Nationalism and the Irish Language

T runner

There is no shortage of courses, books, software packages, and the like for those who want to use them. But you are overlooking the obvious fact that the interest is not there among the current parenting population. Most are, at best, indifferent to Irish. Many would say, in the abstract, that they would like to have their children become fluent in the language—just as many aspire to have their children play the piano—and they may go so far as to send their children to an Irish-language school. But when it comes down to it, they are just not willing to make the effort to speak the language at home

The fact that they are making the big decision to send their chidren to Irish speaking schools clearly indicates they are interested in the language.( 33% of students learn more than one subject through Irish.) As you have agreed these parents want their children to speak Irish fluently. Speaking it in the home will ofcourse achieve this. They want their children to learn it badly enough to affect their school choice it would not be outlandish for them to consider speaking some Irish regularly at home to achieve this goal. IMO this is best achieved by having courses advice and tools available through the Gaelscoileanna their children are attending.

As was pointed out the government knows that there are Irish speaking students in these houses and getting parents and their children speaking in a language is the way to get it to stick.

These figures also seem to fly in the face of your old argument that no one is interested in the language

T runner

Wibbs wrote: »

That would sum it up alright. Lots of lip service but little lips service in Irish.

120,000 pupils use Irish as their Normal Language of Communication for at least one other subject(except Irish).

Plenty of lips service there no?

T runner

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Functional bilingualism shouldn't be a goal though IMO.

Increasing the amount of Irish speakers does seem to be a goal of the Government.

I think grants for Irish speaking households are ridiculous.

Im not suggesting grants for households Im suggesting courses in Irish speaking available to parents (of Gaelscoileanna students) through these schools to enable communication between parent and child to help develop the childs use of the language. The courses would focus on everyday functional speech and vocabulary.

It seems logical that targetting this group would bring the greatest returns in terms of more people speaking the language.

I admire your enthusiasm and idealism, T Runner, but I don't think you're being realistic.

But these parents are sending them to Irish speaking schools in order to have Irish or to benefit from having Irish in the future.
Are they being unrealistic in hoping that their children will have Irish?
They are not being forced to educate their children in Irish they are choosing to. Is it so un-realistic to suppose they might be persuaded to do a course and speak it at home if the argument and course was brought to them via the extremely accessible medium of their childs Gaelscoil?

As regards enthusiasm etc. I agree that linguistic and cultural diversity is a good thing and am glad that this idea is protected by Europe and by national governments.

Herbal Deity

T runner wrote: »

Increasing the amount of Irish speakers does seem to be a goal of the Government.

Indeed, but it shouldn't really be. I don't personally care what the government thinks.

T runner wrote: »

Im not suggesting grants for households Im suggesting courses in Irish speaking available to parents (of Gaelscoileanna students) through these schools to enable communication between parent and child to help develop the childs use of the language. The courses would focus on everyday functional speech and vocabulary.

I would imagine most Gaelscoileanna do (I know my old school ran adult Irish classes in the evenings).

While AFAIK they were reasonably well attended, I think you're being too optimistic in thinking that many parents would necessarily be hugely interested in learning the language themselves.

donegalfella's piano analogy is a good one. It's quite common for a parent to want their child to learn to play piano without having any desire to learn piano themselves.

And, like piano, many who learn it do so for x amount of years and then gradually let their skills fall into disuse, but it doesn't mean it wasn't worth learning it or that they should have spent the time in which they were learning piano learning something else more useful.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Source please. 1 third of the world would be Chinese(near enough) and few speak anything but various forms of chinese. I would agree that bilingualism is useful. Very much so. I would however argue which language would be useful as a second language. Most bilingual types would have their native language and then a world language as the second one. You would want to be high on crack to suggest Irish is our "native" language as it stands anyway. But as english is, then yes I can see some reasoning to add Irish, but French, or Cantonese would be more useful.

I lived and worked in the middle of China for close on a year as an English Teacher. I taught ages from 3 years old up to 13 year old. I also taught in a few universities. I met plenty of people who claimed they could speak English, from business professionals right through to College lecturers. There is a rather large difference between being taught English, and knowing how to use it. Simply put, these people will have English as a second language on their resumes, but for the most part, the standard is well below whats acceptable in English secondary schools. Throw in the confusion over English and American spelling & pronunciation, and you have a rather large mess. There's also the aspect of some teachers coming over in the 50's teaching English wrong, and now we have whole generations who are learning how to speak incorrectly, simply because they can't admit that the original teachers were wrong. God, saving face is so funny, and frustrating.

For all this talk about people being Bilingual... in practice it doesn't really shape up to reality, especially when the quality of the knowledge is taken into account.

T runner

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Indeed, but it shouldn't really be. I don't personally care what the government thinks.


I would imagine most Gaelscoileanna do (I know my old school ran adult Irish classes in the evenings).

While AFAIK they were reasonably well attended, I think you're being too optimistic in thinking that many parents would necessarily be hugely interested in learning the language themselves.

donegalfella's piano analogy is a good one. It's quite common for a parent to want their child to learn to play piano without having any desire to learn piano themselves.

And, like piano, many who learn it do so for x amount of years and then gradually let their skills fall into disuse, but it doesn't mean it wasn't worth learning it or that they should have spent the time in which they were learning piano learning something else more useful.

But wanting your child to learn Piano would not influence which school your child attends or the language that the schooling is taken in.

A parent of child in gaelscoil would need to be proficient in the language in order to support the childs schooling (e.g homework).

#15

T runner wrote: »

But these parents are sending them to Irish speaking schools in order to have Irish or to benefit from having Irish in the future.

Possibly neither.

There is also the 'foreign' factor. I know a few who send their kids to Gaelscoileanna because there is a smaller chance of their little darlings being in a class with foreigners.

Its not evidence, and I'm not claiming it is representative of anything, I'm just saying

Herbal Deity

T runner wrote: »

A parent of child in gaelscoil would need to be proficient in the language in order to support the childs schooling (e.g homework).

Not really. It would be advantageous. However, I reckon English, Maths and Irish would be the subjects with the most homework given, and a parent would not need Irish to help with the first two, and Irish is taught in English speaking primary schools also.

I'm of the opinion that parents should not be offering a significant amount of help with homework to their children anyway, as it promotes a lazy and unindependent attitude to learning IMO.

#15 wrote: »

Possibly neither.

There is also the 'foreign' factor. I know a few who send their kids to Gaelscoileanna because there is a smaller chance of their little darlings being in a class with foreigners.

Its not evidence, and I'm not claiming it is representative of anything, I'm just saying

There was a thread started here a while ago about this. The idea that this is commonplace was pretty much completely rubbished.

I'm sure there are some people with this mindset, but I wouldn't in any way attribute the resurgance of Gaelscoileanna to it.

The Corinthian

Lost track of this thread...

T runner wrote: »

120,000 pupils use Irish as their Normal Language of Communication for at least one other subject(except Irish).

Plenty of lips service there no?

Is T runner still practising creative accounting on his magical census statistics?

Herbal Deity

He didn't provide a source. It doesn't strike me as being a hugely inacurrate figure, however.

Herbal Deity

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Not really. It would be advantageous. However, I reckon English, Maths and Irish would be the subjects with the most homework given, and a parent would not need Irish to help with the first two, and Irish is taught in English speaking primary schools also.

Strange, cause both from my own distant memories, and my observations of friends children, maths and Irish seem to be the two subjects that children seek help from their parents on. English is straightforward for the most part. But the manner & and subject matter of second level Maths requires external help on occasion.

Its funny from a personal perspective. In school I sucked at maths.. and then I started working and found I was a whiz at numbers..

I'm of the opinion that parents should not be offering a significant amount of help with homework to their children anyway, as it promotes a lazy and unindependent attitude to learning IMO.

Totally disagree. Doing homework with children provides another bond between them. There's too much already that separates children from parents. As for laziness & unindpendent attitude.. they're helping their kids, not doing the homework for them.

Herbal Deity

Deleted User wrote: »

Strange, cause both from my own distant memories, and my observations of friends children, maths and Irish seem to be the two subjects that children seek help from their parents on. English is straightforward for the most part. But the manner & and subject matter of second level Maths requires external help on occasion.

I can't comprehend what you mean here What exactly is "strange" about the post of mine which you quoted? Could you clarify?

I also wasn't talking about second level. At second level students shouldn't really be seeking any assistance from their parents...

Deleted User wrote: »

Totally disagree. Doing homework with children provides another bond between them. There's too much already that separates children from parents. As for laziness & unindpendent attitude.. they're helping their kids, not doing the homework for them.

IMO a parent should be around while their child is doing homework so they can answer the odd question. I don't think they should be sitting down with them and doing homework with them every day, however.

But this is way off topic. So I suggest we agree to disagree for now.

Permabear

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Herbal Deity

donegalfella wrote: »

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You would be opposed to parents who don't have a clue about classical music sending their children for piano lessons? I wouldn't, and wouldn't use the word "inflicting" at all...

Perhaps we simply have ideological differences on education and child rearing...

Herbal Deity

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I can't comprehend what you mean here What exactly is "strange" about the post of mine which you quoted? Could you clarify?

Sorry, i only meant strange cause I have such strong memories of needing and receiving such help.

I also wasn't talking about second level. At second level students shouldn't really be seeking any assistance from their parents...

Again I disagree. Maybe in 6th year, but many of the other years, we're introduced to somewhat difficult concepts. TBH, to this very day, I have seen examples of the questions asked in maths, and still have serious problems working them out. And that's after a decade working in accounts and administration.

IMO a parent should be around while their child is doing homework so they can answer the odd question. I don't think they should be sitting down with them and doing homework with them every day, however.

Well, I guess it was different for me. Both my parents were teachers, and felt that such help was needed to ensure that I was on top form for exams. The extra help added extra pressure/incentive to perform. TBH, I know myself, and without that supervision I would have taken the piss. After all, I did so my first two first years in college. (two different courses)

But this is way off topic. So I suggest we agree to disagree for now.

fair enough.

Permabear

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Herbal Deity

donegalfella wrote: »

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True enough I guess.

Baile an Locha

Long and Interesting thread, To start I'm going to admit my bias to the Irish language front because i speak it daily.
No i don't live in a gaeltacht area nor do I attend a Gaelscoil, my friends have grasped Irish one way or another, be it through Irish courses, TG4 or just Irish as a subject. We all just speak it when we are together. I feel that people both sides of the debate dwell on a mythic stereotype. I speak Irish but I'm not particularly fond of GAA, each to their own. I watch TG4 but I'm not an ultra nationalist. I attend the Oireachtas but I'm not blind to the faults in the teaching of Irish system.
Of course teaching the Irish language is a nationalist ideal, nothing wrong with inspiring pride in our culture, but it doesn't inspire people to say "hmm,well Sinn Fein pay token tributes to the Irish language, i think I'll join them".
Irish should be divided into two sections for the leaving, basic conversational Irish, everyday stuff to appeal to someone apathetic towards the language and Higher Irish for people with a genuine interest in all aspects of the Irish language. It should remain compulsory but it should be majorly tweaked over the coming years. I'll be too old to reap the benefits, I'll be out of the secondary school system by then but it may help the coming generations.
The journalist Manchan O Mangan infuriates me, he is an example of a person who is happy to speak Irish and be little those who don't, he does very little for the language.
The fainne pin (The little ring worn on ones jacket to show they have irish) is an extremely old fashioned idea but it was a good idea.
I have one and when i wear it the odd person will say something about it, i think it should be fazed in sometime in the future.
Anyway Rant over,

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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I assure you Irish parents have now very strong reasons for not raising their children in organised religion and those who do decide to baptise their children would also be able to give you reasons. Irish parents are actually now not typical of parents worldwide-who pass their religion on to their children faithfully, so that was a particularly bad example by you.

The piano example is not relevant: a minor decision. (although parents would have their reasons)

Parents have only decided to start educating their chikdren through the Irish language in large numbers only recently. This ofcourse is a huge decision which will influence which school the child is educated in and which language the child is educated in.
To say that Irish parents dont really understand the reasons for making these huge decisions is preposterous and is more an indicator that you are running out of argument. They understand the reasons well enough.
You have already admitted they would like their children to be fluent, although you since backtracked. They may also realise that having fluent Irish will be of advantage to their child in the future. They may just want to give their child an oppurtunity that they didnt have. Remember we are taking about 33% of all pupils who take more than one subject through Irish.

Heres a post I saw from a parent on the Irish site who had no Irish.

Don't know much about Irish language, therefore please accept my apologies
if any of the questions will sound silly

1. Are there different types of Irish?
2. If so:
a. What are they?
b. What would be the differences?
3. I would like to learn Irish in terms of conversation, writing and grammar. Any suggestions on this?
4. The reason for this is, that my son is going to learn Irish at school. And i really need to be able to help him if he needs any help, or be able at least to check his homework. I would really hate knowing nothing about it.

The government should target this group of parents. If there is no Irish spoken in these houses the language may not stick. If atleast one parent in a house starts to converse with the child you are guaranteed a fluent speaker. This is what the government wants and clearly what the parents of these children want.

Most people also want their children to be good at maths. If magnet schools for maths and science existed in this country (God forbid we should have specialist schools for anything other than Irish) many parents would consider sending their children to them. But most parents will not go out and brush up on their calculus knowledge just so they can help junior get an A in Leaving Cert maths. The majority of parents are quite happy to leave the teaching to the teachers

Come on! The Curriculii can not be taught through the media of Maths and Science! They can only be taught through English and Irish in this country. The majority of parents can and do provide support for their childrens education at home if the child needs it and the teachers do encourage this. Almost every child will need help from time to time, particularly when younger. If the child is in a Gaelscoil then this support must be given through Irish. Again there is ample reasons why these parents would want to speak Irish at home.

Permabear

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T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

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I have explained how the decision of which language and school to educate your child as self-evidently more important than whether a child does music lessons.

This is regardless of which language this is so your conclusion that this is somehow connected to Irish nationalism is preposterous and paranoid.

Do you believe deciding which language/school a child is educated in is more/less important than if they do music lessons or not?

You're quoting a woman who wants to speak Irish only so that she can help her son with his homework. Others may perceive the irony here.

She did not get the chance or choice to speak Irish fluently but she wants to help her son speak Irish fluently.

I don't give a toss about what the government wants. The role of a government is to govern the country, not to encroach upon parental freedom by legislating what languages children should learn.

Education is a fundamental component of the governance of a country.

Magnet schools for children talented in maths and science do exist.

Yes, but other subjects cant be taught through Maths and Science as Irish and English can. Music lessons exist but Geography cant be taught through music can it?

You're jumping to far-fetched conclusions here. I am sure many parents have children doing very well in Irish-language schools, but who don't speak a word of Irish themselves. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that parents, children, and teachers all speak English as a first language.

Im not oblivious to this fact at all. The parents have a right to decide if their children are bilingual/multilingual. What does it matter that the parents first language is English. That is a strange point. My first language is English, am I therefore disbarred from wanting my child to have English and Irish. (with realistically English as the first language)?

A multi linguistic multicultural society is a good thing. You seem to be advocating that people should speak only one language per country.

Permabear

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Herbal Deity

donegalfella wrote: »

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Parents are perfectly entitled to homeschool their children, and I'm not 100% sure, but I reckon there exist some private schools which don't do Irish (and if there don't exist any, I doubt it'd be illegal to start one).

donegalfella wrote: »

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As I said earlier:

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Arguments about time spent on Irish aside (and I agree, too much time is spent on it), I think it's fairly reasonable for a primary education system to consist of the following core subjects:
- One's mother tongue
- Maths
- A language other than one's mother tongue

So French or German might be slightly more useful to certain students, it doesn't mean what we have in place now is horrifically bad or anything.

Let me be the first to say that I don't see mandatory Irish in primary school being silly or counterproductive in the slightest.

thebman

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Parents are perfectly entitled to homeschool their children, and I'm not 100% sure, but I reckon there exist some private schools which don't do Irish (and if there don't exist any, I doubt it'd be illegal to start one).

You need Irish to get into any NUI or IT in the country, maybe not privately owned but the simple reality is the state is so involved in education there are few private choices for parents who don't want their kids to learn Irish and it might not be feasible to send their child to a private school anyway for a number of reasons.

Herbal Deity

Only NUIs, not any IT. UCD, UCC, NUIG, NUIM, RCSI and NCAD being the main ones.

I oppose this personally, but at the same time don't consider it to be a huge injustice.

Learning a language other than one's mother tongue is worthwhile as far as I'm concerned, and the state are as entitled to make it a compulsory part of primary education as they are with maths or english. Sure some parents might want their children to aspire to emigrate or work in an international call centre (:pac:), and a different language might be more beneficial in these cases, but that doesn't mean the curriculum should be altered to accommodate them.

Eliot Rosewater

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Sure some parents might want their children to aspire to emigrate or work in an international call centre (:pac:), and a different language might be more beneficial in these cases, but that doesn't mean the curriculum should be altered to accommodate them.

So instead the curriculum should be made to accommodate those who think Irish should be forced on us all due to some wooly patriotic reasoning?

Whats so wrong with a curriculum that attempts to accommodate as many as possible?

Herbal Deity

Well, I might be wrong, but I think the majority of people in this country like that Irish is taught in primary school.

My point is that Irish offers the same educational benefits as learning any other language other than one's mother tongue, and the benefits of teaching French or German over it are only marginal.

I think if replacing Irish with French was put to referendum, that it would be defeated.

The Corinthian

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

So instead the curriculum should be made to accommodate those who think Irish should be forced on us all due to some wooly patriotic reasoning?

Simply making it compulsory in school has ultimately failed though. The reality is that where it is a requirement for something, people study enough to get through the exam and not to speak the language.

The sad reality is that very few ever use the language again after school, and what cupla focal we have then are lost within a few years. This is not to say that compulsory Irish cannot be part of a comprehensive solution, but as things stand it's just wasting resources as it achieves very little in the longer term because there is little use for the language thereafter.

The Corinthian

Herbal Deity wrote: »

My point is that Irish offers the same educational benefits as learning any other language other than one's mother tongue, and the benefits of teaching French or German over it are only marginal.

I think if replacing Irish with French was put to referendum, that it would be defeated.

Given present emigration figures in Ireland, I would not be so sure of that.

Eliot Rosewater

Herbal Deity wrote: »

the benefits of teaching French or German over it are only marginal.

As if. French and German are some of the most widely spoken languages in Europe. In an increasingly unified Europe our exposure to people who speak these languages is constantly growing, be it because of business or pleasure.

No offense but thats a ridiculous statement.

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I think if replacing Irish with French was put to referendum, that it would be defeated.

Why does everyone have to accept what the majority want? Why cant the apparent few who want their kids learning practicall languages they will actually use outside of school be given the opportunity?