks promising.

Colm R

Sulmac wrote: »

After my last post on this thread, I e-mailed the new National Transport Authority giving the ideas (I encourage you all to do the same if you have the time!) that I outlined here already (such as an integrated map like Amsterdam's, decent timetables, smartcards, etc.).

To my (pleasant) surprise I got an e-mail this morning back, here's what it said:



It looks promising.

It does look promising. The first time I have seen anything that would indicate a change in how Public Transport works in this country. I fear someone sitting in an office in Heuston or Connolly fears that somebody else is stepping on their territory and lobby a certain minister to do something about it.

lola576

I thought I'd bring this thread back to life, hopefully. I have never been to Ireland and am planning a trip to Dublin which will be the base I will travel from, using Heuston rail Station mostly. Could someone help me to understand how I can find the bus that takes me from Central Station to Heuston by reading this map? I don't understand the bus system at all!!
I'm trying to travel on a budget; and hate to have to spend money on cab's because I can't figure out how to ride the bus!