Nationalism and the Irish Language

junder · 20-01-2010 11:57AM

republicans have used the Irish language to fuel the idea cultral supority to the protestant cutral identy here in northern ireland, it became a weapon and as a result insured most unionists/loyalists would not tpuch the language with a barge poll, much is made of the likes of gusty spence speaking irish, however the reality was the reason why he and others learnt irish was so the could understand what republicans in other cells were talking about and not for some misty eyed desire to get intouch with irish roots

Herbal Deity · 20-01-2010 03:26PM

Agreed. The prevalance of English is even beginning to threaten the likes of French in France, with preservation laws already in force.

I'm not so sure that these are in the majority, however.

That's a fallacy. I don't know what it was like when you were in school, but the depressing reality is that most students these days don't pick subjects due to interest or because they think it will be useful, but because of how likely they are to do well in it. Honours Irish is a very hard paper. Were the Irish LC exam similar to the French or German LC exam, you can bet that it'd have much more doing it at honours level.

Permabear · 20-01-2010 03:43PM

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Herbal Deity · 20-01-2010 03:57PM

No, it's an objectively much harder exam than French or German, which it should be closer to.

It's not exactly a walk in the park for those in Gaelscoileanna, I can't even begin to think how those not immersed in an Irish speaking environment cope with it.

Permabear · 20-01-2010 04:11PM

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The Corinthian · 20-01-2010 04:46PM

By what measure is it an objectively much harder exam than French or German? I'm not saying you're wrong, you actually may be correct, just curious to know.

Even so, given donegalfella's figures (as well as the fair point that you cannot compare them on a level of complexity given Irish is taught for so much longer) you do have to ask yourself if an odd 14k students are at the level of sitting the honours Irish paper, this must mean that there are hundreds of thousands of near fluent speakers in Ireland at this stage. There's not though.

TBH, I do think there's been enough Irish bashing at this stage and the message that the language is in serious decline should have hit home by now (assuming one does not live in De Valeran fantasy land).

The big question is what to do next? Can the language be saved (and if it can I do believe it should be)? If so how? What realistically needs to change.

metrovelvet · 20-01-2010 05:06PM

Why should it be saved?

Wibbs · 20-01-2010 05:14PM

I have to agree with Herbal Deity on this point. Casting my mind waaaaay back to when I did French for the leaving. Honours French was less involved than honours Irish. The pass Irish paper was more like the honours French as far as the level of fluency that was required. then again this was back in the 1700's so things may well have changed

The Corinthian · 20-01-2010 05:16PM

Because as a language, with its history and literature, it does merit conservation. Because the being bilingual is a positive thing for any nation or culture. Because it is still spoken, albeit daily by a tiny minority, within our society. And ultimately because while it may no longer be as key to Irish culture as it once was, it is still part of it.

This does not mean that we should keep it alive for the sake of keeping it alive, especially with the level of resources that have been employed and squandered to date. Nor does it mean that it should necessarily be forced upon people as it has been since independence - without success. Or that we should try to keep it alive if it has already gone beyond the point whereby it can be saved.

However, there is enough merit in preserving it, if we can, are not too late and as long as we accept that there are limits to how far we should go to do so.

BennyLava · 20-01-2010 05:37PM

I have always thought that the best way to help promote the Irish language is to let people choose to learn it, making it a compulsory subject in secondary school is counter productive
Generally ,in my opinion, teens, with their developing sense of individuality are more prone to reject been forced to learn a subject, relatively few of them can see any practical use for,

A better way of increasing and improving the development of Irish, would be to expand the gaelscoil method and conduct all primary school education through the medium of Irish (kids are natural sponges at this age), then when they go to secondary school, let Irish be an optional subject

I guarantee that, over the course of a few years, the usage of Irish would increase among young people (a means of communication most adults won't be able to understand) as well as an increase in the proficiency of said speakers

Permabear · 20-01-2010 05:38PM

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The Corinthian · 20-01-2010 06:10PM

Sorry, I meant revive rather than preserve - the latter would apply only if revival is no longer feasible. Presently I see the current situation as neither, but more akin to a repeated quickening.

Herbal Deity · 20-01-2010 08:10PM

Closer to, not exactly the same as.

It's similar in standard to English, the exams mirror each other quite similarly. The question, "why should a language that has only been taught and spoken in schools be examined analogously to one's mother tongue, which is constantly used?" arises.

There has to be a balance. The standard should be higher than French and lower than English.

That's true of every LC subject, sadly.

It is possible to get value out of the LC courses, but it's so, so easy to take the cynical approach, and with the pressure surrounding the points race, the majority of students learn how to do exams in certain subjects, not the subjects themselves. And many teachers fully endorse and teach this.

Valmont · 21-01-2010 12:43AM

I think the policy makers would do well to read this thread!

Grudaire · 21-01-2010 12:13PM

The 20 year plan draft is available here: http://www.pobail.ie/ie/AnGhaeilge/

Perhaps you should take the idea's to them instead of assuming that Irish language policy makers will be trawling the humanities forum for inspiration :rolleyes:

Permabear · 23-01-2010 12:44AM

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Grudaire · 23-01-2010 01:13AM

Oooops, I actually meant to check that when boards.ie went down

Sorry...

Anyway there are a lot of strong opinions on the thread, and there's no harm in letting the people who can do something to change it know!

Valmont · 23-01-2010 07:50PM

I was merely remarking on the quality of discussion in this thread. I don't for one second actually think that the Department of Community, Rural, and Gaeltacht affairs would take on board any of the more rational proposals mentioned over the course of this discussion.

Grudaire · 23-01-2010 09:49PM

I guess the below has changed then?:

The Corinthian · 24-01-2010 12:34PM

The draft document on that page is a pretty depressing example of a strategy document cobbled together by a committee, completely bereft of anything new.

I better make a confession at this stage - I used to be a member of Fianna Fail in my student days. I know, I know.

Anyhow, we were once given an audience with Mary O'Rourke when she was minister of Education and someone raised the issue of the decline of the Irish language and how the manner in which it was being forced upon students, not to mention taught, was actually counter productive to the language.

She shot him down with the argument that "we're all members of Fianna Fail and as such support the language's promotion". End of discussion. There was no debate on whether the promotion as it was being carried out was detrimental or not.

Genuinely, while letting the powers that be know our thoughts on this is a good idea in theory, I'm not certain if it will actually make any difference. It's not simply Fianna Fail that behaves this way, I believe all of the political parties treat the issue as the elephant in the middle of the room that no one wants to acknowledge and that the portion of the civil service that is directly responsible for the language most of all wants to retain this status quo. There appears to be an entire industry of grants and tax breaks and jobs for the boys that no one wants to upset, even if it ultimately kills the language.

Pretty depressing.

Permabear · 24-01-2010 01:31PM

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Herbal Deity · 24-01-2010 02:22PM

I think this comment kinda indicates your view of the level of Irish that actually exists in Irish society is a large underestimation.

Also, your comment seems to indicate that you don't think second level Gaelscoileanna exist (??)

In my all Irish secondary school, in Dublin, I did honours Chemistry and Maths, and both my teachers had good Irish. In fact, all my teachers could speak Irish well, besides a few student teachers when I was in first year, and even then, they picked it up and attained reasonable fluency within a few months.

So who will teach, or rather, who currently does teach second level subjects through Irish?
- Teachers who went to Gaelscoileanna themselves, often past pupils of the school they teach at.
- Teachers who, believe it or not, happen to have good Irish despite attending English speaking secondary schools. A lot of people come out of school with the potential to gain fluency rapidly were they to actually speak it from day to day, but don't have any reason to. 2 months teaching in an Irish speaking school and a teacher will be fluent in spoken Irish.
- Native speakers.

I don't know what you mean by this...

Do you mean there doesn't exist the vocabulary in Irish to teach these subjects? If so, then I assure you, there does.

A friend of mine is currently doing a Business course through Irish in DCU. (http://www.dcu.ie/fiontar/index_en.shtml)

Also, as an aside, it seems NUI is going to be scrapped, which indicates Irish may no longer be effectively compulsory at second level. I think students will still be obliged to attend Irish classes, but not have any reason to need to do well in the exam, and this could possibly be a stepping stone to making the subject completely voluntary.
http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/scrapping-nui--will-hurt-the-irish-language--okeeffe-told-2024478.html

Permabear · 24-01-2010 03:32PM

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Herbal Deity · 24-01-2010 04:05PM

Well, as I said above, I think enough people come out of secondary school with the potential to gain fluency in Irish were they to speak it on a daily basis.

If there's a demand for teachers who can speak Irish, I don't think that's going to be a major deterrent

Well, there's a difference between the English/Irish hybrid you hear some people using when they are beginning to attain fluency, and the existence of terms for specialised subjects.

Some modern, scientific words are Gaelicized versions of their English counterparts, but English being the lingua franca, you will see the same in French or German.

Huh? It's not a course in conducting business through Irish, it's a business course which is taught through Irish.

I don't really know what your point is here.

I dunno. There's a lot of ignorance and misinformation surrounding university matriculation requirements. For years, students wishing to attend TCD or UL, or any college outside the handful under the NUI umbrella, have not strictly had to sit, let alone pass, any Irish exam, and yet, you don't really see many not doing so. Similarly, you don't need to pass maths to get into many courses which don't require it, and yet those who struggle immensly with it still persevere and sit the exam anyway. A lot of people seem to think you "fail your Leaving" if you don't pass English, Maths or Irish, which is completely untrue.

I imagine that most people will not immediately make the connection between the folding of NUI and the probable elimination of the Irish requirement for these universities.

Grudaire · 24-01-2010 06:56PM

Tbh Donegalfella, tl;dr

But I think ya're overly harsh on the 'right' to use Irish, I think that if the language has any proper hope to take in a big way, there must be a facilitation of Irish by State run services. Why teach Irish at all if you're going to force the use of english when it comes to dealing with the state (which it is necessary to do)

TG4 are by far the best Irish Chanel. Not only do they run more (+better) documentaries, and Sport than RTÉ, they do run great drama etc through Irish.

I think that it's acceptable to run some English language programs (http://tg4.ie/leir/luch.asp <- none of the shows you mention in the list

, yes plenty of English, but we wouldn't want to waste all your money on commissioning shows as Gaeilge

)

Permabear · 24-01-2010 07:16PM

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Valmont · 24-01-2010 07:43PM

Considering that this thread has moved away considerably from my original post, nothing has changed at all. Regarding the irrational government policies concerning the Irish language; I understand them perfectly. Any more petulance to throw at me?

Grudaire · 24-01-2010 07:46PM

I should first point out that Michael Ring is to be seen on record saying that the Údarás should not be removed, and that creating jobs in the Gaeltacht is of vital importance (which translated to me as: give my constituents jobs, considering he gave the entire oration through English!)

Firstly citation needed for the "nobody" bit of that link (I doubt half the anti State sponsored Irish side's argument wouldn't even be accepted by wikipedia :P)

I'm not supporting translating all documents, I think however if a demand does exist it should be translated. I would like to add that step one in saving money should be cutting out documents that nobody read in the first place. If they're not read in Irish, chances are few if any read them in English.

It's the simple stuff, if I want to get married (for instance) I go to this website: http://www.groireland.ie/getting_married.htm (which is totally through English), and then there is no 'obligation' for the Registrar to do the wedding through Irish (This comes from someone I know who works in the Registrar's office). Is that fair?

And I might add that you're barking up the wrong tree for good as Béarla programs on TG4, 8 Simple Rules, and True Blood are where it's at!

Grudaire · 24-01-2010 08:02PM

I do believe that you have a slight bias, despite the neutral OP

This thread was bound to be derailed, by militant Gaelgeoirs, and militant anti Gaelgeoirs. In fact I would go as far as to say that some of your posts derailed the thread ("spending lots of public funds on Irish", and "Why is Irish taught compulsorily? Is there an officially stated purpose for the entire endeavor?" are little better than red rags...)

You have stuck at the fringes of this thread, occasionally dipping in with stuff like:

As they say as gaeilge: Athníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile (ie takes one to know one ;P )

Valmont · 24-01-2010 09:11PM

Heaven forbid anyone should actually wonder why the government spends so much money on a dying language.

Nationalism and the Irish Language

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