Dublin Bus route planner?

luckat

Is there a bus route planner for Dublin that tells you what buses to get for a journey that needs changes? I can't find anything like that.

The one site I found that claimed to do it offered me a 986-metre (ie nearly a mile!) walk at either end of the route.

loyatemu

luckat wrote: »

986-metre (ie nearly a mile!)

1 mile = 1,609.344 meters

it is however, nearly a kilometre.

KC61

luckat wrote: »

Is there a bus route planner for Dublin that tells you what buses to get for a journey that needs changes? I can't find anything like that.

The one site I found that claimed to do it offered me a 986-metre (ie nearly a mile!) walk at either end of the route.

Not as yet - it is under development for release next year I believe.

What's the journey that you need to do?

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

Not as yet - it is under development for release next year I believe.

That's what they told me two years ago too

What's even more shocking is that Google have already developed a journey planner that lots of cities use and they offer it free of charge. All DB need to do is format the timetables[*] in an acceptable format and upload them to Google. Instead, they're going to waste several years and at least tens of thousands of euros replicating that work and probably not doing it as well.



* Of course, this presumes DB can provide working/staged timetables to Google but that's a prerequisite they're going to stumble on no matter what system they use.

KC61

It is definitely in the pipeline Mark. There is a new network spider map due imminently I believe too, which should be a large step forward in terms of customer information.

Redoing the timetables is not as straightforward as you suggest and will require a fair amount of work. The internal working timetables at present are planned only using either terminus, with the exception of cross-city routes which have city centre approximate times. They have to now be recast on a route-by-route basis based on bus stop locations.

At the moment there is a full network review ongoing, and I understand that we will see the fruits of this in 2010 with redesigned routes and timetables, with a drive to clockface formats, and also I believe intermediate times, with improved information at stops, online and in Head Office.

It is bqasically a full route and branch review of the entire operation following the Deloitte report earlier this year - while we all know that there are an awful lot of shortcomings, I think we do need to hold fire until the results of the review begin to take shape.

luckat

KC61 I need to get to Pearse Street Library (down at the Canal Basin end), from Dame Street or Aston Quay. (The first bus is easy enough - I can get a bus to either of these, or indeed to Dawson Street.)

KC61

OK If you go to Townsend Street, bus stop CS you can take any of the 1, 2, 3, 50, 56A, 77 or 77A.

They are all very frequent.

Ham'nd'egger

KC61 wrote: »

It is definitely in the pipeline Mark. There is a new network spider map due imminently I believe too, which should be a large step forward in terms of customer information.

Redoing the timetables is not as straightforward as you suggest and will require a fair amount of work. The internal working timetables at present are planned only using either terminus, with the exception of cross-city routes which have city centre approximate times. They have to now be recast on a route-by-route basis based on bus stop locations.

At the moment there is a full network review ongoing, and I understand that we will see the fruits of this in 2010 with redesigned routes and timetables, with a drive to clockface formats, and also I believe intermediate times, with improved information at stops, online and in Head Office.

It is bqasically a full route and branch review of the entire operation following the Deloitte report earlier this year - while we all know that there are an awful lot of shortcomings, I think we do need to hold fire until the results of the review begin to take shape.

It may be of worth noting that there is an iPhone App with Dublin Bus info called Dublin Buster. The free version has route maps, stops and timetables of the main services along with LUAS information while it's big brother costs €2.35 and allows you to select buses from one point to another.

luckat

Thank you, that's great - Townsend Street. What's this CS?

loyatemu

KC61 wrote: »

OK If you go to Townsend Street, bus stop CS you can take any of the 1, 2, 3, 50, 56A, 77 or 77A.

They are all very frequent.

By the time you've walked over to Townsend St, you might as well keep walking - the library is not that far down Pearse St: http://tinyurl.com/y8s4eah

KC61

luckat wrote: »

Thank you, that's great - Townsend Street. What's this CS?

All the city centre stops now have two letter identifiers either on a panel clipped to the standard bus stop or on a disc at the top of the new "trueform" style bus stops.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/City-Centre-Bus-Stops/

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/City-Centre-Bus-Stops/Trinity-College-Bus-Stops/

luckat

Do they so, begob? Efficiency almost strikes! Soon (perhaps) we'll have GPS location of buses and all-city routing done from a single central point, with all the little buses beetling along on a virtual map that citizens can actually look at!

Sorry, dropped into a dream state for a moment there.

KC61

luckat wrote: »

Do they so, begob? Efficiency almost strikes! Soon (perhaps) we'll have GPS location of buses and all-city routing done from a single central point, with all the little buses beetling along on a virtual map that citizens can actually look at!

Sorry, dropped into a dream state for a moment there.

The GPS is currently being rolled out on route 123 as a trial before rolling out onto the rest of the network.

luckat

But without *central* routing of all buses from one point, it means nothing.

KC61

I really do think people should wait and see. There have been some improvements this year in terms of information and I think it'll gradually feed through in 2010.

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

I really do think people should wait and see. There have been some improvements this year in terms of information and I think it'll gradually feed through in 2010.

You'll have to excuse our apathy, DB have had years and to fix even minor things that they were completely in control of. Their website and the information on it is terrible (although the recent route maps are helpful when they're accurate), the information on their timetables is atrocious, only one route that I know of (the 104) has a public working timetable at all, the opening hours of their phone line are awful and depots either don't answer the phone (H'town) or can't help because they can't contact the drivers (Ringsend). Their ability to deal with staff issues is unreal (the drivers on the 15 routes regularly skip the end of the route and neither the depot not HQ staff are able to do anything about it), they accept cash on express routes when they should be eliminating it or making it so expensive people buy tickets.

The list is endless. DB needs more than new technology, they need new management. I used to believe DB could change and improve but I haven't seen any of it yet. It's not all bad, my own two buses are reliable and the 27x is great but we need that across the entire network to entice people to use it. The lack of a journey planner is a huge impediment - people shouldn't have to come here and ask you what buses to get

angel01

KC61 wrote: »

It is definitely in the pipeline Mark. There is a new network spider map due imminently I believe too, which should be a large step forward in terms of customer information.

Redoing the timetables is not as straightforward as you suggest and will require a fair amount of work. The internal working timetables at present are planned only using either terminus, with the exception of cross-city routes which have city centre approximate times. They have to now be recast on a route-by-route basis based on bus stop locations.

At the moment there is a full network review ongoing, and I understand that we will see the fruits of this in 2010 with redesigned routes and timetables, with a drive to clockface formats, and also I believe intermediate times, with improved information at stops, online and in Head Office.

It is bqasically a full route and branch review of the entire operation following the Deloitte report earlier this year - while we all know that there are an awful lot of shortcomings, I think we do need to hold fire until the results of the review begin to take shape.

This review that is happening, will they make cutbacks to the routes that are operating or merge routes?

angel01

KC61 wrote: »

I really do think people should wait and see. There have been some improvements this year in terms of information and I think it'll gradually feed through in 2010.

How about you ring HQ and ask for information, they are completely clueless, they want to get you off the phone as quick as possible, take your name, promise to call you back and surprise surprise, you never get a call :rolleyes::(

Victor

luckat, if its any use, the 74/a goes that direction also.

angel01 wrote: »

This review that is happening, will they make cutbacks to the routes that are operating or merge routes?

The general idea to merge sub-routes into solid, consistent, high frequency, direct routes.

angel01

Victor wrote: »

luckat, if its any use, the 74/a goes that direction also.

The general idea to merge sub-routes into solid, consistent, high frequency, direct routes.

Sorry, I don't have that much knowledge about this. What would you count as sub- routes?

KC61

Basically the Deloitte report recommended that each corridor would have a core route that would stick to the corridor itself rather than diverting and taking major detours around estates and which would operate at a high frequency. Examples are the 128, 145, 140 and 151.

Also, where there are several routes grouped along a corridor, they should in so far as possible have co-ordinated regular interval timetables (preferably clockface - i.e. same minutes past each hour).

Alongside that core route there would be other routes that would then deviate. So, for example on the Finglas corridor the 140 is the core route, with the 40/a/d then being the route that deviates around the housing estates.

KC61

angel01 wrote: »

How about you ring HQ and ask for information, they are completely clueless, they want to get you off the phone as quick as possible, take your name, promise to call you back and surprise surprise, you never get a call :rolleyes::(

I really cannot comment on that as I don't work for Dublin Bus. However, I am aware that they have committed to implementing the Deloitte report and I am aware that there is significant work ongoing to do this in 2010.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

You'll have to excuse our apathy, DB have had years and to fix even minor things that they were completely in control of. Their website and the information on it is terrible (although the recent route maps are helpful when they're accurate), the information on their timetables is atrocious, only one route that I know of (the 104) has a public working timetable at all, the opening hours of their phone line are awful and depots either don't answer the phone (H'town) or can't help because they can't contact the drivers (Ringsend). Their ability to deal with staff issues is unreal (the drivers on the 15 routes regularly skip the end of the route and neither the depot not HQ staff are able to do anything about it), they accept cash on express routes when they should be eliminating it or making it so expensive people buy tickets.

The list is endless. DB needs more than new technology, they need new management. I used to believe DB could change and improve but I haven't seen any of it yet. It's not all bad, my own two buses are reliable and the 27x is great but we need that across the entire network to entice people to use it. The lack of a journey planner is a huge impediment - people shouldn't have to come here and ask you what buses to get

No one doubts what you're saying, but until the review following the Deloitte report last year is concluded we'll all have to wait to see what happens.

What I can say is that there have been some improvements - such as the introduction of direct routes such as the 140, 128, 151 and 145. Others have been delayed by DoT. The implementation of the new GPS technology (delayed by DoT) will deliver the basic tools for management to schedule and control the bus service on a daily basis. They will help schedulers prepare reasonably accurate working timetables with intermediate points. Until that is done, any route planner will be relatively useless.

Victor

angel01 wrote: »

Sorry, I don't have that much knowledge about this. What would you count as sub- routes?

Route 40 (Parnell Street to Finglas) was over the years split into the 40, 40a, 40b, 40c & 40d.

These were merged into the 40/a (7 minute peak frequency) and 40d (20 minute frequency).

All the 40 and 40a buses operate to Charlestown and the same route from Parnell Street to the Tolka Bridge, albeit with some peak services diverting through South and West Finglas.

The 40d covers Tyrrelstown and South Finglas.

Overall what it means is a more higher and more consistent frequency with less bunching at much lower cost. Together with this, route 140 was introduced, giving a faster, direct service as far as Leeson Street Bridge.

angel01

Victor wrote: »

Route 40 (Parnell Street to Finglas) was over the years split into the 40, 40a, 40b, 40c & 40d.

These were merged into the 40/a (7 minute peak frequency) and 40d (20 minute frequency).

All the 40 and 40a buses operate to Charlestown and the same route from Parnell Street to the Tolka Bridge, albeit with some peak services diverting through South and West Finglas.

The 40d covers Tyrrelstown and South Finglas.

Overall what it means is a more higher and more consistent frequency with less bunching at much lower cost.

But hasn't the 40D already had serious cutbacks? surely they can't cut that back anymore? Finglas is well covered with lots of choice, less choice for people in Tyrrelstown.

KC61

angel01 wrote: »

But hasn't the 40D already had serious cutbacks? surely they can't cut that back anymore? Finglas is well covered with lots of choice, less choice for people in Tyrrelstown.

No one is suggesting that the 40D will necessarily be cut back further. I don't know. Given it has changed already it's probably unlikely. However, in fairness it was only cut back to every 15 minutes in the peak from every 14 and to every 30 minutes during the off-peak from evey 20. There are other routes that had far greater cutbacks.

The fundamental problem is where you have no co-ordination between bus timetables, such as the 25, 25a, 26, 66/a/b, and 67/a on the Lucan corridor where several buses can leave simultaneously and then there is a long gap. There needs to be co-ordinated schedules on each corridor. Who is to say that the 25A or another Lucan Corridor route should not continue through the city to somewhere else?

The whole design of bus schedules, frequency and routes needs a comprehensive overhaul and that's what I believe is in train if you pardon the pun.

luckat

As a passenger, I think the only thing that will improve Dublin Bus's service is commercial competitors.

If there was a Ryanair-style competitor out there stealing their passengers they'd quickly retain the discipline of their drivers and start serving passengers properly.

I hope some entrepreneur starts a competitive service soon, with lawyers backed up and ready to take on Dublin Bus if they try to drive the new buses out.

armada104

KC61 wrote: »

a full route and branch review

badum-tish!

Victor

angel01 wrote: »

But hasn't the 40D already had serious cutbacks? surely they can't cut that back anymore? Finglas is well covered with lots of choice, less choice for people in Tyrrelstown.

Sorry, I am advocating the recent rationalisation as a good thing and the previous plethora of routes as a less good thing.

40d should stay as it is materially different and is the only route between Finglas and the Blanchardstown industrial estates.

bazzer

Victor wrote: »

40d should stay as it is materially different and is the only route between Finglas and the Blanchardstown industrial estates.

... apart from the 220.

Paulj

Can we expect any more orbital routes such as the one from tallaght to dun laoghaire?

angel01

Paulj wrote: »

Can we expect any more orbital routes such as the one from tallaght to dun laoghaire?

Lol surely by now, Dun Laoghaire have bloody enough routes!!:eek:

Paulj

angel01 wrote: »

Lol surely by now, Dun Laoghaire have bloody enough routes!!:eek:

I'm not suggesting Dun Laoghaire needs more routes, i'm suggesting that the city needs more orbital routes. Currently most routes must go through the city centre.

KC61

In short I don't know - but I imagine that it would be something that would be looked at.

Orbital routes are notoriously difficult to plan as:
1) Individual passenger journeys tend to rarely be the same, unlike radial routes where people tend to be travelling to/from places along the corridor
2) They need to pass through several areas where they will pick up/set down decent loads en route in order to be economically viable

In other words, direct point-to-point orbital routes do not tend to be very successful as loadings are poor. However routes such as the 75 have reasonably strong loadings all along the route as they service a variety of locations that will deliver passengers in reasonable numbers.

markpb

Another problem is that most non-arterial roads in Dublin are relatively narrow so they suffer badly from congestion and there is no space for bus lanes. This makes the bus routes unreliable and useless (103 anyone?)

Cool Mo D

KC61 wrote: »

In short I don't know - but I imagine that it would be something that would be looked at.

Orbital routes are notoriously difficult to plan as:
1) Individual passenger journeys tend to rarely be the same, unlike radial routes where people tend to be travelling to/from places along the corridor
2) They need to pass through several areas where they will pick up/set down decent loads en route in order to be economically viable

In other words, direct point-to-point orbital routes do not tend to be very successful as loadings are poor. However routes such as the 75 have reasonably strong loadings all along the route as they service a variety of locations that will deliver passengers in reasonable numbers.

Maybe some smart alterations to current orbital routes? Like trying to have orbital routes stop by a DART or Luas station wherever possible would help there numbers - for example the 17 goes from Blackrock station to Rialto, but it would be way more useful if it went from Blackrock station, to Rathfarnham, as it does presently, and then head out to the Red Cow Luas stop instead.

No-one likes making changes, especially on Dublin's buses, as they are so infrequent and slow, and orbital routes are going to be used by passengers wanting to change along their route by their nature, so they should run by as many high-frequency routes as possible to help this.

Orbital routes like Blanchardstown to Swords, via the Airport, starting at Clonsilla station and ending at Malahide DART, or Tallaght to Leixlip via Lucan, hitting the Luas, Kildare line and Maynooth line could work, based on a dual function of suburb-suburb journeys, and suburb to train/good bus connection journeys.

markpb

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Orbital routes like Blanchardstown to Swords, via the Airport

I agree with everything you said but you know this isn't a runner, UrBus share part of that route so DB wouldn't get a look in.

I live on the 17a route (Finglas - Ballymun - Coolock - Kilbarrack - HJ&D Dart) and it's *exactly* what an orbital service should be. It doesn't meander into housing estates, it follows a straight line from suburb to suburb. It's reasonably high frequency: 5-6 bph during morning rush hour and 4 bph in the evening rush hour. It serves medium-high density areas, a large industrial estate, two shopping centres, connects with buses on four major arterial routes (N2, Ballymun, N1 and Malahide road) including the airport buses and it terminates close to (but not in for stupid reasons) a Dart station.

Recent work by DCC has removed almost all the congestion problems so it's very reliable most of the time. The only downside is the timetable reduces to 2 bph outside of peak hours which makes it close to useless then.

Paulj

markpb wrote: »

I agree with everything you said but you know this isn't a runner, UrBus share part of that route so DB wouldn't get a look in.

I live on the 17a route (Finglas - Ballymun - Coolock - Kilbarrack - HJ&D Dart) and it's *exactly* what an orbital service should be. It doesn't meander into housing estates, it follows a straight line from suburb to suburb. It's reasonably high frequency: 5-6 bph during morning rush hour and 4 bph in the evening rush hour. It serves medium-high density areas, a large industrial estate, two shopping centres, connects with buses on four major arterial routes (N2, Ballymun, N1 and Malahide road) including the airport buses and it terminates close to (but not in for stupid reasons) a Dart station.

Recent work by DCC has removed almost all the congestion problems so it's very reliable most of the time. The only downside is the timetable reduces to 2 bph outside of peak hours which makes it close to useless then.

This is what i'd like to see. DB identifying viable routes that would have enough passenger numbers to warrent a regular service. Even with 2 buses per hour the main problem is not know when its coming. When/if they introduce the GPS tracking and also bus stops with estimated times at each stop it might make these routes more popular.

KC61

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Maybe some smart alterations to current orbital routes? Like trying to have orbital routes stop by a DART or Luas station wherever possible would help there numbers - for example the 17 goes from Blackrock station to Rialto, but it would be way more useful if it went from Blackrock station, to Rathfarnham, as it does presently, and then head out to the Red Cow Luas stop instead.

No-one likes making changes, especially on Dublin's buses, as they are so infrequent and slow, and orbital routes are going to be used by passengers wanting to change along their route by their nature, so they should run by as many high-frequency routes as possible to help this.

Orbital routes like Blanchardstown to Swords, via the Airport, starting at Clonsilla station and ending at Malahide DART, or Tallaght to Leixlip via Lucan, hitting the Luas, Kildare line and Maynooth line could work, based on a dual function of suburb-suburb journeys, and suburb to train/good bus connection journeys.

So what do you do with the half-full bus loads of people that I see heading east every morning on the 17 as it arrives into Terenure? Are you saying that they should not have a bus service? There are actually sizeable numbers on that section of the route. The 75 links in with the 17 at Rathfarnham to Tallaght.

The 76/a/b and 210 all pass the new Clondalkin/Fonthill station but for some bizarre reason there is no bus stop outside it - this is an opportunity missed.

Blanchardstown to Swords is already there with UrBus so there is no hope of Dublin Bus introducing such a route.

Tallaght to Lucan was tried before (the old 74), but the loads were far from promising (surprisingly enough) if I recall correctly.

The 17a is straghtforward because it the areas it links (Finglas, Ballymun, Santry, Coolock and Kilbarrack) are served by a linear road. There are not so many opportunities to do that on the southside of Dublin, because the main route through South Dublin (the R112 from Foster Avenue through to Ballyfermot) misses some of the main catchment areas. The 17 picks up in good numbers at Clonskeagh, Nutgrove, Rathfarnham, Terenure, and KCR.

KC61

Paulj wrote: »

This is what i'd like to see. DB identifying viable routes that would have enough passenger numbers to warrent a regular service. Even with 2 buses per hour the main problem is not know when its coming. When/if they introduce the GPS tracking and also bus stops with estimated times at each stop it might make these routes more popular.

I think that will be a big step in the right direction.

Cool Mo D

KC61 wrote: »

So what do you do with the half-full bus loads of people that I see heading east every morning on the 17 as it arrives into Terenure? Are you saying that they should not have a bus service? There are actually sizeable numbers on that section of the route. The 75 links in with the 17 at Rathfarnham to Tallaght.

The 76/a/b and 210 all pass the new Clondalkin/Fonthill station but for some bizarre reason there is no bus stop outside it - this is an opportunity missed.

Blanchardstown to Swords is already there with UrBus so there is no hope of Dublin Bus introducing such a route.

Tallaght to Lucan was tried before (the old 74), but the loads were far from promising (surprisingly enough) if I recall correctly.

The 17a is straghtforward because it the areas it links (Finglas, Ballymun, Santry, Coolock and Kilbarrack) are served by a linear road. There are not so many opportunities to do that on the southside of Dublin, because the main route through South Dublin (the R112 from Foster Avenue through to Ballyfermot) misses some of the main catchment areas. The 17 picks up in good numbers at Clonskeagh, Nutgrove, Rathfarnham, Terenure, and KCR.

They could get the Luas red line to the Red Cow, or take the number 50 bus. The 17 at the moment is nearly an orbital service, except where it takes a turn onto the Crumlin road, which already has radial services, and heads towards town half-heartedly, before giving up short. If it linked in with the Red Line near the Long Mile road, it would link much of Tallaght to the south-east suburbs, and provide a decent link for students living in Tallaght to get to UCD, which is badly lacking. Much of the 17 route east of Terenure would remain as is- the 17 dog legs badly on the way from Rialto to Terenure, (which I would like to see changed), so you'd be better of walking to the 65 route anyway. Even changing the 17 to hit the Walkinstown roundabout, then Kylemore Luas would be good.

KC61

I'm not disputing your point regarding Tallaght-UCD connections, but for every journey that you might add there are others that could be discommoded by making the changes.

Two good reasons the 17 goes from Rialto are:
1) It can lay over and turn easily (and this is a practical problem!)
2) It gives a connection to St James' Hospital which is a short walk away

Also in changing bus routes, particularly journey lengths, you do need to look at what the impact on the Peak Vehicle Requirement (PVR) is and also how the driver rosters work out as well.

misslt

KC61 wrote: »

Blanchardstown to Swords is already there with UrBus so there is no hope of Dublin Bus introducing such a route.

I'd love to see a Swords-Blanch Route - The UrBus is so expensive (€5.50 from Swords to Blanch :eek:) and it takes sooooo long.

A DB route here would be great.

Cookie_Monster

Thats less than 10 mins walk in fairness...

KC61

misslt wrote: »

I'd love to see a Swords-Blanch Route - The UrBus is so expensive (€5.50 from Swords to Blanch :eek:) and it takes sooooo long.

A DB route here would be great.

That's because it is not subsidised - that gives you an idea of what the real economic fares might be!

No chance whatsoever of a DB route once Urbus are there already.

luckat

We need black taxis like Derry - a bus-type service produced by the people for the people, rather than imposed from on high.